I have a ModWright Oppo 105D. It’s excellent....but it sure don’t sound like vinyl or tape.
What DACs have you heard that really work like magic on digital audio files?
I am interested in DACs that kill that digital glare/blare, that gives you that sense of ‘blackness’ or ‘darkness’ to the audio soundscape, really letting you hear into the mix...ya know that layering, space and depth that is very evident on tape.
I feel like there needs to be some Cohesity between your system and DAC. I recently went all ATC pre/amp/speakers and tried the Bluesound and absolutely hated the sound. My wife nailed it by saying it was so bright it was obnoxious. I pulled out my old Slimdevices Transporter with the AKM4396 DAC and it does a great job converting to analog. Throw a hi-Rez file at it and it is like a warm drink on a winter day. I can tell I will need to audition future DACs on my system or it will be an expensive case of musical chairs.
depth of soundstage is compressed, the glass between me and ‘the event’ seems thicker and performers more pressed up agaianst it. glare cuts through at moments, glare also enlarges and distorts the scale of instruments....
I suggest you use reference quality CDs for your evaluation. Chesky Records offers one for testing system performance. Or use a known high quality source recording; it should sound spacious and transparent.
The fact that you experience glare on playback points toward the shortcomings of your DAC or DAC/transport. The other flaws you're hearing may also be attributed to the DAC.
n80 ”The Heart wants what it wants - or else it does not care”
Emily Dickinson
Yes he hit the nail on the head. We hear what we want to hear. There are as many different signature sounds coming from different DAC designed chips, different DAC configurations, budget and older ones. Transports and AC supply can introduce noise and change the sound. Different manufacturers with philosophies and implementation which have altered approaches. Having said all that, we all like what WE ourselves like. Same with speakers, turntables, amps and preamps. Someone told me once that the pops and clicks on most albums can be eliminated, since quite often that sound does not come from scratches, but dirt and debris deep in the grooves of the album. A good deep cleaning can really clear that noise out, but how many analog audiophiles have the tools and take the time to do that? Perhaps some audiophiles like the sound of those pops and clicks on albums for nostalgic, sentimental or other reasons. We like what we like...
i now have reel to reel tape in my system. With this extra point of reference, now having heard vinyl, tape and digital, I can really hear ‘digital’ when I listen to it.
depth of soundstage is compressed, the glass between me and ‘the event’ seems thicker and performers more pressed up agaianst it. glare cuts through at moments, glare also enlarges and distorts the scale of instruments. and there seems to be less contrast, less quiet, less space for me and my ears. It’s a bit like digital is shouting at all times (regardless of volume), like digital is an ‘all on’ proposition with no off.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but the writer in this article finds that the Audio Research CD9’s DAC creates analog-like sound, even compares it to vinyl. Not sure if the DAC can be used separate from the transport.
Emm Labs DA2 is one such DAC that can END your quest.
Not if your goal is for digital to sound like vinyl. The DA2 is a SOTA DAC that makes music sound like music. But it certainly doesn't sound anything like vinyl or else I wouldn't own it as I can't stand the vinyl sound.
I think you need to accept the fact that digital and analog are going to sound different, just like most sources (digital and analog) sound different from each other.
It comes down to what you like and find enjoyable. I have an Oppo 105D and am familiar with it. I also had an Oppo HA-1 headphone amp for a while. The Oppos are "digital" sounding. I don't find the sound unpleasant, but I have a number of DACs that I prefer - my Auralic Vega is the best of the bunch. The DAC in my Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amp is also very nice.
Recently I purchased a used MHDT Orchid and have found this to be a very nice sounding DAC.
What all of these DACs have in common is a "warmer" sound.
The Orchid is a R2R non-oversampling DAC with a tube buffer. It "only" does 24/192, no MQA, no DSD, but I've been using it in my computer system and find it very detailed but without a lot of the harshness sometimes associated with digital. With the Orchid you can "roll" both the tubes and the DAC chip if you're into that sort of thing. Mine came with a couple of extra tubes and DAC chips, but I haven't tried making any changes yet.
After my experience with the Orchid, I would recommend checking it or some of the other R2R DACs out.
I have heard a cd v vinyl comparison using the modright oppo 105 and half the audience preferred the cd which i thought sounded like noise. So be careful who you take advice from. I am sure a good digital solution is out there but like you I'm still looking.
Two dacs of late have given me the " digital is the new nirvana" feelings.
