Brave man, McGowan...
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I listened to a pair of Vandy VLR's powered by the Belles integrated using a Bluesound Node as source. At first the VLR's were using a lower grade AQ cable (GO-4). When we switched to the William Tell. It was quite obvious that the Vandy's were performing at a significantly higher level.-And, this is without a subwoofer. In fact, the new cables enabled the VLR's to reproduce bass almost equivalent to when they had the subs connected. A truly mind boggling event. Now, would I spend that much on speaker cables for a pair of bookshelf speakers? Probably not, unless I heard the difference in performance. Though it might be more rational to buy a higher quality amp and use an off the rack power cord, I think my audition shows that cabling even 2nd tier equipment with high quality power/interconnect/ speaker cables can make a huge difference. Bob |
I've been thinking about this for a bit. Is PM claiming his power regenerators are not actually the best thing since sliced bread??If what PMcG says about his power generators is true, there is no possible way a power cord going INTO a power generator could make a difference to the perceived audio. I am willing to suspend disbelief for many absurd audiophile claims, but this is way too far for me. |
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I suspect AES has already delved into the dodgy and murky subject of do power cords really make a difference and that the AES sub-committee on Testing Weird Audiophile Beliefs has already established beyond a reasonable doubt that high confidence participants proved that power cords all sound the same in controlled double blind tests. |
AES has proven it’s function is to protect the shield, not advance the materials/performance science I have 20 amp dedicated line for my system. When PSA first introduced the Premier Power Plant, I was a dealer (discount). It developed issues after about 2 years. I sent it back and they rebuilt it, but same issues popped up, hopefully their new line is better built, but even more expensive. I replaced it with Core Power. When I upgraded from a Core Power 1200 PLC to the 1800, they gave me what they said was a ’excellent’ PC. I used it that way, but after awhile I decided to replace it with a $900 Tek Line PC that I owned. Well, my whole system sounded much much better in all 3 dimensions well 4; the smiles factor. They are now providing a better PC I am going to be evaluating a new Core Power PC (Valiant) direct from Underwood HiFi: they will also be offering a complete line of cables soon IMHO, Paul should have dropped his prices to wholesale when he chopped off his dealers onions AND he wouldn’t let them sell existing inventory for less (class action anyone?) or return them. No bueno |
You're right he is a brave man, he just told the world that his $9999 AC regenerator is a POS. I can go along with the idea that any cable carrying signal can and will make a difference (some kinda difference). But an AC cord is where it stops for me. Unless you're going to rewire all the way from the power station. Flame suit on! |
In browsing through the thread I see a few people mentioning component noise so I am wondering if the cables are filtering ac noise. To me that means the component is flauded and some of the change for the cable is doing that which would explain to me a quieter background more dimension more details,etc. So I am left wondering how much of an improvement would those cables have on components that already filter nose much better? I know that may only be part of the equation. I just began installing Pliton torodial chokes in my components and that is the change I hearing for a $400 part. Happy listening |
No, cables and power cords are not filtering AC noise. They are oft shielded against external noise of the RF variety but any noise on the AC comes right in along with the audio signal. I am not making this up and I didn’t invent reality. Not to mention there are other types of noise from many sources including the noise coming right through the windows and noise generated by microprocessors as well as magnetic fields. I don’t use cables or power cords personally so I actually don’t have a dog in this fight. But I do know there’s no substitute for Signal to Noise + Distortion Ratio. |
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If I were Paul McGowan the experiment for me would be to "daisy chain" lets say 5 of those P20 regenerators together. First one into the wall and the next one into its output etc etc. He certainly has a bunch of them and they test them all prior to leaving the factory. Speaking of space/time...........I wonder what type of power cables they use at CERN on the particle accelerator/smasher. They are certainly dealing variations of the infinite. |
Bart’s Speaking of space/time...........I wonder what type of power cables they use at CERN on the particle accelerator/smasher. They are certainly dealing variations of the infinite. >>>>>I have it on fairly reliable authority that CERN uses audiophile AntiCables primarily because it turns out they’re really good for observing AntiParticles. 👀 |
Why, are you afraid I will point out the lack of details in his post, no mention of if or how many times they swapped back and forth the cables to validate the change, that I will suggest the P20 wasn't doing its job or perhaps that the P20 has some fundamental issues exacerbated by load cables, that I will predict this "experiment" will never be repeated in a forum/method that allows us common folk to validate the results, or that I will point out that I don't actually mention power cables in my posts, but do mention heavy feeds from your breaker panel .... or all of the above? More likely I wouldn't have posted at all in this thread, but since you felt the need, for whatever reason to bring up my name .... dill949 posts11-09-2019 10:16pmLet's hope atdavid doesn't find this thread ... 😎 |
- Let's hope atdavid doesn't find this thread ... 😎
atdavid: " Why, are you afraid I will point out the lack of details in his post, no mention of if or how many times they swapped back and forth the cables to validate the change, that I will suggest the P20 wasn't doing its job or perhaps that the P20 has some fundamental issues exacerbated by load cables, that I will predict this "experiment" will never be repeated in a forum/method that allows us common folk to validate the results, or that I will point out that I don't actually mention power cables in my posts, but do mention heavy feeds from your breaker panel .... or all of the above? More likely I wouldn't have posted at all in this thread, but since you felt the need, for whatever reason to bring up my name" - Enough said .... |
Yes, pretty much you said you have the maturity of a 12 year old.
