I've had a VPI 19 jr for years and get good but not terrific bass out of it. Having read the others' posts, I've been surprised no one has mentioned polarity. Do any of your components reverse polarity? If so, you may have to reverse your speaker cables at the speaker to compensate. Poor bass is often a sign of incorrect polarity. Just a thought, as I am far from an expert on this subject( read Clark Johnsen's material on polarity).--Mrmitch |
Hi,
You are reporting results that are exactly backwards.
I trust your ears and what you are reporting.
But to be clear: Scoutmasters have LOADS more bass and midbass than Regas do. Regas NEVER sound dark.
You should:
1. Not buy anything more.
2. Make sure you are making no judgements at all until your cartridge has at least 20 hours on it.
3. IMPORTANT: Make sure your phono pre is set on MC, loaded at 20 ohms. If you don't like the sound, try 100 ohms. Page 2 explains how:
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/manuals/manual_tubeboxse.pdf
4. Print out a cartridge alignment protractor and see if yours is aligned somewhere near correctly. Here: http://mkjnovak.homestead.com/files/align.PDF
5. Put something on the headshell to weight it down. You can only do this if you have a VTF measuring device. Then re-adjust tracking force to 1.8g.
The issue of what the VPI rests on will make a difference, but not a major one. The VPI will slam you over the head with powerful bass no matter what it's on.
Let us know when you confirm no. 3 above. Thanks and good luck-
Hukk |
Johnnyb53, I would say that the problems you heard in the set-up you described are almost certainly due to either the amp or speakers, not the table and cartridge. I love the Rega tables, but I was very underwhelmed by their amps and speakers.
Madfloyd, I would certainly vouch for the P5/Exact 2 combo, especially if you also get the separate power supply. I am very happy with that set up. |
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Well I used the Project when I had the Rega P3-24 and there was plenty of bass. I also tried the VPI with an Aesthetix Rhea and there wasn't much bass, but the Rhea wasn't functioning properly so I didn't want to mention it before.
Thanks for the tip about VPI selling the Dynavector. I'll call them on Tuesday. |
I should also mention I had the previous iteration of the Pro-ject Tube Box with a Rega P25. I thought the bass was somewhat lightweight with that setup. Knowing what I know now, perhaps it wasn't the Rega, rather the Tube Box that was holding back the bass. Just something to think about. |
For a temporary fix, go to Home Depot and get some Moretite. Take a blob of it and put it under the headshell. Adjust the VTF and see what happens |
Wish I had more time to really get into it with you guys. Keep up the good work and giving great advice.
HW |
I would take a close look at your phono stage, I recently changed out some coupling caps, made all the difference in the world. If your problem is the same as mine, all the changes in setup or cartridges are not going to solve the problem. I don't know what caps the Pro-ject uses, but this is the first place I would look. You should also see if you can audition a higher quality phono stage.
My recent experience illustrates the importance of a quality phono stage. At this point I think it may be the most important link in the analog chain. |
HW,
Thanks for participating. It's exciting to see you post here.
FYI, Mike is a gem; but you already know that :-)
Cheers,
Spencer |
Madfloyd,
Check the VPI website. They sell their own version of the Dynavector which is probably the one VPIHW was talking about. It has an output of 1 mv and is the one I was thinking of trying before I (as I often do) went more expensive and tried the Benz Micro LP. It looks like a pretty good cartridge for the money. Unfortunately VPI is closed on Fridays and I'm sure for the Holiday weekend but I'm not sure I would try any makeshift headshell weight without asking them first. That sounds like something I would have done in high school when I was younger, faster, and more foolish. As I said before, you've got some great equipment(a descent phono stage may help as much as anything which doesn't have to cost a fortune) but another very important factor in vinyl satifaction is diligence and patience. You're on the right track and you will get there. |
Harry's suggestion is to get a Dynavector 20XM. I having a problem finding a place to purchase this online.
I can find 'L' versions and at elusivedisc they list a HW-DYN20XM but the actual description lists it as an 'H' version (VPI/DYNAVECTOR 20 X-H SPECIAL VERSION). Is this the same thing?
Another question. Given that its Friday and too late to get my hands on a headshell weight for the weekend, is there any temporary solution (attaching a dime or something that is approx 3 grams) - or is that totally ridiculous?
