Sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement, I used a double run of 10 AWG, which is the equivalent of 4 AWGFor equivalent wire gauge of a double run using same wire, you double the cross sectional area, not the diameter. Looking at this wire gauge chart, a double run of 10 AWG is equivalent to 7 AWG, and this AWG calculator confirms that. Hope this helps with you future calculations. |
Here are a few questions directed mainly at Ralph Atmasphere regarding his post. First Ralph I have great respect for you and your contributions to these forums, your advice has been very helpful in allowing me to push my system to new heights. I will start with a crude question. If a simple power cords can improve the quality of sound to the extent that it warrants its exorbitant price tag, why would you not (as a designer and seller of amplifiers) sell your amplifier straight out of the box with such a power cord. From a business perspective you could be providing your clients with more value and pocketing the added margins that others in the industry are essentially taking from you. From the client perspective I would feel pretty bad about a product that I paid top dollar for and that at a later point I find out that it is not performing at the peak of its performance. Clearly as manufacturer you want to hit a specific price point, but why are the cords then not offered as options at a minimum? Now on to the more technical aspects, I read the link to the Shunyata article, it was a very interesting read. The charts in the article show some numbers and that is a great starting point, I applaud Shunyata for trying to show metrics for their products. Mr. Gabriel is claiming that the magnitude in difference that a cord will limit current between stock cords and his products is 40% or 50%. In real terms are the figures being quoted relevant, and how and why. For example on the graph of the Black Mamba vs the Venom the magnitude of the difference between the two graphs is only large between about 7 and 20 usecs, is this significant? Comparing all the graphs, it seems that the factors that contribute most to rapid current delivery are gauge and surface of contact (i.e. better connector). It would appear that the difference between the Venom 3 and the 14awg Hubble is in the order of magnitude from what you would expect from a 12ga vs 14ga. Would you agree with this observation? Regarding noise and improvements to the noise floor, if you want to filter out noise why not install a filter, why use a power cord as line filter? Finally, when reading through this threads and the many others on this topic there appears to me to be a consensus that apply to all power cords regardless of price or brand, that is there is no way to predict with any degree of certainty whether a particular cord will improve the sound of a given system, the only way to know is to try. This puzzles me. That not every power cord can work in every situation, is something I can understand and would expect. But I cannot comprehend the fact that manufacturers generally dont provide guide lines or target specific applications and even if they do those results do not appear to be repeatable. To me it seems that there is a lot of pseudo-science disguised with high tech graphs and instrumentation and very little testable and refutable theories out there. There you are more fuel for the fire! |
I have a question, Does one reap better performance benefits with some of the state of the art power cords out there versus some of the state of the art tube rolling out there?, currious I am, what's your opinion out there?, In other words, which tweek gives a system the best up-grade?, I understand I will likly do both, just something I would like to know. |
@Rockdanny- When you have your dedicated lines installed: if using Romex, put a good twist in it, over it's entire length, to reduce noise(EMI/RFI) pickup, and to cancel the wire's own magnetic field. When I did mine; I used a double run of 10 AWG, which is the equivalent of 4 AWG. That was over 120Ft, to the room and what a difference, from the 12 AWG that was in there! (http://isadenver.org/Docs/ReducingNoise.pdf) |
I think I hear it, but have not done enough A/B comparisons to be sure. As long as it sounds as good or better to me than before, I am happy, placebo or not. I think not, but these more subtle things are hard to say with absolute certainty without extensive testing that I do not have time nor desire to do |
I have the Pangea AC14SE cords as well, and would tend to agree with Pga on most points except I would qualify that the difference with these versus any other cord might vary widely case by case. In my case, I like the sound with them on my DAC especially and pre-amp in that noise and distortion seems lower, but it is quite subtle and hard to quantify. A nice product though for the cost. I'm sure there are many others as well. Power cords are definitely something to consider when dealing with system power considerations, though its hard to say what is best or worth it. The good new is there are many options at many price points. |
Rockadanny, I've wrestled with the same issue. I recently took the plunge and purchased some Pangea cords. I played around for a few days and decided that my DIY cables were good enough for me. Yes, I think perhaps the AC14SE sounded slightly better when connected to my Oppo103, but the difference was slight and certainly NOT significant by any contrived definition. I use hospital grade connectors and decent wire of either 12 or 14 gauge. Another thing to keep in mind is the size of these cables. Some of these cables are so big and heavy that they need to be supported. You might find greater sonic improvements by investing in room treatments. |
