Used McIntosh Amp or better new options out there? - Amplifier or Integrated
A little about me, I am in the process of building my next step up 2-channel system for a listening room that is 17’x13’x12’. Current gear: LS50 and Paradigm Studio 20 v5 + Rotel RA-12 + SB2000 For me new speakers I’m thinking in the $3-4k price range floor standing speakers. Some of the speakers I’m considering: Dynaudio Evoke 50, KEF R7, Focal Aria 936, Salk Song3 tower and my stretch budget option is the 805 D3s. I mostly listen to Jazz, orchestra/instrumental, Pop, some trance/electronic and Classic rock. I’m a fan of a clean but less harsh highs, non shouty mids and tight controlled bass.
Now back to the topic at hand. I came across a used MC152 at a local high end audio store. The sales guy indicated this was originally a demo amp from their store that one of their regulars bought and recently traded it in for a large Mac amp. He indicated its from 2017, but no way for me to know for sure (not sure if the serial number will let me look it up?). I auditioned this amp on speakers they had in store and I really liked the sound it produced on my usual music tracks. However the left VU meter needle on this amp was not working. Apart from that looked in mint condition, not scratches, no marks on the screws that would indicate tampering. The dealer said he’ll get it serviced from a local third party McIntosh repair shop and can then sell it to me once fixed and I’m satisfied with its condition. They are asking $2.8k for this amp, which is what attracted me to it given how expensive they are normally.
Now my question is, should I bother taking the plunge? Now that I found out the VU meter is broken, I’m a little turned off since someone is now going to open this thing up (probably for the first time). I’ve heard Macs are bullet proof and last for ever, but does anyone see any red flags here or anything I should look for?
Given the $3k ish price range, is there something else I could consider in this range (I prefer Class AB or Tube or Tube Hybrid). Is paying close to retail for a new MC152 from a dealer worth the extra money (warranty and less anxiety)? This is the first time I’m buying in this price range, so I want to make sure. I’m open to both a good stereo power amp or an integrated as long as its a sizeable upgrade from my RA-12. If its only an amp, I intend to us the RA-12 as a preamp for now till I can budget for a good tube preamp (Rogue Audio perhaps)
I ideally wanted to stay at about $6k for speaker + amp and was leaning towards one of the Dynaudio towers + a parasound Halo or Rotel RA-1592 / 1582 MkII type amp. I always dreamed of owning a McIntosh or Luxman but couldn’t stomach to full retail price on those beauties. Any help to reduce my anxiety or providing some suggestions would be much appreciated :)
Well, the MAC's are certainly good stuff and the resale on them hold well through the decades. There are other good tube amps out there, too, you might consider. I had a MAC 275 in my system for while, which was a loaner, so after a while I had to begrudgingly give it back. I did love the sound, to be sure. All those tubes glowing red at night was pure sex appeal. (At least my audiophile friends thought so.)
I wouldn't worry about opening the unit up for repair. If the repair shop is certified MAC, you will have no problems. Heck, if it is a highly regarded tube repair shop, you won't have a problem.
I think the real question you need to ask yourself is "how" you listen. With good solid state, you can leave it on all day, while you are home or not, listening critically or not, even leave it on all night, it won't care, it will just keep playing. With tubes, well, they do care. They have a short lifespan compared to solid state. At some point, they will wear out, and you will spend a hundred or two to replace them. So, I just don't let the tubes run unless I am critically listening, or at least, in the same room with them. The rest of the time I use the solid state home theater to fill the house with sound and bring life to movies.
The last question you need to ask yourself, although it appears you already asked and answered, is whether you want to go down the tube path. Once you do, and you like what you find, you will then want a tube preamp, a tube CD player, a tube crossover (if you use one), heck you will probably want tubes in your cereal bowl in the mornings. :-) The tube gear will act like a giant backhoe working overtime in your wallet. If you don't like what you find, well, in that case tube gear holds resale well, if you bought good stuff to begin with.
As for buying used, well, it is just a smaller bucket on the backhoe....
@sr20022002 "as long as its a sizeable upgrade from my RA-12"..."I’m a fan of a clean but less harsh highs, non shouty mids and tight controlled bass."... "Any help to reduce my anxiety or providing some suggestions would be much appreciated :)"
Do you need to buy/upgrade amps and speakers together all at once? Can you try a partial upgrade to start, to apply more $ to amp or speakers first.
