ACTUAL MUSICAL SOUND VS. MEASUREMENTS

And if you could reasonably measure such a thing, how do you determine what is better?  It's not like S/N ratio where you shoot for a lower number.

I care, and I’m betting a whole lot of other people do too!  And don't think that any company that could show that theirs excels above more expensive others wouldn't do it just for bragging rights.

Stereophile Magazine reviewers continually talk of soundstage and imaging or lack thereof. If it could be measured, there would be mention of it.

So then, show us some/one example.

https://youtu.be/lwFaSzavd9c

@toddalin - It can be done, but who exactly needs it - as in who would pay for it. Audiophile community does not care. Speaker measurements exists because they are used in professional audio where no one "just trust their ears". Now, imaging is a sound field distribution over time. So it is minimum 6-dimensional measurement that is hard to visualize. 3 space variables, time, then as a minimum - frequency and amplitude at a given point in space. More realistically several frequency variables (coefficients in frequency domain after Fourier transform). So we are facing many, many variables. Hard to visualize, but it can be measured and compared. Will require several microphones at different points, measurements of the room itself and a bunch of math to extrapolate the complete field.

@mikhailark

I’m not taking about a sound field distribution across a room, which I would call "soundstage," but more the ability to "precisely locate" specific instruments in a 3-dimensional space, which I would call "imaging."

If this can in fact be shown with some calculations and a waterfall plot, I’ve never seen one and I’m asking you to show us all some representative examples, because I think that if it could be done, it would be done.

In fact, I've never seen "soundstage" calculations/graphs presented, so maybe you could steer us to some of those too.  Comparisons would be most interesting.

@calvinj OP - have you noticed sound changes with the amount of consumed adult beverages? So there :-) Also, never underestimate how furniture, rearranged by your SO affects the sound!

@toddalin he thinks our ears lie to us even though he has never heard our systems. Lol 😂 

@mikhailark take care my man we agree to disagree. Wouldn’t take your advice at all when it comes to this. The music moves me not your opinion or measurements.

@toddalin - pretty easily by waterfall and some calculations of the sound field distribution across the room. 

@spenav - there is nothing "unknown" in USB or Ethernet protocol. Your signed mortgage documents do not change with time and ripped music does not lose any bits sitting on a hard drive :-) Are you concerned that music file may change when you copy it between folders?

...If you know what to measure and have the means to measure it.

How does one measure imaging?

@calvinj OP - if, and only if change can at least theoretically affect the sound.

Change is Sun position in the galaxy is also a change. Neutrinos passing by have gravitational field that affect human brain. It is 10 in minus 100 power, but some may claim they feel it.

Real differences are always measurable. Otherwise it is not science but faith.

@spenav thats why I question a lot of the scientific type audiophiles. If I change materials, connectors , copper, silver, braiding , shielding amounts etc there is going to be a difference in sound. How can you be pro,science and then say you can’t hear a difference ? 

@ghdprentice 

+1

@mswale 

Physics is physics, and math is math. Those are usually not open to debate. 

Sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong. Science is always open to debate. That’s why most of what we know about physics today is called scientific theories, not necessarily laws. Einstein questioned Newton’s theory of gravity and found holes in it. Oppenheimer asked why the atoms couldn’t be split and did it. Science is always open for discussion. We are still not sure what light is: particles of energy or electromagnetic waves? It can be argued both ways. I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph though. 

@agwca "If it moves me emotionally..."

This should be the basis... the most critical aspect. Of which there is no measure. Then after that appraisal of details, slam, imaging, micro details, micro transients...hmm, what is the measure of imaging... watts per cubic cm?... detail... hmm... not that either. Most of the measurements are very poor proxies for a small and distant aspect of the music we hear.

There is a store in Dallas if you come in more than one time the cut it off so you can’t hear it.  To me it’s about getting people to hear what they want and seek.  That’s why I demo stuff to folks. It’s about them being happy and stuff sounding good. 

@agwca 

One salesperson who started talking all this audiophile jargon and went off on his own tirade rather than asking me where I was at and what I think I wanted; 

I had that once about 25 years ago; I remember it vividly. How can I demo the speakers when every 3 seconds he had something else to say? Needless to say he was never my salesman. There is that age-old saying amongst salespeople in any industry: Never talk yourself out of a deal, or talk past the close. 

If it moves me emotionally and I like it...fine.

When I was first getting into this hobby and visiting music stores (decades ago), I appreciated the staff that would let me play my music on the equipment I wanted to compare in my price range and not talk during the demo.

One salesperson who started talking all this audiophile jargon and went off on his own tirade rather than asking me where I was at and what I think I wanted; all I remember thinking is...this guy isn't making it with the girls ( a nicer way to put it).

