Choosing Sub-woofers. Please advise ASAP.

Of course I will Tim.  I will also set that up with Johnny at Audio Connection to see what it sounds like.  

Hi ctsooner,

   Understood and I hope you report back on your results.

Thanks,
  Tim 

It will sound awesome.  No doubt.  Hey the Treo's rocked and they weren't even the CT version and had not integrated subs.  No way I'll add any more speakers to the room. Im' trying to get rid of some of the furniture I have built and have in the room, lol.

Hi ctsooner,

    You know my thoughts but it's, of course, your choice.
     I hope your system sounds great to you no matter which direction you decide upon.

Later,
 Tim

Tim, I know we are.  Wish I could get another set of subs, but I doubt I"ll need to.  :)  

Hi ctsooner,

     No problem, we're cool.

Tim

Tim, you can't say that we can't talk about something again, because you don't want to.  That is a major part of my point. I agree that 4 subs is optimal.  You said you were out after your last thread that was pretty long.  Then you post again, so I guess you are still in??  Either way, it's not big deal.

Bottom line is that I have been asking a lot of my audiophile friends if they'd use 4 subs in their systems. Many have active Vandersteen's and they said they would't be able to fit them into the room due to many domestic reasons.  If you have full control over your room and feel you need to spend the extra money, that's awesome. Most don't.  Simple point and hard to argue against regardless of it sounding better.  

Not even really disagreeing with you too much. Only on a few points.  

Hi enginedr1960,

  "Tim you know you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink "

  Exactly right.  My sense is that many agree with the DBA concept and want really good bass response in their rooms  but find it difficult to drink/accept the 4 subs in their rooms.  Understandable but you seem to have found a way to fit 4 Rel subs in your room and you're now enjoying the benefits of a custom DBA.  Which Rel subs are you using? 

  " The rule is three is mandatory and adding the fourth is the end game any more and its a waste ."    

     Have you tried using 3 subs in your room?  I went directly from 2 to 4 in my room and never even tried 3.  I know Dr. Geddes mentioned the use of 3 subs in his White Paper and I'm curious how close you found the results of using 3 subs came to the use of 4 in your room.

     I'm very glad to know at least 1 fellow Audiogon member has tried the DBA system and has firsthand experience with how well it actually works.

Congrats and enjoy,
      Tim 

Hi Tim you know you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink . All i can say my system for the last 3 years was a DSP controlled stereo sub set up I thought I had good bass at least in my one listening spot . Now after hooking up two more REL subs I have great bass all over the room . The rule is three is mandatory and adding the fourth is the end game any more and its a waste .    

ctsooner,

 " What you completely fail to understand is that 99% of anyone, will not be able to use 2 other cabinets in their room, especially since they too have to be placed in specific positions based on your theory."

       I'm beginning to feel like we both just completed our first lap in our ongoing discussion on Choosing a Subwoofer and we're heading back into turn #1 to run lap #1 all over again.  

      I don't know about you, but I'd rather not rehash points we already made in previous posts on this thread.

     I think we've both  already made our viewpoints on choosing a subwoofer clear.  

     I'm going to excuse myself from this thread by making a few additional points and summarizing my thoughts on this subject for posterity:

DBAs using a minimum of four subs have been scientifically proven to work incredibly well in providing excellent bass response in virtually any room of any size or shape.

Complete DBA systems, such as the Audio Kinesis Swarm and Debra systems, offer very good bass response at a relatively affordable price of about $3K.

Custom DBA systems can be created by anyone using four even higher quality subs that they prefer.  However, these may be considerably more expensive with possibly only marginal improvements.

If state of the art (SOA) bass response is sought, a DBA using at least 4 subs is required.

Those numerous Audiogon members and others that believe achieving great bass response is just a matter of finding the right brand or model sub and using 1 or 2 in their system will continue to be disappointed in the results not because their chosen sub is not good enough but because they used too few of them. 

Any bass systems not utilizing at least 4 subs will be a compromise according to acoustical experts and my personal experience. Systems using 3 or fewer subs may perform sufficiently well to satisfy their owners at a single designated listening position but allow too many bass standing waves to exist in their rooms to qualify as a SOA bass system.

Properly setup DBAs result in consistently very good bass response throughout the entire room, not just a designated sweet spot.  This makes it an ideal solution for HT use with multiple seating.

ctsooner has claimed that 99% of people will not be able to accommodate 4 subs in their rooms.  99% smells suspiciously to me like a POOMA number; a number ctsooner would likely admit under oath that "I pulled out of my ass". 

Anyone unable or unwilling to accommodate 4 subs in their rooms will, unfortunately, have to settle for less intrusive solutions that will have lower quality bass performance.

Those who are serious about attaining SOA bass performance in their rooms will find a way to accommodate the 4 required subs. 


 The distributed bass array (DBA) method was initially a theory proposed by 2 acoustical physics PHDs, Dr.  Geddes and Dr. O'Toole.   These 2 experts subsequently conducted scientific experiments that validated their theory and published a White Paper detailing the theory, testing method,  results and conclusions.  The gist of their primary conclusion was that bass standing waves, in a wide variety of room sizes and shapes tested, continue to be reduced as more bass source points (subs) are added.  They state that the majority of bass standing waves were reduced at the point that 4 subs were operating, with additional subs only having marginal affect.  

     As their results were consistently duplicated by other acoustic experts via independent scientific testing, the use of DBA systems to provide excellent bass performance in virtually any room transformed from a theory into a  proven and universally accepted solution among acoustic experts.

     I stated the above facts to make it clear that the DBA method is not 'my theory' but a theory proposed and proven valid by a couple of PHD acoustical engineers.

     Okay, I believe that summarizes my current thoughts on subwoofers and bass systems.  

    I wrote this likely final post on this thread with the intent to share with current and future thread readers what I've learned and the solution I ultimately discovered on my long journey to achieve excellent bass response in my system in my room.

