+1 @mofimadness Interesting list. I probably wouild have around 20 if this was just a Top 100 1970's list and maybe 12-15 if an all time list. Kodus for the elimination of Lou Reed/Ramones/The Clash and the godawful(pun intended) Sex Pistols recording!
1) Miles Davis: Second Great Quintet Box Set
2) Allman Bros.: Fillmore East
3) Ry Cooder: Paradise and Lunch
4) Grateful Dead: Europe ’72
5) Bill Evans : Village Vanguard Sessions
6) Wayne Shorter: Night Dreamer
7) Wayne Shorter: Etcetera
8) McCoy Tyner: The Real McCoy
9) McCoy Tyner: Soliloquy
10) Ginger Baker Coward of the County
11) Herbie Hancock: Maiden Voyage
12) Jackie McLean: Dynasty
13) Mal Waldron: You and the Night and the Music
14) Joe Henderson: Inner Urge
15) Joe Henderson: So Near, So Far
16) Andrew Hill: Andrew!
17) Sheila Jordan: Lost and Found
18) Bobby Hutcherson: Stick Up
19) Bobby Hutcherson: Total Eclipse
20) Dexter Gordon: Go
21) Dave Holland Quintet: Prime Directive
22 Dave Holland Octet: Pathways
23) Stan Getz: Windows
24) Stan Getz: live in Paris
25) John McLaughlin: Extrapolation
26) Shakti: A Handful of Beauty
27) Oregon: 1974
28) Oregon: Out of the Woods/Roots In the Sky
29) Milton Nacimiento: Clube Da Esquina
30) Chick Corea: Now He Sings; Now He Sobs
31) Chick Corea/RTF: Return To Forever
32) Chick Corea/RTR: Light as a Feather
33) Chick Corea/Gary Burton: Crystal Silence
34) Bobo Stenson/Jan Garbarek: Witchi Tai To
35) K. Jarrett: Belonging
36) Keith Jarrett European Quartet: Sleeper
37) Pat Metheny: Bright Size Life
38) Kenny Garret: Songbook
39) Kenny Wheeler: Deer Wan
40) Flora Purim: Perpetual emotion
41) J. L. Ponty: Aurora
42) Pat Martino: Exit
43) Pentangle: Basket of light
44) Pentangle: Sweet Child
45) Cedar Walton: Eastern Rebellion
46) Art Farmer: Blame It On My Youth
47) Larry Coryell: Tricycles
48) John Scofield/J. Lovano: Meant to Be
49): NHOP: Unforgettable NHOP Trio Live
50) Joe Lovano: Landmarks
51) Woody Shaw: Live in Bremen
52) Woody Shaw: United
53) Michel Petrucciani: Complete Live in Germany
54) Michel Petrucciani: Live at Village Vanguard
55) Stanley Cowell: Live
56) Billy Harper: Soul of an Angel
57) Grant Green: Idle Moments
58) Jackie Ryan: You and the Night and the Music
59) Vincent herring: Simple Pleasure
60) Jackie Ryan: Doozy
61) Tina May: More Than You Know
62) Tina May: I Never Told You
63) Lindsay Lou and the Flatbellies: Ionia
64) Stray Birds: Magic Fire
65) Birds of Chicago Live
66) Railroad Earth: Last of the Outlaws
67) Gillian Welch: Boots Number One
68) Peter Rowman/Tony Rice: Quartet
69) Kris Delmhorst: Songs For A Hurricane
70) Neil Casal: Fade Away Diamond Time
71) Jorma Kaukonen: Quah
72) Joni Mitchell: Miles of Aisles
73) Steely Dan: Countdown to Ecstasy
74) Steely Dan: Pretzel Logic
75) Steely Dan: Katy Lied
76) Courtney Marie Andrews: Honest Life
77) Patrick Park: Everyone’s In Everyone
78) Patty Griffin: Impossible Dream
79) Patrick Park: Love Like Swords
80) Steve Forbert: Alive On Arrival
81) Steve Forbert: Young Guitar Days
82) John Prine: The Missing years
83) John Prine: Fair and Square
84) Richard, Linda Thompson: I Want To See the Bright Lights Tonight
85) Big Brother: Cheap Thrills
86) Hendrix: First Ray of the New Rising Sun
87) Hendrix: Band of Gypsys Box Set: Songs For Groovy Children
88) Who: Whos’ Next
89) Pete Townshend: Who Came First
90) Stones: Exile on Main Street
91) Neil Young: Carnegie Hall 1970
92) Loggins and Messina: Mother Lode
93) Dylan: Blonde On Blonde
94) Dylan: Tell Tale Signs
95) Grateful Dead: Skull and Roses
96) Butterfield Blues Band: East West
97) Emmy Lou Harris: Luxury Liner
98) Emmy Lou Harris: Pieces of the Sky
99) Lucinda Williams: Car Wheels on a Gravel Road
100) Lucinda Williams: Lucinda Williams
90) Rodney Crowell: Ain’t Livin’ Long Like This
91) Brian Auger: Second Wind
92) Albert Collins: Ice Pickin’
94) Taj Mahal: The Real Thing
95) Beatles : White Album
96) Stevie Wonder: Innervisions
97) Little Feat: Waiting For Columbus
98) Janis Joplin: Pearl
99) John Mayall : Blues Breakers with Eric Clapton
100) Blind Faith
This is really hard. Ask me next week and I’ll probably come up with a different list.