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As a big PS audio fan, when it came for a modern power conditioner, I went for the Niagara 7000. I had a power plant premier years ago and found that a passive Acoustic Revive RPT-6 ultimate sounded better. That was 2 generations of power plant ago, though and haven’t heard them. What sold me on The Niagara was mostly the theory behind it and also the fact that (believe it or not) I and also a friend could hear the Niagara’s benefit on power amps on a YouTube demo video. I know it sounds crazy but it was audible. Now I have to go read Paul’s comments referred to in this topic. No matter the outcome of the benefits of the power plant, I’m in love with their BHK300 amps and DS dac. |
Apparently that’s not how many people listen. Basically, if my Null Tester cannot pick up something, my ears cannot possibly pick up 😬Speaking of which, it's really funny when such come to the conclusion that any difference they hear yet can't measure is trick of their mind. So impressions are trick of the mind also. And enjoyment comes from impressions. What's the point of being an audiophile, again? ;) |
Well, on a related, but much smaller scale, I replaced my PS Audio AC-5 power cable going to my integrated amp with an Audioquest Thunder cable a few months back. The improvement was definite but also hard to describe so I won’t try but I’m looking for a Tornado now and will move the Thunder to my streamer/dac. Nice stuff, but I hope I never hear a Dragon, that snack bracket is just too high! |
I want to add a few comments. Anyone who says that "
McGowan’s products are way overrated POS!" is either ignorant or has an ax to grind.I have been a strong proponent of their power regenerators since the days of the premier power plant. Have owned the PPP, the P5, P10,P15, and now the P20. They make a huge difference and everyone i know who uses them agrees with me. I have a friend who read Paul's post about the power cords and was using a Pangea cord for the 20 amp connection. He purchased a Audioquest Thunder power cord which is way less $$ than the Dragon, and he found it to make a nice difference over the Pangea. It does not make sense and even Paul, from his comments, does not understand it, but these things do matter. I admire his courage for throwing that out there. He has a very high level of integrity and does not act from a place of greed or manipulation. |
Just purchased an incredible $10K power amp. It brought my whole system to life - a huge deep stage, with detail, texture and timber I could never have imagined. WOW! just replaced my old ICs! The new $5K ICs make such an improvement on my $10K amp; I can't hardly believe how much better it sounds. WOW! I just added an end all $10K power re-generator to my system - I can't believe how bad all that terrible grid power was making my system sound. WOW!! You'll never believe how much better my system sounds after adding a $10K power cable to my $10K power re-generator. Just when I thought my system couldn't possibly sound any better, I put a new supper-dupper carbon fiber (coated with Graphene) cover over my $500.00 audiophile outlet. It was like removing a vail. All satire of course, but in some cases - more fact than fiction. You can see how ridicules this all may sound too some.......Jim |
I was two fingers away from ordering an s300 along with the stellar pre-amp until Paul named audioquest as an example of a credible manufacturer of good cables, because they actually listen to their products... Yeah right, I can see audioquest listenening and tweaking their toslinks, ethernet and Usb cables... not to mention the dbs battery packs... It's ludicrous. At that moment, PS audio lost all credibility in my book. I'll pass. Must be as hyped as audioquest, in other words not worth the asking price. |
@chrisr... It’s too bad you’d forsake the purchase of the S300 because of Paul’s experience or perception of the effect of a power cable... It’s a spectacular value. However, when I read your post... I got the overwhelming feeling that grinding axes is more important to you than attaining good sound at a good price. |
Just purchased an incredible $10K power amp. It brought my whole system to life - a huge deep stage, with detail, texture and timber I could never have imagined. WOW! just replaced my old ICs! The new $5K ICs make such an improvement on my $10K amp; I can’t hardly believe how much better it sounds. WOW! I just added an end all $10K power re-generator to my system - I can’t believe how bad all that terrible grid power was making my system sound. WOW!! You’ll never believe how much better my system sounds after adding a $10K power cable to my $10K power re-generator. Just when I thought my system couldn’t possibly sound any better, I put a new supper-dupper carbon fiber (coated with Graphene) cover over my $500.00 audiophile outlet. It was like removing a vail.That’s why it’s fun to spend 10-15 USD on those little tweaks like cheap sorbothane feet for the amp instead of standard ones, or carbon pads for speaker stands instead of aluminium+felt ones. Those can make significant and quite improvements but you didn’t spend a fortune or it, and you can really hear every cent invested paid off immediately. |
