At that level there is no BEST only different.
Matt M
What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?
I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
The two transducers in a system.
I bit the bulllet and bought a Lyra Atlas SL for $13K for my Woodsong Garrard 301 with Triplanar SE arm. I use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. My $60K front end. It is certainly, by far, the best I have owned. I read so many comments exclaiming that Lyra as among the best. I had to wait 6 months to get it. But the improvement over my excellent $3K Mayijima Shilabi was spectacular-putting it mildly.
I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name.
For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!
This got me thinking of what could be possible with a different kind of cartridge than a moving coil. That is, a moving iron.
I have heard so much about the late Decca London Reference. A MI and a very different take from a MC. Could it be better? The World’s Best? No longer made.
However Grado has been making MI cartridges for decades. Even though they hold the patent for the MC. Recently, Grado came out with their assault on “The World’s Best”. At least their best effort. At $12K the Epoch 3. I bought one and have been using it now for about two weeks replacing my Lyra. There is no question that the Atlas SL is a fabulous cartridge. But the Epoch is even better. Overall, it’s SQ is the closest to real I have heard. To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. Everything I have read about it is true. IME, the comment of one reviewer, “The World’s Best”, may be true.
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Agree with @slaw |
I like MI cartridges very much. You might even say I prefer them to MC cartridges, as a group. Then along comes the crazy Ortofon MC2000 with its vanishingly low voltage output. It responds well to a current drive input, and it might be my favorite cartridge, ever, used in that context. But I have never heard your cartridges, except maybe the Atlas at a friend's house. My point is that if you are searching for the world's best cartridge, cost no object, then my friend you are going to be spending a lot of money, which you already have done. Be happy you can afford what you have already afforded and enjoy. |
"I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name. For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!" At some point that cart will be surpassed by a designer, pushing it down into the plebian category of Lyra Atlas, and all the others.
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Your Atlas *if* dialed in right is a pretty special cart. Yet for some people the worlds best might be an original white bakelite Neumann DST from 60 years ago. For another whatever Audio Exotics has at the top of the price list :) Certainly carts with high quality gold or platinum windings might be interesting. I picked Aidas and Tedeska to sell in my portfolio because, while not inexpensive, I felt the value is high.
Enjoy |
OP,
The Grado Epoch 3 is a really beautiful cartridge. I look forward to hearing it some day.
My daily music time is 4 - 6 PM… and with it being summer.. the heat pump is typically on, not a huge noise but enough to mask the detail of my analog end… so for now I stream all the time. I am looking forward to the Fall when analog will again be a great choice. |
it's an un-knowable thing. there is no 'absolute' way to single out a best cartridge. i can say in my personal experience so far, i've not heard another cartridge do what my 'special version' of the Etsuro Gold MC does in my system. it's very expensive, and rare. few have heard it. it has a magical believability along with tone and life. i've had more than a few high level cartridges in my system, but not everything. and there are arm and phono stage variables. |
I would dispute this assumption. In my view the TT trumps all. I'd rather have a the best TT I can buy with a $500 cartridge than a top cartridge with less than optimum TT. In your case a tonearm upgrade would arguably unleash more performance than changing cartridges. I currently have a Garrard 301 with FR64S in my B system and have set up many arms on Garrard's including Moerch, Helius, Kuzma to name a few. Each of these arms offers a different perspective on any given cartridge. I have owned or set up most of the cartridges you mention - Personally I prefer the top Soundsmith MI's to their strain gauge. The Decca MI's are superb, but can mistrack unless perfectly set up in an appropriate tonearm due to the lack of suspension. They are now out of production. I also have owned a few of the cantileverless MC Ikedas from the 80's - they are the MC equivalent of the Decca. Current favourite of current production cartridges would be Van den Hul Grand Cru which I have recently set up on a Kuzma 4Point11. The reality though is that cartridges are so dependent on TT, tonearm and phono stage interface that they can only really be judged in the context of the supporting components, and the best cartridge is the one that works best with your particular arm and phono stage.
