Disappointed w/ Klipsch Heresy III. Now what?

I’d recommend you sell your new Heresys, get another pair of Ohm 1000s, and put your money where you should have--in a more powerful amp. That’s all you needed with your previous system. 35wpc for a pair of Ohm floorstanders was a bad match, no matter how mellifluous the Brio can sound.

The Ohm 1000s have a realistic bass extension down to 34 Hz. Although the Ohm 1000’s sensitivity rating is 88dB (which is pretty good for a speaker like that), you need a low output impedance and hefty power supply to make that deep bass come alive.

By contrast, the Heresy is down a claimed -4dB at 58 Hz! You could pump all the watts and current you want into the Heresy, but its bass extension would be MIA nearly a full octave short of the Ohm’s low frequency extension. You'll never get the sound you want with that much bass missing.

The Heresy was never designed as a full-range speaker. It was made to complement a pair of Klipschorns, which by design *must* be placed in the corners. The Heresy was designed to fill in the gap between such widely spaced speakers. The corner speakers made plenty of bass, so bass wasn’t a primary consideration for the Heresy design.

Trying to recapture the linear, phase-coherent real-life frequency extension of the Walshes via the Heresys will bring on endless tail chasing. You could play that system 24/7 for 5 years and the "break-in" will never get that last octave of bass. You’re not going to get the subtlety, nuance, bass extension, and room-filling dispersion  of the Ohms either. You could add a subwoofer or two to add some bass, but then you’ve added another $1K expense, only to have gone from a pair of elegant Ohm columns with a room-filling omnidirectional pattern to a less compatible combination of low-powered British integrated, 60-yr-old design horn-based main speakers, and powered subs.

Cut your losses; Get rid of the Heresys and Brio, get another pair of Ohm 1000s and an amp that they deserve. You spent $2k on the Heresys and didn’t get what you wanted. Add subs to fill in the bottom octave and you’re out another $1K minimum for a total of $3K. And that’s no guarantee you’ll like the results.

For $2500 you could have stayed with the Ohms and gotten a Rogue Sphinx v2 with 100/200 wpc into 8/4 ohms and a tube front end, all for $1295. For $2500 you could have gotten the monstrously powerful Parasound Halo integrated amp rated at 160/250 watts/channel into 8/4 ohms with an MM/MC phono preamp, plus a DAC that handles pretty much every digital format. It’s a Stereophile Class A recommended component, by far the least expensive integrated amp in that category.

Having chased audio nirvana over a span of 45 years (including some time as an audio sales guy) I’ve developed a sense of choosing my battles, and I think you could spend more time, money, and frustration trying to get a pair of Heresys powered by a Brio to meet your requirements than to return to what you already had and replace the Brio with a more appropriate amp.

I would get good sounding earphones and a dedicated amp....you will not get anywhere near the sound that provides in speakers .   Your baby and wife would love it.

Sorry OP but I don't think the Heresys are your cup of tea. I have a pair of H3s and I have run them with a number of amps including Quicksilver mini-monos. The Heresys do not image all that well and need a little juice to get bouncing. A sub does help but they are not a reference level system. I would not spend a lot of time or money trying to change the way they sound. You might like the sound of the reference series a lot better. Hope this helps.

If you can, keep them both, at least for a while. Learn to appreciate what each technology brings. Both have advantages and serious shortcomings, imo. A simple switch from omni to HE box is not an easy transition. 

Stay loose, you'll need to. :) 

@macnut5,

Yes, I do own Heresy IIIs. My pair is about 4 months old. I have them only 8" from the forward wall and their bass is deep enough for most types of music. 

58 Hz is the -4db roll off point according to Klipsch, and based on my listening I'd have to concur. I'm not saying the Heresys don't benefit from a sub, but in my average sized living room, they certainly don't roll off anywhere near 120 Hz. If you have your speakers placed something like 30" from a wall (a typical bass kill zone) then I wouldn't be surprised if you're missing a lot below 100 Hz.