+1 what spatialking said. "How" you listen is key for a SS vs. Tube decision. Also, might need to decide if you are stuck on McIntosh. Separates can be costly.
You could ask them to demo the MC152 before they fix the meters. Good dealers do demos. Try it with your LS50s and SB2000 before you buy. It will give you ideas, enough to decide to explore tubes or not.
You’ve always wanted a Macintosh. It’s a little over half price of a new one. Ask the dealer to throw in a set of new power tubes and a 12 month warranty and take it.
@sr20022002, I bought a second hand McIntosh Mc152 from Audio Classics and both meters worked perfectly for $2500.00. Two years later, I traded it in on a used McIntosh MC302 amp and got $3000.00 on trade in from The Music Room. Shop around, there are many MC152 amps for sale out there.
@spatialking The dealer said they would get it fixed through a known Mac repair shop in the air (I looked them up and they seem legit, but are third party and not Mac authorized I believe). The only thing is once its opened, I’m wondering if its resale value will drop. Not sure if it’s possible to lookup amp repair history or warranty history based on the serial number ?
@decooney I’m not set on upgrading everything all at once, but I also don’t want to end up with like 10-15k worth of equipment either. I want to keep it relatively lightweight so that its easier to offload if I need to. My plan is to get a solid state Amp and then preamp I ideally want to get a tube. Was looking at Rogue audio (under $2k budget), not sure if there’s any others in that price range.
@noromance I highly doubt this dealer will throw in anything, this is the type of shop that caters people with lots of disposable income and just expect the dealer to build them a system. I asked them what speakers they have in the showroom under $5k and he could only show me 3-pairs, rest everything was above that. So its that kind of a store where they don’t exactly get bargain hunters. I normally would not buy from such a place, but there’s no other such store in the area.
@stereo5 That sounds like a good deal! I’m going to look around. I found a couple of people on FB market place who said they could give me discount and an authorized dealer’s receipt made in my name, but they claim the item is open box and no disclosing dealer name. Sounds a little sketchy, but I’m wondering if certain dealers do such things to sell below MSRP and cut a deal for people.
Anyone have experience with getting discount on new equipment? Should I be considering something like Luxman or Passlabs? I’m not quite sure how pure Class A works in terms of driving speakers given their small power output, are they only good for really efficient speakers ? I definitely prefer Mac, but is there anything I’m overlooking that could give me more discounts buying new or save me money with equivalent performance? (No class-D ;) haha )
@OP, I would recommend getting your speakers first, then choosing the remaining components. Some speakers work better with certain amp/preamps. If you buy your amps first, then you are locked into what speakers will work best with them. And, I would add a pair of Vandersteen Treo's, used they would be in your budget. Bob
@OP, Getting discounts from a dealer means building a relationship with him/her-and, buying enough equipment to make it worth the while. -As far as class A goes, they can drive anything within their power range, just like any other amplifier. A lot depends upon the design. A Pass Amp will probably have greater ability to drive difficult loads than most other manufacturers. Mac is a well respected brand, but there are many others out there that give them a run for the money. Ayre (SS), and Atmasphere(tubes) are my choices. Both play extremely well with my Vandy Treo's and VLR's. B
How about a really nice integrated tube amplifier... instead of separates with added costs, cabling costs, gonna need a DAC if it’s not built in, etc.
Eventually after I’m done screwing around with separates in SS and tube the past 35 years, my end game system will likely go back to a super nice integrated tube amplifier. Another good place to start and end at. Good resale.
@gdnrbob Good point. I am planing to prioritize speakers for sure. The issue I’m dealing with there is Dynaudio and Focal are no where to be found near me for auditioning and the dealer I’m dealing with is going to be a no-return type deals (since he is offering me some more than usual discounts). I have the ability to audition Sonus Faber Sonetta V, B&W and KEF. I’m personally in love with 805 D3 from the audition, but I feel the Dynaudio evoke is going to be my type of warm smooth sound from what I read online ... so its a little bit of a tossup. This is one of the reason I’m opting into a high current solid state amp with lots of dynamic power so that it wont matter if I have a 84db 4ohm speaker or a 90db 8ohm ... (at least that’s my thinking, correct me if I’m wrong)
@decooney I thought of that. I am so in love with the way the Rogue Chronus Magnum III looks and sounds. But then my McIntosh dream will never come true if I spend that kinda money.