    I hope this viewpoint will benefit others on a similar search.

Thanks,
   Tim   

What you completly fail to understand is that 99% of anyone, will not be able to use 2 other cabinets in their room, especially since they too have to be placed in specific positions based on your theory.  It's not realistic. I"m happy that you have the ability to do it, but I'll take my Quatro's which sound better to me than anything under 30k.  The bass is outstanding.  

The other problem you may agree with, but gloss over is quality.  Bass is by far the most expensive part of the equation and just because someone can afford two extra subs (if they have built in subs which most in the US don't), doesn't mean they can afford outstanding quality subs in order to get better bass. If inferior subs are used, then the bass will suffer much more than just using dual subs that are built in.  That's too is reality.  Doesn't matter how many boxes you use to smooth things out, if it's not top quality, it will sound like garbage. 

I've never heard any aftermarket sub sound great with a Vandersteen than his own. That said it would still be an extra 5k I guess to get two more (that I can't fit into my room for many reasons).  At that point, I'd much rather put that towards better source as I already have 99% of the great bass that my active speaker offers.  

You can make as many posts as you want telling us how great 4 subs will sound and I agreed with you with the caveat that I post again in this thread.  I'm thrilled that you love a specific set of subs. That's honestly awesome and what we all love this hobby.  You can talk about what great quality the swarm subs are, but I'm highly skeptical that they would be up to the quality of most of the subs folks are talking about in this thread as cost is a factor, especially when building bass as it's just hard to do properly and very expensive.  

Hi ctsooner,

     " That said, dialing in the built in bass units using the EQ on each will give you probably 99% (always subjective) of what you would get by adding two more 2W subs and dialing them all in.  The dealer is doing the set up for me as most do.  They will use their lasers and tape measures, but they also have a special Vandertones disk they use to set them up for the bass.  It's really easy to dial in your bass this way."

      For your sake, I hope you're right.  I do think the dealer should be able to optimize the Quatros' bass performance or optimize the Quatro's mid-range, treble and sound staging performance at a single listening position that you specify in your room. The difficult part will be doing both without compromising the performance of either. The lasers, tape measures, Vandertone disk and sub equalizers may help in this effort but the unavoidable laws of acoustical physics cannot be avoided even by the most skilled Vandersteen dealer.following the manufacturer's best setup procedures and using the most advanced tools in existence.

     My main point is simply that optimizing mid-range, treble and sound staging performance while also optimizing bass performance at a single listening position is not a simple process in any room.  This is especially true when the bass, mid-range and treble drivers for the system cannot be independently positioned in the room.  

     It is well known that bass sound waves propagate much differently in any given room, no matter its size or shape, than mid-range and treble sound waves propagate in the same room.  This is not a matter of opinion or debate.  It has been empirically proven time and again by independent acoustical experts utilizing controlled environments and following scientific methods.  

     These acoustical facts, unfortunately, equally apply in all rooms, including yours and mine.
     As long as the drivers launching bass, mid-range and treble sound waves into a room are positioned in the same speaker cabinet, the capability to optimize the reproduction of the entire frequency range in any room utilizing only 2 of these cabinets/speakers will be highly unlikely.  

     My opinion, based on personal experience and acoustical science, is not meant to disparage the Vandersteen Quatros..  I'm almost certain they'll be able to be positioned in your room to reproduce excellent mid-range and treble performance and an excellent sound stage at your listening position.  However, I'm fairly certain that your bass response at this listening position will not be optimized until 2 high quality subs, that can be independently positioned in your room, are added to your system.

     I believe a better design for the Quatros would entail 2 smaller towers containing the mid-range and treble drivers along with 4 small separate cabinets each containing one of their powered subs.  

     The Vandersteen dealer would first position the 4 independent subs in your room to optimize bass response in your entire room. The equalizers in each of these subs could be eliminated to save costs since I don't believe they would be needed in the resulting distributed bass array system.  
     The final step would be to position the 2 smaller towers to optimize mid-range, treble  and sound stage performance at your preferred listening position. 

     Assuming I think correctly that Vandersteen is unlikely to heed my design advice,I believe the next best option is to add 2 small but high quality subs instead.
  
   I wish you the best,
        Tim  

Tim, I won't be bringing in any subs once I get the Quatro's in the house and set up.  What you also should keep in mind is that any of the powered Vandersteen's are set up for the best upper bass to treble response and soundstage.  Yes, that's right on their site I believe.  That said, dialing in the built in bass units using the EQ on each will give you probably 99% (always subjective) of what you would get by adding two more 2W subs and dialing them all in.  The dealer is doing the set up for me as most do.  They will use their lasers and tape measures, but they also have a special Vandertones disk they use to set them up for the bass.  It's really easy to dial in your bass this way.  All speakers are designed with omissions and have to be due to limitations set at price ranges or just due to materials available.  That said, I've never heard of a current or former Vandersteen owner from Quatro up complain about the bass.  I have a lot of friend who have standing wave problems, etc... get them in their room and be very very satisfied.  

Again, would adding two more be better?  Only if they match the speaker and are of the same design as the ones already in the room (in Vandersteen's case, using their 2W or better yet, his newest sub).  

av123 mfw-15 hits frequencies that shake my entire house. I had no idea this sub would produce what it does.

Hi ctsooner,

     I understand that each Quatro speaker has a built in 11 band EQ for their built in self-powered sub.
     I assume you position each of your Quatros so that you achieve the best mid-range and treble response, along with the best sound stage illusion, at your listening position. I don't believe you're also positioning each Quatro for best bass response or even if it's possible to optimize bass, mid-range, treble and sound stage at one listening position even with the 11 band equalizers.  

     Because the built-in subs are located at the bottom of each Quatro just below the attached mid-range and treble drivers and it's known that bass sound waves interact within a room very differently than mid-range and treble sound waves interact within a room, I'm not understanding how it's possible to achieve optimal full frequency response at your designated listening position.  Can you explain how you do this in your room  without the ability to locate the bass drivers independently from the mid-range and treble drivers?