I'm chomping at the bit to enjoy some vinyl....:-)
Thanks again to all who have been patient with me. |
Madfloyd, don't spend any money on upgrades until you correct the bass problem you are hearing. Harry gave you
the right advice. He designed the table and arm. No one knows more about it than he does. Follow it and live with the changes for awhile and confirm that VPI is your table of choice. Hold on to your money until then. |
Thanks for the tip about the headshell weight.
What's the general consensus about the VPI Mini HRX feet upgrade? |
VPI makess a 3 gram stainless steel weight for JMW tonearms. Cost $15.00 at Music Direct and other dealers. |
The M is faster than the H almost as fast as the L but has a very powerful impact on transients with the right phono section or transformer and loading. With a transformer around 40 ohms with a phono section around 1K
HW |
Thanks again for all the responses. I'm learning a lot. Can I ask for a suggestion of how to add weight to the headshell? Can you purchase these weights somewhere?
I do want to purchase a Dynavector; my dealer is suggesting I wait until I sort out my speaker issue, but I'm not sure I can wait that long. :-) |
My Scout came with a Dynavector marked 20X.
9" arm.
The box has the H checked.
It only has an H and an L box to check.
Is the M a new version?
I love the Scout with a JLTi phono and the 20XH.
Would the 20XM or 20XL be an improvement? |
Vpihw is Harry Weisfield. Listen to what he says about his products and ignore the rest of us. He won't steer you wrong. |
I still think its most likely an issue with the low compliance cartridge. Vpihw's suggestion of adding mass to the tonearm is worth a try. |
Lowering the tonearm at the base (my suggestion) will increase the bass, but go too far and you'll lose the mids and highs, so be careful. Also, adjusting the VTA will affect your VTF, so re-measure that when you are done.
Before adjusting, attempt to determine if the arm is parallel to the playing surface. Based on your symptoms, I would guess the arm is higher at the back and lower at the cartridge. If you can see that it is higher, without having to use a ruler, then it's WAY too high in the back. Otherwise, the way to measure is to lower the arm onto the record (use a beat up record) and use a ruler to measure the height of the arm at two points. That will tell you if the arm is higher at the back. (It's not that easy, truth be told, because the JMW9 arm is tapered. You have to look closely.)
And be careful not to knock the arm with your ruler or hand, since its sitting in the groove. I wouldn't want my advice to result in a busted cantilever!
Good luck.
Tom |
The problem is the cartridge needs a 3-4 gram weight on the headshell to improve the upper bass lower midrange response. This is not an ideal match but can be made to work if you increase the mass.
You must also let the Valhalla wire break in, seriously, it needs 50 to 60 hours of playing to loosen up the sound. Set the back of the arm down slightly which will slighly increase the tracking force, make sure you are level and if you do not have seriously slam bang bass get
a new phono section.
I really don't understand why dealers team up cartridges and arms based on absolutely nothing. Get the Dynavector 20X-M and you will have slam, bass, and a beautiful soundstage and midrange.
HW |
Madfloyd,
SDS is a box that plugs between the ac cord and the wall. It helps keep speed consistently at 33.33 or 45rpm. Walker Audio's Motor Controller is a competing product that does the same thing.
Although that might improve your overall sound to some degree(and probably will), it doesn't address your problem. Fix that first.
Your other learnings in your last post as basically correct. Try reading the turntable setup tips on walkeraudio.com. They will help you. Cheers,
Spencer |
Be careful, these adjustments aren't "tone controls", wrong adjustments affect the sound in various ways, not as consistent as you seem to assume they are. You'll soon find out in what way the adjustments are affecting the sound. |
Madfloyd, just Google "VPI SDS" and check it out. The third hit will take you to Audiophilia's review after it's release. |
Wow... so much info. You guys definitely give me hope. I know that the dealer who setup my tt the other day chose the heaviest VTF possible (2.0). I don't have any turntable tools; I need to invest in some.
So, trying to summarize what I've learned from you guys:
- VPI is not known for anemic bass; something in my cartridge or setup must be the culprit.
- A wall shelf may not make that much difference, but that the MDF platform that my TT is sitting on is not ideal and I should get a maple platform of some kind (even if it sits on the MDF platform?)
- Lowering the tonearm so that at the base it is lower than the cartridge will help bass
- I can even increase the VTF so that it goes beyond the recommended value for my cartridge (2.0) and increase bass.
