Atma-Sphere Class D… Amazing

Trying so hard to ignore this thread and the urge to replace a room heating EL34 integrated that takes 20 minutes to hit its stride and will never come with a remote based on principle with a pair of these and a preamp. What is that last 5-10% that does not quite equal tubes? 
 

Not listening to a word this mbmi guy is saying. @soix you nailed it it this class guy has never heard the Atmas-Sphere gear and I will bet he never heard the Voyger either. I suspect his tube gear was weak also.

@soix

Hi,

Their power cables are marvelous sounding in my audio system.
I am utterly happy with them and IMO a very cost effective purchase. An example of a high quality product/company that flies beneath the radar.

Charles 

@charles1dad How are the LavriCables working out for you?  Still liking them?

@drhamp

I can’t say they are equal to the 45/46 SETs sonically, but they are the closest that I’ve heard from a solid state amp.

Nonetheless a true compliment given what it’s up against. Very different topologies with different strengths.
Charles

I’ll call you on your claim that you heard the Atmaspere class d amp and find the Peachtree superior, even dollar for dollar. I dont believe you.

@ghasley +1.  I don’t believe for a second that @mbmi has heard the Atmasphere Class D amp and is just pulling this stuff out of his arse because he likes his Peachtree and can’t afford Ralph’s amp.  Sad. 

I’ve been a 45/46 SET guy for several years now. I’ve been looking for a Class D solution that can approach my experience with the SET amps. I read some of Ralph Karsten's (who I have much respect for) comments re: his Class D monoblocks, I ordered a pair. I waited a little over 3 months to receive them and have now had them in house for about a month. I can’t say they are equal to the 45/46 SETs sonically, but they are the closest that I’ve heard from a solid state amp. Admittedly, I don’t have a lot of reference for that statement, just the best that I have heard.

One additional comment, while waiting for the Atma-Sphere monoblocks to arrive - I purchased an M3a-800S Stereo Class D from a local company D-Sonic. I will say that to my ears, it’s an outstanding amplifier. I haven’t compared it side to side against the Atma-Sphere amps, but it is very close, and at $1500 is a real bargain IMO.

The two amps are playing in different rooms through different systems. I have no idea what the measurements are for these amps, and don’t really care - they both sound really awesome to my old ears and I’m very happy

Hmm, Class D amps.  In the old days, I was just a Class A amp sort of guy; I went from an Pass Aleph 5, to an Aleph 2, then to the Aleph 1.2, which are big bruiser amps that when they reach their stride in terms of operating temperature, it can turn my listening room into a sauna - not a good feel, hah!  I've been toying with a second system where I enjoy swapping components in and out, and I bought a very nice pair of Audio Research DS450M monoblock amps, which are Class D.  For an amp that is not the current Class D design, I like it, as long as it is connected to a good tube preamp.  It stays cool to the touch during extended play time, and it is fast and dynamic; at 650 wpc in to 4 ohms, and it has something like 180,000 uF of capacitance in each mono which aids in that fast overall presentation.  That ARC amp really gets my Utopia and VSA VR-4 SR Mk IIIs singing good.  I like it, but like all things, some will hear and feel different about it.  In any case, congrats on the new amps! 

No one said the Peachtree was Better than the ATMA......But the $3500 bundle with the Gan 400 and the Pre/DAC by Peachtree is one heck of a value for us folks that can't afford the ATMA....the ease of play and subtle details that come out of the music is eye opening....I'm hearing info on songs I've been playing for years with my Tube amps that I didn't hear before. Very detailed and very musical.....For the money...it's supurb. Maybe someday I'll get the ATMA....but for now, I'm a very happy camper....gotta' go listen to MUSIC.

Just heard back from the guy that had brought it over last month. Yes it was the GaN 400….. One I heard last year was the Nova 500.  Neither were as good as the Atma-Sphere Class D.  Will for the fun of it put them side by side in both systems. 

