Nandric, I understand that the Transfiguration Orpheus uses a different MC mechanism than the two described above.
The 'tube-transistor' enigma by MC carts?
By accident I got to know an guy from Swizerland who has
worked for years as technician (R&D,testing,manuf.etc) by
Benz. I made some joke about 'Zelle',the expresion he used
to refer to carts,by asking if the carts are made by
prisoners? ('zelle' is 'the box' in the prison) He appreciated my joke and explaned to me in 2 sentences
something I never thought about. There are 2 kinds of
'bobins': iron and the other kind. The 'classical example'
of 'iron' is the Ortofon SPU. The advantage: stronger signal and some kind of 'pleasing warm sound.the disadvantage:(more)distortion.
The 'ruby-cross' bobin has (much?) less distortion but can
sound 'thin' depending on the rest of 'the chain'.
This is obviously the so-called 'Holistic' approach ;
aka Rauls 'it depends...'. Me? Because I can't cope with
more then 2 variables at the same time I am for 'simplicity' approch. The best 'definition' of this
approch is from O.Wilde:'I have the simplest tastes. I am
alwys satisfid with the best'. So I am still seaching.
Raul will you please bring (more) light to this issue?
Cheers
worked for years as technician (R&D,testing,manuf.etc) by
Benz. I made some joke about 'Zelle',the expresion he used
to refer to carts,by asking if the carts are made by
prisoners? ('zelle' is 'the box' in the prison) He appreciated my joke and explaned to me in 2 sentences
something I never thought about. There are 2 kinds of
'bobins': iron and the other kind. The 'classical example'
of 'iron' is the Ortofon SPU. The advantage: stronger signal and some kind of 'pleasing warm sound.the disadvantage:(more)distortion.
The 'ruby-cross' bobin has (much?) less distortion but can
sound 'thin' depending on the rest of 'the chain'.
This is obviously the so-called 'Holistic' approach ;
aka Rauls 'it depends...'. Me? Because I can't cope with
more then 2 variables at the same time I am for 'simplicity' approch. The best 'definition' of this
approch is from O.Wilde:'I have the simplest tastes. I am
alwys satisfid with the best'. So I am still seaching.
Raul will you please bring (more) light to this issue?
Cheers
35 responses Add your response
If you look at allnicaudio.com in the products section under mc cartridge,they have an explanation of bobbin,coil etc.Naturally they say their shape (mimics the cutter head,non magnetic) is of course the best.At any rate you don't need to be a technical guy to understand this well laid out informative explanation.I have not heard their cartridge,but am thankful for their informative presentation. |
Atmasphere.My conjecture was 'iron bobbin' =the analogy with 'tube-amps' because of the distortions with 'pleasing sound'.Those are 'harmonic distortions' but I am not sure of which 'order'. The other kind of bobbins are more 'neutral sounding' because of 'lesser distortions'. Aka the analogy with 'transistors amps'.Look at the mesurements of distortions by both kind of amps.If I am well informed the peculiarity of Orpheus is not the 'bobbin' but the magnets: two 'circular magnets';one in front the other behind the bobbin.So my quess is that you confused 'bobbin'- with 'magnet kind'. But the issue is 'tube-versus transistor' enigma by MC carts.My quess is that the persons with preference for 'neutral sound' will not choose 'iron bobbin' MC carts. I am informed by my Zwitserland connection that Benz also manuf. 'iron-bobbin' carts:the MC-2.BTW I made the distinction 'iron' versus 'other kind of bobbins' (i.e. not iron).So if your Orpheus is 'round','right angled' or 'cross-shaped' is not relevant; it is included by the 'other kind'. I understand the fixation for the object of 'our desire' but the issue is about something else. Cheers |
Dear Nandric: I can't understand in a precise way what you mean by cartridge " iron bobins ". Perhaps you are reffering to the cartridge armature where the coils goes on. There are different type ( like you say ) bobins like cross-shaped, v-shaped, square-shaped, etc, etc. Fron the point of view by some cartridge builders the non-magnetic/non-conductive cartridge armature build material is more linear, example: Ortofon in its top of the line MC cartridges use carbon-fiber material. IMHO a cartridge quality performance depend on many design factors and the execution quality on the design, I think that there is no single/aisle cartridge design factor that could define the whole cartridge quality performance but the " wise " choice/synergy of all cartridge factors in the final design/build product. +++++ " The advantage: stronger signal and some kind of 'pleasing warm sound.the disadvantage:(more)distortion. " +++++ if that is true that is a trade-off like almost always in any audio item design, which cartridge trade-offs design/build are the best?, well which quality cartridge performance do you like more. Now, IMHO I think that other than a direct cartridge builder ( like Dynavector or Scan-Tech ) the right person in this analog forum to give us an in deep explanation on the subject is JCarr, I hope he can share its knowledge with all of us. