why do people like quixotic quest make such negative comments on such an obviously subjective thing as music? |
How many 22 y/o college students purchase $3300 amps? I think the salesman was being a salesman. I suppose if a Posrche dealer didn't want to take you on a test drive it was because he's not into cars. I hate to say it but at 22 unless you roll up in a H2 and look like you have cash you wont get much attention from hi end dealers. Just ask a few intelligent questions, show you know what you are talking about, bring cd's, and you'll get good service. |
Just learn to shop on Audiogon. Solve all those problems. :) |
I had my chance to buy my friends audioshop I looked into it did a biz plan etc. and found it to be a dying biz .Only thing floating it was HT home install.Well for years I bought most all my gear from these fine folks but as time moved on and audio types like me started looking into other types of systems instead on giant SS or Tube amp with low eff loudspeakers.This and all the other local shops just moved into more HT gear so if I wanted to buy in town it was order only and wait and even then hardly any choice for gear.So I had no choice but to purchase online and DIY.Audioshops did this to themselfs why blame the customers? |
Move to Denver CO.
We have many execelent shops in town. Although most do HT also they still have an execelent assortment of Highend gear. Both for the HT enthusist and the Audiophool.
Michael |
Perkidin,
At 24, when I purchased my first new porsche, the first sales person did not even want to talk to me so I went down the cubes and found a sales person that wanted my business, this salesperson not only took me for a test drive but really sounded interested in working with me. I paid cash that day. Treat your clients as you would want to be treated. Simple but effective. (oh and back then 911s were only 30,000) |
My experience with hi fi in NH was going into one of the few high end dealers (mostly home theater) and asking about tube amps. I was shown a Golden Tube tube SE 40 amp for about $1000, told all the Chinese stuff was junk, and told to buy this from them used with no warranty. This was the only tube amp in the store at the time. Lack of choice is a major reason I purchase on Audiogon. They also showed me a set of consignment speakers made by " Kestral 2 ". I advised them these were "Meadowlark" Kestral 2's, and let them know the manufacturer was out of business. Lack of knowledge was also an issue with me. Audiogon has been a lifesaver for me, and allowed me to assemble a system I could not have put together from any local dealers. |
As a hi fi saleman of close to thirty years here's my take:
Don't go into a stereo store and waste a saleman's time if, regardless of what you hear, you are not going to buy from him or her and then rationalize your guilt and your ethical obligation away expose facto by saying that you weren't treated right. Tell the salesperson up front that you're not there to buy but to gather information and listen. If he's worth his salt and he has the time he'll spend it with you and enjoy the experience. But woe be tide unto you if you take the salesman away from his floor while he can be making money.
Our perceptions of value outside of nature are nothing more than an illusion and on a very real level buying something from anyone is nothing less than an act of kindness and humanity. The idea that you can quantify, by percentages, the quality of sound or the accuracy of sound or the joy derived from the sound is the silliest thing I have ever heard of. Stereo sales people burn out because they don't get traffic, they can't sell, or they don't love the hobby.
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Burnout is a problem in all walks of professional life.
I traveled the country doing seminars, called 11 Hard Earned Lessons--annecdotal recitations of actual experiences I had had over the years of selling audio.
What separates the good from the great, the great from the spectacular, is passion, and self awareness, and frankly, pride.
When a salesman goes home each night, (audio or otherwise) he or she must, in the quiet moments, ask the question, "What did I do right today?", then "What did I do Wrong".
Oftentimes sales people do everything wrong during a sale, but the customer buys anyway, creating a false impression for the seller--he/she makes incorrect assumptions about the efficacy of his/her work.
Conversely the same sales people do everything right, and even if the customer has the proper ingredients, "money, motivation", (book exerpts) and he/she's established 'value perception' (another exerpt) they STILL may not buy. HOW CONFUSING!
So, the sales person has to be self aware enough to know the difference between, "hey I did it right, he or she just wasn't ready, and hey I did it wrong and, they bought anyway".
