hmm....I know I'm not a speaker salesman.
B&W owners probably feel like alot of Krell owners. Both products garner alot of poor opinions from alot of Agon members.
As I said above, I enjoyed my B&Ws - I Just like the Tylers that much more. No Matter what others say about Krell - I also like my Krell amp too. Do I feel insecure about it? No. Like Tickfight said - it's how I hear things. I like what I hear now, more than i did before.
Stop worrying about how these threads go. Enjoy your equipment. Try other things. Who knows - you may find that you like other pieces of gear/speakers better too..
Then again - i like my Krell amp - so what do i know?
:-) |
I don't think there is such a thing as a noncolored opinion. We all hear in our own way: Sometimes with our ears, sometimes with our pocketbook, sometimes through reviewers words, sometimes through advertising and the list of influences goes on. It ultimately boils down to what your satisfied with.
In regard to business, it's a free market. B&W owners/dealers/fans are free to post here, or anywhere else. That being the case, it raises the question why the B&W posters seem to be less in this thread. Is it 1)an oversight 2) too busy listening to their speakers to post or 3)a throwing in of the towel?
Regardless, this lack of B&W presence does undoubtably make this thread look Tyler heavy. Can't tell what the B&W dealers/owners/fans believe but from what Advent says "Ty" believes in his product and his satisfied customers appear to believe in him.
Seems like, what Jkalman is saying is perhaps the Tyler owners should not post as much because, at least in this thread, B&W is not faring as well as he thinks they deserve. Since B&W has won many awards, then surely anyone here saying Tylers are better must be dealers or have "vested interests."
Not sure if I buy this line of thinking as we ALL have colored opinons but to each his own. I for one am not a speaker salesman- perhapse not all the posters here can say the same. Just curious Jkalman can you? |
Advent now there are some great speakers! |
Jkalman - For what it's worth, if there's one thing that Ty can do better, it's more sophisticated marketing. ;-) Seriously, he just doesn't think that way at all. And to try and influence a thread like this is totally out of character for him.
I've spent a couple of long afternoons at his place and we've talked at shows and elsewhere, so I know him a bit. He is just as laid back and unassuming as you could ever want. He believes in his product, but he figures it's up to you to decide if they're right for you. His wife is really nice too.
I've been trying to encourage him to step up his marketing efforts (I'm in the business), but he's content to let it develop at the pace it is. It's too bad, because I think a lot more people would enjoy his stuff. |
I thought you first advised everyone to not trust anyone on here to give an uncolored opinion (I assumed you included yourself in that statement)? Now you are accusing every poster on this thread (even the owners of other brands like Von Schweikert) of participating in a Tyler marketing campaign? I am sure Krellm7 in particular would not agree, as it primarily was his original response that jump started the entire string of other responses, IMO. You could easily make the same charge against B&W with respect to his and your posts... Of course either charge would be wrong... In my mind, these are just posters voicing their opinions based on their own set of preferences (including you and Krellm7). As you have already mentioned that you are happy with your B&W 802Ds, why should you care if others prefer the Linbrooks (or any other brand for that matter)... as long as *you* are happy, that's all that matters right?
Happy listening,
---Dave |
Why do I get the feeling this thread is a Tyler marketting campaign? Reminds me of all those Axiom threads on AVSForums awhile back. |
For what is worth, I recently took my custom Linbrook System II to another speaker builder in my state to get them tested and some speaker grills that will stay on. I was epecting to be told by this speaker manufactuer how much better his speakers were.
Instead, after testing the speakers and correcting a minor blip in the frequency response he told me if he was selling these speakers, he'd charge at least $10,000. Ty charges around $3,600.
When a competitor praises your speakers, and thinks you're undercharging they must be pretty good.
Give Ty's speakers a listen. They are worth 2-3 times what he is charging. |
Thank you Tom Ryan. I hope you too don't mysteriously perish. [http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?gmusi&1133457554&openusid&zzClassical1&4&5#Classical1] Merry Christmas to all of the Audiogon community. |
I wouldn't trust anyone on here to give you an uncolored opinion if they recommend either one, not because either aren't great speakers, but because it is fairly obvious the vested interests some people seem to have with one or the other brand.