     I think you're only option is to position your Quatros for optimum mid-range, treble and sound stage performance at your listening position and hope the bass is also good with the subs in the Quatros at the same positions.  
     Do you just adjust the bass through adjustments on both subs' 11 band EQs and use trial and error? The supplied amp with the Debra DBA has an equalizer, too, but I have never felt there was a need for any EQ in my room so I just leave all bands set at 'flat'.

     If the EQs are your only bass adjustment method, I think your system is likely to really benefit from the addition of a couple Vandersteen QW subs(or their newer subs coming out).  Positioning these extra 2 subs might be a bit tricky since the existing 2 subs in your Quatros can't really be re-positioned.  
     However, I am not ruling out how effective 2 additional subs could be in your room even with the position of the first 2 subs' positions being set at their current position.  I think If the positions of sub#3 and #4 are positioned according to the standard progressive setup procedure used for the Swarm and Debra bass systems, you're likely to notice a substantial increase in bass performance at least at your listening position and possibly throughout your entire room.

    You seem very pleased with the bass and overall performance of your high quality Quatros.  But I hope you'll arrange a demo of this custom DBA at least give it a try in your room with your dealer. I'd be very interested on your thoughts on the results.


Good luck,
  Tim        

Sounds like a plan Tim.  As for using subs with the Quatros, there is no reason to do so.  That's the whole idea of his 11 band EQ built into them.  It's the same thing with his 7's.  He had just come out with subs for folks who have to have more bass with the 7's.  In order to get even more bass into the 7's cabinet you need to go external.  Physics says in order to move more air, you need larger cones or even more drivers.  I haven't hear the 7's with subs, but I will eventually.  Just waiting on a dealer to get them.  

Hi ctsooner,

You stated: 
" I think it's awesome that you love your sub set up.  I haven't hear the subs, but if you are getting 4 sub 1000 subs for 3k, I have to wonder if they will sound better than a pair of 1500 ea subs that are better quality (not all 1500 subs will be better quality, just making a blanket statement).  My other point is that most folks I know well could never have 4 or more subs regardless of size (and size does matter big time) in their rooms.  Life factors intervene as I posted above. Not debating the quality, just the cost, difficulty to set up perfectly and the ability to fit that many in their listening area (logistics).  That's all.  Not debating at all. "

     It is true that the Swarm and Debra DBA systems are reasonably priced at $3,000.  You get four small (1ft x 2ft x 2ft) but substantial (67 lb)  bass reflex  4 ohm subs with spiked footers and 10" drivers along with a 1,000 watt class A/B sub amp.  I consider these systems bargains given their price and performance.

     In my experience and room, the Debra system clearly provided better bass than my former 2 good quality older Kinergistics 12" subs were capable of.  My opinion is that either the Swarm or Debra four sub systems are likely to provide better bass in most rooms than the use  of  just a pair of subs no matter the price or quality.  I have not actually compared my Debra system to a pair of very high quality subs but would seriously doubt a pair would sound as good unless they were positioned to optimize bass at just a single sweet spot.

     Would the Swarm and Debra's bass performance  be improved upon through the use of 4 even higher quality subs  in the $1,500 plus price range?  Yes, I think this would further improve the bass performance of a DBA commensurate with the performance level increase of the substituted subs.

     I'm very curious how using 4 very high quality subs would sound in my room but I'm in no hurry to spend the thousands of dollars necessary to find out.  I'm currently very satisfied with the Debra's bass performance in my system with the supplied subs.  My concern with spending more in an effort for further improvement is the always present 'law of diminishing returns' in this hobby.  My opinion is that improvements would not be dramatic but marginal in nature and likely be hard to justify given the large expense.

     As to the point about most people not being able to have, or be allowed to have, 4 subs in their room, I consider this the most likely reason for the reluctance of many people to even try a DBA.

      I understand this concern all too well.  My wife thought I was nuts and we both thought we'd have to rearrange our living room to accommodate these 4 subs even though they're relatively small.  But I'm somewhat devoted to the performance of my combination music and audio/video system so I was persistent and managed to convince her to let me give it a try.
     Fortunately, I was able to position each sub where it sounded best while keeping their physical presence disguised (the front 2 hidden behind each of my 6' x 2' panel main speakers and the rear 2 partially hidden, 1 behind a leather chair and the other behind a large end table).

     Of course, not everyone will be able to locate 4 subs in their room as discreetly.  If this is the case,  each individual must determine how important very good bass response throughout their entire room is to them.  Those who think it's important will find a way to accommodate 4 subs.  Those who don't will need to use 2 or less good subs and settle for good bass at only a chosen single sweet spot.

Tim

ctsooner,

     I forgot to respond to the last part of your post where you stated:

" Yes, I like how Vandersteen runs his subs by taking the signal from the mains the way he does and crossing over where he does do the sound of the bass is consistent with the sound of the main speakers. I also like the idea of having a semi active speaker like the Quatro on up.  If done properly, it also will relieve the main amp from having to run anything from 100 or so down and that helps the amps sound better as they aren't having to deal with the bass load which is very difficult for any amp.  Lot's more dynamics current available for the mids which folks don't realize is where a ton is needed on transients."

     I don't disagree with anything you said.  I think your point about reducing the main amp's bass duties so they can sound better and have better dynamic range is important.
      I've never actually heard the Vandersteen Quatros but, from the pro reviews I've read and from your comments, I consider them very high quality speakers.  I'm glad you're enjoying them and I have no desire to convince you of anything except the benefits of a good DBA.  
     In fact, with a powered sub already existing in your room inside each Quatro,  perhaps you would only need 2 more subs to reach the required 4 sub minimum for a DBA in your room. A pair of carefully positioned Vandersteen WQs,  combined with the pair of subs in your Quatros, may result in a very high quality DBA in your room.