Self analysis, with some very astute counseling with a professional sales manager goes a long way toward knowing what happens.
Anacrusis, is the post above, points out that people shouldn't go into a store if 'regardless of what you hear, you're not going to purchase'. That is a good point but it misses the mark slightly.
All sales people dislike having the 'tire kickers' or the customer with the 'friend/expert advisor' who knows more about audio than any 'salesman' could possibly know... but these people ironically make up a great portion of buyers if handled in the right way. (This is hard to do, because time is money, is time, is money...)
Quick story, and absolutely true.
One day a man came into an Audio Store I happend to be in--he wanted the rubber surrounds on his 20 year old woofers redone, as they had rotted, and fallen apart--a $75. item or thereabouts, they were so old as to need rework as they were no longer available. I watched as the service guy took the obligatory information for this virtually unprofitable transaction.
I looked outside and saw the white Mercedez he had driven up in, then at the man's monographed cuffs on his shirt, along with the perfect 'break' in his tailor made pants.
I walked over and said, "Hey, I'm Larry, I'm with THIEL Audio, here to do a seminar, would you like to hear something cool while he's finishing the ticket?" The man said "Sure."
Half an hour later he owned a pair of CS6's and then within two weeks, a Krell Amp and CD player, altogether more than $15/$20K, I can't remember the exact amount.
Sounds simple when I state it this way, but it's not. It's just that, 'burned out' sales people hurt everyone, especially themselves, as they run customers off, sell short of the customers buying potential, and generally wreak havoc on the sales floor. It's hard work selling--being 'up' all the time, but its no harder in a curious way, than repeating the phrase thousands of nights, (if you're playing the lead in a Broadway rendition of the play Camelot), "The rain may never fall till after sundown. By eight the morning fog must disappear. In short, there's simply notA more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Camelot." Telling the same story thousands of different ways, and remaining excited about it is hard work!
Selling is repitition, patience, truth, establishing value, and remembering that each, 'real' customer has a desire to purchase if you do your job correctly.
Sorry this was so long, but it is something that hard working sales people can hopefully identify with.
Larry |
Larry, would your action be the same if the guy was wearing shorts, racing tee shirt, athletic shoes, vintage Elgin watch, and driving a vintage BMW? Such a guy might be able to afford the same products. I see lots of guys that fit your description that are dollar maxed out on maintaining an image. They can't afford to put brakes on their car when they are needed. Salesman always try to qualify a potential customer but appearance can be deceiving. |
I started working in an audio store when I was 16 years old. At about $3.75 an hour as I recall, my only motivation was a love for music and audio.
This cynical assessment of customers ability to spend never entered my mind - perhaps because I was a kid who had previously delivered newspapers and saved up in order to afford my first Hafler amps and Magneplanar MG-1s.
I had never heard of a "Rolex" or "Breitling" and I barely knew the difference between a BMW and a Porsche.
But I tried to treat everyone with an equal degree of service and respect and I became pretty successful at selling.
With hindsight, the biggest and highest margin sales I ever made weren't to customers driving either a new Mercedes or a vintage BMW, but just straightforward, hard working people who came to the shop with a love of music and an interest in learning more about good audio.
The other salespeople, who more typically trained their eyes on the next customers' watch or car, usually missed these opportunities and were always stunned when I ended up writing the biggest tickets of the day.
So Lrsky although I appreciate your points about burned out salespeople not improving the world, and I think it is great that you gave seminars on more successful selling, frankly I think both and Rhljazz are equally clueless - albeit with different politics - about your ability to predict buying habits based on a superficial analysis of your customers car and clothes.