I personally love my B&W 802Ds better than the number of other speakers I demoed, and recommend them, but will you like them as much as I do, or as much as the numerous magazines that have given the 802Ds significant awards and glowing reviews this year? Only you can figure that one out. |
I have B&W's and i have Seas Thor, same drivers as Tyler.
The B&w's are way over-rated. The Brits do a great hype job, sure sold me.
The Seas' drivers are the most natural sounding drivers in the world.
A friend of mine has the 802's. I couldn't tell him the truth of how bad they sounded, he was so excited at his new purchase. |
If we're allowed to say Christmas on this site, then I wholeheartedly 2nd Dave's sentiment - Merry Christmas!! |
I guess im comma Happy.(sorry) Hope you all have a very Merry Chrismas and a Happy New Year.
Dave |
Daverobertson's response sums it up completely. But, hey! What's with all the commas?? |
This is just one great Holiday thread!!! |
Kind of disappointing Judy is passing up a perfectly good chance to bash B&W..... |
Krellm7 & Jhjf123456
Krellm7, Thanks for the nice response back..
Jhjf123456 , I think you will be very impressed on the fine job Tyler does with his speakers. He also offers some of the best customer service out there.. You can also start off on his lower line and then trade in later to move up if you like.. He will also give most of what you paid for speakers back on trade in as long as there pretty much in like new condition.. There is not too many out there, that offers that...
I hope you truly enjoy them, when the time comes..
Good Luck,
Dave |
I had B&W 703 paried with Cary/AES tube six pac mono amps. The B&W were VERY bright, I could not listen to them for very long a moderate to loud volumes. I gave them about 300 hours to break in, still way too bright. I sold them and bought a pair of Tyler Acoustic Ref. Monitors. Fantastic speakers, I will be moving in Tylers line. |
Im shure the Tylers sound good I should have not been so rude. I just feel strongly that there are better speakers out there for the money. Yes I have listened to Tyler's in the past. |
Krellm7, I never said, there was anything wrong with the Kevlar woofers, i just prefer the Seas a little better..
Just enjoy your speakers, since you seem to be pretty satisfied with what you have.. The Tylers do sound very good though.
Enjoy |
Wow ...Thanks for all your help with everyones input....I am currently using all Parasound Halo a23 amps and the C2. I am leaning towards the Tylers after the Holidays. Thanks everyone happy holidays keep the posts coming ...Joe |
Krellm7,
I canÂ’t comment on Linbrook speakers since IÂ’ve never heard them before. However, not every likes the sound of B&W speakers. In personal evaluation of B&W 700 and 800 series, I find them way too bright, dry, emotionally uninvolving and lack dynamic immediacy. |
I've not heard the Linbrook Sigs, but have heard a smaller speaker in the Taylor line. I remember the 802's clearly.
I did not like the sound of B&W's speakers. Last year while visiting San Antonio I stopped by a place that happened to carry the top-of-the-line B&W's. I couldn't stand their sound. I preferred the Dynaudios and Definitive Techs to the B&W's despite the former costing about 1/5 (or less, depending on the model) of the B&W's.
The Taylor speakers, which I heard in San Diego earlier this year, were incredibly transparent. I had a musician (non-audiophile) friend with me. One of the CD's I used for the audition has a part where the guitarist slaps the body of the guitar with his palm twice and then the heel of his hand once. I didn't know what this sound was, but the Taylors were so transparent and accurate he recognized the sound immediately, and couldn't believe the system could reproduce that sound so clearly and accurately. When I dropped him off at his house he demonstrated the guitar slap and sure enough, sounded the same.
I didn't buy the Taylors, but they're on a short list to re-audition when I do get the urge to upgrade my speakers.