I still haven't figured out what SDS is - can someone enlighten me?
Thanks for all the speaker tips. |
I have a nice budget set up with a scoutmaster TT and a stock JMW 9. No problems with low bass. I'm using a dynavector 20XL and a Sutherland Ph3D phono pre. |
"Equalization in the lower frequencies is not deletorious(below about 150 hz) which is why Vandersteen does this."
That's fine. I think I said equalization was one possible solution.
But my assertion is that there are many good ported speaker designs that do not have "fat mid bass".
I'd assert I own 4 designs that do not and one older design I've owned for years (Ohm L, front ported) that perhaps does to some extent.
One of the ported designs I own (Ohm 5s, bottom ported)also has equalization adjustments (2 bass, 1 mid, 1 treble) to help match to room acoustics on board. Some like that feature and some do not. It works very well for me in that I want to be able to adjust those speakers to different rooms and acoustics without having to rely on an external solution.
Aren't room acoustics a common determining factor for frequency response with most any speaker and placement? This can affect ported and non ported designs as well.
|
Dealer set ups are always questionable. I have never had a dealer set mine up correctly. Chances are you have a new cartridge and even if it was set up perfectly, it will change as it breaks in. I don't know any dealer that is willing to put in the hours necessary to properly adjust a turntable. Many of you know just how much time doing an overhang adjust with the Mint requires. Next comes Azimuth, VTA, etc....tooooooooooo much |
Mapman,
I respect your opinion but the Vandersteens solve all of the size and room placement problems of which you speak without the use of ports and with flat in room response custom tailored to your room. Equalization in the lower frequencies is not deletorious(below about 150 hz) which is why Vandersteen does this. That's all I'll say about speakers. Sorry everyone. I realize this is not the loudspeaker forum. |
Ain't it fun figuring out exactly why a turntable ain't performing as it should when it don't?
One of the reason's surely that vinyl pilfered out of the mainstream way back when and most sane people (save us) just go for the ease of digital. Less moving parts to tend to and relatively cheap to replace when it breaks.
Of course, watch out when a digital format is not compatible....
If only they stuck the well made CDs in full sized record sleeves with cover art and text like LPs that I could read without a magnifying glass, I think I might be happy. I would probably have bought more CDs because maybe the cover art would have caught my eye in the store as happened in so many cases for me with LPs, so the record companies would be happier than they are these days too!
Progress, right? |
Spencer is absolutely correct, as well as some others along the same lines. |
Stop thinking of spending on ANYTHING until you figure out what's wrong.
Tfkaudio & Sonofjim are likely correct. Lower the VTA so the tonearmis lower than parallel at its base. This should increase bass. Make sure your VTF is set a the highest weight end of the manufs' recommended range or even .1-.2g higher, as often recommended by VPI. Don't be afraid to mess up the setup, you will learn to hear what each change sounds like. Your dealer could easily have botched the setup.
Try measuring in room response w/test record and a mic. Tell us what the results are.
VPI "house sound" has been characterized by many as "beefy American mid bass heavy", etc. not light in bass at all. Something is wrong with your setup. BORROW another turntable and see what it does before you buy anything at all. Cheers,
Spencer |
Oh , and with a ported design, you can also always plug the port to various degrees to lessen the bass if that is an issue.
Also for good clear bass with a ported speak or any speak for that matter, make sure you have good amplification that is ably capable of driving the speakers load. |
"Don't go with any ported speaker if you want to avoid fat midbase."
I know this can be a general tendency for ported speakers, but not always. There are many good ported designs (front, back, or bottom) each of which provides good advantage when applied properly.
If you like full, extended, bass t go along with detail and clarity in the upper ranges as well, in lieu of a ported design, your options may be only bigger more expensive speakers (that are also harder to place practically) location closer to walls and/or corners, which often negatively impacts imaging accuracy and soundstage, or use of tone controls or equalization (ouch). |
Madfloyd,
I think you mentioned that you had a professional setup of the table. Who did this and have you actually tinkered with the parameters much if at all? Sorry if I've missed something mentioned before. My Super Scoutmaster was set up by the dealer I bought it from. For a long time I was afraid to mess it up by changing anything. It wasn't until I started messing with the settings myself that I discovered the true joy of vinyl. Don't be afraid to mess with any of the settings the others have recommended. This professional setup is obviously not satisfying you. I know you don't need a different table or arm to get results you'll like. I've used the 90x with great results for a long time. I'm not sure about your particular Shelter but others have been happy with it.