Now if you happened to know not only about the break in someone's trousers but also how to differentiate between a pair of Lobb bespoke shoes and a pair of Lobb off the rack shoes or a pair of Berluti shoes, or you knew a Paul Newman Rolex Daytona from a Chinese fake Daytona, or you knew the difference between a real 73 Porsche 911 RS and the myriad copies on the road, or beyond the break in the trousers you could really spot a Savile row suit or a pair of Turnbull and Asser cashmere socks, well then maybe maybe MAYBE you MIGHT be able to draw some conclusions about his ability to buy, say, a Rockport turntable without the bank calling to interrupt your glorious sale once he hands you his credit card.
But if I were betting in Vegas, I would say that neither of you can discern these differences and you therefore are simply fantasizing that a guy with monogrammed cuffs is a better bet than a heating and air conditioning contracter who just finished his job.
To further complicate matters, I no longer sell audio but advise some of the richest people in the world on their investments.
And I can tell you that despite their genuinely bespoke suits and collections of Patek Phillippes, they can be some of the cheapest penny pinchers I have ever met in my life, and even if they weren't they typically have no interest in audio and are more likely to own Bose speakers than buy a pair of Thiels, after even a good demo.
So in summary, I agree that burned out salespeople should get another job.
But successfully selling audio - or anything else for that matter - has less to do with clumsily ballparking your customers bank account than it does with listening to their needs, understanding their interests and concerns, helping to educate them about the benefits of your products and services, and helping them to enjoy something and improve the quality of their life.
cheers
cwlondon
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Rhljazz,
MOST ASSUREDLY!!! That is axiomatic for any good salesman.
Very good point though for someone who thinks that dress dictates treatment.
I don't wany anyone to think I responded only because he was dressed well--only that I noted we 'seemed' to be letting someone who 'appeared' APPEARED, to be underpurchasing, that is just reconing speakers when in fact, he was probably ready for a better system.
I made it a point to treat everyone the same, yet be careful to note when someone of obvious 'means' or at least spending habits seemingly apparent.
NEVER judge a customer, by the look, that is totally foreign from this message, just a factor in what happened.
Thanks for the question.
Best,
Larry |
Cwlondon,
I was only describing events--you've missed the point entirely.
The man was decked, I saw it and acted.
I can also recant the time when the leader of the band Nickel Creek came in in a tattered tee shirt and wanted a system. Not having heard of Nickel Creek,(before their success) I happily sold him a system that was terrific for a reasonable price. We together loaded it into an older Nissan, which was loaded with paper and cans, etc. Very non pretentious--this was an example not a message to sell those who seem wealthy, just being aware of situational moments.
Please understand, selling is selling, not judging---ever!!
If you read that, I apologize as it's not that message.
Larry |
Lrsky
Again, I appreciate what I interpret to be your good intentions and sincerity here.
But 25 years later, I still cringe at my memories of fellow audio salesmen peering through the glass door to check out a customers car before deciding if they should pounce or continue reading the paper, and/or cheesey leading questions like "Is that a DAYTONA?! (watch)" or salespeople whose most valuable asset was their own watch, trying to project that they were somehow on the same level as what they assumed to be a rich customer.
And to me, this type of superficial analysis contributes to all of the worst stereotypes about high end salesmen with patronizing, chippy attitudes.
While we are on the subject, here is an anecdote for you:
A few years ago, I had a similar conversation with a guy who specialised in selling rare, low mileage air cooled Porsche 911s and Turbos.
He explained to me that one of his best customers was an African American man who drove up to his showroom in a rusty old van wearing a ripped T-shirt and dirty jeans.
The moral of the story is that after he treated this customer with SERVICE and RESPECT, he bought his first car the very same day on the spot.
As he began to trust the salesman, he confided that he ran a cable television company in NYC (made $ millions) but was so sick of being stereotyped either negatively because of his race or positively because of his job that he went shopping IN DISGUISE with the old van and T-Shirt routine, just to see which salesmen would treat him well, regardless of appearances.
To me, this simple lesson in business could cure the majority of problems in high end audio stores and has nothing to do with noticing whether or not someone's shirts are monogrammed.