     I chose a somewhat different approach in my room.  I read some information from acoustical engineers that suggested, for best reproduction of the entire audible frequency range, any system should be constructed based on how various sound wave frequencies will interact with the room.  They explained how bass sound waves interact and propagate within any given room very differently from how mid-range and treble frequencies do so.  Basically, the lower the frequency the longer the sound wave produced. All sound waves are going to be reflected by room boundaries (walls, ceilings and floors).

     The only known and proven method for significantly reducing bass standing waves caused by the very long bass frequency sound waves reflecting off room boundaries and crashing into each other is the use of 4 or more bass sources (subs) in a DBA system.  This will provide very good bass response throughout the entire room.
      Unfortunately, the much shorter mid-range and treble frequency sound waves also bounce off room boundaries and cause standing waves.  But there's currently no known method for significantly reducing mid-range and treble standing waves so that very good mid-range and treble frequency response can be achieved throughout the entire room.  
     The only currently known solution is to optimize mid-range and treble response at a single listening position or sweet spot.  This is done via speaker positioning and angling as well as room treatments (absorbing and diffusing  panels) at critical reflection points.  The goal being that direct mid-range and treble sound waves launched from the speakers arrive at the chosen sweet spot location before (even milliseconds before) the reflected sound waves arrive.

      Because of the above, these acoustic engineers advise constructing a system from the bottom up.  First get the bass foundation right by installing a DBA consisting of at least 4 subs.  Then get the remainder of the frequency range right by installing your speakers of choice and optimizing their positioning and angling and room treatment for a given listening position 'sweet spot'.
     
     I followed this advice, installing the Debra's 4 subs for optimized bass response first and then positioning my Magnepan 2.7qr panels for optimum mid-range and treble response at my listening position.

     This works very well in my room and your method seems to be working very well in your room.

     We both did well!  
     More than 1 way to skin a cat, right?

  Tim   

there really is no difference in this than there is for setting up speakers properly.  It's all about perfect set up and using the best quality subs you can.  The problem is that some folks will read what you post about how great it is and then assume they can use any sub and get great sound. This isn't how it works.  You can not get an inferior sub to sound better than a great one because of this set up.  You still need great sounding subs that can be set up like this.  

I think it's awesome that you love your sub set up.  I haven't hear the subs, but if you are getting 4 sub 1000 subs for 3k, I have to wonder if they will sound better than a pair of 1500 ea subs that are better quality (not all 1500 subs will be better quality, just making a blanket statement).  My other point is that most folks I know well could never have 4 or more subs regardless of size (and size does matter big time) in their rooms.  Life factors intervene as I posted above. Not debating the quality, just the cost, difficulty to set up perfectly and the ability to fit that many in their listening area (logistics).  That's all.  Not debating at all.  

ctsooner,

     
     As you heard at that high end store in NYC, distributed bass array systems work incredibly well.  They provide excellent bass response that is capable of being taut, textured, detailed and nuanced while also capable of going deep and powerful when the content calls for it.  Because of this, how they integrate so well with any quality or type of main speakers and work in any room no matter the size or shape, I consider them an extremely good bass reproduction system.  

       However, DBAs are not perfect.  A minimum of 4 subs are required to achieve this great bass response throughout the entire room.  Individuals must also make a few decisions before deciding to deploy a DBA in their room:

1.  Do they want great bass response throughout the entire room or just at one optimized listening position?

    The use of 1 or 2 good quality subs can be utilized, if positioned properly, to achieve very good bass response at a single listening position in a room typically called a 'sweet spot'.  The compromise of this approach is that bass response will not be good at numerous other locations in their room due to bass standing waves at those locations. The bass will sound exaggerated, under-emphasized or even nonexistent at these locations.
      The use of 4 or more subs in a DBA is the only currently known method that has been empirically proven to achieve very good bass response throughout an entire room.  
     The choice and ramifications are clear, either you find a way to accommodate the extra subs or you settle for very good bass response at a single sweet spot.

2.  Do they want a very good complete DBA system (like the $3K Swarm or Debra) or do they want to create their own custom DBA  (using 4 even higher quality subs of their own choosing that will be considerably more expensive)?

     I know of only one person, another Audiogon member enginedr1960, who created his own DBA using 4 Rel q201e subs.  He says it's working very well but I haven't heard it and he has never heard the Swarm or Debra DBA.

     I'm completely satisfied with my Debra DBA for both 2-ch music and HT.  However, I would think substituting other high quality subs in a custom DBA would likely sound as good or even possibly better.  Verrsatility is just another of the many benefits of the DBA approach.

     Yes, I am biased but only because I know it works so well.

     Tim  

Tim, I agree with you on using multiple subs.  The problem becomes that in order to do it, you MUST place them in exactly the correct positions. If you don't, you lose everything you are trying to accomplish. It also is very costly when you start using top quality subs. You can't get better sound using multiple subs if the subs you are using aren't the same quality as two great subs.  Can't fix what's wrong by just adding more of the same (not talking about anyone's subs specifically).  

In discussing this with a designer, you need a dedicated room typically to make this realistic.  There is no affordable way to do multiple subs when you are talking about high end systems.  You also need to keep in mind what main speakers you are augmenting when using subs.  So many folks don't realize this.  I think that's why I posted what I did. Again, i'm sure your subs are outstanding, but 95% of us can't put 4 or more subs in our rooms, especially where they must be placed.  I've heard arrayed subs in show rooms in the past and loved what I heard. I specifically remember hearing them about 10 years ago in NYC at a high end store, but I hated the mains they ran them with, but it cleaned up the bass a great deal.  