I am wrestling with this issue: I don't have the money to buy an expensive wonder cord. I am trying to determine how to maximize my expenditure. Hypothetically speaking, let's say I had $250. Would it be best for me to spend it all on the best $250 manufactured power cord I could find? Or DIY and spend on the best $200 connector and the remaining $50 on the wire? |
^^ They are all important. I have to say I have not studied the matter enough to know how they all weigh out. I do know though that its harder to build the cable to have good HF response and also keep it flexible, which is required by law (you can't use ROMEX in a power cord for example). I have seen the conductors heat up too. So its pretty obvious that every part of the cable has to work correctly! |
It always amazed me when I hear a pseudo-engineer say "cords can't make a difference if they are adequately sized". No engineer would argue that the following things can indeed make a difference, and are measurable: - different gauges - different dielectric materials - different configuration (twisted, braided, side-by-side, etc.) - different metals - stranded vs solid - shielded vs unshielded So of course cords make a difference. But the art is in figuring out how a particular type of cord will interact with any given component, let alone why, and what effect is to be expected in the resulting sound. That is not so straightforward. |
Hello Abrew19, You are spot on regarding Climate change and science. It has become corrupted by political agendas unfortunately.Listen to NPR for a while and you can't help but notice the bias.Opposing viewpoints aren't tolerated. Sad, as science should be open to all perspectives not just the politically chosen ones. Charles, |
Ralph's explanation makes sense in teh case of power cords for amplifiers in general where efficient current delivery and bandwidth are very important. Some vendors focus more on noise reduction and positive effect of that on distortion for power cords designed for line level gear, especially those that are digital. I tend to agree that the problem to address is different for noise sensitive line level gear versus current hungry power amps, so best to tackle each problem uniquely when designing a suitable power cord. |
Please do Ralph! Alright... With power cords its all about voltage drop across the cord. Some of that is at 60Hz, and some of that is much much higher- well above 30KHz-100KHz depending on the power supply in the unit with which it is being used. I've seen a 2 1/2 volt drop rob an amplifier of about 30% of its output power. The cord was rated for 10 amps, and the draw was about 6 amps. This measurement was done with a simple 3 1/2 digit Digital Voltmeter. The more insidious problem is high frequency bandwidth. The power supplies of most amplifiers have a power transformer, a set of rectifiers, and a set of filter capacitors. The rectifiers only conduct when the power transformer output is higher than that of the filter caps. So: When the caps are fully charged the amp is able to play. As it does so, the caps are discharged until the AC line voltage waveform gets high enough again that the rectifiers in the power supply are able to conduct. Depending on the state of charge of the filter capacitors, this might only be for a few microseconds or it might be a few milliseconds. Either way, the charge is a spike which has very steep sides- and requires some bandwidth to make it happen. If the power cord has poor high frequency response, it will current limit on these spikes. This can result is subtle modulations in the power supply or even a sagging power supply voltage. Romex wiring found in many buildings actually works quite well. So it really becomes all about that last few feet and also how well the power cord is terminated- molded cords generally are not terminated very well. If the ends of your power cord get warm after a while, you know you have a problem! This can be measured, its quantifiable and also audible as many audiophiles know. Anyone who tells you differently probably has not bothered to do any measurements- please refer them to this post. I can go into more depth but this is it in a nutshell. Incidentally, Shunyata Research is refining an instrument that does a more in-depth analysis of what this is all about. At the link you will see that their tests essentially confirm what I have said here. http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm |
Rnm4, What I meant was that it is essentially beyond debate that power cords DO make a difference in the sound of an audio system, not that there is unanimity on WHY they make a difference. And I have no economic or vanity motive in saying that PC's make an audible difference. Just answering the question that begna this thread. So peace, bro (or sis). Neal |
@ atmashere, By all means, prove what I agree with by theory of science, I will learn something here, I can say the Tara labs cobalt power cord with Oyaide Top IEC and plug beat out much more exspensive power cords by a large margin that I have tried on my system, The cobalt has a built on RFI/EMI cerelex devise developed by Tara that to me, has had me re listening to my music collection in awe because I am hearing music that was not there before, what a revelation, wow!, for the asking price, well worth it!, No regrets! |
Nglazer: It's not at all like the "debates" over climate change and evolution, in which the serious scientific community is virtually 100% agreed that yes, there is man made climate change and yes, all life evolved from a common ancestor. There is nothing like unanimity, and especially nothing like agreement upon the explanatory mechanisms at work, in the power cord case. And, unlike the cases of evolution and climate change, most of the people who have strong positive opinions have either an economic or a vanity motive for saying what they say. In contrast, in the climate and evolution cases it's the motives of the deniers that are most obviously suspect. Finally, while you might be able to make up your own mind by experiment in the cable case (though never underestimate the power of psychoacoustics), the parallel claim for climate change and evolution would be absurd. |