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+1, @mikelavigne I am hoping to end up with Etsuro Gold MC in very near future, once I am done putting together all the pieces of my new analog rig. |
you will not regret it. best wishes with your new analog rig. the standard Etsuro Gold bettered my previous references clearly including the Clearaudio GFS, Anna Diamond, and vdH Master Signature, which were the most recent one's i had. i had many others over the years which that group had bettered. i've also been very impressed with a field coil cartridge made in Lithuania, the DaVa Reference with a tubed power supply. i've had it for a couple of months and figuring it out. it does some amazing things too. |
Very interested to read this. I am a moving iron fan, and have a London Decca Jubilee and a Reference. When the Reference went for its final re-tip (the maker is retiring and it is uncertain whether anyone will be able to service these cartridges in future), I decided that rather than just use the Jubilee, I would explore other takes on the MI principle. I bought the little brother of the Epoch 3, the Statement 3, and bore with it for 80 hours. It's a good pickup, but it doesn't excite me the way a Decca does. There's something about not having a cantilever, and taking the signal immediately above the stylus from the Decca's armature that gets the timing just right. I guess it's like comparing a CD player with uncorrected jitter against one that has none (if only!) However, there is a design very similar to the Grado that does an amazing job for less than a third of the price - a Nagaoka MP-500. It is very, very close to the sound of a Decca. And while it is a (relatively) cheap pickup, it ended up costing me - I bought a second SME turntable to make a permanent home for it so I can be more sparing in my use of the Reference when it comes back. If it cannot be serviced again in the future I have to stretch its life out as long as possible. I spent some time swapping cartridges and comparing the above mentioned, and also the Benz Ruby 3 I was using before the Deccas came along, its predecessor the Wood H2, and an Ortofon Kontrapunkt C. I have a clear ranking in my mind about which is best, for me, and so on to the least pleasing. None of these are in the OP's league, but there is hope for us mortals! BTW, I have never had any tracking issues with the Deccas with a damped SME Series V arm. |
mglik, Keep in mind that when you "heard" the $25K cartridge, every other piece of gear in that system, which I take it was new to you, was also different from your own rig, not to mention the room itself. Therefore, it is folly to attribute the final result to the cartridge alone. That’s what makes this pursuit so endless. Put that same cartridge in your own system, and you may feel it’s not any better than what you have, which is already top drawer. Dogberry, You do realize that the Nagaoka MP500 is a MM cartridge, not an MI, and therefore not much like any Grado or Decca, except perhaps in its SQ, which I agree is excellent. The dirty little secret of cartridges is that excellence is not always proportional to cost. |
Both Nagaoka and I must disagree with you about the MM/MI thing. To quote from Nagaoka's website:
I've corrected some spelling errors in the translation from Japanese, but I don't know what was meant by 'a hey magnet'. Nagaoka, Soundsmith and Grado all use a ferrous metal disc or cross mounted on the cantilever immediately inside the suspension grommet, and this moves within the magnetic fields of fixed magnets, and fixed coils. Nagaoka are proud of the kind of ferrous material they use and call it Permalloy, hence the MP designation. See this page for animated illustrations: |
Dear @mglik : Congratulations for those both new cartridges you own. Your question could be controversial because any cartridge quality performance levels depends on with what kind of quality analog rig ( inlcuding phono stage. ) is surrounded and depends too of each cartridge owner skills for its accurated overall set up. Cartridges as yours or coming from VDH or Ortofon or Koetsu or the Etsuro or, or, or,... are the best for its owners but at the top cartridge models in reality I agree with @mattmiller : no best but a little different. Every one of us have our own and very specifics targets and priorities with MUSIC/sound reproduction.
Btw, maybe both of your cartridge could be best " serv " by a different tonearm and obviously a different better phonolinepreamp. At both sides you will experience better SQ with both cartridges that the one you are experienced rigth now.