Yes, I like how Vandersteen runs his subs by taking the signal from the mains the way he does and crossing over where he does do the sound of the bass is consistent with the sound of the main speakers. I also like the idea of having a semi active speaker like the Quatro on up.  If done properly, it also will relieve the main amp from having to run anything from 100 or so down and that helps the amps sound better as they aren't having to deal with the bass load which is very difficult for any amp.  Lot's more dynamics current available for the mids which folks don't realize is where a ton is needed on transients.

ctsooner,

  I agree with much of what you posted: listening is subjective, audition and make up your own mind and some other statements.

  However, I think you have a misunderstanding of the main points I'm trying to convey. I'll attempt to clarify.

      The main thing I'm espousing is the concept of the Distributed Bass Array System  (DBAS as an acronym).  Specifically, the use of a minimum of 4 subs that are precisely positioned within a room in a progressive locating procedure in order to significantly reduce the bass standing waves throughout the room.  The result being excellent bass response, with no bass peaks (bass overemphasis), bass nulls (bass under-emphasis) or bass cancellations (bass absence), throughout the entire room and not just a single 'sweet spot'.

     What I am definitely not espousing is a certain brand or model of sub.  I know there are many very good subs because I've heard many of them.  Rel, JL and Vandersteen come immediately to mind when I think of some of the best I've heard but there are other very good subs as well.

     An important aspect of deploying a DBAS is that it can be done with virtually any make and model of sub preferred; the only restrictions being that 4 are required and they need to be precisely positioned within the room.  Good DBA systems are truly sub agnostic.

    The concept of the DBAS is typically credited to two acoustical experts, Dr. Geddes and Dr. O'Toole, who have written white papers and conducted empirical experiments on the subject.  I can provide links to their work if you'd like.
     The gist of their findings is that bass peaks, nulls and cancellations continue to be reduced within a given room as more bass sources (subs) are added.  
     They realized there is an obvious practical limit to the acceptable number of subs in a commercial or home environment. Critically, they discovered that the use of 4 subs strategically positioned eliminated the vast majority of bass standing waves within a given room, with additional subs being only marginally effective.  This is the reason most DBA systems utilize 4 subs.

     You're correct, my intent is not to offend anyone or denigrate their preferred sub.  My intent is only to bring awareness to how well the DBA concept works and the fact that absolutely no microphones, room analysis/room correction software or room treatments are required.

     I hope I've clarified my position,
          Tim   

Tim, that may sound best for you and that's awesome. We all have our passions in audio, but to make some of the statements you make are not correct.  There is not scientific measurement to say any speaker or sub is the best way to do it.  There are many ways to do things and listening is subjective as we are all built differently. That can't be refuted.  

There are plenty of products in audio that test great, but sound like crap.  Some do sound good to many folks and measure adequately.  I rarely see products liked that measure poorly.  From the looks of it, you can mention ten different high end subs and they all go about things differently.  You like an array of subs, some else likes fewer or another design or Vandersteen's taking the signal off the main amp (my favorite).  Size certainly does matter if you want to move air (that part is physics and isn't subjective).  

Lot's goes into it and no matter how much data you may present and how passionate you are, it doesn't make you more correct than the folks who espouse REL or JL or Vandersteen or any of the numerous other subs.  The irony is that you are pushing your subs, but you have turned off more than a couple of folks and I'm sure that's not your intent.  Just invite folks to audition and make up their own minds.  

dlcockrum,

   You were right, that thread did keep me busy for a while.

    Unfortunately, I still feel the spirit and will likely continue to be a DBA (Distributed Bass Array) system disciple and spread the 'good word' about how well they perform compared to the use of 3 or less conventional subs no matter their quality or cost.

    I may be on a mission from the audio gods.

Thank you for being my enabler,

           Tim

I personally love how Richard Vandersteen goes about making his subs. Both the WQ as well as his newer high end one that goes with the 7mkII's or any other higher end speaker you may be using.  Matches so well with other top end full range speakers.  

David Gage of Deep sea sound makes the best Sub that i have ever heard .
He happens to be right here in my town of Knoxville,TN.
I have had the  MARIANA 24SC 24" SUBWOOFER in my house   for a Demo.
Unreal clean output to about down to 6-7 Hz in my room.
Right now i think they are one of the best subs out there, period.
http://www.deepseasound.com/collections/all
http://www.deepseasound.com/pages/contact

In case anyone is interested, here's a professional review of the distributed bass array system I posted about earlier on this thread:
   
AudioKinesis Swarm Subwoofer System | The Absolute Sound

 This is actually about Duke Lejeune’s Swarm system but it’s virtually identical to James Romeyn’s Debra system that I own; exact same 4 (1 sq. ft. footprint by 2 ft. tall 4 ohm) subs with 10" drivers, 1,000 watt class A/B ampifier along with the exact same setup procedure and wiring method.

Tim

That thread should keep you busy for a while. ;>)

Best to you Tim,
Dave

Dave,

     Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately, I found Raul's posts somewhat incomprehensible at times.  But that didn't stop me from posting a lengthy post on his thread earlier this afternoon spreading the word on distributed bass array systems.  I can't seem to help myself and you are now officially an enabler.

Thanks,
  Tim

FYI Tim:

http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer?page=9

Best,
Dave

Dave,

"One more finger in reserve.."?"

    Cool.  Thanks for clarifying.

     I just wanted to put my thoughts down.  I know I have no control over what readers do with the info I give and that's fine with me.

     I think I'm just still a bit amped up on how well this system works for music and HT that I'm a bit too anxious to share the knowledge.

      I keep thinking my excitement of how well it works
will wear off.  But I've now had the bass system for about a year and it still makes me smile every time I listen.

Thanks,
  Tim

"One more finger in reserve.."?"

Meaning that the OP went with a different solution, not the middle finder salute. :)

I am sure that you have discovered something of merit, Tim. If anyone will listen, that's another matter. IME, doesn't help to oversell.

Dave

Dave,

     You stated:" Nice to know Tim. Nothing like being set up by someone with an agenda to push posing as a real person. Shoulda known."