My own Ayon S3 tube DAC, I stream Quboz hirez via an Aries Mini to the Ayon then out via xlr to my Ayre ax7e.
And the best compliment I can come up with is that it sounds like vinyl. No glare or harshness anywhere, maybe it is just a tad rounded off with some slight loss of detail but I can listen for HOURS!.
I was extremely lucky ( or cursed!) to be able to try a Chord DAVE in my system of late. Oh my. Same analog sound but more detailed and broader deeper soundstage. Just WOW really. And that is the cursed part .. Lol. Need to cook up some legal scheme to find 10k to pay for one.
@brettmcee I've been following this thread to try and get a better understanding of exactly what you're looking for, but I'm still not sure I have a good picture of it.
I notice some people have mentioned the Lumin DACs with transformer-coupled outputs. I agree that they might fit your criteria as being very close to what you'd hear from an actual turntable setup. The Neko Audio D100 DAC that I designed also uses transformer-coupled outputs and I would put it in similar company.
But sometimes people looking for an analog sounding DAC aren't looking for what sounds like a turntable setup, but rather something that sounds a bit less dry and instead more engaging and warm. Or just something that doesn't sound like there's some veil or hash in the high frequencies while everything else being the same.
Every ModWright I have heard sounds like Sony with more space. Not analogue at all. The Oppo is not a very good sounding CD transport like most universal transports. Example is that if you burn your CD's to a thumb drive it will sound better than the disc spinner.
Because of this, the ModWright may not be what you use with an outboard DAC because you are not even using the mods you paid for.
Best for CD playback is a native Red Book transport not a universal. It takes big bucks for the universal to start sounding good because of the engineering fixes the manufacturers do to optimize the transport.
The most analogue sounding I have heard while not just darkening the info and coloring it is from Aesthetix.
Denafrips DACs do it for me. I have the Pontus and rate it very highly for its density and, at the same time its delicacy. I use it with Roon and Tidal via an Antipodes DS server/streamer and am continally amazed at the amount of information on a CD that is just waiting for the right equipment with which to reveal it.
@musichead , yes the Analog Devices chips really are different than the new production.
My transport is a PS Audio PWT which uses a buffer to clock the data. Then I have an iFi iPurifier using a Swagman Labs upgraded LPS to the Audio Note. Then adding a High Fidelity CT-2 SPDIF cable was a major upgrade. I demoed it and even though it cost $1100, I had to have it. Its unlike any other cable I've heard.
From my Bluesound Node 2i I'm using an Empirical Design coax with a Cullen PC. Using good quality power cords really upgrade performance of digital.
All these suggestions are amazing people! Thank you.
...so I already own the ModWright Oppo 105D which many consider an excellent player (but now hearing tape in my system I see/hear all that is not quite right with digital). Most assuredly the Oppo is gonna stay in my system for the foreseeable future.
In the meantime, what is a very solid and noticeable DAC upgrade from the Oppo, on the used market, costing between $500-$1000? It does not need to do DSD, but something that could handle 24/196 via optical, coaxial or usb.
I have a Music Hall 25.3 DAC that I haven’t listened to in years, might hook that up. I can’t imagine the Music Hall is going to best the Oppo, but I’ll give it a shot.
I am finding the same with my Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC which uses the same AD 1865 chip. Contrast is what I hear within recordings and from CD to CD with older masterings sounding better. I use the Cambridge Audio CXC transport which has a reclocker, curious what reclocker you use? or is it a built in one?
I’m using a NOS Audio Note 2.1 Signature with reclocker and can easily hear differences in recordings and mastering; ie, original flat CD transfers vs. remasters vs. modern loud CDs. Many CDs have the "wall of sound" compression, early CDs typically are spacious, more dynamic, and organic (analogue-like).
I own the various early issue Hendrix CDs mastered in W. Germany and they sound like analogue tape reproducing studio depth, off-mike sounds, and clear vocals. There are two versions of "Are You Experienced," one with NR and one without.
The Resolution Audio Cantata system sounds really good; natural, refined, no digital nasties. Metrum, also. At more stratospheric prices, well, Nagra and TotalDac.
Too much information? No its just information not resolved or framed well. A good DAC or CD player shouldn't do this. My evaluation technique is to not actively listen and see if the sound draws me into the performance or is it a wall of sound or becomes annoying in the background. How it hits me on a subconscious level. In my experience vinyl kills digital when evaluated this way.