My list will be made up of some pretty obscure recordings, comprised of: prog, jazz, and classical (mostly from the mid 20th century up through the present era).
My numbering got screwed up, but I believe there are 100.
Problem with list like these, since there are so many more pieces of music, that I consider at the same level as these, ask me a different day, and quite a few of these would be different.
1) Yes - Close to the Edge
2) King Crimson - Larks’ Tongues in Aspic
3) Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
4) Banco del Mutuo Soccorso - Io Sono Nato Libero
5) National Health - Of Queues and Cures
6) PFM - Per un Amico
7) Magma - K.A (Köhntarkösz Anteria)
8) Arti e Mestieri - Tilt
9) Gentle Giant - In a Glass House
10) Änglagård - Hybris
11) Thinking Plague - In Extremis
12) Henry Cow - Western Culture
13) Univers Zero - Uzed
14) Hatfield and the North - S/T
15) Area - Arbeit Macht Frei
16) Eskaton - 4 Visions
17) Yes - Relayer
18) King Crimson - Red
19 ) Banco del Mutuo Socorrso - Darwin!
20) Il Balletto di Bronzo - YS
21) Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane
22) Gentle Giant - Octopus
23) Deus Ex Machina - Equilibrismo da Insofferenza
24) Anglagard - Viljans Öga
25) Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
26) Echolyn - ...as the World
27) IQ - The Road of Bones
28) Art Zoyd - Symphonie Pour Le Jour Où Brûleront Les Cités
29) Frank Zappa - One Size Fits All
30) ELP - Brain Salad Surgery
31) PFM - Storia di un Minuto
32) Magma - Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh
Genesis - Selling England by the Pound
Echolyn - Suffocating the Bloom
Le Orme - Felona e Sorona
Van Der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
Van Der Graaf Generator - Godbluff
Camel - Mirage
Magma - Ëmëhntëhtt-Ré
33) Mahavishnu Orchestra -Inner Mounting Flame
34) John Coltrane - A Love Supreme
35) Oregon - Out of the Woods
36) Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior
37) Weather Report - Black Market
38 ) Anthony Braxton - Six Compositions: Quartet
39) The Art Ensemble of Chicago - Urban Bushman
40) Brand X - Unorthodox Behavior
41) Ralph Towner - Solo Concerts
42) Eberdard Weber - Cholours of Chloe
43) John Abercrombie - Timeless
44) Mahavishnu Orchestra - The Lost Trident Sessions
45) Szobel - Szobel
46) McCoy Tyner - The Real McCoy
47) Alice Coltrance - Ptah, The El Daoud
48) Pharaoh Sanders - Karma
49) Kemasi Washington - The Epic
50) Keith Jarrett - Koln Concerts
51) Allan Holdsworth - Metal Fatigue
52) Miles Davis - Sketches of Spain
53) Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
54) Bruford - One of a Kind
55) Terje Rypdal - Whenever I Seem to Be Far Away
56) Steve Coleman and the Five Elements - The Sonic Language of Myth
57) Steve Coleman’s Natal Eclipse - Morphogenesis
58) Ralph Towner - Solstice
59) Allan Holdsworth - I.O.U.