And, while measurements are a nice comparative use tool, we all have different rooms, responses to what we are hearing, etc.  All that said, I do appreciate Erin's Corner, more than some of the others for what he brings to the table.   

If the shoe fits…..well except it probably won’t with no measurements. 

My ’2 bits’ ( "2 cents!? Average ’stop ’n rob’ has that in and on the parking lot...") is I like to see some ’basic stats’ on any item that a card has to be used to buy it.

It seemed to be a standard issue of publication, and the cynic in me wonders why the ’habit’ got an intervention it didn’t need.....z

After a time, I’ve assumed that any decent to SOTA piece of gear has reached a ’singularity’ of sorts....

’Beyond This, All Else is Taste and Preference."

Cables, IC’s, and the plethora of choices seem to point to that of late to this unwashed and guilty irrelevant.....seems a very subtle version of 'eq' imho...
...it's your dollar$ to do with....

I just enjoy where I’m at for the present that won’t hold still.... ;)

You’re so fine
Lose my mind
And the world seems to disappear
All the problems
All the fears
And the world seems to
Disappear....

....for awhile, for enough.....

Mbmi I believe you, probably my X1 don’t have good measurements but sound amazing.Even the yagdrassil don’t have a good measurement I think but according to the review of Robert Harley it sound phenomenal.

My Borresen X3's don't measure particularly well but sound fantastic...Natural and coherent. I love 'em!

If you’ll allow me another analogy, I think back to the seventies and eighties when I found myself in the world of business. Without any formal training and very little guidance, I had to invent my own way of doing things. I had studied physics at university so I naturally fell into using numbers and accounting to control and shape the organisation. I looked for mathematical relationships in the figures as if I was doing physical science.

This approach was successful up to a point, but the real world is irreducible, messy and unpredictable. Organisations have both a hard and a soft side. Numbers and accounting aren’t a panacea. You have to leave room for the individuality, intuitiveness and creativity of people. To give their best they need a degree of autonomy and freedom so that the organisation can respond to complexity.

Similarly in hifi, the quantitative engineering approach is the essential foundation on which everything is built, Yet it is not the whole story because there is a need for qualitative thinking to get the complete picture. There has to be a balance between control and freedom or the scientific and the artistic.

The only measurement I understand the amp power, preamp gain, speaker sensitivity, sormetimes cart measurement, and cables length.i care most of the musical performance and system matching.

@everyone glad you are on this thread. Love the points of view and humor. This is what it’s about. Disagreeing without name calling or making enemies. Thanks. 

@wolf_garcia exactly I dont like math problems mixed with my music. I wanna not think and let go and let the music move me. BINGO! 

This subject has been rattling around my brain all day.

It occurred to me that the preference of many for vinyl over streaming/CDs gives us a steer towards there being more to assessing sound quality than just measurements.

By all objective metrics, the digital formats should be superior to vinyl. Yet, many people prefer listening to vinyl records. I have made comparisons between the formats using a Linn Klimax DSM/3 and a Linn Klimax LP12 with Urika II.

My preference was strongly for the sound of vinyl, despite the turntable falling short of Linn’s best. Granted not every LP is perfect, but generally the LP12 has a touch of magic that the DSM/3 lacks.

I’d argue that this is fair indication that measurement doesn’t tell us everything.

Don’t try to tell me that my preference for the LP12 is the result of confirmation bias. This test is repeatable. Also, it would have been much more convenient for me if I’d preferred the DSM/3. That would have saved me considerable expense.  

Ideally, I would have used a wider range of players. For my purposes that is not necessary and I’ll leave it for others to do. Of course, my preference is the result of subjective judgement. Isn’t that the nature of qualitative assessment and why quantitative measurement can only go far?

@acman3 @mclinnguy Thank you for your kind comments. Although she was quite ill last year, she’s now relatively well thanks to ongoing targeted therapy. On the bright side, she had 17 years in remission to do amazing things and see her boys grow up. With a bit of luck, she’ll be around for a good while yet.

Sad to see Linda Nolan just passed away with breast cancer.

Newton_john, also very sorry to hear about your wife's illness. Cancer Sucks

@newton_john sorry to hear. 

Just out of pure curiosity, I wonder how many people on this thread are members of organizations such as the Audio Engineering Society (A.E.S.), or related groups such as the Acoustical Society of America (A.S.A.) or similar.

What does membership actually mean?  As a member of IEEE for years, never had any impact on ability to design or measure electronic circuits.  

Sometimes I like to sit in my comfy listening chair and enjoy some measurements...there's no sound of course, but knowing those measurements are there just makes me want to jump up and dance my ass off.