Is it me or does digital often feel like too much information? Maybe too much of what isn’t essential...? Dunno. There is almost a ‘shout’ or ‘all on’ quality to it. I often explain it as the sensation of there being no room for the listener in much of digital playback.
I listened to a 3 3/4 version of Jethro Tulls Aqualung a few nights ago. I didn’t have high expectations cus of the ips and the fact that that album does not sound good on CD.
The tape was a joy to listen to. So integrated, pleasant, cohesive. Wondering Aloud was sublime...perfect.
I over tweaked my A77 MKII until it went boom. Over 20 years ago.
That’s what happens when you push the pleasure button and more pleasure always comes out. You eventually search for a way to explode it as it hits the ground as launched as a supersonic missile...for a shot at maximum pleasure button pressing.. that "uh oh, I think I went too far, now it’s dun busted" thing we all do, at times..
Perhaps I need to get it out of storage and take another kick at and get those reels turning again....speaking about those reels, I've got the 7.5" master copy version of Hnedrix's 'are you experienced'. And that is, by far, the best rendition of that album I think I'll ever hear. Blows all LP versions out of the water. by a country mile.
"Now that I can play back 7 1/2 tape in my system, I can hear what is lacking in both vinyl and digital."
This statement begs the question what is used as the source for copying the content onto the reel. Anything except the original studio recordings, which in almost all cases are on 1"or wider tapes, or direct-to-tape microphone recording, will require an intermediate medium, being vinyl to digital. I guess what you’re saying is you prefer the sound of tape just like someone says I prefer the sound of my CDs better after they’re ripped on a hard drive. Its all about what type of distortion sounds better to you.
Agreed on R2R designs. My HoloSpring Audio Kitsune' level 3 makes even compressed mp3s sound excellent, and CDs and high res sound "analog" in all the good ways...
Can I suggest trying to audition a Mola Mola dac, either Tambaqui or Makua with dac module. Outstanding dac in my opinion. Also attention to seismic vibration isolation and compatible cabling is essential with high performance dacs. My suggestions here would be Ingress footers and Sablon Elite digital cables.
@brettmcee I have a two-box combo, received on loan and subsequently kept: devices come under the unlikely names of "3R Master-time" (reclocker / regenerator/reviver), & "Ayazi Mk-2" (DAC). They are made by a company I’d never heard of before called "Ideon" audio (later found out they had a product called 3R reviewed on TAS).I got these in exchange for my old PS Audio perfect wave -2, so I guess they are most probably inexpensive, or reasonably priced, new. My digital source is a NAS / music library played thru either a PC/ MusiChi or Mac/ Audirvana, the PC /MusiChi being the better of the two. USB cables are the inexpensive Audioquests. Amazingly, the whole thing sounds very good! Best
I am certain digital can sound as good, if not better than, vinyl and tape.
I agree with you, despite being a vinyl fan. My digital rig, for example (see above), sounds similar to my TT, consistently. On occasion it sounds better: for example "Money" on 24/192 supposedly copied from the MT (doubtful). As I said, my rig, my TT, my LP. YMMV
Brett, hearing tape hiss on albums from this analague era is a good thing. It means there is minimal compression during the mastering process. With the natural noise floor of the recording intact, we hear the ambience of the room and separation of instruments.
After upgrading my digital, I went on a tear buying early release Redbook to replace any remasters and CDs with poor SQ. The best were usually mastered in W. Germany followed by Japan. The Japanese like their digital clean and analytical. I'm right there with you on the flat transfers of Zeppelin, Hendrix, Cream. Discogs is the place to go to find the best pressings.
And funny you should mention the remaster of Floyd's WYWH. My Redbook sounds excellent, it may be from the same session as the SACD remix. I own a few of the remasters that were released. I also own some original Japanese PF.
Now that I have good digital playback, it sounds very much like analague, but very dependent on the source material.
I agree with you. Most initial CD pressings are more natural sounding and spacious. I have gotten very close on occasion to getting a real tape feel from my digital setup using older Zeppelin, Hendrix, Genesis and Cream discs.
I think tape noise might be important to space/depth/time. I think it may act as a sort of bias towards signal.
The only remaster so far (which really is a remix) that is better than every other format is the Wish You Were Here SACD. Very nice.
Well I received my Ortho Spectrum AR-2000 Analog Reconstructor the mystical, mythical Japanese filter that's supposed to remove all the digital nasties from the analog signal coming out of ones DAC. Will try it out this weekend and let you all know.