I put a pair of 'upgraded' power cords on a pair of electrosstatic speakers once for a friend and all of a sudden, when the refrigerator cycled on, he no longer heard it through the speakers. Not only do better power cords do a better job of delivering power to your coponent - they do a better job at keeping things out. |
Mitch4t asked if any component manufacturer has gotten on board with recommending aftermarket power cords... When shopping for an integrated amp last year ($4500 piece of equipment) I spent some time with a tech from the company discussing my speakers, room, and whether that particular amp was a good choice. After covering all the bases, he asked one last question...did I have any plans to purchase an aftermarket power cord. I said no, just planned to use the one that comes with the unit. His response, and I'm paraphrasing, was basically "good, don't waste your money". It's just one anecdote, from one guy in the industry, but since Mitch asked... I won't publish this gentleman's name, as I don't think it's appropriate, but I'm quite certain he's been in a position to test more equipment than I have, so his opinion carries weight with me. YMMV. As a side note, thanks to my local dealer's in-home demo option I have tried various power cords with my ARC VSi55 (not the unit I'm referring to above, that's in another system), and I could never hear a difference. |
Bojack gets my "best post of the week" award...agree or not, it's fabulous. I like power cord descriptions from Pangea and the like as the bombast kills me...it seems that any system without premium AC cords must sound like screaming death bats, and with them the electrons are SO much happier and more organized when entering the labyrinth of fuses, resistors, transformers, the spleen, chokes, filters, etc., that your system will suddenly rise from a cloud of stinking mud fog and fix your life. |
The right price as a % of retail will vary, especially with wires. Best to set a budget and go with that. Wires are excellent candidates to buy used in order to get the right price. I bought a very high quality $300 retail Pangea power cord new for $90 from Audio Adviser via Amazon recently. So you can see that manufacturer retail prices are often not a good indicator of actual value, especially with hard to nail down products like expensive wires. |
"Has any component manufacturer ever gotten on board with recommending any aftermarket power cords for their equipment?" Mitch4t, one example: Joule Electra recommends Purist Audio Design power cords for their preamps. I contacted them and this was their preference and recommendation. Price of entry though can be steep. I had a used Ferox Dominus once. |
The whole thing about power chord has been blown out of proportion. At the end of the day, it is all about supplying proper AC to your equipment. The problem starts from your home AC socket. The electricity coming out of it is more often than not highly distorted, clipped or noisy. Power chord, being a passive device, can do very little on distorted and clipped AC. Most PC's change the wave form of the AC to vary degree. This causes the sound to change for better or worse. Since the AC in every household is distorted in different degree, no single PC however good it is can do magic in every home. The first proper thing to do before even talking about swapping PC is to improve the electricity coming out of the socket. Dedicated power line and new breaker make a big difference. If it is not possible, an active AC regenerator like PS Audio powerplant is a really good investment. |
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In my systems I also found that an audio grade outlet made a significant difference. I use a Wattgate outlet on a dedicated line that goes straight back to the panel box. When considering the audio grade outlet I A/B'd it with a regular outlet and found the former to be better extended on both ends, the soundstage better balanced, and the sound more liquid. I had heard that Ray Kimber always said that the outlet made a big difference but I was doubtful. I bought one anyway and swapped it in and out to see if I could hear a difference, and I sure did. Power cords make a difference too but based on my experience I'd recommend that you add a good outlet into the mix. |
They do make a difference - or at least they can - but, only sometimes or not. But, as near as I understand it, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for PC designers is proper geometry vs gauge vs length. The big goal being to lower impedance. Noise pickup, or cancellation (or even passive reduction), is another factor. One problem with it all is that this balance of those 3 factors is pretty much dependent upon the given application: whether you intend to use the PC to supply a source (and whether that is digital or analog), or a pre or an amp (even tube or SS??), and so on. But, even with different cords for different apps, there is still another problem: the in-wall wiring in your home. Not only the wiring itself, but what kind of load is being applied through it to each circuit branch in your breaker box. To keep voltages stable over time (theoretically speaking anyway) your home circuit branches from the box should each be given a fairly steady load, or draw, that is only somewhat below the rating on each breaker (safely close to maximum). So, if you have, say, a 15-amp circuit, with a good, relatively stable draw of around, say, 10 or 12 amps most of the time, then this results in