Another super awesome integrated that I’d consider endgame for me is the Parasound Halo and maybe put a tube preamp stage on it if I really crave tubes at some point.
But all these routes mean I can’t have McIntosh. I’m not the kind of person who swaps equipment too often, if I buy a $4-6k amp + speaker setup, I’m probably not going to upgrade or switch it out for a long time. That’s why I want like a rock solid power amp that will just be end game and then I can swap or switch different preamps (tubes or SS) as needed over time. So in that sense, sometimes I feel I could just buy new and not have to deal with the headaches later.
I got ML 60’s via Crutchfield and that’s was my return shipping when I decided not to keep. I tried the Focal 936 via The Music Room; too bright for my space. I bought Salk bookshelves.
@hilde45 The only issue with Crutchfield is that I’ll have to pay retail price. Whereas my local dealer can potentially give me a better price. Maybe I could just take the trial and then buy locally, but I don’t think its worth the hassle.
Raven Audio out of Texas has 3 integrated tube amps in your price range. I had a chance to buy Mac but thought the sound of Raven was better driving Sonus Faber Amati Homage Speakers. Take a look at their website and then call Dave Thomson, who is one of the owners.
OP, The prices I listed were open box or scratch and dent (not bad, really) prices. I had a back and forth with Crutchfield for the MLs and they gave me a break on the price, and also on some Klipsch's I bought. In other words, they negotiate. For that kind of money -- and for the trouble it takes to get rid of a speaker (for a loss) later, I though a trial was necessary. Of course "hassle" is relative to one's life, so I wish you the best whatever you choose.
I agree with the idea of purchasing speakers first. I also think that at your budget you would be best off with a integrated amp. Macintosh makes them, i believe them to be tube/SS hybrids.
@OP, See if your dealer will let you have a trial with the speakers. Paying a small amount would be a good idea to see if they: 1. Sound good in your room. 2. Work with your equipment. In my opinion, you can either buy something at a discount, but might not like, or buy it at retail and have a time to listen to them, but still have the ability to return. No free lunch. And, remember it takes about a month for a speaker to break in... Believe me, I tried going your route, but in the end, found it best to find a dealer you can trust. PM me if you want his name.-Though a quick search of my posts will probably give you that info.( And, no, you don't have to reside near him to get his great free advice). Bob
90% of this who long coveted those big blue meters, scratched that itch and moved on. Impressive as they are aesthetically, you will eventually do better sonically...I certainly did.
Speak for yourself, I have 2 McIntosh based systems and I certainly did not buy them for their big blue meters, although they are pretty. I happen to LOVE the McIntosh house sound and have finally gotten off the merry-go-round and am done. You McIntosh haters are like pigeons, you strutt your stuff and then crap all over someone elses coveted components. Enough already.
@OP, I messaged you back. @stereo5 , I agree with you post, but I will continue to say that certain speakers work better with certain amps/preamp. I really hate the bandied 'synergy' word, but it really does have a place in audio systems. I also love the look of the Mac meters, and I respect their build, but, for my Vandy's, they just don't cut the mustard as well as Ayre or Belles. Would they work well- Yes! But, they wouldn't have the 'fire and lightning' (think 'All About Eve') the aforementioned manufacturers do with my speakers. There is a new post on the Audiophilliac regarding an audiophile who seems to have bounced around with more speakers than I think he should have. Yes, he has quality equipment, but he seems to have relied upon his auditions in the store, rather than asking to demo the speakers in his own room. In the end, he just cycles through speakers.-And, if his dealer is competent, he would have guided him more carefully in his choices. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdX4_NJ4BP0 It pains me to see someone needing guidance just spending money and not getting that audio high when everything comes together. Bob
@stereo5,I am speaking for myself and the 95% of former Mac owners who have moved on. Said for some vintage Luxman gear that was gifted to me in my early adulthood, Mac was the first piece of "expensive" gear I coveted and took the plunge with. I began with an old MC754 and then had the following in and out of my setup: MC150 MC300 C42 MC501's C2300 MC601's MC2301's All were visually stunning, and fortunately all sold for top dollar when I realized after nearly 15 years that the sound was good, but homogenized. My point is, my narrative is shared by many more than not. So do yourself a favor and audition as much as you are able before settling on Mac gear...or B&W for that matter. My opinion, and that is what this forum is for...I wish I had this intel many years ago,
I have probably had over 100 different pieces of equipment since 1970, especially since I worked in an audio store for 15+ years. I purchased my last 2 systems in 2017-2019. I chose the McIntosh because it sounds the way I always wanted my system to sound and I wonder what took me so long to take the plunge. As I am retired, I have no intentions of buying any more equipment. The only things I want at this point are better preamp jumper cables for my McIntosh MA6600 Integrated and a better tone arm cable for my Technics SL1200G. I will be speaking to Chris Van Haus @VH Audio and have him build the preamp jumpers first and late this year or early next year a better tonearm cable for me. Other than that, I am done and enjoying the music.