Oregon - Roots in the Sky
Iceberg - Sentiments
Miles Davis - In a Silent Way
Weather Report - Heavy Weather
John Coltrane - Ascension
Dave Holland - Conference of Birds
The Art Ensemble of Chicago - People of Sorrow
McCoy Tyner - Sahara
Anthony Braxton - 4 Compositions: Quartet
60) Elliott Carter - Concerto for Orchestra
61) Elliott Carter - Variations for orchestra
62) Elliott Carter - Piano Concerto
63) Charles Wuorinen - 4th Piano Concerto
64) Charles Wuorinen - Iridule – 2006, for oboe and six players
65) Joan Tower - Concerto for Orchestra
66) Joan Tower - Silver Ladders
67) Alban Berg - Violin Concerto
68) Bruno Maderna - 3rd Oboe Concerto
69) Charles Wuorinen - Microsymphony
70) Unsuk Chin - Violin Concerto No. 1
71) Krzysztof Penderecki - Violin Concerto No. 2: Metamorphosen
72) Ernst Krenek - Static and Ecstatic
73) Joseph Schwantner - Percussion Concerto
74) Milton Babbitt - Composition for 12 instruments
75) Milton Babbitt - Concerti for Orchestra
76 ) Magnus Lindberg - Concert for Orchestra
77) Magnus Lindberg - Piano Concerto
78) Arnold Schoenberg - Variations for Orchestra
79) Bartok - Music for percussion, strings, and celesta
80) Samuel Barber - Piano Concerto
81) Stravinsky - Rite of Spring
82) Augusta Read Thomas - Eos: Goddess of Light
83) Harrison Birtwistle - Earth Dances
There are quite a few avant-garde prog albums bands, avant-garde jazz, and atonal and dissonant classical in those lists. Not always an easy listen.
So, YMMV with a large part of my list, especially the classical.
... and there might be none on your list that I would want. For example, the sound of a classically trained voice is like fingernails on a blackboard, to my ears/brain. How would this be relevant, should you post a list? What if I were to say to you "Opera? Yech! How can you stand to listen to that "?
Your subjective tastes are not some sort of universal standard by which to measure others’ esthetic preferences.
@slaw...Elvis Costello is one of my favorite male vocalists, but since I only have 100 albums to choose from forever, I picked mine for the music and for being able to listen to over and over and over. Couldn't choose one.
I left a TON of artists off I'm sure, but again, it's much harder than you'd think. I encourage everyone to try and see for yourself...
I am not sure who this is meant for, but I will assume it was for me, since it closely follows my list, and it mentions a couple of prog artists, as well as classical composer.
First of all, as I stated in my 3rd paragraph before my list starts, there are quite a few other bands, musicians, composers that could have made my list. And Jethro Tull is certainly 1 of them. I could have easily had Thick as a Brick, or Passion Play on my 1st list. Wakeman, as great a musician as he is, his solo work does nothing for me. It sounds overblown, and a bit cliché to me. With Yes, he is phenomenal.
Second, as far as Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and other tonal, "common practice" composers go, I find them boring and predictable. My interest in classical music didn’t start until I discovered: atonal, serial, avant-garde, 12 tone, spectralism, ’new complexity’, and, generally, ’thorny’, challenging classical music. Now I am almost obsessed.
And third, I have yet to really get into opera, and not for a lack of trying. I have listened to Alban Berg’s "LuLu" and "Wozzeck", Harrison Birtwistle’s "Minotaur", and while they do have some potential for me to get into them more, I am just so busy discovering non-opera classical music, I just do not have the time.
And for me, it is not because I do not like classically trained voices. I have quite a few contemporary classical pieces, that do have classically trained vocals, but it is not opera.
And lastly, I have a fair number of classical recordings from the likes of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc, from when I was trying to get into classical music many years ago. And every once and a while, I will play something in hopes of having tonal, common practice classical music click with me, but so far, no go.
I will just stick with Carter, Webern, Babbitt, Berio, Maderna, Tower, etc, etc.
I read that as a pretty amazing post...
Music is not about tonality versus atonality... Etc...
Music is about visible architecture and rythmical times ....And musical time is way more complex than physical time...
I prefer Persian and Indian music or chinese and japan to all dodecaphonic , seralism and other for me artificial written system with no possible historical emotional background for the musician interpretation ... It is music without history or feelings...Boring in a word... Silence is better... I dont deny that some of these works can be interesting and they are , like Berg concerto for example...
i valued improvisation and musician microdynamic management and emotional investment in his improvised interpretation of classical music....
Music is about feeling, willing, and thinking...It is a tool to put consciousness to another level...It is why musical time with his 2 dimensions, horizontal and vertical, instead of a line or instead of a timeless set of notes, is so complex...