voltage stability for that circuit. But, OTOH, if you have, say, a 30-amp circuit that nothing is ever plugged into, then this can contribute to voltage instability in the rest of your house. To us audiophiles, that translates into those day-to-day, time-of-day changes in sound that can plague our systems, sometimes somewhat predictably, although sometimes not. It is often assumed that these voltage swings are always coming from the power outside the home (which can happen), but in actuality it may more often originate from inside the home. Voltage regulators would appear to be a solution, but, ironically, they are usually just as susceptible to these fluctuations as our systems are(!). But, into this unpredictable environment the PC designer must go, but the question is how. I know all the complexities are rather hard to fathom, but that's really my point. Even for the PC designer, there is no way to arrive at any perfect solution under all circumstances. Not only is every system different, but every home's electrical system is different as well. No PC will independently solve an in-home voltage instability (just good old properly designed and utilized circuits can account for a lot of that). But, at least one thing to take away here is that there can be at least some PC solutions that are perhaps very good, or even excellent, in many, or even most, situations much of the time. However, in this context, that means that those PC's are likely not first 'dreamed up' on paper by the engineer, but instead arrived at by trial and error and are necessarily 'developed' over an extended period of time...and only, it would seem, by repeatedly testing under real-world conditions - not in a lab. Which makers will be doing just that and whether or not the cords would make the kinds of changes we may be hoping for in our systems and in our own homes is still the (you-fill-in-the-amount)-dollar question. For my own money, Alan Maher Designs has been doing this for a few years now and is a company I've had excellent results with, but their PC's also utilize passive noise reduction, which, although a 'whole 'nuther thing' in itself if you will, it has worked out to be a big advantage over other makers, for me. Hope all this helps. |
. I've paid $10k for a tube preamp. I still can't believe I could spend that kind of money on a piece of audio equipment. In the years that I've owned that preamp, I believe that it has been worth every penny. $10k is still a lot of money, no matter how good the preamp sounds. I said all of the above to get someone to explain to me a $10k power cord. I mean if you have a $10k power cord, you'd need at least a $40k preamp to hook it up to. I mean, do you buy a $10k power cord for a $10k preamp? Is there some sort of mathematical formula/ratio/percentage for the price of the cord vs the price of the component you are powering? 5,10,20,30 percent? Has any component manufacturer ever gotten on board with recommending any aftermarket power cords for their equipment? . |
Since there is no way to A/B different cords simultaneously, it is hard to tell if there is a big difference between them. Some people claim to be able to hear differences in listening tests that span a time (30 seconds, a minute?) between hearing the same music in the same system (and if you power your system down for a minute or more, you must assume that powering it down makes no change to the sound. But then, many claim you should leave your gear on, especially amplifiers for 30 minutes or more for best results). I'm not sure that I can hear a difference after a minute or more of powering down my system, and trying to remember exactly what I heard before. I think most people who say power cords make a difference would also say the difference is subtle - not huge. The more subtle the difference, the more exact your memory must be to hear that 2%. So I take it all for a grain of salt. That said, I have drank the cool aid and bought various models over the years, never more than $500 for one. The only ones I have seen that have provided -some- measure of science behind why their products should sound better are Shunyata. I had them with a Hydra at one point. I was never able to do a valid A/B listening test that could demonstrate to me, in my system, with my ears, that it was better. And for all the others, perhaps 5 or more, I have never been able to tell a whole lot of difference. My philosophy is to buy something that is well made that will serve your system for a long time. A stock cord might fit that bill. |
Bojack, THE 60s??!! Really!! So nothing has changed in 50 years. While I agree that most make no, very little difference or make things worse there ARE a few that make a positive difference. But like all things audio you do need to pay for the improvement. But there are some that are in a reasonable price range for audiophiles. If your system is not dark/warm but is neutral to bright I would recommend the new entry level cable, HE MKIII, from Waveform Cable formally Kaplan Cable. It lists for $529 and is an overachiever. It is one of the few power cables that lets the instruments natural tone come through. This is in more then one system. One caveat. I have only tried it on amps. |
I have an amplifier that cost more that 5 grand and the manufacturer told me not to waste my money. I don't know one way or the other, but I'm just sayin'. They did say an expensive power regenerator would make a difference, but at a significant cost that rivals the expense of the electronics themselves. What I've always wondered is how the last 6 ft power cords can make a big difference when you can't do anything about all the power lines that run up to the power outlet. I once read an explanation about that (something about the last few feet make all the difference) but I remain skeptical. |