My own extensive experience with my Voyager GaN 350 (said to be the same as the Peachtree) is that is chameleon-like

lol, yeah, with a load dependent frequency response, I would expect quite the ride....

"Class D amplifiers have a low pass filter that can interact with the load if not designed well and that is what we have here. The impact falls clearly in audible band. This would be OK for a budget amplifier in $100 range but not in this class. Depending on what speaker you hook up to this amplifier, the highs may be exaggerated or filtered."

@ricevs 

+1 on your comment about which Peachtree amp

My own extensive experience with my Voyager GaN 350 (said to be the same as the Peachtree) is that is chameleon-like: a change of vibration control devices (the OEMS suck the life out of the leading edge, overall softening the sound), changing power cords or interconnects, or anything in the chain is readily heard. Another huge factor is whether the music is being played at the PROPER volume 

Sounds like someone is having fun with semantics at this thread's expense.

Quite the contrary.

From the distortion spectra, research has shown that certain distortion profiles will produce certain "sound"- compare the distortion spectra of many tube amps vs ss a/b vs class d and you find many describe the tube sound as "warm", "rich", "lush", etc. Class d as "neutral", "clear", etc. Certain harmonic profiles lead to similar perceptions, thus, from the measured performance, we can indeed make certain predictions on how an amp will "sound". Will everyone "like" that sound? No. This isn't semantics, it's psychoacoustics, an admittedly soft science.

hgeifman-  I've had the new Atma-sphere class D monos in my system for exactly 3 weeks today not using a pre-amp and they sound fantastic.  I researched whether or not they could be driven by my Cary DMS-600 before I took the plunge.  They are replacing my tube amp.  I've not used a pre-amp in 11 years so couldn't tell you whether a pre-amp would improve.  The tube amp I ran was a Music Reference RM10 MkII which was ideal for running direct or with a passive pre.  The monos sounded good out of the box but after 3 days came alive.  I'd really like to try an Atma MP-3 with them but it would be a rather expensive experiment.  I was told by Cary that the DMS-600 is truly balanced so I'm not sure I would gain anything.  My system is posted here.  Contentiousness abounds, LOL!  Now back to listening to music cheers.

pstores,

Have you heard (in your system) the new Peachtree GaN 400 or are you referring to an older Peachtree amp?

Well I can say Peachtree when in a quality system you’ll hear the pitfalls of them.  The more revealing system the more pitfalls you’ll see. They are a dry,  lifeless Amp. Lacks in details and is very fatiguing. They won’t even be close to Atma-Sphere Class D. Maybe 40% of the Atma-Sphere at best. Guessing there is some degree of Atma-Sphere haters here. Comparing the Peachtree to the Arma-Sphere is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Mercedes 380SL. JMHO…. 
 

So in the reviews today and tonight. The Tube guys liked the MA-1’s better. The  Pass guys like the MA-1’s better for the Blume, Soundstage and space. But liked the Class D’s over all. As I suspected would happen. My MA-1 tubes are very laid back. If I put different tubes in there maybe a different response. The Pass guys have the XA30.8, XA60.8, XA250.8  x250.5. All very impressed.  Will be putting the class D’s into their systems next for an comparison. A lot of comments like these are only how much?  One comment “maybe the best amp they’ve heard under $10,000”. All agreed at $5400 they are a steal for the sonic qualities. And all agreed there is a degree of give and take between the MA-1’s and the Class D. Like I said next is to put them into others systems and see how they do in various systems. All are world class audio systems. 

Someone doesn't know much about measurements. They may not tell you if you will like it, but they certainly can at least point to how something will sound based on the distortion spectra.

Sounds like someone is having fun with semantics at this thread's expense. 

"They may not tell you if you will like it" is pretty much the same as "don't even begin to inform someone of how it's going to sound" with the difference being the tense and the taste of the individual.

"...certainly can at least point to how something will sound based on the distortion spectra" is another way of saying "meet the low standards of conventional wisdom." albeit from different points of view. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@mbmi I have not heard the new Class D offering…but I do believe Ralph has earned the respect of most of the rational audiophile community whether they purchase Atmasphere or not. I’ll call you on your claim that you heard the Atmaspere class d amp and find the Peachtree superior, even dollar for dollar. I dont believe you.