In short, B&W has a "sound." If you like their "sound" you should happily go that route. The Taylors are, IMHO more accurate and transparent regardless of the source material. I also the the Taylors will be less forgiving of your front end.
good luck! |
B&W is one of the most overrated and overpriced speakers on the market. Kudos to companies such as Silverline, Tyler, Merlin, Coincident, etc. as mentioned for offering superior speakers at lower prices. |
I've demo'd the B&W 802 several times and though it's a very nice speaker, I prefered the Tyler Linbrook Signature System (one piece) which I purchased. I have nothing against B&W, in fact my office system has a pair of B&W 602s and I gave a pair of 602s to an employee as well.
When you're at this level, it really is the sound, not the name that matters. The way Ty voices his speakers rings true for me, it may not for you. Take a look at his Home Demo page and find a local owner who will let you come over and demo the speakers in a real setting. If that's not possible, order the speakers and if you really don't like, send them back. Ty will not hassle you in any way - he really wants you to be happy with the purchase.
Some may want to diss Tyler because it's a small operation. No big deal in my book - it's neither an advantage or disadvantage. What you're not paying for with the Tylers is all the massive overhead including huge ad budgets and nice dealer margins. Plus, you get to deal with a really nice guy, instead of a salesperson who thinks B&W is the end all and be all of high-end. Right.
BTW, if you look at the most recent issue of The Absolute Sound, you'll see they give them a thumbs up in their Rocky Mountain show review. |
I bet they also spend millions on advertising |
Jhjf
Sounds like you are in a similar situation thinking wise than I was. I had seriously considered the 802'a also- in part due to them being a great sounding speaker and in part due to the B&W store being in my area. I have NOT heard the Tylers, I now own the DB-99's which Drseid compares to very similarly in regards to the Tyler's.
So- here were my thoughts and audio impressions between the 802 and the DB-99SE. Should mean a similar comparison between the Tylers and the 802 speakers with an assumption that Drseid's ears are aligned (as a caveat in part I bought the 99's due to Drseid's comments regarding them).
You must decide what you want to do with your system now, and what you may want to do later. Do you want solid state or tubes? How about SET? You can read many posts on here- the general conclusion is that the 802's need CURRENT to drive them. Not a prob- just a potential limitation to versatility. I am using Consonance Cyber 211 mono blocks (read Dec review of them on enjoythemusic.com- compares them to 90K amps). I prefer tubes so I can tube roll and create different flavors of amp- my amp then is versatile also so I feel I have a *living* system and not one fixed to one audio sound.
If money is no object skip this thought. Alas it is to me so..B&W does not sell via internet so there is no internet break/tax break etc unless you buy used. While VSA does not sell via internet many of the dealers are active on line and I found VSA and consonance amps at GREAT price and was able to get a great deal. I think Tyler does sell on line.
Small companies mean you can speak to the guy who built the speaker. This is VERY IMPORTANT. There is nothing like knowing what amp the speaker was voiced to find the synergy. People spend thousands of $ and a lifetime of headaches searching for synergy in there system. Wisdom from the speaker maker can save you $$$$ in the long run. B&W probably has someone also- but for me this personal feel with a company is cool. I can't stress this enough as it cuts out the middle man- the dealer who may say this is the BEST amp may be trying to push the inventory of (insert brand) amps because there are too many in the back before the season runs out. The speaker maker will give you the straight and skinny on what is magic and what amp was used when they voiced the speaker.
Sound:
You need to ask yourself what kind of music you listen to now, and what kind you may season into in the future. To me 802's do very well with wood based instruments- cello for example is amazing. Something to do with the cabinet makes this instrument magical. More so than in the 99's (TylerÂ’s if audio signature is similar). The 99's are NO SLOUCH. But there is a greater depth/magic to this instrument in the 802's.
That being said. Brass/vocals/guitar/drums to me, in the 802 seem recessed compared to the 99. To explain-the 99's are DYNAMIC. The drum jumps at you- the brass has texture. Multiple rhythms are easily heard and felt in the songs. The music is clean. Some have commented that it's as if the guitar is plugged right into the speaker- it's THAT clean. This speaker takes you into the venue. 802's are GREAT for classical music. There is a reason why many classical recording studio's use them. But what I have found is that this grand audio feel carries over into other music played through the 802's which was not acoustically recorded to be grand. The 99's take you from one venue to the next. Small jazz bar to orchestra hall.