In serialism music is disconnected of the natural rythms of human metabolism ...Rythms and times may be cosmical but must not loose their link with the human body... Scriabin i admired so much succeeded in doing this...
You cannot call Bach "art of the fugue " boring... You make me smile at least... 😊
You cannot call Beethoven quartets "boring" and hoping to be taken seriously...Sorry... 😊
Boring means : no surprize, no complexities, no emotions...
I think that the most boring music ever written is the music by Shoenberg serialism...There is no "time" in this music...It is really a simplistic music... A music where rythmical times are evacuated and we are let in a no man’s land of sounds ... This music attracted no more any great interest because composers need a public and need interpreters more than they need a "fancy" abstract new language...
You had never seen what is in Bach art of the fugue , it is like calling Euclidean geometry boring... It is not even wrong, it reflect only your limit not the Euclid geometry status ...
And you cannot answer to me that serialism is like fractal geometry compared to Euclidean geometry... Because in music time is the central concept and rythm of times not deconstructed forms as Mandelbrot geometry deconstructing Euclidean concepts of dimensions...Because music is rythms of time and times of rythm not visual forms not mere "notes" systems...Serialism is like Chaos theory compared to complexity theory, in complexity theory we see how emerge order from chaos... Serialism is born from classical musical history, it is a "moment" of this history, not his culmination and his abolition in timelessness..
Most of the composers you like had no interest at all for me...Because they lost rythm and time... Musician playing this are robots...
I prefer Charles Ives and Scriabin... Scriabin is a genius who unlike Schoenberg did not create an algebraic system , his genius dictated and improvized his last sonatas between tonality and atonality in a clever way... There is a place for emotions there ...
For opera try Akhnaten of Philip Glass a masterpiece ressuscitating the spirit of Egypt ...
For something different try : Ostad elahi...Supreme master of rythms...
Or Nikhil Banerjee...A god in India...
And you will see what is "non boring" music...
I prefer Sun Ra to Schoenberg... Each one has his gods i imagine... 😊
Anyway i apologize for my answer... It is very interesting to have so divergent oppposite opnion... Dont take it personal... I like discussion...
You are not as the average dude then my post is not only a complete reversal of your opinion but a compliment to someone who dare to speak his mind...
Music is rythms as the heart is rythms and the cosmos rythms and we need Nature to recognize cosmic rythms and musical history to understand music...We cannot reduce nature to transhumanism 2.0 and reduce music to serialism... Listen to African speaking Yoruba drummers masters to know about non boring music ...Not Schoenberg..
I am just stating a personal preference, I am not making any statements on the musical theory.
I just know, that for me, classical music that does happen to be tonal, I find predictable and boring.
That is certainly part of what is about. And complex time signatures and rhythms is one of the things that draws me to post WWII classical music.
I also like Indian and Persian music, Chinese and Japanese, not so much.
And it is nice for you, that you enjoy them more than serial music. I do not.
I am not sure why the lack of historical background is at all important. And I am also not conceding that that is even true. And I have no problems getting all sorts of emotional impact and content from post WWII classical music.
I also have to mention, that serialism is only a small part of the classical music I listen to. Elliott Carter is probably my favorite composer, and in his very long career (he lived to the age of 103, and was composing up until he died), and he never composed a serial piece in all that time.
I am 100% agreement!
While listening to the classical music that I like, I am constantly feeling, willing, and thinking, and I much more often than not, transported to different levels of consciousness. There have been more times than I can count, where my wife will come into my sound room, and I am so transported by the music of Carter, Wuorinen, Berio, or some other ’thorny’ sounding music, and I am completely unaware of her presence.
Again, you are talking only about serialism. The majority of the classical music I listen to, is not serial.
And, even if true, I am not sure why being disconnected from the rhythms of the human body are important, or why I should care?
It’s almost as if you think there is only one way to listen to music, and there is only a limited list of reasons to listen, or attributes that are important.
You’re not implying, that you have the ’correct’ way of listening, and I, and others that enjoy some atonal and thorny sounding music, are incorrect?
I did not say they were boring. I said they were boring TO ME.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t both of our musical tastes and opinions, subjective?
When I listen to those composers, all I hear, is emotions that are obvious and predictable. The classical music I listen to, for me, is also loaded with emotional content, but is not broadcast in neon. It takes some work to understand it, then it will reveal the emotional content. It just takes a different way of listening, than the obvious (to me) emotional content of Beethoven.