@brooklynluke 
I concur with posts recommending additional break-in. Many speakers require 600 hours to settle down.
I bought a pair of Zu Bookshelf speakers last year and suddenly, after many hours of playing, they sounded better than I remembered.
I don't know why this happens, but, in my case, it did.
I would also get one of Atma-sphere's amps. They are one of the finest amps I have ever heard. PM Ralph and see if he has one.
Bob

Helomech, so your staetment is based on what? Do you own Heresy 3s? Have you ever made any measurements? If so, let's see them. 
I do own them and have used my Velodyne software to plot both un-corrected bass and corrected bass.

Check out the pranafidelity Bhava speakers. Real magic

jjaudiosolutions.com

@macnut5,

The Heresys do not begin roll off at 120 Hz. You must have some major room nodes if that's what you're experiencing. With the right room and placement they have useful bass down to about 45Hz, and the -3db roll off point is approximately 60 Hz, give or take. 

Have you tried pointing them slightly upwards? You simply place something underneath the front feet/spikes of the speaker to change, somewhat slightly, the vertical direction of the speaker. It will be very hard for your eye to ever pick up the slight change you have effected but I had somewhat the same problem and this helped. Acoustics can be nearly as important as the speaker itself as I would imagine you known Changing the focus of the speaker can work magic in some instances, one of which being clarity and definition at low volumes. Good luck.

Do you have the opportunity to try them in a different room?  High efficiency speakers really benefit from boundary reinforcement and if you can't get them to "lock" into the room you will never get the sound you want. For years I have had a set of Cornwall's that I never used much. Often thin, tinny with washed out bass. Much the sound of what Ralph describes with phase issues. A few years ago I moved and fired up the speakers in the new house.  Enormous difference, top to bottom and almost the opposite of what I had experienced. I bought a pair of ALK crossovers ( Wall Scala which can be used with Heresy I believe) with taps on the mid and tweeter to further dial them in. Now they sound completely even, coherent fleshed out, almost creamy and at all volume levels. If they don't work with the room I doubt equipment changes will help enough, but the ALK crossover is killer. 

Brooklynluke, I have owned a pair of Heresy IIIs for several years. I pair them with a McIntosh solid state preamp/amp setup and use Nordost interconnects and speaker cables. I will offer a few comments.

Firstly, not to offend but letting WAF dictate everything you do with your system is a sure route to disappointment. I have the same concern with my wife’s disapproving comments regarding the look of the components in the room, the visible wiring, etc. But I have found it necessary, while honoring some of her requests, to be insistent with regard to my audio needs. I find that if I explain why the speakers/compoonents need to be where they are and involve her in the conversation, she will slowly relent and after awhile I hear no more complaints.
Secondly, my H3s did improve over time, but I think that after 100 hours you should be getting most or all of what they have to offer.
Third, you are allowing everything but sound quality dictate your speaker placement and orientation. I believe that a 10’ spread between the speakers is just too much. Six or seven feet apart, with a slight toe-in would be appropriate. If you point them directly at yourself so that you are looking directly down the axis of the horns you will experience harshness. And a good seating position would be 12 feet or so from the speakers.
Speaking of harshness, Art Dudley wrote a review for Stereophile a few years ago in which he basically liked the H3s but found them too harsh in the high frequencies. I’m sure you could find this review is still online.
Third, my personal experience with cables and interconnects has shown me that the do indeed matter a great deal, and that more expensive does not necessarily mean better. To a certain extent they act like tone controls, accentuating some parts of the spectrum over others. I found that some of the lower priced Nordost cables worked better for me than the more expensive ones and yielded a more balanced sound. For me, the choice was more detail but less tonal fullness with the higher priced cables. I tried to go with 12 gauge braided lamp cord for my speakers, hoping that this cheap hardware store solution would give acceptable results. What I got was a smeared sound that was unacceptable.
Fourthly, I think you may have mis-interpreted one of earlier comments someone made about using risers. He was talking about using the risers that are already supplied with the H3s to tilt them upwards. You seem to have interpreted his comment as a recommendation to get speaker stands. I have not tried aftermarket speaker stands myself. If you do, I’d like to know your results.
Fifthly, I do find that a subwoofer is needed with the H3s as well as with every other speaker I have owned. The H3s are only good down to about 60hz, and they start dropping off way before that (above 120hz). I have a 15" Velodyne that I position in the corner of the room.
Well, that’s about it for now. If I think of anything else I will post it. Good luck!