Sound stage is amazing on the 99's when set up properly. REALLY. There is no need for center speakers or surround. The speakers bring all that. I have had too many people in my listening room looking around for the rest of the speakers I may have hidden. I can't comment on the 802's sound stage as room acoustics are so critical here. But I can say that when I listen to them in the dealers show room about two months AFTER I bought the 99's ( I had gone back to check if I made the right decision) This is what occurred.
I sat and the dealer turned them on and "Oh my god" fell out of my mouth. The dealer said "yes they sound great don't they?" What I was thinking was- I didn't realize just how awesome the 99's sounded. I was used to the musicians being in the room and being outside of the speaker. With the 802's the guitars and vocals were somewhat trapped in the speaker. No bash on the B&W's-- they are a GREAT speaker. But to me I have found magic with the 99's and SET combo.
Anyway- hope that helps- should if the 99's are very similar in sonic signature and efficiency as the Tylers. You don't know me so take it for what it's worth. I am NOT a dealer. Just trying to give back. Many people on this forum helped me find a system I am very happy with and just trying to add my two bits to you that it may help you in your audio journey.
Also, no disrespect meant to B&W either- keeping perspective we are really talking about the two/Three best in the class.
Best
Tony |
Daverobertson, I think you need to do a little research B&W also uses many other materials in ther woofers. What do you think is wrong with kevlar anyway. OPEN MOUTH,INSERT FOOT!
The_kid,
When did the cost of a tweeter determine the sound of it(within reason)?
Even if it is $75 a pair they cost less because you can replace the diaphragm instead of the whole tweeter!!! Imagine that. Looking at your system you can only dream of having one like mine.O let me rephrase that SYSTEMS like mine. And Tyler can only dream of making a speaker like the ones I have. Your room acoustics must be terrible in that cramped room. I bet having the speakers so close to the side walls give of great unwanted reflections.
Happy Holidays... |
Building drivers in-house, or having exclusive use of drivers is irrelevant. I have heard speakers that used exclusive drivers that have sounded excellent, and others that sounded poor. I could say the same about speakers using "drivers you can get off the Internet." In the end, it mainly comes down to the capability of the driver (created in-house or not), and what the speaker designer does with it (implementation).
As for B&W being a big company, can't disagree there... but again, that means nothing with respect to end-product quality to my thinking. Bose is a big company too. I am sure you would not compare *B&W* to Bose... Again, size of company and distribution channels are irrelevant, it comes down to what the end product sounds like (and its build quality). Is a box created in a large scale assembly plant necessarily more effective than one created by hand, or with manual tooling?
---Dave |
I've owned/thoroughly enjoyed several Tyler speakers, and one thing you get with Tyler Acoustics that you won't get with B&W, and I also owned 804Ns for 18 months, ... is Ty. The guy will spend time talking to you, answer your e-mails, and he'll work with you, offer suggestions without pushing you to buy. I loved my B&Ws, but I bought my Tylers right AFTER selling the B&Ws and NEVER regretted it ... they met needs I had that the B&Ws could not, despite being excellent speakers. |
Krellm7..I've seen posters ask polite questions about B&W and Judy426 will attack like a pit bull. For you to be talkin' smack about B&W, I'm afraid this could get very ugly. You are about to face the wrath of Judy426, my friend..good luck. |
Jhjf123456
I'm not going to get into a debate with other posters, i'll just tell you MY onw experience. My Previous speakers were B&W Matrix 801 Series 3. My current speakers are the Tyler Linbrook Signature Series (one piece).
While I had the 801s i enjoyed them very much. I replaced them for the reason stated above - if a driver went bad, i was out of luck. I tried the Tylers because i wanted to give an American speaker maker a try. I bought them without ever having heard them.