If 74 is your birth year we are the same age. If not you now know how old I am.
I know you are trying to be coy and/or kind about my point of view and/or system and thanks for that I think.
No you are not confused. I’d like to not have to deal with tape and/or vinyl all the time but I want the tape and/or vinyl sound from a digital source. The ritual and fragility of both tape and vinyl is frankly annoying. And honestly I don’t want to listen to my favorite albums or tracks with clicks and pops intermixed all the time.
Now that I can play back 7 1/2 tape in my system, I can hear what is lacking in both vinyl and digital. Above average quality tape feels supremely integrated and without any softening or rounding (or clicks and pops). It has a very natural contrast and excellent reproduction of space/time. Vinyl does some of this but it’s more warm and syrupy sounding. Vinyl, due to its additional mastering phase generally has a pleasant—essentials only—sound. Digital can occasionally do space/time as good as tape and can go get details buried under tape hiss and/or vinyl surface noise. But quite often digital is too stark, there seems to be something extra added to the presentation, something offputting that is never present in vinyl or tape. I believe most often it’s inaudible brief transient overloads of the analog-to-digital processor at time of initial tape capture resulting in aliasing in the audible frequencies.
I am certain digital can sound as good, if not better than, vinyl and tape. And I am curious to find solutions towards that end.
@larryi is spot on with his assessment of Audio Note DACs. They are NOS with no filtering in the digital or analogue stages.
And I agree the mastering is the all-important element in creating digital music. Many original CDs which were transferred from analogue sources have excellent sonics. The countless times that discs have been remastered makes for some rough sounding CDs.
I have heard many good sounding CDs so I don't think the problems with digital sound are inherent in the medium; it is mostly the case of how recordings are mastered. A lot of digital recordings are mastered to sound hard-edged and bright.
There are some CD players that sound less brittle, tizzy, and hard edged (i.e., not as sibilant), and whether or not they are altering the sound and are therefore not as "accurate," I personally don't care. I think all of the Audio Note DACs fall in the "more analogue" sounding camp. The emphasis in their lineup is on the analogue amplification/buffering side, and not on the actual digital conversion. As you got up the line, the improvements are made on that analogue side, not the digital side (which is simple and barebones).
The older, recently discontinued Naim CDP555 player, also sounded more like analogue (warmer tonal balance) than most digital gear; the problem here is that this is VERY expensive player. I know this because I own this name player and I own their 555 server; the CD player is more warm sounding.
Thank you for the clarification. I think what you are looking for, in my words to see if if understand, is something that will play digitally-recorded music, which you like better than analog (? I think), in a way that mimics analog but keeps the digital "quality?"
I think I am still confused. However, it is YOUR system and your listening experience, so have at it. I am sure you will find what you are looking for given the lists of DAC products given here.
I had a chance to hear the Audio Mirror DAC recently and it was very impressive, especially considering the relatively modest price. The word that seemed apt to several of the listeners was "dynamic". If I was looking for a new DAC I would definitely give it a more extended audition. Based on that brief first impression, it seemed like a real contender for DAC bargain of the decade.
On the other hand I've been living with a PS Audio Directstream for about a year now, and I am very happy with the sound of that.
Since I haven't had a turntable in my system for about a decade, I can't really say if either sounds much like vinyl. I can say that neither sounds 'digital' in the negative sense that people seem to have in mind when they ask this sort of question.
- Border Patrol SE DAC - MHDT Pagoda - Audio Mirror TUBADOUR III Decided on the Audio Mirror DAC because it’s built around the AD1865 chip which is the foundation of the Audio Note DACs which are very highly regarded. Search online. I also like it that the manufacture is in the US. The Border Patrol looks interesting but I don’t like the limited input options and to get more than one it’s a switchable input (design compromise?) and bumps the price up considerably. The MHDT looks interesting but doesn’t seem to hit the WOW level with people who have tried them. I was looking for something that frames the music similar to my Rega DAC R which is very musical and works across a broad range of music, hoping for something that builds on the parameters of the Rega. The AD 1865 chip sounded like the best path. I like what I hear so far (1 week) but being patient before I form an opinion, sound wise it’s definitely better, musical differences come as it breaks in and over extended listening through exploring my full CD collection.
I don’t think it’s specifically the R2R that makes things special I believe that is the foundation needed to bring out the best in these older chip designs. Research the chips. Good luck!
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