"" To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. "" Well that per sé means almost nothing for your cartridges. Rigth now I have mounted a LOMC vintage cartridge made by Sumiko that perform exactly that way in that precise issue and not only that this Sumiko is really good and @dover that’s a " delicated " experienced audiophile knows a lot on it. In the other side, Grado was not the one with the first MC patented principle but Ortofon in 1948 way before Grado existed.
@lewm , you are wrong Nagaoka is not a MM design: https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/item/cat/record/ https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/product/diamond.html
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@mglik : https://patents.google.com/patent/US2591996A/en
The reviewer on your link said:
""" MM/MI has always been superior texturally and always quieter, but has eluded manufacturers’ abilities to produce maximum definition. Not anymore. The brilliant genius John Grado has done it. ""
and before Grado that was made it by Pritchard owner of ADC and Sonus induced magnet cartridge designs and before that he designed for GE. The model I’m refering is his ADC 27 cartridge and even that I did not experienced yet exist the ADC 10E MK4 that other audiophile says is the best Pritchard design. Levi reviewer needs to learn something about or at least experienced the Pritchard designs before post that kind of statements. But as you analog has an emotional " weigth " and that’s why we all are here. Nothing wrong with that.
R. |
At Bob’s I heard the Etsuro Gold. Amazing sound for sure. But it was overwhelming. So much new information that it circumvented a deep emotional response. That’s just me. My response was “OK, I get it!”. No matter how great a system, it cannot really be compared to a live event. My brain digested the information as a mismatch and prevented suspension of disbelief. I am a diehard Quad 57 guy. One has to accept the limitations and accept that the Quads can never do many others can. But there is an organic, human quality that is addictive. And that is especially well suited for the Grado Epoch 3. I also hear the “magical realism” your mention. And am able to suspend my disbelief to a point where I get emotionally connected with the musicians.
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Read the page, for yourself, or here's another quote:
From https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/product/record.html It clearly indicates there is a fixed magnet that induces magnetism in the permalloy on the end of the cantilever. This means the heavy magnet need not be moved by the cantilever, only the lightweight ferrous alloy on the cantilever. |
@mglik not heard Bob’s system, so i can’t even guess why you might say that. but i can guess how a Quad 57 oriented guy might not mesh with some systems. if you visited Bob’s, you are not that far from me. you would be most welcome to visit and hear the Etsuro Gold(s) in my system......anytime. my big Studers set the bar very high as far as information and my system can use it all in service to the music......so a cartridge need not worry about that. whether my system would tip you over into ’disbelief’ is anyone’s guess. i does work that way for me. not the 'live event'.....but it does touch my soul. |
Hi Mike, But your "big Studers", I'm sure, will be a different story. Thanks, Mike |
My choice would be the Etsuro G, plus the Etsuru MC step up, and the Zyx Astro. But at that price point nearly all contenders would sound pretty good, take your pick after all each one has somehow a different sound. Compatiblity with arm and phono stage are vital and most critical the best table for supporting all. |
I never did get to hear an ESL57, but did the 63, and owned 989s and now have 2905s. I probably don't get the purity of the midrange that the 57s give, but if it's being overlaid by a bit of bass I can live with it! BTW, I hope your ego is a lot less fragile than you pretend! We all learn new things - I had not come across the cantilever-less Ikeda MC cartridges until I read this thread. I see if I want to risk a couple of thousand dollars on eBay I can try one out, but I'm not so brave or foolish as to do that. |
In the assault of the high end I think there are at least two or three value camps. One would be high resolution and another maybe natural / musical and forgiving. You could probably come up with a couple more. But I get what Mike is asking… there are a few extraordinarily cartridges out there that satisfy some end groups desires. |
Doggie, was joking about having a fragile ego. If you read about Nagaoka cartridges on Raul’s MM thread, the MP50 and 500 were very often referred to as MM types or else without specifying the transducer type. I guess that’s where I picked up my idea that they’re MMs. Right now listening to Monk on Riverside, via my B&O MMC20CL, another great MI cartridge. |
Dear @lalitk : DaVa Reference, something to consider down the road ". Well the field coil ( electro magnetically. ) cartridges is an example that not only audiophiles as us make our room/system choices along its trade-offs/compromises that are the " best " for each one of us but that manufacturers always do it.