So I wanted to update everyone that I ended up taking the plunge for the used MC152 from my local dealer. They told me that they did troubleshooting with the McIntosh service center and it was just a ribbon cable that was unseated which caused the left meter needle to not get the signal. It was a simple fix. I inspected the unit again today and it was flawless, not a scratch or dent anywhere. Front glass in perfect condition, screws in perfect condition. I’m actually a little surprised how the previous person kept it dust free like that even on the inside from what I saw through the wents.
My dealer also let me bring in my LS50s to test the amp, we played on it for a 15-20min tried different volume levels, worked perfectly, both dials working.
Came with the original box and packaging (screwed on to a piece of MDF and cardboard which is crazy). Haven’t unboxed it yet, need to buy a panamax or similar power strip before I plug it in.
Curious if anyone knows if I can find the date of manufacture or any details on how old it is or what the warranty status is (i know it can’t be transferred but just curious).
Thanks a lot to all the inputs here! Next task would be a preamp and speakers. Right now I plan to use my Rotel integrated as a preamp and my LS50s.
@stereo5 As you can probably discern, I am not looking to be combative, far too many of those types trolling the waters. At the end of the day, most of us agree that our little esoteric hobby is purely subjective to the individual. If what you are listening to elicits a smile, toe tap, or a windmill style air guitar, you have found your own audio nirvana and no one should suggest otherwise. Continue to enjoy your retirement and the fruits of your sonic minded labor! Cheers!
@gdnrbob For some reason I’m unable to see messages from my profile. Not sure whats going on. But either I just posted an update above. I’m pretty excited for this first piece of serious gear I acquired :) ... thanks for all the help!
I can totally see that somebody may not like the "Mac sound", and I am sure there could always be a better "bang for your buck" somewhere else. But please do not put up an unsubstantiated claim (e.g. 95% of the people, etc., etc.) when you have no stats to back up your claims with. It is all personal, and I am glad you found the sound you really like. Just don’t preach as if it is the gospel. For one, it makes you sound like a hater and doesn’t really strengthen your message. Just my two cents.
You can call the McIntosh factory and they can give you the date of manufacture. I owned that amp for 2 years and it was a powerhouse. Don't be surprised that the amp looks brand new, most McIntosh guys keep their units in pristine condition because the resale value is much higher. That mdf is there for a reason, it keeps the amp from shifting in the box and keeps the glass safe. I would not plug that amp into a Panamax, it will degrade the sound. Either plug directly into the wall or get a passive noise conditioner just for the amp. That way, you won't limit the power of the amp.
just a side note, I've never heard of anyone being concerned if the equipment was opened or not being an issue. Hell I've opened every piece of equipment I've ever owned to have a look at how is built (why I probably wont own AudioNote again). As for service, people seem to think there's something magic in equipment, there's not its electronics and any reputable electronics tech can fix just about any manufactures equipment. getting the parts-software that's another story.
I know a lot of water has passed under the bridge on this thread, but I do like those Salk speakers. I'd buy speakers first way before you consider the amp, and tubes over solid state all day long with a few exceptions - like the Luxman you mentioned.
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