Are upgraded power cables for subwoofers worth it?

I got in touch with REL about this and they said they had tested several third party power cords and found there was no improvement. I wouldn't bother.

No. ASR has tested a bunch of them, and there is zero improvement. Additionally, many third party cables are not UL/CE listed, so if something goes wrong (fire), you are out of luck with insurance. Buyer beware, literally.

@oberoniaomnia  UL listed isn't a requirement for home owners insurance coverage.

I would definitely not pay any attention to anything ASR says. Not a source of good information.

I have always wondered, but not enough to do the research. My biggest concern was interconnects. I just hedged my bets and got inexpensive subwoofer cables. Typically power cords on amps have made a very big difference. I got rid of the subwoofers from my audio system a few years ago. I still have a couple 800 series B&W in my home theater. So, I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has actually done comparisons. I would doubt it... but then I didn't thing interconnects, cables and power cords couldn't possibly make a difference and proved myself completely wrong by experimentation... so, maybe my intuition will be right this time.

If one believes power cables make a difference with the rest of their equipment why would they not believe they could make a difference with subs? PC's also affect dynamics both macro and micro. So, per everything in audio, believe what you want to believe, but don't you think it may be worth your time to at least test the hypothesis prior to making assumptions.

Power cords make a difference with my $400 Audioengine powered computer speakers, though I didn't hear a significant difference between $300 and $800 power cords, but both were vastly superior to stock. I can't really imagine that good power cords wouldn't make a positive difference with powered subwoofer, though this does not necessarily mean that it should be expensive exotic power cords.

Yes, better power cables on subwoofers absolutely make a difference.

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Whatever power cord you use, make sure the wire gauge is big enough for the current draw of the sub’s amplifier (12awg should be fine), the connectors make good contact and fit snugly in the duplex, and the cable is shielded to reduce noise (although not necessarily a requirement if you don’t have a noise issue).

You can get this done for as little as $100 or less, with something like this one, or even this one. Here is one that you could construct as a DIY project using a typical Hubble plug and IEC. You should be able to find that cable by the foot.

Although it is possible to have a slight improvement with upgraded power cords on subwoofers its most likely not worth the trouble or expense. Your money is better spent on something else. I speak from experience because I've done the upgrade. In my case I needed much longer power cords for the pair of subwoofers in order to reach the AC outlet.

If one believes power cables make a difference with the rest of their equipment why would they not believe they could make a difference with subs? PC’s also affect dynamics both macro and micro. So, per everything in audio, believe what you want to believe, but don’t you think it may be worth your time to at least test the hypothesis prior to making assumptions.

When I asked REL about this, they explained that they didn’t expect it to make a difference, because the subs, unlike most speakers, were self-powered and not passive; but they went ahead and tried a variety of cords and found no measurable or listenable effect. They said that the only reason a power cord would make a difference on a sub is if it's too small to pass the needed current. Their cords pass the needed current, so no improvement was expected and none were observed.

I went ahead and tried with my own sub many times and could not hear a difference.

So, there’s REL making an engineering-theory based argument, plus their trial, plus my trials. Surely, everyone can listen for themselves but there’s always the danger of placebo effect. To each his own in this hobby.

Also some manufacturers (on all equipment) include good quality power cords and some do not…

Thanks everyone for the responses.  Varying answers which I always appreciate.  I have noticed power conditioning has helped my subs sound more tight and controlled so I figure a solid power cord may able to help as well.  But I agree that going for a super high end cable is probably unnecessary and money would be better spend elsewhere.  May have to try a few cables from my local hifi shop and report back compared to basic cables!

@hilde45 I'm well acquainted with placebo effect, been around the block a time or two over the decades. PC's affect dynamics and specifically how those dynamics delivered. Specifically as to how they affect subs is damping factor, some cables can accentuate resonance, others may be too damped down, transients another factor. I now make my own PC's based on designs of @williewonka , these with various AWG and wire, these specific recipes for my REL subs which hit the exact sweet spot between the overly resonant and damped. Now this allied with dedicated 20amp, 10AWG circuits for amp/subs, proper placement of at least 2 subs, proper crossover settings and volume on subs,  and high level REL connectors (my own recipes). I've long had issues with integrating subs, mostly with low level connections, even with dsp. With the REL's and all my optimizations I finally have the amazing coherence I've long sought, if one is extremely sensitive to subs and coherence PC's can be a critical aspect in getting this correct. How one can conclude PC don't affect dynamics which I could also define as current delivery, just as it does with pre's, amps, sources is illogical to my way of thinking. I suppose some just aren't as sensitive to these things as others.