I admit Beethoven and Bach have emotion in their compositions, it is just too obvious for me. And yes, I find both of them, (and Mozart, Mahler, Brahms, etc,) to be completely unsurprising.
The classical music I listen to is as complex as any you mention, it is just complex in different ways.
And once again, you continue to talk about nothing but serialism, which I will say again, is just a small portion of the classical music I listen to.
They did not lose rhythm, they just express it in more complex ways. Sometimes over short fragments of music, other times, over the entire piece, with different rhythmic fragments returning, and being modified. There is quite a bit of symmetry in quite a bit of post WWII classical music, it is just expressed differently. It just takes a different way of listening.
As far as Philip Glass goes. I used to be a fan of minimalism, now, not so much.
As far as Indian classical music goes, I am a fan. I have a decent collection.
And I am also a fan of Sun Ra, although, I do like other avant-garde jazz musicians a bit better. Anthony Braxton, who I have on my list of 100. I probably own about 10 Sun Ra recordings, and saw him live a couple of times.
And again, you continue to go back to Schoenberg and serialism, when the vast majority of the classical music I listen to, is not serial. Not to mention, that Schoenberg, is nowhere near my favorite composer.
I reacted to your provocative claim about Bach being boring for YOU....If you were in pop music i would have not reacted...
For sure , the music you call "thorny" is mostly boring for me...
Then we are on the same subjective footing ...
I, as you did , gave my take...
Music is for me always intimately related to a historical tradition... Be it Persian or classicaL OR jazz...
And for me music is related to body rythms and not only to the mind...
Then any composer who go to far and cut too much link with his tradition appear a bit boring to me and not healthy...
But as you said it is subjective and we even may like the same composer with our own different reasons...
But claiming to be "bored" by Bach art of the fugue and the last quartets of Beethoven is astounding for me coming from someone liking music...
It is a gesture ....😊
You like to be provocative , i reacted...
For me Scriabin or Sorabji or Robert Simpson are not less a giant than Carter...They are not "thorny" for sure...
Take my answer as a "gesturing" answer like your post was...😊
No one go on the same road to the same house... You are right about that...
My best to you...
I think the most important thing to consider, is context.
We are both debating about classical music, a genre that is only purchased by a few percent of the music buying public.
So, as much as you think the classical music you love is loaded with so much more emotion than the classical music I love, and I may think the the same about the classical music I love...the vast majority of the music buying public is almost oblivious about classical music entirely.
I mean, all you have to do is look at the lists on this thread. You and I are the only ones to mention classical music at all. And this is a forum loaded with music lovers that listen to music that is not in the mainstream.
This is precisely why i reacted to your post the way i did...
Most people will feel Bach art of the fugue and Beethoven last quartets as "boring"...
I perfectly understand that you love Elliott Carter... Or any "thorny " contemporary " atonal or others music...
I did not understood "boring" associated with Monteverdi or Gesualdo or Bach...
Most people had never learn about music anyway, they dont listen not only Carter or Bach, but they put commercial pop music at the center...
Music is deeply rooted in the human body and soul... What we listen to we become...
One thing i discovered is music is less about our tastes than about the way we learn how to hear and how to listen...
Then when they defend their "tastes" they advocate in fact for their limitations... As i did in a way criticizing your "tastes" and advocating for my tastes... I am not perfect.... 😊 I must learn about Eliott Carter more.... Because doing so i will die with more in me than my limited tastes...I will acquire new one...😁
@mahgister: I love your line "Because doing so I will die with more in me than my limited tastes."
After watching my mother die a slow and painful death from brain cancer when I was 14-15 years old, I thought "So that’s it? She’s just gone? Does the soul live on?" Yeah, I know.....questions as old as man.
I decided then and there to assume that what we take with us into the great beyond is that which we absorb into our beings as we live this short life. To me that meant the arts, first and foremost music, which, I believe, reaches deepest into our soul.
Albert Einstein: "Life without playing music is inconceivable for me. I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music. I get most joy in life out of music."
I definitely recognize that I’m limited by my tastes -- as time goes on, I’m finding less and less music that I want to buy. As mentioned above, I’ve never enjoyed the sound of Classical Vocals. It’s not the music. It’s what I experience as an overall highly exaggerated, unnatural and off-putting quality of the sound.
It’s not clear to me how one could "learn to listen" to a sound that one finds inherently unpleasant/annoying. Care to expound further?
I don't mean to "pick on" Classical singers but this just happens to be one of the genres most affected by the limiting aspects of my taste.