@mclinnguy 🤣

To my embarrassment, my wife has never been shy about sharing that statistic.

Sadly, it’s breast cancer she has in common with ONJ not her name. I’m John from Newton.

@acman3 I meant identify her by the numbers alone - being interested in that way didn’t come into it. 

@invalid sure…try that w speakers…. and a good dmm is more rare here than an SPL meter….

@tomic601 the use of an SPL meter to level match is not the proper way. Matching voltage is.

@chillydog you have the dest quote on this thread. 

@mdalton ah…wonderful map..

To paraphrase some wisdom : If you don’t know where your going, any glass ( road ) will get you there…

But with Scotch, all who wander are not lost..

The 75 would also be 2 rich for me. I received a bottle of Mac 25 upon my retirement… that’s likely my one time apogee….

thx for sharing the map. 

My room sounds a heck of a lot better than it did when I first completed the build and measured it with the added bass traps and treatments. I wonder if my measurements would show a different result today now that I have tweaked components, cables, and more importantly, the angle of my mid/tweeter module on my Wilson's? Now I have the singer standing up at mic height instead of sitting in a chair. The whole soundstage is much better and more open sounding (violated the manual's set-up recommendations to achieve the standing singer). I should give it a go and see if the charts come out significantly different. hmmmm

It's a PITA to set that up, but might be interesting to see if there are no differences in the graphs, then.......

@tomic601 

Hah!  Take a look at the Scotch map.  I love Talisker and Caol Ila (check out how close they are) for “daily drinkers”.  My go-to special night scotch these days is Lagavulin 16 - way up in the Northeast:

https://www.google.com/search?q=scotch+map&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#vhid=bw8adOJPnEgKfM&vssid=_RNCGZ7z7Ivef5NoPxpeW0Qc_42

And I happened to be at a conference at the Ritz Carlton on Friday where I saw, in a display case in a safe a 72 year old Macallan in a Lalique bottle.  Alas, way too rich for my blood, so I just had a couple of perfect Manhattans.

@immersifi_recording_services 

Few…very few

my ? about who has and spl meter and level match when evaluating single variable chages… are typically met with -120 db… silence

@mdalton Bravo man….i will have some of what you are drinking and listening to….

Im a Talisker w ice slick listener myself….

Mr. John, probably a poor analogy, I could tell if I was interested at all by measurements. Not your wife though.

Good question.  I’m like Groucho, I would never want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.   

I totally  agree that the hobby has no place for obnoxious dogma.  I also agree with someone’s observation that there are anti-measurement obnoxious dogmatics as well.  Me?  I think measurements are really important, and helpful.  They help me be more rigorous in characterizing what I hear.  For example, if I like something that sounds enjoyably “warm” to my ears, I can then look at a frequency response to see if it has a rolled off treble, or a midrange bump, or whatever.  That allows me to better focus on exactly what characteristics I prefer and find equipment I’m likely to like.  This is also why I prefer Stereophile reviews over The Absolute Sound, at the margin.  The reviewers don’t see Atkinson’s measurements until after they submit their reviews.  That enforces a level of discipline that’s missing among most reviewers.  I also believe that the digital side of the hobby benefits even more from measurements than the analog side, for obvious reasons.  

And don’t get me started on streamers, network switches and the like.  If someone says a network switch “lowers the noise floor”, I’d like to see a measurement of that, because it’s easily done.  Ironically, I’m primarily a vinyl and tubes guy, with Audio Note ANEs and restored Altec Santiago’s in my two main systems, so I’m obviously not driven by measurements.  But to me, ignoring measurements unnecessarily limits your knowledge-base.

Am reminded of my journey with single malt scotch.  After my first few years of experience, I had a definite understanding of which scotches were my faves.  But when I spent 10 days in Edinburgh, I found a chart that sorted the major scotches into 4 taste-profile quadrants.  Lo snd behold, all my faves were bunched together in the Northwest quadrant.  This “measurement” provided me with important “data” to supplement my experiential information, and helped me be a better informed scotch drinker.  And yes, scotch drinking definitely enhances my audio experience!

I wonder if one of these measurement guys could pick my wife out of crowd using her vital statistics of 36-27–38* alone.

Well now you are in trouble @newton_john , because someone told her about this post and now she is going to post a measurement of you. 

Hey, I don't suppose her name is Olivia? 

At the risk of sounding sexist, I wonder if one of these measurement guys could pick my wife out of crowd using her vital statistics of 36-27–38* alone.

*Those numbers there are a total guess on my part. I’ve no idea what her actual vital statistics are. They are not what defines her.

I’m not against measurements. It’s just that I’m ears over measurement all day.