Yes I have......Atma.....is not worth the $....... Peachtree is a Great price to performance  option...Sorry all you screwballs.. Save $ and enjoy the MUSIC !

@ozzy62 

+1

Peachtree GAN 4000 over the ATMA any day for the $$.....Atmasphere overpriced for their sound !....Better Music for thousands LESS....sorry Bro.

Atmasphere may indeed be overpriced, that's a matter of opinion, but at least it is properly designed and doesn't have load varying frequency response (a fact) like the Peachtree. That failing was addressed 25 years ago by competent class d designers (fact). Really unthinkable that a modern class d amp would have this shortcoming (opinion).

The facts as I see them are most here would like you (you know who you are) to stop blabbering.

Yea, it is sad to see an enjoyable GaN related thread derailed yet again; this one didn't do much better: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/gan-amps-peachtree-or-lsa-voyager

Can anyone spot the common variable between the two threads?  It kind of reminds me of the classic SNL Debbie Downer skits :)

noske..................................Peachtree GAN 4000 over the ATMA any day for the $$.....Atmasphere overpriced for their sound !....Better Music for thousands LESS....sorry Bro.

Newton's laws were fact until Einstein came along, so some facts aren't universal.

Not facts, theories.

Newton's laws were fact until Einstein came along, so some facts aren't universal.

The fact of the matter is, measurements don't even begin to inform one of how something is going to sound, just that it will meet the low standards of conventional wisdom.

Someone doesn't know much about measurements. They may not tell you if you will like it, but they certainly can at least point to how something will sound based on the distortion spectra. Just ask Ralph, who designed the Atmosphere amp under discussion.

The facts as I see them are most here would like you (you know who you are) to stop blabbering. 

The fact of the matter is, measurements don't even begin to inform one of how something is going to sound, just that it will meet the low standards of conventional wisdom.

All the best,
Nonoise

We just have to accept the sonic preferences and experience based opinions as truth for that person.

That’s my point. If we want to compare anything meaningfully and rationally, we have to argue the facts, not opinions. Measurements, assuming they are done properly with functioning equipment, are not opinions- they are objective fact. How one chooses to interpret them can become objective and a matter of opinion.

How something sounds is 100% subjective and tied to one’s unique ears, room, associated gear and preferences. In fact, the only absolute truth of how something sounds, is found in one’s actual experience with the piece and their resulting opinion. That’s it.

Exactly. What others think they hear, while truth for them, doesn’t mean it is truth for anyone else. This is why all the fluffy talk about "deeper body", "better tone", "blacker background", etc. is utterly meaningless to anyone other than the speaker, yet people continue as if it actually means something to others...

Opinions are not facts even in the context here. All you have with any 100% subjective topic is subjective belief, the only "fact" is your belief of your preference and opinion. Facts are universal not individual.

Right on.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan — 'You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.'

@kuribo But you can’t tell how an amp really sounds just by looking at measurements either.  You can have two amps that measure similarly but sound completely different.  Why?  Because we don’t have near enough the measurements that can measure everything that has an impact on sound.
 

No, you can't tell with any certainty how an amp sounds strictly from measurements but you can tell certain things about it's performance, whether it adds distortion, how much, where and when, how it's performance varies with frequency and load impedance, etc.

Sound similarly to whom? To everyone? Doubtful and not realistic. There are too many biases and other factors that enter into subjective impressions.

What measurements are we lacking? Please explain what it is that we are not measuring. Just because something sounds the same to you doesn't mean it is the same, or that it will sound the same to someone else. Of course, there are things humans can't hear, and it is possible this lack of hearing can cause things to "sound" the same, if the differences are beyond audibility.

I ask again, why does it have to be a lack in what we can measure, why can't it be a difference in subjective perception?

