As I sit here listening to America Includes: "A Horse With No Name", I realized the problem with streaming. Who knows what source material you're getting with streaming? The album I'm listening to is a Warners Brothers green label. Sonics are absolutely incredible! The band sounds like they're in the room!
Navigating the pressings to find the best one can be challenging but that's part of the fun of the hobby. I doubt the same care is taken when generating streaming recordings. You're stuck with what they use, thus missing the incredible texture of the best recordings.
Of course, great care must be taken to set up the turntable and match all components downstream. I find the effort to be well worth it! There's just no substitute for great analog!
@big_greg, I didn’t say that it is easy. Obviously, you know quite the contrary! But as @jerryg123 said, good vinyl, given everything else set up well, "sounds way better through my system as do CDs."
@dadork said he’s getting great hi res. I don’t doubt that. However, you’re still at the mercy of whatever source they used to record it to digital. You just can’t be sure and that’s the point I was making.
@vuchI understand the point you were trying to make and offered a counterpoint. I have over 2,000 records and vinyl is my main source. You can flip your next to last sentence around and say the same thing about vinyl. Especially newer pressings, which are often made from digital masters on inferior vinyl that’s very noisy, warped, etc.
And then there’s trying to find that "perfect" copy. You could buy an old scratched "super nuclear stamper" from someone for hundreds of dollars. You could buy multiple copies of the same record and do your own shootout (which I’ve done a couple of times - very frustrating). You could search the Steve Hoffman forums to find out which is the "grail" version of a certain recording and then pay hundreds of dollars for it on Discogs. Or tap a couple of buttons on your phone or tablet and hear a very good sounding copy of that same recording for a fraction of the cost and get instant gratification.
I have a pretty nice vinyl setup and a lot of times it’s magic but there are just as many times when the streaming (which is also "set up well") is equally amazing.
It’s not a binary equation, both analog and digital have their strengths and weaknesses. Those weaknesses include poor sound quality from either format if they are not well made.
I am totally in with digital. I have a digital preamp/processor. I do not stream. Above all I am a music collector. I prefer owning it. It is a psychological thing. I can say that I truly HATE drop outs which are always a problem with streaming and the internet screws up up here in NH all the time.
As for which format sounds better? It all depends on the mastering. I have probably over 100 duplicate albums in both analog and digital and I AB them all the time. It can go either way. Same thing with reissues. It can go either way. The original is not always better as some want to think.
Funny, the original post started on quality of the pressing and finding the best version, then digressed into analog being so much better which most of the thread followed.
I am 100% digital and find myself grappling with the first problem - finding the best digital version of a recording. Sadly there are few resources to help with this and it seems mostly a crap shoot, but for my money a lot of the original CD releases seem the best. 'Hi-Res' "Remastered" DSD or 196/24 often are not an improvement over the old redbook version, and just as often are far less pleasant to my ears.
Perhaps the underlying reasons for the SQ variability in digital are different, but it seems to me that a lot of it starts and ends in the studio. Still, vinyl or digital - I think that we are all on the same path of finding the best recordings to enjoy.
If you want to miss out that's your business. The artifacts you mention are easily solvable or have their digital equivalents that affect SQ far more adversely.
Let's analyse.
countless electrical, mechanical steps GENERALISATION. NO MORE STEPS THAN DIGITAL
chemical steps WHY SHOULD THE MANUFACTURE OF THE DISCS AFFECT SOUND?