My experience might help your decision.  My main system is pretty high end and incorporates a pair os REL SX 212 subs.  When I bought these 4 years ago, I followed REL's advice and used their power cables.  At that time there were other priorities.  About a year ago, I finally got around to trying after market power cords.  Audio Sensibility Statement is what I use throughout my system for interconnects and speaker cables, so that is what I ordered.  The decision is made easier because the company offers a return privilege.  Long story short there was a noticeable improvement.  So what can you learn from this?  First that improvement is definitely possible, and second, perhaps it might be something that should be considered as not a high priority upgrade.  I certainly have no regret for having postponed addressing it. 

Upon further reflection, I've been speaking specifically to my recent experience with the REL subs. In consideration many subs use class D amplification I'll agree they less sensitive to PC vs at least some REL's. Class D much more efficient, switching power supplies makes them less sensitive, yet I still heard slight differences with my class D subs, low level IC's made a larger difference here.

REL's implementing class A/B amps are another animal altogether, this same topology used in amps for main speakers, pc's make great difference with these amps. Now with subs dealing with much narrower range of frequencies,  voicing isn't the main issue, dynamics and transients remain. @billstevenson post correlates with my own experience with REL's.

My speakers have powered woofers and I use a pair of Shunyata power cords into a Shunyata Hydra 4 plugged into a dedicated Shunyata wall outlet. Not sure if there is that great a difference but I had all of these things hanging around so why not use it?  When I asked Sandy Gross about it he said that if he already had those cables and PC at home, he would definitely use them on the speakers.  

@sns I’m well acquainted with placebo effect, been around the block a time or two over the decades....How one can conclude PC don’t affect dynamics which I could also define as current delivery, just as it does with pre’s, amps, sources is illogical to my way of thinking. I suppose some just aren’t as sensitive to these things as others.

I wasn’t suggesting you didn’t know about the placebo effect! lol. As you mention, a lot of factors are at work bringing your subs together (your special design PC, a 20 amp 10 AWG circuit, placement, crossover settings, high-level REL connectors.) I will take you at your word that the PC’s you’ve designed are playing a significant role among those ingredients. (In other words, if you swapped them out with all those other things in place, the quality would suffer.)

In my case, after doing a bunch of work, I have not had any persistent problems with placement, crossover settings, or other things. My subs, with all those pieces in place, are seamlessly integrated and tight. They measure well. When I experimented with power cords, there was no improvement. So, for me, the argument of "no difference" from a PC is based on personal experience, plus REL saying there’s no reason they can see for it to make a difference in theory nor in their trials.

P.S. I just want to add that, of course, in all cases the cord has to be large enough to meet the current demands of the device, and that a sub will tend to draw more current. That's why, to my understanding a 12ga cord makes sense. A 10ga can be used, but with a 20 amp circuit, the wall wire is 12ga. Still, 10ga won't hurt though it will cost more.

I have a Martin Logan BalancedForce 210 which has a 850-watt class-D switching amplifier. I was feeding it with a power cable from Signal Cable, when I read a reviewer on PosFeed dicuss what an improvement an aftermarket power cable made to his sub, in the bass, but also in the midrange.  I value good midrange and have ML CLXs, which are pretty revealing.  So I bought a Sunyata Alpha NR for the sub (I have multiple Alphas and Sigmas in my system).  Shockingly, it had a dramatic effect on cleaning up my midrange, and the impact on the bass was positive, but not to the same extent.  I hypothesize that this is happening from the NR power cord suppressing any "back flow" of switching noise from the class-D sub amp from getting back into my system's "grid" and hence the other components.  But, who knows?  I just know that I would not go back.