When i first got them i was afraid I had made a mistake. But I put a disc on repeat play and walked away for a week. I came back to find a different speaker. Another week went by, and I found myself stunned and amazed. I was grinning ear to ear. Superior to the 801s in every way. Maybe not quite as deep in the bass but the Tylers do go down to 25 hz - CLEANLY. 801s - NOT too clean.
These are my real life - actual experiences - no theory, or guessing here.
Do I miss the 801s? Not even a little bit! :-)
Best of luck.
paul |
|
Krellm7, I think you need to do a little more research..
B&W , uses Kevlar woofers..Im not putting down B&W , because i think they make a fine product, but Tyler does also..Tyler also builds his own cabinets.. |
Krellm7,
Larger companies do not always make better products. Various companies like Totem, Krell, Sonus Faber, Silverline, Joseph, and many more use drivers and tweeters manufactured by other companies like ScanSpeak, Seas, and Dynaudio just to name a few.
Here is a good comparison for you. Is the Chevrolet Corvette a better car than a Porsche 911 because Chevrolet is a larger organization than Porsche?
Also, here is some home work for you. The Metal tweeter used in your precious Matrix speakers are about $75.00 a pair. You can check the replacement value if you want.
The Seas Millenium Tweeter used in the Linbrooks are $340.00 pair. What is B&W thinking? What was the retail on those Dinosaurs again?
I have owned a pair of Tyler Acoustics and truly enjoyed them. I also do not have anything against B&W Speakers. The new Diamond Tweeter really shows promise in their designs.
Happy Holidays
Chris |
In other words you've never heard the Tylers. You sound an awful lot like a certain poster on AA who continously bashes Tyler even though he admits he's never heard them either.
Bose compared to Tyler! Can we say zero credibility.
MaxxC |
I know one thing you can't buy B&W drivers off the internet
like you can with the Tyler's & many others. B&W drivers are exclusive to B&W the reason for that is THEY BUILD EVERY THING IN HOUSE! They also have there own cabinet manufactureing plant!! They also spend millions of dollars every year in research & development. I bet Tyler does not have a doppler inferometer to mesure cabnet resonance in there speakers. There are always going to be people who think a tiny little company can maker a better product
than a large established company.
Goatwuss
Do not forget I also own Martin Logan CLS, Magnepan MG IIIA,
Spica TC60's,B&W 705's,MArtix 800's..... |
Speaking as an owner of the Linbrook System (although mine is the 2 piece version), and having listened extensively to the B&W 802s (both N and D versions) on several ocasions in different rooms powered by high-end McIntosh electronics on both, I think I can say without a doubt that the Tylers are far better to my ears. In every area I felt the Tylers bested both versions of the 802s... Highs were more natural sounding, midrange was far superior, soundstage height and width were superior, and the Linbrooks got much lower, with tighter and faster bass.
All of this said, the 802 were still good speakers to be sure, but to my ears at least, I found absolutely no reason to want them over what I had (telling the salesman so after one of the auditions to utter shock), and I found the multiple auditions only strengthened my belief that I made the right choice.
For reference, the speaker that I felt came closest to the Linbrook Signature System in my auditions was the *superb* Von Schweikert DB99 mkIIs (then at 10K, now selling for 12K). Now *that* would be a competition. :-)
As for Krellm7's comments, I really have no idea where he is coming from on this one. The negative statement about Tyler sounds like it is coming from someone who has never heard the brand. Comparing the $5500 Linbrook System with top-of-the-line SEAS Excel drivers to Bose (any of their models) is rather outlandish IMO, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
---Dave |
Hey Joe, I would highly recommend Tyler Acoustics. I have been happy with what I have owned. We need a moderator on AG! |
The Tylers are very good speakers , that compare to other great sounding speakers out there, quite well.. Don't listen to one person's advise, hear them for yourself, if you can.. Im sure Tyler, would also offer a return policy, if not satified, but i think you will be very satified with them..
Good Luck,
Dave |
... Says the person who owns B&W 705s... |
You are kidding right? Tyler? You are having trouble deciding what ones to buy? Tyler speakers are a joke they are worse than VRS much worse. I would almost rather have Bose. |