audio compression NONE. COMPRESSION IS A DIGITAL ARTIFACT
RIAA compression to limit the bass groove amplitude IT IS NOT COMPRESSION IT IS ATTENUATION AT ONE END AND AMPLIFICATION AT THE OTHER. EFFECTIVELY MERELY THE APPLICATION OF A POTENTIOMETER LIKE THE ONES ON YOUR AMP
cutting of the master disk IT OCCURS IN REAL TIME AND REPRODUCES THE SIGNAL AS A CURVE, NOT A SERIES OF DISCRETE STEPS AS IN DIGITAL. IT OCCURS IN REAL TIME AND HAS NO CLOCK ERROR OR DITHER THAT ARE THE INCURABLE CONCEPTUAL SCOURGE OF DIGITAL
the wear of the master disk THERE IS VERY LITTLE WEAR. IN MOST APPLICATIONS IT WILL MOTHER AROUND TEN STAMPERS ONLY. THE DAYS OF ELVIS AND THE BEATLES SELLING MILLIONS OF COPIES ARE LONG GONE.
the chemical and heat treatment steps with pressing the disks DEALT WITH ABOVE. IT'S JUST PART OF THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS
the wear of the vinyl, the dust and (micro) scratches ON 99% OF MY DISCS THESE ARE INAUDIBLE. BY THE WAY, IT'S BEST NOT TO EAT OFF YOUR LPS
the shape of the needle SO WHAT??? THE LINE CONTACT PROFILES OF GOOD MC STYLI READ EVEN MORE ACCURATELY THAN THE ORIGINAL SPHERICAL TIPS
player rotation speed error IS ALMOST NON-EXISTENT AND FAR LESS OF A PROBLEM THAN CLOCK ERRORS AND DITHER ON DIGITAL
disk non flatness and non centeredness WHERE THE ERROR IS BIG THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE PRODUCT. THERE AREN'T MANY OFTHEM BUT RETURN OR DISCARD WHEN YOU GET ONE. SMALL AMPLITUDE WARPS OR CENTREING ERRORS ARE INAUDIBLE. THE VERY SHORT LIGHTWEIGHT ARM ON MY AEROARM PARALLEL TRACKER WILL RIDE ALMOST ALL WARPS
arm angle and weight correction JUST SET IT UP CORRECTLY, FOOL
wow, flutter ALMOST NON EXISTENT THESE DAYS AND FAR LESS OF A PROBLEM THAT CLOCK ERROR. INCIDENTALLY THIS IS JUST REPETITION OF ROTATIONAL SPEED ERROR, ABOVE
rumble NON EXISTENT THESE DAYS
translating mechanical movement into a tiny delicate electrical signal HAS BEEN PERFECTED
problem of stereo separation WHAT PROBLEM? 30DB IS PLENTY. IT ACTUALLY REPRESENTS THE LATERAL BLEED OF THE SOUND IN A LIVE SETTING FAR BETTER THAN THE BRICK WALL 90DB SEPARATION IN DIGITAL. STEREO IS ONLY AN APPROXIMATE ALGORITHM OF THE LIVE EVENT WHICH CERTAINLY DOES NOT PRESENT ITSELF AS TWO SEPARATE SIGNALS WITH NO BLEED. IT CAN BE ARGUED THAT MORE CHANNEL SEPARATION GIVE A POORER REPRODUCTION OF THE LIVE EVENT
the need for great amplification I THINK WE'VE PERFECTED AMPLIFIERS BY NOW
introduced noise floor WHAT IS THAT? ALL SOUND REPRODUCTION SYSTEMS HAVE NOISE FLOORS
reversed RIAA correction . SEE ABOVE. THIS IS MERELY THE REVERSAL OF THE ATTENUATION AND AMPLIFICATION PREVIOUSLY APPLIED.
Nope! There is no substitute. I’m of the school of Tom Port, Better Records. I at first thought how can one pressing sound different or better than another? Until I actually tried it for myself. It is true, some pressings are just plain flat, no dynamics, boring etc...the right one is just fantastic. I doubt Tom streams much lol. Don’t get me wrong, I stream now and then, generally when I’m tired or feeling lazy, or just want some stuff playing in back ground. However, any serious listening is done with vinyl.
Back in the day and the start of vinyl LPs in the 1950s and their heyday perhaps in the 60s, at least for us boomer rockers, the recordists, producers and engineers all cared deeply about sound quality. Decca and EMI amongst other produced SQ that has never been equalled IMHO and possibly never will.