I’ll be very short:
That genie should bring me 100 that
1. aren’t listed here -- pure mainstream so far
2. not part of any rock/jazz/classical mainstream
3. lots of them should be from Berlin School and 80’s Japanese jazz artists
4. it must include ALL albums from the following bands: Zoviet France and Der Club of Gore
After all, why should I stress genie for Linda Ronstadt or ELP. Plenty of those are still in the bins of the thrift stores...
First we cannot replace our musical tastes favorites by other musical choices , especially for example in classical vocal music if we dont like it in general...
Second we must stay open heart and listen to some one dat that can open this closed door for us which is vocal classical music... No doing so this new vocal classical music will not change our basic tastes... They will only improve it by enlarging our scope and deepening our relation with our innate tastes choices...
Third we cannot learn how to listen to "sounds" which are annoying for us...But in all the vocal classical there is songs thar are in now way exagerately annoying... Miracles of naturalness exist... Miracles of expressions that transcend vocal classical to manifest the art of pure expression and not mere singing even beautifully...
I will give 2 examples...
If you dont cry listening that you need a heart...It is no more singing...Because she pray really, she dont merely sing...
The number of singers able to sing like this are more numerous in heaven than on earth 😊
Now the same in his prime younger years :
MarIan anderson never studied too much formally and being black opera and lied singer goes up to the top of the world by his voice power alone ...
She can sing ANYTHING, jazz, spirituals, operas, lieds or Bach and be the best there is... It is my favorite singer.... I was shoked when i listened to her the first time... By the way as you i dont like vocal music so much... But there is exceptions... These are some of the exceptions...
Now another contralto;Aafje Heynis
Another contralto sublime: Kathleen Ferrier...on par with Marian Anderson , which is a feat almost impossible to do...
now another register :
And a modern opera to help you....
And now serious thing with only celestial voices:
Now my favorite choral music album of all time :
I listened to it really more than one thousand evenings, i had counted it really ...😊
Schutz was coming back from Italia...He combined styles and created for me his most astounding work, with a rythmic expressive power putting him beside Bach who admired him... This music is like a " drug" , it move us creatively by stimulating enthusiasm....
Close the door, listen and it will not change your taste... It will open your mind to voices from another realm...
I know this post was not aimed at me, but since I was part of the conversation with @mahgister , I will reply.
Concerning your 2nd paragraph, my entire evolution in listening to music, has been one case of "learning to listen" to music I initially found "unpleasant".
When I first got into prog (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, PFM, Banco, etc), which for the most part, is full of music that is pleasant sounding. Someone recommended the band Gentle Giant to me. When I tried to listen to them, I was initially taken aback by the dissonances they use, and it made no sense to me. It sounded wrong to me. So, I put their recordings on my shelf and ignored them for probably close to a year. Fast forward many months, and after listening to many other prog bands, I decided to take them off the shelf and give them another listen. It was like a light went off in my brain. What made no sense just months before, was brilliant now. They almost immediately became one of my favorite bands, and remain so until this day.
It happened again with entire avant-prog subgenre of prog. This is an entire subgenre that, as described by ProgArchices.com, as:
Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:
I did not like anything in this subgenre for years, but then, after spending more time getting used to what these bands were doing, it just started making sense.
And once again, it happened with atonal and avant-garde classical music, and a big part I think was brought about by love for the aforementioned, avant-prog. I guess my mind was already prepped to hear atonality and dissonance of avant-prog, the same attributes in classical music just made sense.
I guess, I didn't really explain how it happened, except to say, that it happened over time, and usually in quite small increments.
At first, it was small bit of 'unpleasantness', maybe like a musical section that is supposed to represent war, death, or madness*, that, despite being 'unpleasant', in context to what the music is portraying, sounds 'right', and loaded with emotion. Then, overtime, those dark and atonal bits, start to have their own sorts of beauty.
*For example: the instrumental middle section of 'Gates of Delirium' by Yes. It is meant to represent a battle.
Or, 'Plague of the Lighthouse Keepers' by Van Der Graaf Generator. The 23 minute piece represents a lighthouse keeper slowly going mad, and suicidal, from loneliness and abandonment.
It's hard for me to imagine representing either, without using dissonance and atonality. Which some hear as unpleasant, but I hear as loaded with emotion.
@mahgister Quick fix:
with a simple statement of “in my opinion,” or “in my experience” cures such statements of their erroneousness.