    My wife has often accused me of 'posing as a real person' but I didn't expect this from you!

     I'm such a big fan of DBAS that I've probably seemed a bit too enthusiastic to some readers.  I actually can understand how some may question my agenda.   My only 'agenda' is spreading the word on DBAS due to its extraordinary effectiveness in generating great  bass performance in any room due to its ability to eliminate bass standing waves without the need for ANY of the usual expensive but comparatively ineffective tools such as bass traps, room analyzing microphones, room analyzing software, bass compensating software or bass compensating equalization.

     However, I can assure you I have absolutely no financial association in the manufacture or sales of distributed bass array systems. After many phone calls and emails communicating with James Romeyn, the owner of James Romeyn- Music and Audio LLC in Utah where I purchased my DEBRA DBAS, I do consider him a friend but there are absolutely no business agreements or arrangements between us.  


Dave, you stated: " I only listen from one position as I am only one person at any given point in time. As for having four subs, I am probably already in the extreme at having two. I am sure there are a few audiophiles that are able to overcome the expense and freedom from real-life constraints (WAF and such) that can or will take advantage of your recommendations. Bet you can count them on your fingers.   You can stop trying to solve the issue for the OP as he went a different direction. One more finger in reserve..".
 

     I understand the OP decided to use 2 JL F112-V2 subs in his system.  For current and future readers of this thread, however,  I'm going to list the main reasons I believe this was not a good choice for many who are considering the best choice for low bass performance in their rooms and also to refute some of your comments in your quote above.:

1.  PERFORMANCE-

     I know the JL F112-V2 are very good subs. My issue is not with the quality of the subs the OP chose but the quantity of subs and their positioning.  As I've stated multiple times on this thread, it has been scientifically proven that 4 subs setup in the distributed bass array system method is the best solution discovered thus far at eliminating bass standing waves in any room regardless of the room's size and dimensions. This results in very good bass response  that is accurate, smooth, extended and these qualities are consistent throughout the entire room.  

The JL F112-V2 manual also recommends the use of 4 subs for best results.  Here is the exact quote:

" Research indicates that the smoothest bass response for a large listening area can be achieved using four subwoofers, placing one at the midpoint of each of the four walls (although using two or three subwoofers can be almost as good) "

     This quote is accurate with the exceptions  of the positioning recommendation and that 'using two or three subs can be almost as good".  .  The JL positioning  method is rather rigid and may not work in every room.  The distributed bass array method is much more specific and is customized to each  room.
     I am not aware of any scientific proof that two or three subs perform almost as well as 4 subs at reducing bass standing waves.  I'm  not stating this statement is false, just that I'm currently unaware of any scientific verification.of this statement.

     To be fair and honest, I think 4 JL F112-V2 subs would likely outperform 4 Audio Kinesis subs (probably in deeper bass extension) if both were positioned using the same distributed bass array method.

   However, using just 2 JL F112-V2 subs could possibly sound good at 1 listening position if both subs are positioned using the distributed bass array system procedure with the listening position treated as the reference position  But this will also unavoidably result in multiple bass standing waves at numerous other spots in the room that will cause bass perception at these positions to be exaggerated(peaks), diminished (dips or nulls)or even non-existent(cancellations).  Not a problem in your situation but is much more important to many others.

     

2. WAF-

     We all know this is variable by user dependent on the quality and nature  of your 'W'.  My opinion is that most wives would be more amenable to the look, size and discreetness of the Audio Kinesis subs than the JL subs. Here are some facts and I'll let each reader decide based on their own W's likely reaction:

Each JL F112-V2 weighs 117 lbs. and is 15.1"W x18.5"H x17.8"D
Each Audio Kenisis weighs 67 lbs.and is 14.5"W x 23.75"H x 10.375"D

JL F112-V2, I believe, is only available in black gloss finish
Audio Kinesis subs are available in a wide variety of wood finishes

My opinion is that the Audio Kinesis subs, being smaller and available in numerous wood finishes, would be considered by most wives to be more discreet than the larger and gloss black JL subs

     After following the progressive setup procedure, my front 2 subs sounded best located along the front 16' wide wall of my 23' long by 16' wide living room.  Each front sub is located about 1' away from each side wall, hidden from view by a 6' high by 2' wide Magnepan panel speaker that is positioned about 3' in front of each sub and also 1' away from each side wall.  From my listening chair located in the middle of the back 16' short wall  opposite  the front, both front subs are completely hidden from view.
     Sub#3 sounded best along the 23' long left wall about 1' away from the back wall.  Sub#4  sounded best along the right 23' wall about 1' away from the back wall.  Sub#3 is hidden from view by a large leather recliner and sub#4 is hidden from view by a large wooden end table that is between sub#4 and my listening chair.  Overall, the 4 subs do not call attention to themselves and, therefore,  very discreet.
     
  .  

3. PRICE/VALUE-
     . 

The complete Audio Kinesis DEBRA system(:4 subs and a 950W amp) is priced at $2,990.

 The mrsp of 4 JL F112-V2 subs(optimal performance according to JL) is $14,800, although a buyer buying 4 would likely to get a significantly reduced price of I would estimate at about $12,000. The OP would be very fortunate to have struck a deal for 2 JL F112-V2 subs for twice the price of the Audio Kinesis system. Clearly, using 2-4 of the JL subs is significantly more expensive. than the Audio Kineses complete system.

     I would think more than a handful of audiophiles would be interested in a bass system solution that outperforms 2 high quality subs, has a higher WAF and costs thousands less.

" One more finger in reserve.."?

Later,
Tim  

 


 .   

      . 

Nice to know Tim. Nothing like being set up by someone with an agenda to push posing as a real person with genuine interest in learning. Shoulda known.

I only listen from one position as I am only one person at any given point in time. As for having four subs, I am probably already in the extreme at having two. I am sure there are a few audiophiles that are able to overcome the expense and freedom from real-life constraints (WAF and such) that can or will take advantage of your recommendations. Bet you can count them on your fingers.