The contrast with today is palpable (good use here of that over-used word). The guys today just don't give a damn, they just want to get the product out. That's OK for most youngsters today they don't give a damn either and mostly listen on handphones, tablets and small computers with the whole electronics on a single chip and five inch high plastic speakers.
The title of this thread should have read ’The problem with bad pressings’.
Maybe to some it is ’part of the hobby’, but the mere fact that pressings can be bad and that one has to search for a good one already is reason enough to me to stay far away from vinyl.
And even a good pressing is a bad one. If one considers the countless electrical, mechanical (!) and chemical (!) steps in between the master tape and the signal going into your amplifier ... the audio compression to limit the dynamic range, the RIAA compression to limit the bass groove amplitude, the cutting of the master disk, the wear of the master disk, the chemical and heat treatment steps with pressing the disks, the wear of the vinyl, the dust and (micro) scratches, the shape of the needle, the player rotation speed error, the disk non flatness and non centeredness, the arm angle and weight correction, the wow, flutter and rumble, the process of translating mechanical movement into a tiny delicate electrical signal, the problem of stereo separation, the need for great amplification, the introduced noise floor, the reversed RIAA correction ... it’s even a miracle that any decent sound can be retrieved this way from what once was the master recording.
If the sound is bad, it could be a bad pressing. Or it could be a bad master recording / mixing ... a good pressing won’t make the sound better ... on the contrary.
Streaming includes streaming your ripped CDs. CDs vary by mastering in a similar way to vinyl. The pressing is less important with CD but the mastering is massively significant. Just like the OP hunts out the best vinyl master and pressing, the CD buyer/streamer hunts out the best master. Hence the crazy prices for many Japanese and early CD mastering, before compression ruled the roost. On Roon I will have upto 7 versions of an album to stream, all sounding different as all taken from different masters.
I'm sure if I headed down the streaming avenue, I would not be able to make u-turn. Erstwhile, there is a reason vinyl has enjoyed such a massive resurgence. It just feels good. There are many sensual reasons why we enjoy music. They all don't fit neatly into the "It just sounds better camp". Tactile, visual, pride of ownership and collection, and nostalgia all play a role. I'm sure there are others. While, I respect one's preference to a certain medium of presentation, it doesn't mean that I want to make that journey. I am perfectly content where I am right now. Does that mean that mine is better than yours. By no means, but I am happy. Maybe one day, when I can't see the album art as well, or maybe one day when I can't get up from the couch as easily to flip the LP, then streaming will become more appealing. However, right now I am perfectly happy getting off my couch and interacting with my pride and joy that has taken years to achieve .
In many respects if you have a high quality digital setup with quality digital cables
and high quality musical dac like a good R2R dac in many ways digital is superior to analog turntables the key is doing it right .many turntable guys spend $5-$10k $20 k on their analog matching that in digital reap fantastic rewards .
i have been there,but no longer have the patience in playing one disc at a time When I have a whole library at my disposal and great setup between Roon and QObuz.
High speed tape, a great A to D converter..( actually 2 of them ), a pile of great Ribbons, ….the only thing i didn’t buy was a lathe, but i did get a decent TT. Most of the rudder hard over opinions are not informed by EQUAL investment in format.
I am an old guy who just became hooked on streaming. I use Apple as I am already deep in their infrastructure via phone, computer, iPad, for both myself and my wife.
Recently I put a streamer into my 2 channel setup and the ease of searching and listening to music has been eye opening. I love blues among other things, but being able to search and listen to all the different versions of something like Smokestack Lightenin’ or Statesboro Blues has hooked me. After the original artist , then perhaps the Band that had commercial success and then everyone else’s take on it has me hearing all kinds of new things.
How many people have covered Come on in y My Kitchen, my preference is the Delaney & Bonnie version with Duane Allman on slide.