 

A-S Class D vs. a highly regarded $3k SRP stereo amp with possibly the all-time lowest SINAD specs, only about 13#, not class D, a patented circuit, released around 2015 and winner of a ton of awards.  The stereo amp had audibly more musical detail.  For unknown reason and there's no way to prove this true or false, I got the sense the stereo amp was more "accurate" or linear; yet in no way did this last point make me favor it.

IMO the A-S Class D had blacker background, the stage was audibly bigger in all 3 dimensions and had an upbeat, more musically satisfying presentation.  Images had more body/density and more air around them.  In the AB test the stereo amp simply sounded more sterile and mechanical.  Like a sharply dressed, quick talking boy that arrived to date your daughter, but he just seems a little disingenuous; he makes you question his motives.  Why does he have such a perfect exterior?  Is it an act?  I want to get to know him better, but he never lets his guard down.    

Overall I favored the Class D significantly more than the stereo amp.  Yes, the Class D costs more but I suspect most people that can afford the stereo amp can stretch funds and/or save a little longer for the Class D, which seems like even better value than the stereo amp considering the awards heaped on the latter.  

A fact is simply collected information and not universal. It is a fact that we each hear differently and own different systems in different rooms. It is a fact that we as unique human beings have varying sonic preferences. This is all accumulated information and fact. Our opinions flow from these differences.

Here's a fact.

How sound becomes hearing.

Opinions are not facts even in the context here. All you have with any 100% subjective topic is subjective belief, the only "fact" is your belief of your preference and opinion. Facts are universal not individual. 

So IMHO, after some in depth listening today so far. I switched back to my MA-1’s. I do prefer the MA-1’s. I like the attack and decay of the MA-1’s better. I like the depth and fullness of acoustic instruments better.  It’s a warmer presentation you’d come to expect from tubes. Although I don’t believe the M-60’s would keep up to the class d. I also believe if someone likes a nice SS Amp like Pass XA 60.8 they may prefer the Class D over the MA-1’s. Also there are a few things that I do like about the Class D over the MA-1’s. To be fair though I rolled a lot of Tubes in my MA-1’s looking for a certain signature. And that’s what I am used to. And the MA-1’s I have are 4 times the cost. So I’d hope they were better. 
  With that said….. Clarity, neutrality and especially realism is where the class d shines. It definitely stays true to the music, instruments and  adds a higher level of micro-details. I hear a few more things in the class d. I am going to roll in some tubes that aren’t as soft and warm in my Ma-1’s. Anyway…. I’ll see what others have to say today and tonight. Hoping a friend can bring over his fully optioned M-60’s soon. I know when I moved up to the MA-1’s it was significant. 
 

JMHO…..

Opinions are factual in the context here. They are factual because of the 100% subjective nature of the topic. Some just can’t handle the truth it seems. Measurements are simply data points. They have nothing to do with the reality of sonic preferences and resulting opinions.

We just have to accept the sonic preferences and experience based opinions as truth for that person. 

We can certainly compare the input to the output and measure the differences, and from those differences make objective comparisons.
Many people actually prefer an amp that adds certain distortions to the output. Some don’t. Subjective preferences don’t have to, and often fail to, align with the actual objective performance.

@kuribo But you can’t tell how an amp really sounds just by looking at measurements either.  You can have two amps that measure similarly but sound completely different.  Why?  Because we don’t have near enough the measurements that can measure everything that has an impact on sound.  Case in point, you can buy an amp and upgrade capacitors, resistors, etc. and the measurements won’t show any difference but the sound can change significantly.  Measurements are useful as a piece of assessing performance but are FAR from being able to sufficiently describe the complete sound of a component. 
 

What are objective measurements missing, other than subjectivity?
 

Wait…ASR is calling — they need you back there ASAP!  Go!!!

Opinions are not facts. Sound preference isn't a fact, we don't get to make up  facts. 