A solid phono stage with easy adjustments for gain and loading is a must. Your preamp and amp are very solid if not among the very best around. You've auditioned some good speakers but I would again advise you to look at Vandersteen before you take that plunge. The Citadels have been on my short list of amps to try with my 5As. The lack of global negative feedback synergizes very well with a time and phase coherent speaker. Your fat midbass/room problems would be solved as well by the base EQ adjustments. Don't go with any ported speaker if you want to avoid fat midbase. If you were anywhere near Des Moines, I would invite you to audition my system to see if it was any closer to what you're looking for. I have no shortage of strong bass and no boominess. Sorry for a long winded post and I know it's just my opinion but it looks to me like you're on the right track and probably a lot closer than you realize. |
I'm surprised that nobody, from a quick look, has suggested what seems to be the obvious problem: VTA. Lower the base of the tonearm a little and see if you get your bass back.
Cheers.
Tom |
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I have a "budget buster" set-up, with a Scoutmaster as my turntable. I don't have SDS, I don't have the periphial ring, I don't have the super platter and I don't have any measuring gadgets to analyze the sound spectrum, save for my ears. I run the tt through a Sonic Frontiers SFP 1 that I had a techie adjust to match my Benz Glider medium output cart. It feeds an Adcom GFP 750 pre-amp, to a Krell KAV 250A amp, to a pair of Dunlavy SC 3's. The tt is sitting on a 35 dollar boos butcher block.
My ass falls off every time I spin vinyl: plenty of bass, slam, seperation, midrange, and nice sweet highs. I even set the cart up myself, which is a miracle because I can barely change a light bulb.
This Scoutmaster owner is very happy. |
..actually the Signature has better bass (midrange, highs, dynamics, etc) than the regular 9...and its just "wrong" to go backwards. |
I listened some more last night. I think the setup is fine - It all sounds good except for the lack of bass. I guess another thing to to consider is getting a non-signature tonearm with a Dynavector cartridge. |
That's weird. I auditioned a Rega P3/24 with Elys II going into an all-Rega chain--Brio driving the R5 floorstanders, and I thought the detail was unnatural and overdone. Maybe the Brio was clipping or there was feedback or the system was overloading the room, but it sounded sort of phasey and unnaturally detailed, sort of like it was underwater. Drowning in detail at the expense of the fundamentals and melody lines. Maybe the VTA and azimuth (Rega tonearm vulnerabilities) were off.
I smell asystem-matching and setup issues.
Say what you want about my "DJ" table, but when I got home and spun the same LP on my Technics SL1210 M5G with fluid damper and AT150MLX cartridge, it sounded so much more musical, clean, and balanced. There was plenty of detail, but it wasn't overwhelming the music. |
Wow... thanks for all the responses, guys. I feel disappointed that I ordered the Target shelf (it was suggested in another thread).
What is SDS?
Someone asked about speakers, I auditioned a couple Verity models, a Rockport Mira and, for fun, the Magico V3s (which is what I heard the other VPI with).
I liked the Rockports; next step is to audition them in my home.
I am considering purchasing a Rega P5/Exact to see if I can get better bass without sacrificing detail (which is what happened with the P3/Elys II), but I realize that I'd be taking a chance... |
I've had my Sota Cosmos on a few different platforms....ALL affected the sound differently.
The MDF was quite poor,in that the sound was rather "MDF'Y"-:)It was sort of deadened,and diffuse compared to my second move,which was a pricey air bladder design.
I have my table mounted on a superb wall shelf,mounted into two by six beams.I am talking of the actual shelving material,and how it clearly affected the sonic spectrum,in my set-up only.
The air bladder design,allowed me to disengage the Cosmos' sprung suspension.I was quite happy with this configuration until Sota did a complete redo of the springs.My friend got "these" new suspension springs first,and they were quite different from what folks knew the older Sotas to be like.Formerly they were way too springy,but now they were quite stiff,with almost NO bounce.
I still seemed happy, the old air bladder way,until I decided to get the new sprung suspension,and "this" made me try it with a Symposium Ultra Shelf,instead of the air bladder.Of course I now disengaged the locked up springs,and went the normal way of using "this" new suspension.