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Raul.I hate the 'semantical chatter' but the Swiss used 'platchen' to refer to the 'thing'.The matter is even more complicated because Swiss-German is not 'the same' as the German-German (see'Zelle'= cart versus 'Tonabnehmer'= cart in German). The 'platchen' should be a kind of 'disc' in English but I thought that 'bobbin' is an known technical term so I translated as such. As Casey stated the issue is 'very simple';one need only to look at allnicaudio.com to see 'the light' and,I assume ,not make a fool of hemself.Maybe I already deed by asking stupid question. There is nobody I know of who knows more about carts then you so for me it was 'natural' to ask Raul. J.Carr is the right person but Mr.Carr must 'care' about the so-called 'intellectual property rights' because he is designer-developer for Scan-Tech. But if he wish to be so kind then, of course ,gladly. BTW there is something 'secretive' by the producers about the,say,'amalgam'(alloy) that they use for the 'bobbin'. Kind regards, Nandric |
Nandric, I suspect the comparison of different cartridge construction to tube vs solid state is likely a red herring. Tube phono sections do not have to have higher distortion, and some transistor phono sections OTOH can have quite high distortion. There there is also the question of what distortion is important to the ear and what is not. Research has shown that all humans detect distortions in the same way- but that is a topic for another thread. In phono cartridges, you are also faced with loading issues, and the ability of the tone arm to allow the cartridge to track. These variables play a huge role in the resulting sound you get- Raul is absolutely right as well about the design tradeoffs that a cartridge designer faces, along with the execution. It is not something that can be so cut and dried. |
Dear Raul.We are waiting for J.Carr but I made some investigation in between.There is obviously the problem of the language we use to describe 'sound' so no wonder the musician invented they own notation (Pearson also mention this problem and trys some Chinise metaphors). Despite of this we are aiming,it seems to me,at 'the same' goal. Your description was: 'more linearity' my was 'more neutrality'. But I attributed this,say, 'quality' to the 'not-iron bobbins'. Not I but the Swiss guy (from Benz) stated that Ortofons SPU is a'classic example' of 'iron-bobbin'construction. I knew that there are persons who will kill,so to speak, for this cart but also that the majority don't care about this cart.But I had no idea why. So the information from the Swiss 'lightened' something in my brain. 'Spying' is also 'a form' of investigation so I deed some 'spy- work' at your cart-collection.Alas nobody will pay me on 'cent' for my effort. One 'second alas' is the fact that I deed not see SPU of any(Ortofon) kind there. So my quess is:someone with such an collection can unlikely have forget or miss such one 'item'. So my second quess is:there is something about the SPU that Raul don't like(?). BTW there is one 'special' about the SPU on our forum. About the SPU I will quote two statements: a.'unusualy high output and a soft IRON circuit with high saturation'; b. SPU Synergy versus Jubilee. SPU 'more weight&solidity but not the air of the Jubilee. You mentioned Ortofon in the context of 'bobbin kinds'and you named 'armature' and 'carbon-fiber' as ,I assume,the material of which the 'bobbin' is made. HI-FInews (from UK) has payd a visit to Ortofon as a kind of introduction for the review of Windfeld (Dec.2007). The information:80% are MM carts. The MC carts are produced by special 'force' with the ability to 'wind' with accuracy the wire on the 'bobbins'. The 'top' carts are an fraction of the production and SPU is a small part of MC carts. I don't know if you know that Windfeld has the same diamond as your 7500: Replicant 100. Windfeld is 'basicaly' Jubilee with some mod. As mentioned the Replicant (more extension in both 'extremes')and some small mod. to the 'bobbin' so that the coils (copper-gold alloy) should be more precise wound. The result:0.2 dB channel sep. and Fre.20-20000 +/_ 1dB. So there is still progress in the 'art'. Cheers |