You can stop trying to solve the issue for the OP as he went a different direction. One more finger in reserve. Keep counting.

Dave

Hi Dave,

     Thanks for the explanation.

     The method you used, playing the sub at your listening position and then walking (squatting) around the room to find the spot where the bass sounds best and then locating the sub to that spot, is the exact same method in the distributed bass array system procedure that I used to place my first sub.

      Doing it again for the 2nd sub placement, while the optimally placed 1st sub is playing, is also the step#2 that I followed.

     However, I disagree with your statement : " You can certainly compromise for a good "all-around" placement but it will only perform optimally in one location in your room for a given listening position."

     I think you're correct if only 2 subs are utilized in the room.  The DBSA (distributed bass array system)'s use of 4 subs in a given room is the key and I found it has the remarkable and empirically proven affect of eliminating all bass standing waves in a given room.  The result is optimal bass response evenly distributed throughout the entire room.  

     The only reason your good bass is limited to a single optimum listening spot is because you stopped halfway through setting up a DBAS in your room.  I am reasonably certain that adding 2 more subs, following the exact same positioning method you used for sub# 1 and 2, will result in the very good bass response, that you're now enjoying only at a single optimal listening position, expanded to every possible listening position in your room. 

     I'm a huge advocate of the DBAS only because I use it and know how amazingly well it works.  It is a system developed by 2 PHDs in Acoustical Engineering, Dr. Gettis and Dr. O'toole, that is based on math and physics and been scientifically and independently proven to be effective numerous times in various rooms.  

     Their published White Papers on their research and experimental results state that as the number of sources of bass wave propagation (subs) in any given room increases,   the number of standing bass waves in the room decreases.  They mention their realization that there is a practical limit to the number of acceptable subs in any residential or commercial space.  

      In a crucial statement about their findings as it relates to home and commercial usage, they also stated that they discovered that a minimum of 4 sources of bass wave propagation (subs) are required to eliminate the vast majority of bass standing waves in any room tested in their research results with any additional subs only resulting in marginal improvements.  This is the reason  most DBAS utilize 4 subs.

     My opinion is that the above is critical information for the original OP, sautan904, to consider when setting up his new system. I'm not sure whether he understands  the info, believes it  or has just chosen to ignore it, however, since he has opted to go with just 2 subs.  My concern is that he doesn't realize the results are completely predictable and inevitable regardless of your room dimensions.  

      When he discovers his 2  sub system results in numerous bass standing waves and resultant uneven bass response in his room, the good news is it'll still be solvable by an extra couple of subs.  

Tim    

Hi Tim,

Glad to give it a shot.

What I said was that I use the RELs out-of-phase to cancel standing waves due to room bass nodes. The improvement in soundstage happens due to the sub(s) loading the room with sound pressure, either "in-phase" or "out-of-phase". Works both ways if your sub(s) is capable of true ultra-low frequency reproduction and the crossover is set properly (at the lowest crossover frequency setting in my case).

To set up the sub(s) for soundstage enhancement, adjust the crossover frequency and output levels so that the bass enhancement effect of the sub(s) can be felt but not heard. The best way to do it is sit in your preferred listening position and have someone turn the sub on and off (or use the remote if applicable) and adjust crossover and level controls until you don’t notice much difference in the bass level when turning it on, but the soundstage collapses somewhat when you turn it off.

I positioned the RELs by ear. Lots of time and moving the subs to find the best spot by trial and error. One trick for finding the best starting location is to place the sub where you sit and move about the room until you hear the sweet spot, then move the sub to where you were standing (or even better, squatting) when you found that sweet spot. If using two, do it again with the second while the first, already optimally placed, is on.

My experience is that it is impossible to place a sub where it will sound its best "throughout the entire room". You can certainly compromise for a good "all-around" placement but it will only perform optimally in one location in your room for a given listening position.

I hope this helps some. Let me know if not.

Dave

  Dave,

     Very interesting how you're utilizing your 2 REL subs set to 'out of phase' to reduce bass standing waves in your room.  I haven't heard of this  before.  

     You state that this has actually reduced the perceived bass at your listening position but, due to the subs loading your room with low frequency sound pressure and your mains ability to go deep, this has resulted in an enhanced soundstage at your listening position.  

     I'm not completely clear on this but, since it's working so well for you, I want to learn more about this method.  A few questions if you don't mind:

1. How did you decide where to position  your subs, through a set procedure or trial and error?

2.  Can you be more specific concerning the sound qualities that result in your perception that the soundstage  being enhanced?

3.. Did you set it up so bass is best at your listening position, or so bass is good throughout the entire room?  

Thanks,
  Tim
 
 

"A full range speaker should sound better with a smaller sub by virtue of its FR and the fact that it’s producing decent bass on its own already. Conversely, a small speaker should benefit from a bigger sub to cover a wider range."

It doesn’t work that way. Here’s the "old school" principles:

Smaller woofers/subs are TYPICALLY more limited in extreme low frequency output than larger woofers/subs. Since the presumption is that the OP has "full range" speakers already and wishes to further enhance the ultra-low bass output of his system, the larger woofer/sub SHOULD go lower, providing more ultra-low frequency enhancement, all things being equal.

Further, if the OPs "full range" speakers already have a strong mid/upper-low frequency output, adding a smaller (higher frequency output) woofer/sub will create boominess in that range (major overlap in the midbass). Worst of all worlds IME.

Conversely, a smaller woofer/sub should TYPICALLY be quicker and more tuneful in the mid/upper-low bass frequencies, thus easier to integrate with a "smaller" speaker, assuming that the latter’s low frequency output rolls off a significantly higher frequency than a "full range" speaker (minor mid/upper-low frequency overlap of the smaller speaker with the smaller sub’s higher output frequency). Ultra-low bass will not be enhanced as with the larger woofer/sub, but that is irrelevant if integration is poor.