Cheers
Cwlondon |
The reason that all the components HE has heard sound within 5% of each other is based on the principle that 95% of ALL stereo equipment is absolute JUNK to begin with. |
he went shopping IN DISGUISE with the old van and T-Shirt routine, just to see which salesmen would treat him well, regardless of appearances. It is a routine, isn't it? Either that, or an urban legend that gets recycled over and over in order to prove a point. But exactly what point does it prove? That someone should introduce himself deceitfully in order to expect honesty in return? What a disingenuous way to get what you really want, whereby the only one who wins the petty game is the one who ultimately outclasses even you. |
Evita,
I've been thinking the same thing but could not figure out how to say it so nicely. Bravo. |
Evita
Yes, very well and elegantly stated - the "routine" is ultimately deceitful and manipulative itself. It is sad that people would feel the need to employ that behaviour themselves, and I also appreciate your response.
But on some level, I have to say that I have more empathy and side more with the chippy Porsche buyer, than the hi fi salesman who feels his rarified expertise is wasted when someone innocently asks for their cheap speakers to be repaired.
Because in my experience, there are far more chippy, patronizing, lazy "if you have to ask you can't afford it" salespeople then there are customers wearing disguises. Isnt that why we started this thread?
And those so called salespeople somehow graviate to high end audio stores in higher percentages than other industries which, in my opionion, is one of the reasons that our hobby is hopelessly stuck in a contracting, cottage industry, nobody gives a damn about it mode.
I can see how urban myth stories like this would get started, but your post also prompts a memory of a fellow banker who went into Bergdorf Goodman in midtown NYC with his slinky new younger girlfriend and was treated badly by the salesperson, he thought because he was wearing torn jeans. (Now this guy was not in "disguise", simply badly dressed and a bit of a slob. )
Well, his chippy reaction was to plunk down the Amex Card and buy a $100,000 sable coat for the babe. And in this instance I suppose the salesperson is rewarded despite being a jerk, and the customer is happy because he got to act like a bigshot?
But in the end, what high end audio needs is neither disguised, nor macho big spenders.
What the purveyors of our hobby need to do is a better job educating and delighting paying customers, a better job differentiating, branding, packaging and promoting their products, a better job bring the beauty of music and art into more peoples' lives, and to do all of this with a level of professionalism, charm, charisma, integrity and VIP red carpet service that justifies higher margins which will enable them to have a successful business. |
but your post also prompts a memory of a fellow banker who went into Bergdorf Goodman in midtown NYC with his slinky new younger girlfriend and was treated badly by the salesperson, he thought because he was wearing torn jeans. Slinky new young girlfriends on the arm of a banker carry no less social stigma than does a pitbull on the opposite end of the leash from a skinhead. We're designed to size people up at the surface, so rare is the occasion you will find someone willing to look beyond it. The truth is that unless your friend asks why he got lousy service, he can only presume the reason. If without asking he believes it's because of the torn jeans and slinky babe, then he's already atuned to the image he's presenting, don't you think? You've just described the game, as his disguise belies his ability to plunk down $100K on the Amex. I agree with what you're saying. There are some woefully inadequate salespeople in this industry, and unfortunately so given the pristine nature of the product they sell. In the end, however, I think it just comes down to communicating what you want. And no, not everyone is selling on your terms. But if you want to cut through the BS, just don't bring it to the table in the first place. |
Another issue that compromises this industry is the objective of lowest possible price. As a salesman I was approached fairly often by people who seemed more concerned about the size of the discount than the actual object about which they were asking. I don't know how or why it started but I do not see it going away. Do you? |
Excellent question, Macrojack. I do see it going away, actually. When this latest version of the Roarin' 20s comes to a hammering halt, service will again usurp price as the most important selling tool. Until then, we'll continue beating up a salesperson on price in order to feed our sense of entitlement, a prevalent exercise in our superpower culture, and a practice that has little to do with money itself. Just my opinion, naturally. |
Wow, this thread is amazingly grim. I've had great experiences with all local dealers, plus all buyers and sellers on Audiogon. Is that an exceptional experience? |