Dear Nandric: Yes, fortunately there is progress. SPU: many years ago I owned and change it for other cartridges that ( in that time ) like me more. Last year I had two SPU experiences ( unfortunately not in my system ) and I can't find nothing that motivate to go for it. To be fair about maybe it is time to try a listen in my system, yes why not. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Atmaspere. Very strange that the answer to my conjecture should come 'throug' me. The Swiss guy (R)was acquaintance but became a friend so I 'abused' this to ask more questions. Before stating the aruments I can say in advance that we all (Raul includes)are right but for different reasons. My conjecture about 'tube-transistor' regarding the 'harmonic distortions' is correct. But the distortions from 'iron-bobbin' are much less then from tube-amps (caused by outputtransformers). You are right regarding 'your variables' and Raul regarding the 'complexity' aswell the personal preferences ( an constant ,it seems to me,in hes arguments). Your mentioning about our 'hearing' is an enigma to me: those are phisical events and of course we hear 'the same'. But we must 'interpret' what we are hearing and then we may have different preferences (see Raul about SPU from Ortofon). So,for example, Van den Hul is 'tuning' hes carts to the customers preferences. I.e. one can order by hem what one like. The Swiss is,as I mentioned befor, for 'it depends ... approach. I was wrong to suppose some kind of 'objective facts' behind our preferences. Cheers |
Dear Lewn, The Ortofon Windfeld has a channelbalance better then '0.2 dB';the Jubilee better then '1dB'. The 'typographical error' as you expressed it is even more awful it is an 'category error'. I was quoting from HI-FI news and was careless. What am I trying to write? To answer this question I need a two 'channel separation'. One is the 'story' about the 'bobbin-kinds' from the Swiss that I translated from German. The other is the 'story' from Johanssen,the designer of Windfeld,about the progres from Jubilee to Windfeld.The bobbin modification from Jubile made an pricise 'winding' of the coil for the Windfeld; as the result (0.2dB) shows. So this 'channel' leeds to the importance of the 'bobbin' and that was the subject matter. So were we are now? There was an 'embarrassing question' and then a difficult one. The third is fortunately the easy one. Yes I am familiar with both. I own the Jubilee and an friend the Windfeld. The Windfeld is a better cart but is also nearly 3x more expensive (in Europe). I dont belive that Windfeld is 'twice' as good. We in the Netherlans have then,I think,an better choice: Van den Hul is 'next door' (Holland is a small contry) and one gets 'no worry' proposition: retiping,mods.,etc. Van den Hul is very kind for hes customers.Compere this with sending your $12.000 Koetsu to Japan,for example. Regards - |
Raul indicates "bobbin" is synonymous with "armature", just different terms for the "thing" they wind the coil-wire around. Is "core" another synonym? I ask because there is also the "air core" design, where the coil-wire is wound around — nothing. Thus there is no interaction between the different materials, hysteresis, or "magnetization" of an iron core. As it was explained to me, the "air core" is wound around something of course, it must be. They use — Ice. The wire is wound around a sliver of ice of the right shape, which then melts away, leaving no core/bobbin/armature at all. Hence "air core". This must be done in a deep-freezer, of the walk-in kind.Fidelity Research used this method in some of their models, as it was explained to me by a FR aficionado I knew many years ago. Maybe he was wrong, maybe nuts — but my FR MC-201 advertises its air-core as a feature that offers lighter moving mass and lack of the interactions mentioned above. Do any of you know more about this? I’d like to think he wasn’t crazy. I bought several FR cartridges from him, because of their sound of course, not the ice-theory. |
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@bimasta Here is some info translated from Japanese about Air Core Coil of Fidelity-Research PMC-3 : " Air core coil is adopted as coil, weighing is realized compared to ordinary coil part made of magnetic material as core material, and magnetostriction caused by hysteresis curve of core material is expelled. In addition, by adopting a new special lightweight resin coil bobbin, the total weight of the oscillator is reduced to about 1/3, and the tracking ability is improved.... Samarium cobalt magnet is adopted as a magnetic circuit. This material has an ideal characteristic that it has higher holding power compared with ordinary Alnico type and it is hard to self-demagnetize. Moreover, the yoke part can also be downsized, the cartridge’s own weight is drastically reduced, and the initial characteristics can be kept for a long time.... Precision cutting is applied to the yoke to make the entire magnetic circuit close to a circular shape. As a result, effective magnetic path length can be shortened, size can be reduced, and magnetic flux leakage at the corner portion is reduced to achieve high efficiency.... A 0.04 mm diameter net flow line is adopted as the coil. " |
@chakster — Thanks, I think I have that text in the booklet that came with it. But a question... " Air core coil is adopted as coil.... In addition, by adopting a new special lightweight resin coil bobbin...It seems "core" and "bobbin" are different things. I thought both referred refer to whatever the wire is wound around, i.e. a single thing — apparently not. So now I don’t know what an "air" core is. Can someone educate me, and explain the difference between core, bobbin, armature? @lewm — More resistance would lower the output, yes? But we’re dealing with low output anyway. Would it have any other significant effects? |