I don't believe it's your speakers. While they won't Image like the Ohms, the resolution can and should be outstanding. I had Klipsch for 25 years. I also had a Rega Brio  and experienced the same dull sound. The Klipsch LOVE tube amplifiers. I recommend an amp from Decware. They build to order and the price is great because they ship direct and cut out the middle man. Call and talk to Steve Deckert. He knows his stuff. 30 day trial and a lifetime warranty! You can't lose!
Best wishes, Jeff

The limited placement options are your challenge. In my experience, for low volume listening, if you cannot play with placement, you might try dipolar or bipolar speakers. Those are more airy in a greater variety of listening positions.  Less sweet spot oriented. Problem is those need to be out from the wall.  My Maggies are wonderful low volume speakers.  But the wife never goes in that room...

Also, Roon has some DSP and room correction features you might play with.  

That said, babies make a lot of noise.  Headphones for the next 3 years, then try again.  Your utopian idea of everyone in the living room talking and you still listening to music at high fidelity is very sweet, but if that happens for 10 minutes per day you're doing better than I ever could with the family.  Best audio in my life during that period was in the car!

That's true. Babies prefer solid state.

A tube amp with a new baby is not a good idea.

My Heresy III's are about 10 months old. They took a long, long time to break in. Have been very pleased with matching them up with a new Pass First Watt J2 power amp.

You should remember that the Heresy was designed (I'm guessing reluctantly) as a small 'center channel' for Klipschorns, which were designed in the monaural era and happily ate a room corner. The stereo age was a disaster for the behemoths as many spouses were understandably opposed to having another corner taken up. But for those who were able to run two, it became apparent that the wide spacing (like yours) led to lousy stereo imaging. Klipsch was always an 'advocate' of a center channel, something no properly phased stereo setup should need, for this reason alone. Thus the little Heresy was designed to emphasize the vocal range, not to act as a budget Khorn (though that didn't stop them from eventually marketing it as such).

Hi I'm a Harbeth and a Lyngdorf dealer.

If you want to keep the Heresy speakers try them with the Lyngdorf TDAi 2170 it will make them sound the best they can sound.  The 2170 will make the volume issue much less important as each frequency will get the correct voltage to make the speakers sound good when you use the Lyngdorf room perfect.  The 2170 also has a really great built in DAC.

If you don't want to keep the speakers the entry level Harbeth P3ESR sound great at lower levels.  �Small drivers produce less volume which may help you.

What you describe is speaker placement issues. I had a pair of the originals and had the same complaints. Spent a lot of time with placement and they ended up sounding wonderful for what they are of course.

I have a pair of Heresy IIIs and I absolutely love them. I run them with a vintage Scott 299c and the pairing is a match made in heaven. I’m no expert but to my ear every genre sounds great on it. Source is exclusively the VPI Classic which doesn’t hurt, the Scott has a great phonostage. My vote is to get that vintage integrated, have it rebuilt and then give the speakers time to break in. Also the big soft couch between them is gonna kill the soundstage but we all have to make do the best we can and sometimes that’s a big soft couch between the speakers, oh well. Get the vintage amp and enjoy. A Scott of Fisher would be perfect. 

Hi , good question with some great advise . I have a pair of Heresy II's. I tried different combos too . I switched from SS to an Antique Sound Labs 30 wpc integrated tube amp . I rolled tubes , settling on Winged C EL 34's and Tungsram driver tubes . I placed the Heresy's on 12" tilted wooden stands , before settling on Sound Anchor stands 24" high . I tried different speaker cables , interconnects and power cords . I played CD's and DVD's. I never tried internal speaker mods , but Crites is a good Idea . I also ran a Klipsch reference series 10" sub . After about a year ,I  purchased a used pair of JBL 4312A's . This was a substantial improvement over the Heresy's . But 30 wpc was not enough for them . In retrospect, I prefer the KG series over the Heresy's. I'm now running ZU's. The JBL's and the Heresy's reside in the closet . I'm running ZU's with low power . I do plan on modding the Heresy's with new Caps or crossovers , as well as new wire , terminals , bracing and dampening . You should  try to audition some different stuff . The 3 pairs of speakers that I own are completely different in sound from each other. I think that a high quality pair of bookshelf speakers with stands and a sub would yield better sound and meet your wife's criteria. The Heresy's are nice , but the oddball of the series . Above all speaker placement is paramount . Give them time to break in. Then take a day and move out the furniture and set the system up placed correctly. Then spend the afternoon listening . Then you will know if there's room to improve or you want different speakers . But be sure they are broken in . I just purchased 2 pair of Morrow interconnects that took about 600 hours to mature . Good luck and happy Listening , Mike.