Boa2,
I believe you just demonstrated the distinction between knowledgable and informed. I'm cheered to know you are in the vicinity. |
I agree with CS. But as a consumer it's your job to find the best deal for yourself. It's hard to figure out whether a piece of equipment is good. Many dealers balk when you want to bring your own stuff in and hook it up. Better to go with the ones who will let you. Ever hear something at a show that sounded awful that got a good review? Ever hear the reviewer mention the room set up in the review? No. Of course not. Who was right? You or them? Judgement call. This is why people read the forums in the first place, isn't it? People buy here after listening (hopefully) b/c many dealers screw you when you bring back a busted amp and tell you "act of god" or worse "they all do that" instead of actually honoring the warranty. I am not impressed by name dropping expensive equipment. And that is the worst thing about 'gon. Most of the best albums I own were recorded in someone's basement or loft - hardly as nice a set-up as the playback gear on the system lists. I have not been screwed by a dealer but I have had many try. I would be more loyal - there are a couple I support - but many just do not care if they lose more business b/c you got a heads up from them during the sales pitch: "You need new speakers with that amp", "You can't use those interconnects they aren't grounded right", "Broken cartridge? Well, I'm philosphical about the no warranty thing". Right... I'd rather give my money to indy record stores. |
Maybe at this point, we should all just hold hands and have a moment of silence as a community of fellow audiophiles? |
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Mdhoover,
Sorry for my part of the grim-fest. We happen to have a great local dealer, two in fact. And no joke, this community has been berry berry good to me.
Chico Escuela
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Funny and interesting thread. While I don't necessarily agree with the 5% notion, I do agree that you get more for your money than ever before, and that you can put together a fantastic-sounding system for cheaper than ever before. And because of this, I don't find it surprising that the role of the dealer has diminished and that people are price driven.
Isn't it a bit of a dichotomy, though, that in this same thread we're talking about how we're pursuing that last 5% and we're bemoaning why the market doesn't support independent dealers, etc.? There aren't many people who care enough to pursue the last 5% of performance, especially at the price differential, so support any retail outlets. That's no difference than any other specialty industry, and shouldn't be surprising.
The whole music industry seems to want to be able to get away with a 1980's business model, and the high-end wants to follow. I don't know why it's such a revelation that most of the world has passed this by. |
Think of stereo equip as a hill with an increasing slope, the difference in quality is narrowed as you go higher, but the price increases exponentially. But i find there is a "sweet spot" between price and performance.
(thanks to audiogon and ebay, most ppl can take their systems up a notch without price increase) |
I visited a stereo shop in Orange County, So Cal a couple years ago and the salesman insisted that everything I owned was esoteric since it wasn't made by the brands he carried such as Audio Research, Magnapan or Pass Labs. He was really out of touch and uninterested in anything new. Later when I spoke to A'Gon member Viggen about that experience he said he'd been there and talked to the same guy. He said that salesman was crying about his life to him. Oh boy. |
Life is the view from a moving train. Every time you look out the window the scenery has changed. If you ride with your eyes closed like that salesman was doing, you are unaware of the scenery changes. All your perceptions will be based upon your most recent data. I would submit that many of the blue chip audio manufacturers are way out of touch and that the magazines help to keep them that way by rubber stamping praise for every product they introduce whether it is new or not.
There is stagnation at every level. |
Here's some advice for Hi Fi Salesmen and Salesmen of All Things. Love to sell or do something else. Love what you sell or sell something else. If you love audio, you will be knowledgable and always learning. You will demo systems all day because it's a kick and you will sell because you like people, know your clientele and have their best interests at heart. I'd demo a system to anyone who really wants to listen. However, the fact is that, the man that comes into your store with his family,comes there to buy, the man with expensive shoes has money and the man taking notes is going to be a hard sell. Should I as a salesman ignore these facts? Should CWLONDON ignore market indicators? Should we ratify the patriot act? I think not. |