There are many ways to enjoy this hobby and I am very happy to have discovered this new set of capabilities. I know I am late to the party, but I am 73 and happy to still be at this party! Happy Listening to ALL
Been 'streaming' more or less since the early '00's, so it about time y'all got up 'n out 'n about. *s*
Lived in an apt. complex that was proud to be attached to a T1 line, due to a software co. half-mile north of us. Place crawled with day-traders and on-line gamers, up @ weird hours....
There was a music server that had a huge catalog, large enough to get shut down by 'the authorities'.....everyone took it as a badge of dis-honor with a 😏....
When somebody is into analog and they rant about how digital doesn’t sound as good as analog, it’s normally due to a weak digital setup and/or not listening to the best format in digital (redbook, dsd, MQA, hi-res). I stopped reading any review of digital equipment when Fremer does it because he is so biased and he compares at $250,000 analog setup to a $3000 dac.
I used to be into analog up until a couple years ago. When I setup a quality digital system and use hi-res/dsd/MQA music, I much prefer digital and sold my $15k analog setup and my $5k preamp that I didn’t need any longer.
The other reason I left the analog world beside of the SQ, was that most of the new music I listen to doesn’t come on vinyl (jazz, new age, blues, progressive rock). That’s on top of all the headache associated with keeping vinyl clean, living with the clicks and pops, and if I wanted to create a playlist of 50 different songs from 50 different albums, something you can’t do with vinyl.
As for playing cds, over 15 years ago it was proven that cds sound better after being ripped to a hard drive, I agree and sold my $3000 CD player back in 2006.
The op is correct though, you can take different analog albums or different cd releases and 1 of them can sound much better than the other release. I experienced this many times using vinyl too, and I hear it in digital too.
Qobuz and Tidal catalogs often include many album versions. When I stream with Roon as my interface it’s easy to tap the “version” icon and select from the available choices. You have to look elsewhere to see which versions were the best. The data in Roon doesn’t go that far. But there is so much more music when you stream. I find new, good, music daily.
I was into high end vinyl for many years. What I found and what I still believe to be true is that to get the best of what analog can give you it takes an incredible ongoing commitment of serious $$$ to set up and a lot of effort trying to keep every album in top condition. Along with that is the physical space it requires for not only the turntable setup, but a record cleaning machine (if you're really dedicated), storage for albums, consideration for temperature and humidity and on and on to some place in infinity.
I have taken the streaming plunge and am having more fun with the hobby than at any time in recent memory. Not only that, but with the amazing results I'm getting without having to 'sell the farm', causes me to start to question just what it is that's keeping audiophiles going on the analog front. I honestly don't think it's a quality difference anymore. It may be some perception that's mutually reinforced by others blindly following the same path.
I mean just check out what the album selection is versus what's at your fingertips on TIDAL or any of the other Hi-Rez services.
But if you must keep the album around for that one or two songs that you have to go to great lengths to hear and degrades each time you play it...then Carry On my Wayward Son, but there may not be too much peace when you are done.
The fantastic fidelity you are experiencing with streaming is mine as well. At times the streaming version exceeds the sound quality I get from my excellent analog rig. But you are correct about the version being offered. Since streaming is in its infancy I am sure over time catalogs within services will become more robust with various versions and extended information available. Right now services are trying to build the biggest… some the most high Rez (Qobuz) best sounding libraries. It will come.
,On the other hand once I got used to streaming my world of music expanded so far beyond my 2,000 vinyl and 2,000 CDs that honestly if one album doesn’t have the very best ever mastering… I’ll just go on to ten other albums. Once in a while I’ll find some album and buy a heavy vinyl recording of it… although the last time I did this the streamed version sounded better… actually the last two.
@big_greg, I didn't say that it is easy. Obviously, you know quite the contrary! But as @jerryg123said, good vinyl, given everything else set up well, "sounds way better through my system as do CDs."