I want to add a few comments. Anyone who says that " McGowan’s products are way overrated POS!" is either ignorant or has an ax to grind.I have been a strong proponent of their power regenerators since the days of the premier power plant. Have owned the PPP, the P5, P10,P15, and now the P20. They make a huge difference and everyone i know who uses them agrees with me. I have a friend who read Paul’s post about the power cords and was using a Pangea cord for the 20 amp connection. He purchased a Audioquest Thunder power cord which is way less $$ than the Dragon, and he found it to make a nice difference over the Pangea. It does not make sense and even Paul, from his comments, does not understand it, but these things do matter. I admire his courage for throwing that out there. He has a very high level of integrity and does not act from a place of greed or manipulation.Here where I am locally there’s no much experience with P5-20 line, only one guy who praises his P5. However with previous PPP there was much experience and opinions varied. Many have claimed it made the sound actually worse (weaker dynamics, for example). As for Paul, he may be a nice guy in person and he certainly looks and sounds like he really is, however, when it comes to business he’s just the same: he mentions strengths of his designs, keeps silent about weaknesses which he will care to mention only when comparing to something better he has to sell. So with all that stuff it’s usually ’we improved something but we also made something worse on the way, however we won’t tell you what got worse since we need to sell, you get to figure this out yourself’. Anyway, I agree that Paul’s admitting that an expensive AC wire made a huge improvement on his best power plant design tells much about the imperfection of this design, but also about the failure of this design’s primary goal: which was to re-make the AC and make it pure. If AC wire for its input power makes a huge difference there’s no way this goal was ever met. It still doesn’t mean it’s POS, but its marketing certainly is. |
@zalive I agree with the effectiveness of using affordable, readily available products and methods to achieve some very effective tweaks, Having been professionally involved in the industrial tech. industry, dealing with the effects of vibration, resonance and harmonics, I know these can be troubling issues, but solutions, particularly in audio, shouldn’t cost thousands of dollars. Regarding the $10K power re-generator that needs a $10K power cord to really be effective at making a $10K power amp sound great - I’d say "Man you’d have to live in an area with some real sh*t power or just made a real bad choice in amps".....Jim |
Anyway, I agree that Paul’s admitting that an expensive AC wire made a huge improvement on his best power plant design tells much about the imperfection of this design, but also about the failure of this design’s primary goal: which was to re-make the AC and make it pure. If AC wire for its input power makes a huge difference there’s no way this goal was ever met. It still doesn’t mean it’s POS, but its marketing certainly is. I think it might be his polite way of showing that he does not know everything, you don’t know everything, I don’t know everything and..most importantly... The oiler crowd and the naysyer crowd, really need to crack their head open and admit they don’t know everything and to stop attacking things they don’t understand. To embrace the reality that the world is full of unknowns. To understand how science works.. and not attack everyone with ’facts’. As facts are for engineering and this is exploration, the realm of science, which has no facts, only theory. The word fact is a common misconception of the nature of reality and has no place in science. (go ask the entire professorial staff at any university physics department) That the word fact can be bandied about and utilized, but with the fully realized and consciously carried deeper understanding that it is more an idealization of a deeply entrenched and seldom unpacked theoretical set of points or point...that is seldom wrong or seldom found to be incorrect, or not yet found to be wanting. A fact is nothing more than this. Where empirical observation is not to be dismissed. As that is core to the very idea of science.. The two are inseparable. But this highly desirable outcomes is not likely to happen any time soon, for some very basic reasons. This sort of thing (fervent requests to have people open their minds, etc) has been said by others a thousand times over, and maybe some do finally get it..but... others seem to step into their space left open and continue the very sorry attack fest. It is so bad, So rampant, so common...that the very idea of engineering was created as a system of formalized study to deal with such linear thinking mindsets (’fact’ oriented minds) - by the Germans, back in the early 1700’s. |
Setting a pretty low bar for what constitutes bravery. But he is willingly putting business concerns at risk, in some thinking in some people.. Try not to take a swipe at him and his market, like you just did (for no real reasons other than which might likely be selfish ones), and maybe the world will be slowly become a better place. We’ve really got to try and get past these ’kill all whom I disagree with in order to achieve MY peace’ undercurrents of projections that are masquerading as solutions --- that run rampant in humanity. It's kinda tough though, a real catch-22, as the fleshy box we project from and receive via --colors it all so mightily. |