Everyone’s opinion is valid. One may be better at arguing the usefulness of their opinion than another, but this has no bearing on the validity of a person’s opinion.
8,000,000,000 people here, each of them with a definition of what music “is” and what music “is about,” each of them perfectly valid.
Again, beyond “created sound,” there is virtually no practical definition for what music “is” or what it “is about.”
I will add that we are in the same situation with the question of what a "sound" is...
There is no scientific consensus about sound and hearing... what is a sound perceptive quality and information and how we access it ...
We know though a little bit more than what you just said here... This is your opinion indeed but not a fact...
First one thing is sure, music created by man is a "sound" production related to the human body/brain/ears ... This is not my opinion here... But a fact...
Then there exist a root of this created "sounds" in the human body...Music and language are born together and are coming from the same root which is the body tripartite basic systems.. ...This is also a fact...
Must i add that this is my opinion to calm you ? ... 😊
Music is not about our taste only , music must be learned the same way in which we must learn how to act our body , that was one of my point; then there exist some different music with different healing and informative power...All is not purely relativistic and about our given "tastes" here as you seems to suggest ... Music grounded in a tradition has not the same value for me than commercial music... And yes the line delimiting them is not clear at all... This is a fact and also an opinion here... 😁
Sorry but there is a value hierarchy that cannot be imposed but is easily spotted by musicians learning their trade... A yoruba drummer for example know this, he know the difference between meaningful rythm which "speak" and rythm which did not "speak" in his language ...
( the best book on music i read is about yoruba drum and sound perception and meaning by the way ) 😋
As in litterature, harlequin litterature is not Dostoievsky or Mark Twain...
i will add that is is my opinion for sure ...
Who s opinion could it be ? mine...
is it the absolute truth ?
But i bet i am not alone here with this OPINION.... 😊
In litterature as in music we MUST LEARN how to understand and appreciate, because our innate taste means little, it is a beginning not an end ...Comic books are not Kafka...
By the way each musical traditions contains an history of consciouness through the way the spirit/body relate to sound in a specific way , extending in millenia sometimes...It is a fact not my opinion ...
Do not say then that in your opinion, all opinions about music are equal, because they are not...
No more in music than in litteratrure and science.... Music is not only a consumers leisure tasteful choice... It is way more IN MY OPINION... 😊
By the way my statements are not " erroneous" they are incomplete .... Calling them "my opinion" or not had nothing to do with their POSSIBLE meaning has you suggested in your own unsatisfying and at the end erroneous relativistic perspective...
Music express sacredness and values not only esthetical arbitrary meaningless choice as a consumer purchasing a product instead of another...
Music also contain a part of our consciouness history which is hidden in sounds and rythms...
This is why all musical traditions of the world matter and why we must learn from EACH OF THEM... This has nothing to do about tastes...
@mahgister “There is no scientific consensus about sound and hearing... what is a sound perceptive quality and information and how we access it ...“
We are humans that experience music.
If the answer is yes, then not even Ludwig Van Beethoven himself can “tell” me, or you, or anyone, what music “is” with absolute authority.
First i dont know about which post of mine you talked about ?
I never suggested and spoke HERE about people listening Bach or Beatles on a cell phone as inferior to audiophile with acoustic room ...
I said listening music as hearing sounds must be LEARNED not only by babies and children growing but even by us adults... THATS IS A FACT...
Then dont put in my mouth your own limited opinion or understanding or prejudices ...
Kafka is better than harlequin books in LITTERARY VALUE but i dont judge people liking harlequin by saying so... did you understand ? The reason is simple, we must all learn and grow... Myself included... i already say that in my discussion with simonmoon who put something interesting in motion ... I dont pretend to any authorithy, but this dont means that i am a total ignorant either ..
For sure music is not a mere "subjective" mess randomly distributed in all cultures, that we must treat as superficial subjective tastes in a relativistic manner as you suggested ...Those who think so are ignorant thats all...I apologize to say so but i say it... It is MY OPINION HERE...
Pygmies Polyphony and Bach polyphonies has something in common : they express something very deep about the spirit and grounded in history... This is A FACT not my opinion... The taste of someone liking Bach and pygmies polyphonies or not dont change THE FACTS....
Music is based on the body/brain/ throat/heart/soul/ etc music is ROOTED in the human metabolism and music is grounded in the way human related to each other and communicate and perceive the world...THIS IS OBJECTIVE FACT....