I was stunned to see that this was/is my own thread. From 2009! I also had difficulty to recognize my own English. Well the expression ''CORE-LESS'' may give the right direction for our thoughts. ''Iron-core'' in the ''coil-former'' is used , like by cheap inductors , to increase the cart output. As Lew put it ''less coil wire'' is then needed reducing the moving mass. Lukatatschek, the owner&designer by Benz , stated ''I don't like iron'' anywhere in the signal path and use ruby plate to wind coils on. But his LP S (or mr.) has + 40 Ohms impedance ''suggesting'' much (more) wire. Mori san invented ''8 form coil-former'' for his series XL Sony MC's. Those coils are also ''core-less'' but the whole series, like Benz, has +40 Ohms impedance ''implicating'' more wire. Ergo: those LOMC''s with output around 0,2 mV or less are ''core-less'' with little wire and with low impedance. |
Addition, I don't know why exactly Lukatschek dislike ''iron'' (core) but he stated '' I don't like iron anywhere in the signal path'' (see above). I now remember his comment on Fremer's review of his LP s. He blamed Fremer for using SUT by his listening tests. One can see this as one more argument against SUT's ( see Raul) but he used more wire for the coils to get output at an ''reasonable level'' of 3.6 mV. That is to say that one can avoid SUT's with this kind of output. I have no idea if SUT's can be made without iron core . I am very fond with my Denon AU-S1 and don't believe that this SUT uses any iron. But I also know that ''believing'' is not an strong argument. |
Last month i have opened my headamp designed by Nakatsuka-San. The reason to unscrew it was expired batteries. It was a first time when i saw input resistors like that. Those resistors looks like an MC cartridge coil and made by winding the wire to a coil that has no inductance in a special process. Those resistors made by ZYX to transfer the output signals with no noise and no inductance at all. They are made of pure coil wire of MC cartridges, cryogenically purified. Signal from LOMC cartridge should go into ZYX CPP-1 Headamp’s resistor wihtout any influences from resistor noise and inductance. Nakatsuka-San decided to use his own resistors made of pure copper wire, same material as a copper wire of MC carts. In order to playback the sound info of LOMC carts in 100% fidelity, CPP-1 headamp has special circuit in the simplest amplification circuit. Great device to avoid SUT ! |
Dear chakster, ''Great device to avoid SUT'' is obviously meant to ''belittle'' your Slavic brother. But if I am well informed you just bought some cheap Italian phono-pre dismissing this way your technical praise about ZYX CPP-1. The other possible reason is your effort to sell this ZYX to me. I am sorry but I am happy with my Basis Exclusive as well with my Klyne 7PX 3.5 + Denon AU-S1. |
it’s nice to run into somebody with an FRMC201. I have had one for a while when I picked it up on a curiosity. I absolutely love it.Likewise, Analogluvr. I got my first 201 at an "Audio Swap Meet" near Los Angeles in the mid-90s. I knew nothing about it and only went out of curiosity and proximity. Turned out to be a famous event, not just to buy or sell, but to network with audiophiles worldwide. I met dealers from Japan, Korea, Russia, UK, Germany, Italy etc. They not only paid airfares and hotels to be there, but shipped lots of amazing gear halfway round the world. for a one-day event. Everywhere I looked there was something I wanted. Then Ebay arrived, and the swap meets ended. End of an era — when ’progress’ means an end to all human contact, I question the word... That 201 was used but quite good condition. and sold for next to nothing. A year later I got one NOS NIB at an even lower price, one of those rare unbelievable scores. I still have it, unused, for future use. It’s not the ’greatest’ MC by any means, but has a wonderfully holistic way with music; a Fidelity Research hallmark I believe, judging from other FR models I’ve had. |
@nandric No, ZYX CPP-1 is a keeper, i like it a lot with some of the MC cartridges, particulary with my Klipsch MCZ. I thought someone can comment about ZYX unique input resistors made of a cartridge coil wire. It's a know how. I think it's a compliment to a LOMC cartridge to amplify signal like that. It's like external cartridge coil with more wire not inside the cartridge, but outside the cartridge in a separate box. |
@nandric — A poem? From a mutli-leveled literary stylist like you, that’s high praise! @analogluvr — One brief vignette how cool that meet was. I approached a table laden with goodies. I saw a clear plastic bag stuffed with, bursting with, cartridge-mounting nuts, bolts, washers, gold cartridge clips, 1000s of them, for $3. My hand was an inch away from it when my eye caught something less than a foot away — still-sealed new Shure V15 IV-MR for $40. "You're Next!" I thought as I turned back to the $3 bag – but someone was buying it. Too late! I reached for the Shure and someone was buying it too. Damn! "But I saw it first!" didn’t work there, I didn’t bother trying. Two great things lost in half a second. Never again! I moved to the next table ready to pounce... |