Audio Note field coil cartridge comes with cantilever against the DaVa cantilever-less design but not only that DaVa choosed a tube power supply ( that has no sense to me. ) with all the " artefacts " surrounded tubes as some kind level of microphonics or development of some kind of noise/hum against the design Audio NOTE power supply in its cartridge that looks really good: Which cartridge performs better well it’s the same question of the OP in this thread: different trade-offs. Cantilever-less has " immediacy " in the kind of sound ( something as horn drivers. ) but with a penalty that’s that are not very good trackers and due to this fact can’t pick up all the grooves information. I owned the Ikeda cantilever-less model and that’s why I know that.
Anyway, a field coil cartridge design s welcomed. Is it better? only each owner can tell it. The cartridges looks the same but only difference at sigth are the 6 pins cartridge connectors instead the normal 4 output pins connectors.
Btw, Audio Note manufacture too field coil speaker drivers. R. |
as far as the performance of the DaVa Reference field coil cartridge with the tubed power supply.....it reminds me of what i heard from the Neumann DST.....but with more top and bottom extension. textures on top of textures, and tonality that is superb. projects lots of energy and life. the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply. and fits the character of the DaVa. |
dAER @mikelavigne : "" the tubed power supply sounds better than a solid state power supply. and fits the character . ""
I wonder how you know that other way that the manufacturer has both power supply kind of designs and if not then from where came your statement ? ! ? !. I can't remember if the DST is a field coil cartridge design and never listen it in my system but in other system and is a good carrtridge but not something to " die for ".
Different cartridge kind of designs have its own trade offs and in this thread @mglik prefered the Grado over a top LOMC cartridge.
Even that, your statement needs an explanation and certainly been appreciated but we all audiophiles because that is a new cartridge and a new audio experiences with.
Thank's in advance,
R.
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@rauliruegas fair enough, my source is second hand feedback from other users. did not have the solid state PS on hand myself. if the tubed power supply is distorted, i love distortion like that. no; the Neumann DST is not a field coil design. it has no separate power supply. i’m told ideally you use a special SUT for it. |
I really LOVE my Lyra Atlas SL with my P1 and X1 combination. I also like MysonicLabs where I have to bump up the gain a bit. I feel that getting a cartridge that matches the phono stage is important as some low output carts cannot show their true colors without appropriate phono stage, ground control clean power etc... |
Dear @mikelavigne : I was not aware that the DaVa carrtridges are on sale where the buyers can select the kind of power supply they want: tube or the other design and maybe you did not have the opportunity to listed that cartridge with both manufacturer PS and followed that second hand feedbak from other owners that had the chance to listen both power supply with the DaVa Reference. Good, I will google the cartridge.
As I said a different cartridge design principle always is welcomed even if maybe I will not have the opportunity to listen it.
R.
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Wow, lots of different subjects being covered here, and all of them are interesting. For the matter of using Quad 57 speakers, I personally like them, regardless of their shortcomings. I've heard the Dave Slagle stacked Quads and dedicated tube amps, including a setup that used two stacks of two per channel (four 57's per channel). I liked the two 57 per channel setup, but, there were other Quad 57 fans who actually preferred a simple pair of Quad 57s over any stacked array. Again, it is a matter of personal preference. The only field coil cartridges I have heard are the Audio Note cartridge and a Denon 103 that Dave Slagle modified to use field coil magnets. Both are very lively sounding cartridges. My experience with field coils is more in the way of speakers, and I have heard several systems with both a solid state and a tube power supply for the magnets. I was frankly shocked, and somewhat disappointed, that the tube power supply sounded considerably better. I was disappointed because a solid state power supply would be much more convenient--less heat, no concern over tube replacement, and much better voltage stability (the tube supply changed voltage as everything warmed up, and it required more adjustment to maintain optimal sound). |