Then it is not mere" subjectivity"...This is the starting point to understand the VALUES of the different manifestation of music... Commercial music is not yoruba drumming... The content is not the same at all.... The experience is not the same at all ... The goal and the richness is not the same at all... Each one of us we had our "tastes"...But they dont matter at all here...
There is an objective grounding in the physical and spiritual BODY...Music is not only a mere hobby here music is not only a mere commercial enterprise ...Sorry...
Perhaps for you it is a mere hobby and a product to consume following our "tastes"... It is more for me and it is more for those who studied music and philosophy of music ...And i am one even if i dont claim any authorithy as you LABELLED ME ... I discussed with simonmoon and we tried to understand each other , imitate him instead of cornering me and putting something in my mouth...
Music is not only a deep therapeutical means, WHICH IS ALSO AN OBJECTIVE FACT and this is an OBJECTIVE fact too: it is also, even if you ignore it, the vehicle of human consciousness as manifested in certain way in all cultures...
In face of all these deep objective facts, saying that all is about "tastes", and consumers choices is not only childish and preposterous, it is useless as an opinion HERE in this discussion ...
And yes i can speak seriously on this matter, i never pretended to any authority, but i object and it is my opinion , i object to superficiality and relativism and consumerism ...
Music is not mere subjectivity , no more than sound is just a mere subjective phenomenon... I can demonstrate why but it will take too much place...😊
Inform yourself before put a label on me ...
Thanks to both of you for your very generous responses 🙏
There is only instance I can recall where I changed my mind about music I initially disliked and that was the two recordings by the acoustic version of Return to Forever. For a long time, they sounded extremely light weight and commercial to me. But I kept "returning" to them and then, one day, I enjoyed them and have ever since.
However, that was an aberration -- the exception-- rather than the rule. I’ve tried this "re-listening" tactic with other music (such as Prog -- "A Tab In The Ocean" is one that comes to mind-- ) and consistently failed. All I can conclude is that I’m unusually resistant to being dislodged from the familiar. No doubt there are psychological underpinnings for this that can be explored.
It would appear I’m a bit of an outlier re: your "test" of whether I posses a heart or not because, paradoxically, I’m not immune to the emotion M. A. conveys but neither do I enjoy the vocal esthetic. The latter tends to render the latter moot, in my case. Make of this what you will. ;o)
Of the samples you posted, the two I did enjoy were The Canticles of Ecstasy and the Schutz piece. I related to these not as "music for listening" but due to their strong emphasis on the vibrational aspect as a means of elevating consciousness, more as mantra or bhajan and in so doing, the question of esthetics/taste receded into the background.
That being said, I don’t want to listen to bhajan all the time!
Still, you have succeeded in opening up the possibility that Classical choral music (without orchestral accompaniment) might be something I could enjoy.
Finally, in the interest of accentuating the positive, here is an example of vocal music I have no difficulty enjoying that is not Jazz or any type of western popular music (the sound on the video is fairly quiet -- you may need to turn it up):
I am not born with a taste for the Chinese erhu music nor for the Japan koto...
Any music must be LEARNED....
And love sometimes come when we are ready...
This does not m,eans that i will necessarily love Elliot Carter the way simonmoon argue for his greatness... But simonmoon AWAKE what perhaps will be called my ignorance tomorrow...
Thanks to him...
I never cease to love my innate taste musical choice : choral music all my life... ( not opera that i learned how to appreciate much , much later )
But i learned to appreciate all other music culture and styles ( not so much commercial music ) i did not love so much at first or not at all some music BY IGNORANCE and LACK OF ATTENTION... I prefer to the actual pop commercial music his old roots in folk songs in England for example... By the late Alfred Deller for example...It is my tastes here... 😊
It is normal to have preferences, it is ignorance to reject all the rest for all our life...
That was my point...
i will try Elliott Carter as suggested by simonmoon... I will go slowly because it is not my "taste"... But i will LEARN something and sometimes miracles happen, and our mind open to new unsuspected possibilities...
This is music experience for me... Not only confort, relaxation, feeling, thinking, but the will to go where no one bodly goes... 😊
I never listen any jazz when young nor pop... I learned a lot with trying to understand jazz in the last 20 years...
I thank you for your post... You are very sensible astute man and you get my point completely here thanks very much ...
Music is not ALWAYS about esthetical tastes...It is way more...
Polyphonic pygmies songs act the way Mantras do and Bajhans do and i love very much all of them ...
Here our soul speak... It is way more than just "music taste"... Sacredness exist too...