@kuribo “Opinions are not facts”

Opinions are certainly factual in the case of audio and sound preferences. 100% factual. In this hobby/passion of audio we must first recognize this one undeniable fact. How something sounds is 100% subjective and tied to one’s unique ears, room, associated gear and preferences. In fact, the only absolute truth of how something sounds, is found in one’s actual experience with the piece and their resulting opinion. That’s it. 

@ddafoe   …”I find the monos offer a maybe slightly less 'meat-on-the bones', but a wider soundstage, good depth but maybe not quite as deep, but offer a blacker background and ultimately allow me to hear in and around the instruments just as much”
 

Really interesting observation. Exactly identical description of the difference between the Audio Research REF 160m monoblocks that I have been comparing to my Audio Research REF 160s strereo amp. To the word… exactly how I would describe it.

HGEIFMAN, I can give it a try with my Bel Canto DAC tomorrow. It has a linestage preamp built in. 

Is anyone running a DAC direct into the Atma-Sphere Class D mono block amplifiers or is a pre-amp required? From my past previous experiments, I believe a preamp is needed to help the music sound natural, clearer, and engaging. I believe that a preamp helps makes the music more engaging and sounding better.

I do not know. Does the Atma-Sphere Class D mono block amplifier design help them sound great without an preamp? Your comments are required. Thanks......

@pstores 

I am looking forward to the additional listening impressions from your audiophile/music lover friends. Should be insightful and certainly fun.

Charles

Okay, if that’s your position, that’s fine. I don’t believe that people find objective criteria too much to accept. Rather it is inadequate in determining the sonic performance of a given audio product. Anyway, thanks and I appreciate you sharing your perspective on this forum.

What are objective measurements missing, other than subjectivity?

Could it be that while we can objectively measure how well the output compares to the input, we simply can’t account for taste? Is it so hard to comprehend that people’s tastes can differ and that some people just happen to prefer some distortion added in? Why must we assume that there is some mysterious unknown physical phenomena that just can’t be captured by modern science inherent in audio equipment, be it an amp, cables, or whatever, that has to exist to explain the tremendous range of opinions about audio gear when the simplest explanation is that the phenomena isn’t in the equipment but in ourselves?

Is the need to have our opinions validated, confirmed and shared by others so great that we need to invent baseless rationales in order to be "right"? Are we so insecure that we need to seek out the opinions of others rather than be satisfied with our own subjective impressions? Amazing, isn't it, how people will take to heart others subjective impressions of audio gear as if there is truth in them for themselves but wouldn't ever think of letting someone else season their steak or order their meal for them at a restaurant...

It really is ok to just like how something sounds, regardless of whether or not it is objectively superior. And it’s ok for others to not like it.

@pstores 

Thanks for all the useful info on the sound of the new A-S Class D amps. As you continue to listen and compare these amps to other high quality amps, please provide some additional comments on their ability to convey a fullness and richness of tone, especially in piano, voice, acoustic guitar, and upright bass. When I hear about an amp's ability to convey great detail and transparency, I worry that the added detail may come at the expense of a natural fullness of tone. I've heard this effect in several good quality interconnects that provide excellent detail but don't have quite enough "meat-on-the-bones" in the upper bass and midrange to provide the balanced sound I like to hear. Any additional comments in this area of performance would be much appreciated. 

kuribo

I am not "critical and dismissive of actually listening and judging" ...

That statement is inconsistent with this:

Whether or not it "outperforms" other class d amps can only be judged by the specs.

And that’s how logic works.
 

No, it doesn’t. People can certainly listen and form their own subjective opinions as to whether or not they like amp A, or prefer amp A over amp B. As I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are not facts.

When someone says amp A out performs amp B, they are making an objective statement as there are parameters that can be measured and compared objectively. An amp is by definition a device that takes a small signal and outputs a larger version, by most standards, the more accurately the signal is enlarged, the better the amp’s performance. We can certainly compare the input to the output and measure the differences, and from those differences make objective comparisons.

Many people actually prefer an amp that adds certain distortions to the output. Some don’t. Subjective preferences don’t have to, and often fail to, align with the actual objective performance.