Many potential exceptions to this are experienced in the real world as it depends heavily on the cabinet size/design of the sub, crossover adjustment flexibility, design (ported vs sealed), amplifier’s power/characteristics/ability to control the woofer, and placement. Also the newer concept of digital room equalization/correction built into the sub’s digital electronics (a’ la’ JL Audio and a few others) negates the "old school" rules to some extent, allowing a larger woofer/sub to integrate well even with smaller main speakers by tuning/contouring the sub’s output (increasing or reducing the output at certain frequencies based on system characteristics/room acoustics as measured by a microphone and processed by the sub’s digital circuitry).

Subs can also be used for entirely different purposes than "bass enhancement". I use two REL Stadium III sub’s fed via the high level inputs from my amp with the subs’ crossovers set to "out-of-phase" mode to cancel standing waves due to room bass nodes, actually reducing the perceived bass heard at my listening position, and to enhance the soundstage (by loading the room with sound pressure from the subs) as my main speakers need no low-bass enhancement, but actually the opposite in my room. Works quite well.

Dave

"Your speakers are pretty full range so you’ll need 12 inch or larger to extend lower if needed at all. Two are better than one for balance across the room."

I would think the exact revese to be true. A full range speaker should sound better with a smaller sub by virtue of its FR and the fact that it’s producing decent bass on its own already. Conversely, a small speaker should benefit from a bigger sub to cover a wider range.

I have Vandersteen Treo's.  I believe I just sold them and I'll be getting the Quatro's.  Why?  The subs are built in and they have an 11 channel EQ.  I have yet to hear any sub that sounds as good IRT musicality.  They will shake the room.  That said, he's also making a sub that matches with the 7 mk2's.  It's not cheap, but it's special.  Richard will tell you that if you want to move as much air as possibly, that you can just add a sub to each channel, including the surrounds.  

akg-ca,

     I enjoyed reading your post on the Vandersteen 2Wq sub system  and I think it could be a very good bass system with a few modifications.  I especially like the subs taking their signal from the main amp in order to better integrate the overall sound with the main speakers..  Your post states:

" It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks."

       In order for this statement to be true, however, I believe the Vandersteen system would need to utilize 4 2Wq subs and utilize a much more precise distributed array method for locating each sub.  There was no mention of where to place their subs and simply placing them at convenient locations in the room will inevitably result in uneven bass performance throughout any given room.
       The only currently proven method to eliminate bass peaks, nulls and standing waves (providing accurate and even bass response throughout the entire area) in any given room is to use a minimum of 3 subs, ideally 4 subs, with each sub positioned according to the distributed bass array procedure.  
     I think the Vandersteen 2Wq system, with 4 subs and setup in the distributed bass array method, could perform equally as well or possibly even better than the Swarm or Debra bass systems.

Thanks,
 Tim  

          

The following article has been posted before and is rehashed again below - one of the finer reads in the subwoofer selection tree discussing this....

Draw your own conclusions.

http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs- ... subwoofer/

"…And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find

Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers.

Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems.

The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck.

We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land.

You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money.

Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good.

I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse.

Why? Because of their crossovers.

A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer.

The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass.

They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls.

And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.

The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets.

Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal.

So how does Vandersteen do it?

Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more!

No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable.

So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass.

A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it.

But there is a problem here as well.

Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers.

The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension.

Fortunately, Vandersteen has the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT!

After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music.

Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts.

This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs.

So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close.

You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers.

Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen.

It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks.

And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments.

Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins.

Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever.

The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room.

So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations...."

Cool. I was thinking of single F212v2. Well, I will stick with my original plan F112v2 then. Thanks 

I can give you some personal experience. I use two JL Audio's F112v2's in my 14' x 18' room along with Mac MC501 amplification and Wilson Sophia 2's, Watch center and Watch surrounds. Had the room professionally set up and it works beautifully. I don't think you will need any more bass than that!

No.

I used to like Velodyne and they look great too. But I think I pretty much lock in JL Audio right now.

New question. Does the single unit w/ dual drivers subwoofer works the same as having 2 separate single driver subwoofer?

Hi Sautan,

If you're looking at JL Audio and REL, give Velodyne a look as well - their digital drive series is fairly comparable in quality/price/performance and they have a lot of options that may suit your needs. As far as size is concerned, I'd go with a 12" over a 10" because the difference in "musicality" is negligible (in my opinion), and a 12" will tend to have better bottom-end extension. I run a HT company in Atlanta, so if you aren't already working with a local dealer, let me know and I'll be glad to help in any way I can.

Take care,

-David

Cable. I found Nordost and they are pretty expensive but not sure how it will work. Will check with local dealer but anyone have any experience with flat cable?

" Now, nothing related to sub but anyone know good decent Flat cable for my surround pair where I need to hide under the rug."

Not a good idea. Use a real pair of speaker cables. You don't have to go with anything really expensive, but you don't want to run cheap install cable to a $12,000 pair of Wilson's. Get something higher quality that matches the front speakers (It doesn't have to be exactly the same, just go down 2-3 steps in the same brand). As far as running it goes, figure something out. Maybe run the cables down the side walls and cover it with molding.

When I redo my listening room, I'm going to install the molding with a gap in it large enough to fit cables. Then all I have to do is run a wire snake through the gap and pull the wires through. For high speakers (Atmos), you can do the same thing with crown molding.

@ Al

Yes, I have scheduled electrician to install addition 6 outlets on top of the current 2. Individual circuit breaker for every 2 outlets.

Now, nothing related to sub but anyone know good decent Flat cable for my surround pair where I need to hide under the rug. I originally want to raise the floor so i can hide all cable underneath but the Wilson dealer said NO NO. Raising floor will degrade the sound quality because it will be holo and bass will reflect. I guess it's true?