I did a shoot-out last night between a German pressing of CSNY Deja vu and a 1970 US Presswell pressing. A buddy dropped off the German pressing, they have a reputation of being very good. The German pressing sounded compressed compared to my US copy. Then I looked at the dead wax. There was almost twice as much dead wax in the German press than the US pressing. Had I not played them I wouldn't have needed to consult the matrix numbers to predict which one would sound better.
@dadork said he's getting great hi res. I don't doubt that. However, you're still at the mercy of whatever source they used to record it to digital. You just can't be sure and that's the point I was making.
Music sounds great when you're listening to it but, when you have something to compare it to you can really determine which sounds better or worse.
Perhaps someday I'll decide to pursue a dedicated streaming setup? Currently, If it isn't vinyl, I'm warming up the vintage tube tuner and letting the NPR classical station play.
I know I have a a decent stream set up in my Bel Canto DAV 2,7 and BC e Stream as well as Simaudio and DCS gear in my house but I prefer vinyl for serious meditative listening.
Just my preference and It sounds way better through my system as do CD’s
Digging through used records and searching dis cogs is part of the fun, the hunt, looking for that rare find and the personal satisfaction of owning that piece of music. Something you will never get with streaming.
Your choice do not tell me that there is something wrong with my system. Works great! Listening to WFMT, Chicago on Roon right now, quite lovely and Radio Paradise is nice too.
I know what you're saying. It's so much easier to paw through used records at the record store and try to read the matrix and look it up on Discogs on your phone and then read all the comments and ratings about that release to make sure you know what pressing you have and how good it is before you listen to it.
If you can't enjoy streaming sound quality for serious listening sessions something wrong with streaming setup, or have serious case of audiophilia in that you can only enjoy the very best recordings (say hot stampers) played on the best tt with the best cartridge with the best phono stage.
While I consider myself an audiophile, my system, and ability to accept less than best sound quality from various sources and recordings gives me great pleasure! I can turn off the analytical mind and simply enjoy the music.
@vuch - I agree, Rickie Lee Jones - S/T is a fantastic album and I'm glad I still have my original 1979 version that's in excellent condition. Don't know how it made it through college in that condition, but glad it did.
Anyway, that kinda enforces my point. I heard "Chuck E.'s in Love" on the radio in 1979 and bought the album. My source for discovery in those days was AOR radio stations and independent radio stations. There are, unfortunately, very few of those around today. Streaming digital, from sources such as Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, Radio Paradise, YouTube, etc., are my sources for discovery today. When I hear something I really like, I go to discogs and look for the best version available on vinyl and I buy it. But I don't buy everything I hear and like. I've found many great songs, but when I've streamed the album, I found I only liked the one song. In that case, I passed on buying the album and just add the song to one of my streaming playlists. Saved a lot of money that I can spend on more worthy records.
@reubent, That Rickie Lee Jones is one of the albums that make vinyl worthwhile! Unbelievable sonics on the US pressing! Avoid the Brazil pressing. I played RLJ Pirates tonight and it’s also recorded extremely well!
I listened to a couple of Doobie Brothers albums tonight that blew me away with their sonics.
Some albums are done so well, it’s truly amazing!
I listen to new music on YouTube. I also have a local group of audiophile friends who turn all of us on to new music. Facebook groups are another source.
I love vinyl. Playing my original 1979 Rickie Lee Jones - S/T right now. However! You will never discover new music by thumbing through the records on you rack. Well, that is unless you find something that you bought, previously unheard, and forgot you bought it and deposited it on said rack shelf.
Streaming opens up the possibility for music discover that was previously unavailable to anyone. You have practically everything ever recorded (a slight exaggeration) at your fingertips. Yes, it's a different experience. However, it is a worthwhile experience. And the beauty is, you are welcome to buy the vinyl of anything you discover (if it's available on vinyl).
I've adopted this hybrid streaming/vinyl model and I've discovered a lot of great music via streaming, and increased the size of my record collection with newly discovered material.
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