Then I decided to upgrade my cables from my ARC REFSE to the sub from average grade to sub specific (and balanced).  I was shocked again ... they hardly made a difference.  Not sure they made any improvement.

I am a n of 1, but that's my data point ...

-docknow

I have three dedicated line, all are 10AWG wiring from same phase on 20amp breakers to AC outlets, never want any possibility of current limitations on any of the dedicated outlets. Power conditioner with any number of components connected on one circuit may draw much current. Amp/subs on their own dedicated circuit, no power conditioning, amps, subs on same circuit so no chance for ground loops. I've tried many power conditioners with any number of amps via lending library at Cablecompany, every one of them impacted transients to some degree, even with outlets dedicated for amps, while these may bypass some of the pathway of other outlets, they still pass through who knows what. Its my experience amps/subs like direct connection to breakers, I can just imagine 10AWG direct wired  no power cords, fuse, IEC, AC outlets.

@billstevenson - my system is also transparent high quality so am considering REL. Thanks for the tip.

@stereo5 - you had thousands of dollars worth of cabling and power conditioning "just laying around" haha - must be nice - also good to hear that Sandy G would use the equipment too.  I've really been impressed with Shunyata gear

@docknow - interesting situation with the class D sub amps.  I run a high end class D for my mains in my second setup with an XC power cord.  Wonder if an NR would be more beneficial?  I really am in love with those Cardas Parsec power cables for low priced power cabling for amps though.  Seem to just punch way above their price point or just synergize extremely well with my system.  Tried against a $2000 Nordost cable and I preferred it by a mile.  My rhythmik subs have A/B amps so I probably will run XC with them or just some beefy amazon ones.  Right now it's partially just a distance requirement that I've come to need new cables.  The servo subs are working fantastically, although I've learned over the years that "better" can always be achieved if one is willing to pay the cost of entry and the time and effort to test various equipment in a similar price tier.

@sns My studio setup is similar but I still saw a pretty massive improvement using a Shunyata Gemini-8 with a Theta C19 power cable.  I know it seems like the book is closed for you on power conditioning, but if you have anyone near you that has Shunyata gear, may be worth a try again?  I'm noticing the opposite -  improved transients and it's not a preference thing.  I'm an audio engineer and recording engineer so I live on my system and am well aware of how transients are incredibly important for realism on a system and can make or break a good mix when layered properly.  Your setup from your breaker may be superior to mine though?  Interesting how components can be world shatteringly amazing in one system and not work at all in another

@jrareform Perhaps I wasn't clear in that I was only commenting on amps/subs on power conditioners. Vast majority of equipment in my system running through BPT 3.5 Signature with film cap and AC outlet modifications (Oyaide R1). In my demos of amps on PC's, the Audience Adept proved best, still negatively impacted transients.

@sns Thanks for clarifying your setup. Since you have dedicated lines for 10AWG wiring, including lines dedicated to subs, I can see why a 10awg PC could help you obviate any possible current limitation, especially if the PC's that came with your sub came with were restricting their current requirements. (When I talked with REL, they explained that their PC's were sufficient for their subs.)

But I have to admit, your description helps me, as I've wired a new room with those kinds of outlets (and a dedicated breaker box), but I have not moved in there yet. When I do, I will reconsider my conclusions about PC's and subs.  In my current room, with a 20 amp circuit, no dedicated outlets, and wall wire that is 12AWG, I could not hear a difference with PC's, BUT that's likely because my setup, unlike yours, prevents me from hearing the benefits that you can hear. My claims about not hearing a difference were probably falsely attributed to the PC.

I suppose others reading this advice might take away the reasonable conclusion that if they have a setup like mine, they may also not be able to hear a difference from a PC (due not to the PC but to the wider system).

My guess is that most people will have 12ga with a 20a circuit. So, for most, a 10ga cord probably won't matter unless they have a high-power sub and an 18ga cord.  But if they have a setup like yours, the PC might matter. 

I appreciate this exchange. I'm learning from it. Advice is always relative to someone's setup, and you've made me understand the difference between your (amazing) setup and my ordinary one.