The difference,to me,with my usual LP suspects was absolutely dramatic!!Now it appeared I had a "serious" and well tuned suspension,that did not bounce around,and allowed for the Ultra Shelf to do it's job.The Ultra Shelf is a fabulous support,and significantly outperformed the air bladder(both not cheap,btw)in this new configuration.I had a significant increase in bass performance,and focus.
One thing(my opinion) about all this business of "perceived differences",whether they be material choices in products,or set up choices made by the hobbyist.....
You'd be very well off to make a serious attempt to hear/listen carefully to your "best" LP's on a multitude of top systems(not really hard if you make the attempt to bring them along to the "few' better dealers,trade shows,and especially fellow hobbyists' homes)in an effort to absolutely know how "music' is presented with such a plethora of sonic viewpoints,from different components.
Now you'll have a better idea of how the different instrument combinations should sound,and if a future component is not up to snoff,it will be very obvious.
You'll know for sure,without having to post a question on an audio forum.
Viridian...Hope this makes some sense -:)
Best |
Madfloyd, MDF does not make a very good platform, though I doubt it would suck the bass out of the system. It will make for an uninvolving sound however. Maple makes for a good platform. I use a maple platform on a sandbox with a separate platform for the motor. I agree that the platform material makes a difference in sound.
I do not agree that the upgrades are necessary to get good sound from the ScoutMaster. Mine is relatively stripped down except for the signature arm and I have never had the bass problems you are having. AAMOF, the bass response with the Dyna 20xl was superior to that of my cdp which is known for its bass qualities. This is what makes your problem hard to diagnose.
There are those who do not like the VPI sound. But it is usually a PRAT issue rather than bass or midbass. AAMOF, I think that VPI is somewhat known for its bass response. |
I urge you to give that Nordost wire more time to break in. Get back in 6 months..it takes a very long time. The notion that the VPI table is inherently bass light is ludicrous. I have bass on mine that can shake the house. I doubt if wall mounting will make any difference for you. The VPI benefits from the SDS, the heavy platter, the ring clamp, the MInt protractor etc...however these just make it better. The table you have is quite wonderful if set up correctly. Call VPI and get their take on this. They have always been responsive and excellent for me. |
Madfloyd, I sort of missed it, but you're wondering about the Rega. I formerly had a Rega P25 with Grado Sonata, Sumiko Blue Point Special, ARC SP9 MKII, Pro-ject Tube Box, always thought that bass somewhat lightweight as well. The Tube Box improved that deficiency to some extent, in the end I blamed the tt.
I also currently have a highly modified Thorens TD160, this does give me a more satisfactory tonal balance. Unfortunately, it not in the same class as the VPI in the resolution department. Still, I would describe it as more musical than the VPI in it's current state. |
Johnbrown, I have the SDS and converted to thread drive. This did not greatly change my perception of a relatively lightweight bass. YMMV |
The SDS should be your next purchase. They're commonly available used here for +/- 700.00, and will have an immediate, and positive effect.
As an experiment, try using carpet thread instead of the rubber belt from your motor assembly to the platter. Helps to tighten up the musical presentation. Do a search at
VA for different knot-tying methods. |
Your bass response issues being resolved by the digital makes the tt setup the obvious culprit. Attending to other issues will only delay your getting the tt setup right.
The wall shelf will make little or no difference in the bass, I've tried both wall and floor setups, the wall setup is much better overall in other sonic aspects. I suspect the fact your setup sits on a cement slab will make even less difference vs. the wall setup. I highly doubt it is your tt isolation.
I had the Pro-ject Tube box in a former tt setup, I doubt that is the culprit. I actually found it to be somewhat dark sounding in that setup, it probably doesn't have the bass impact of the highest quality phono stages.
You may also want to try an armwand with the standard Discovery cable, more even tonal balance in my setup. My only problem with that cable is it seemed a little closed in on top, it also doesn't have the resolution, air and spaciousness of the Valhalla cable. I also think it may be worth considering a custom wired armwand with Cardas, Purist or some other wiring, this could make a worthwhile difference. The Purist will definitely take the bass up a notch.
It would also be enlightening to audition a higher end phono stage, I've tried this path with no success to this point. Based on my experience you may have a long road to go in getting the VPI to sound the way you want, on the other hand, perhaps the next upgrade and/or tweak could solve the problem. Kind of exasperating not knowing how far or close one can be to solving audio problems. |