Chakster, To create a "resistor" using copper wire is folly, don't you think? Even fine copper wire has very low resistance per foot, because it is.... a great conductor. You'd need miles of good copper wire to create a 47K ohm resistance, for example. I suspect there is some other kind of wire used in there, like nichrome, which is popular for resistors because it is a bad conductor. As to the lack of inductance, there are very fine non-inductive wirewound resistors, made by Mills and probably others. But even those are not totally without inductance; the wire is wound so as to minimize inductance, but I think there will always be a tiny amount of inductance in any wirewound resistor. I looked it up for fun: 1000 feet of 30 gauge solid core copper wire has a resistance of about 100 ohms. So you'd need ~470,000 feet of it to create a 47K ohm resistor. I don't think that would fit into the ZYX chassis. |
@lewm you are welcome to argue with ZYX, but first look the my picture of this device and its input resistors which looks like a coil, i hope you know how thin is a coil wire of ZYX MC cartridge? The technical advantages stated in the manual and this is when i got my information from. It’s 0.035mm/Cryo (6N Crystallized Copper Wire). They call it "ideal coil wire made for the first time in the world. it has been developed for ZYX by both a wire manufacturer and a processing company of cryogenic treatment in 2002. The wire consists of pure crystals of copper, and that are systematically aligned." CPP-1 Technical Data: Input Impedance: 125 ohm Step up ratio: 26dB Signal-to-Noise ratio: more than 95dB THD: lower than 0.1% (1kHz) Frequency Response: 1Hz - 1MkHz (+/- 1dB: 2Hz - 500kHz) Channel Balance: lower than 0.01dB (1kHz) Channel Separation: more than 100dB (1kHz) Battery: 9 pcs of KR-1100AAu (1.2V 1100mAh) Power: 0.8W |
@chakster Just so you know, 6Nines copper wire does not exist. The best anyone has done is 5Nines and that claim seems highly suspect! Another way to look at this is the wire might be extruded from 6Nines copper, but once extruded it won't be 6N anymore. Copper, when unoxidized, has a silvery appearance. When it has a copper color its been slightly oxidized. The devices at the input of your preamp appear to be coils, not resistors. They are there to suppress RFI at the input; they are in series with the input signal, not in parallel. You can see this if you follow the traces on the board, which are pretty visible in the photo. A better photo of them would reveal more information, but at the present moment that's how it looks. The low input impedance suggests that a coil could be wound to be a resistor, but one would have to be careful to control inductance, as a high inductance in parallel with the input would be disastrous! It would cause the normal resonance at the input to be lowered in frequency, and perhaps pretty dramatically. We uses non-inductive devices for precisely this reason. |
@atmasphere Just so you know, 6Nines copper wire does not exist. The best anyone has done is 5Nines and that claim seems highly suspect! There you go: 6N Copper: https://www.americanelements.com/6n-999999-copper-metal-7440-50-8 ZYX Coil Wire type is 6N OFC Crystal Copper φ 0.035mm : http://www.zyx-audio.com/products_mc_ultimate_series_dynamic.html ZYX CPP-1: http://www.zyx-audio.com/products_phonoamps_cpp1.html It would cause the normal resonance at the input to be lowered in frequency, and perhaps pretty dramatically. We uses non-inductive devices for precisely this reason. From my manual of ZYX CPP-1: "The resistors is made by winding the wire to a coil that has no inductance in a special process. Then our resistor can transfer the output signals with no noise and NO INDUCTANCE at all. " The best anyone has done is 5Nines and that claim seems highly suspect! Ortofon made 8N copper wire for the coil of SPU Spirit Limited Edition model (only 500 made), you can download manual to make sure (i’ve owned this cartridge): https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ortofon/spu-spirit.shtml |
@chakster I stand corrected; thanks for posting that link. I've had more than one metallurgist tell me that while 6Ns metals exist, the wire from them isn't actually 6Ns, although it gets called that. Since I do EE work, I went with their expertise. Mills offers non-inductive wirewound resistors, but we found them prone to noise pickup due to their size, which is similar to the parts in your preamp. The 'special process' is winding the wire back against itself so that inductance cancels. The odd thing here is that you can see the presence of traces on the bottom side of the circuit board, and it appears that the coil/resistor devices are in series with the signal rather than parallel. |