!0AWG is difficult to work with, generally the largest gauge that will fit most breakers and AC outlets, and for longer runs they certainly help with supplying needed current for those transients. For me, the easy part of PC for subs is determining gauge, 12AWG in wall, at least 12AWG PC, and so on. As I previously mentioned I've long heard differences in bass delivery to audio equipment, in other words resonant vs more damped down/tightened bass. First time I really noticed this was with an extremely expensive Elrod PC on some Cary monoblocks I was running at the time, I was amazed by how both the quantity and quality of bass was so different from the other cables I had tried up to that point. Ever since then I've been extremely sensitive to how bass quality is affected by PC's. I absolutely require a deep hard hitting bass devoid of even a wiff of the dreaded one note bass, bass should be tuneful and articulate in my book.

Now I will concede that in my system and some others the main speakers may be delivering vast majority of bass frequencies. With my Klipschorns, including modified crossovers and all drivers, careful placement in corners, modified top plates for max seal I get in room frequency response down to aprox. 32hz at my listening position, REL's crossed over at this freq, and this with only one of the hot wires connected to my monoblock amps, volume knob only two or three notches from minimum. So, essentially the REL's are supplying very little bass in my setup, vast majority of benefit I get is with sound staging, In any case, I simply want the sub to be an extension of the main speakers, coherence is paramount, and this important even with the little bass REL's adding to my system. So for max coherence I posit PC's  on subs should replicate those used on amps, and even preamps, gauges may vary, topology and metallurgy should match. On the other hand, I can envision a situation in which this may not be optimal, perhaps some systems may require a different recipe for amp/pre vs sub.

Used to be the power cables don't do much camp, then I tried a few power cables. 

On my HT setup, I noticed that after installing PC's to my SUB's and amp, that the power draw on my power conditioner went up, quite a bit. At idle everything is drawing more power. When things start to hit, my current draw jumps up way faster and higher.  Sound wise, it's cleaner, but didn't really notice much more, maybe better dynamics.

The sub on my 2ch, took measurements before and after. Test tone, measure, change cable measure again. Got almost 2db higher on the test tone after a cable swap. Bass felt deeper, fuller. After a couple days, I turned down the gain on the sub.

My 2ch sub is a Martin Logan sub array, it had a ok 14g cord. Swapped it with a 10g. 

Weirdly, when I swapped PC's with my streamer, didn't really notice anything. Same for changing power supplies on my TT, no real difference. 

Yes.

It's been argued that there are better "bang for the buck" power cables than Audioquest, but can't think of a single occassion where their $100(+/-) cables have not provided a sound quality inprovement to anything I've connected them to.

Regarding wire gauge, the current limitations to your gear are:

• Breaker size at the panel (usually 15-20 amps)
• Wire size in the wall (should be right-sized for the breaker, so usually 14-12 awg)
• Power cord gauge to the equipment (no need to be bigger than what's in the wall)
• Fuse size in the equipment

Your equipment should not see more current/amperage than the limiting factor of the above conduits.  Considering even larger amps rarely input over 10 amps of current, a case could be made that a 14awg power cord is plenty big for even large power amplifiers.  Not trying to change anyone's mind, but that is what the science says.

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@jrareform,  at one time I had many cables.   I have whittled down the herd over the years but still keep some.  I keep thinking I will list them but then forget about it for a while.  

I have an SVS SB-2000 Pro. It came with a cord just like what I have on my Dell desktop. After a few months of use, I swapped it out for an Audience, Forte F3, 10 guage cord I had laying around.  Did I hear a difference, I don’t know.  I completely forgot it was in there. Seeing as the plate amp is class D and I rarely crank it, I doubt I would ever hear the difference.

@stereo5 yea I know the feeling.  Plenty of gear I need to list as well

I think I'm going to go with some of these well reviewed Amazon chi-fi ones and see what happens.  Hard to justify nice 3 or 4 meter sub cables when I'm extremely pleased with my system with stock cables.  I don't doubt that it could make a difference but feel like there's probably other things I should be saving for.  That T&A D200 calls my name... one day