I have Heresy IIIs and have used them with a number of amps.

They do not like high power SS amps, nor will they do well with any class D amps or cheap AVRs. Contrary to popular belief, they’re not best with low power SET amps either.

They perform very well with a moderate powered tube amp, something around 25 to 45 watts, such as KT88 based amps.

If you want an affordable tube amp that’s built as well as any other and can make the Heresys sing, look for a Cayin amp such as the A70T or A88T. One of these will really show you what detail retrieval is all about.

Heresys do have a narrow sweet spot, there’s no real getting around that, especially at your listening distance. I personally don’t mind it, but I can understand why it’s a deal breaker for some. Most speakers sound brighter with excessive tow-in, so experiment with reducing that some.

If you think Heresys are harsh or fatiguing, you won’t like Harbeth C7s. I know many will claim otherwise, but I’ve had both speakers in my system for extended periods and the C7s are the more fatiguing speakers. They’re not the slam-dunk, can’t-go-wrong speakers that many would lead you to believe. I know all the Harbeth fanboys will get bent reading this, but IMHO, the Heresys are a better speaker except for the narrow sweet spot. They are far more dynamic and detailed at lower volumes, especially with a tube amp.

Heresys will expose weak points in your chain as well. In my case, it was my DAC that was making the Heresys just a tad unrefined. Once I switched to a different, albeit still budget DAC, things vastly improved.

I’ve owned and auditioned quite a few sub $3k speakers over the last few years and the Heresys are the best at low volumes by a country mile. Of course, you may just decide you hate them. No speaker is the perfect solution for everyone.

I feel your pain. As a owner of Klipschorns and Cornwalls, I can tell u Klipsch speakers are very efficient, but not necessarily pleasing. From your post, youre wishing they were not as "loud" as they are. Unfortunately, that's the sound of a horn loaded speaker.  EQ may help, but there are a lot of purists that think EQ is a four letter word. The only way I know to get a warmer sound is to get a high current tube amp. The extra power is needed for those Cymbel hits and deep woofer sounds. I don't think u will ever get rid of the loud sound without it, and probably won't even then. That's just the sound of a horn.  Room treatment is sometimes overlooked. Absorbers and diffusers may help. Try to cover any glass, such as windows or pictures. I recently removed all the glass from my pictures. I realize the wife factor, but just saying. Try to make a triangle of your speakers and listening position, with no glass coffee tables etc. Place them out from the walls and try an intimate triangle with your listening position and the speakers. One inch in placement can make all the difference, as well as toeing them in. However in the long run, you're still going to have horn loaded tweeters. 

If you listen to Jazz and good acoustic music, Magnepans. 

With my listening room I'd have to build a set of moveable corners…The Heresy IIIs I listened to recently were powered by a cool little SS Luxman M-200 25 watt per side (did not know that amp existed, but then I don't get out much) amp that sounded great, and that amp has a display that will show you how many watts it's using. Cool indeed. I think it hit maybe 3 or 4 watts.

Its a very good idea to experiment with placement to get a better handle on the room acoustics. In most cases things are far from optimal when waf is a big factor and that is often tricky to address well with just eqiuipment changes. 

I’ve considered Klipsch Heresy or similar Klipsch for use with my Bel Canto c5i digital integrated. Wonderful 60 w/ch Class D digital integrated with all the modern bells and whistles. No tone controls but this amp is smooth airy resolving and neutral like the best tube amps but makes all speakers I use with it sound their best ever. As long as 60 w/ch is enough. Plenty for the Klipsch and enough to do a very nice job with Ohm Walsh as well to which I can attest.

I would not approach this as an equipment problem.

The issue is speaker placement and room acoustics. Can you do anything on the latter? 

If not, bring the speakers closer together and as far from the side walls as possible.

You can experiment with blankets and pillows. Throw some on the floor between the speakers, add a rug, put temporary items on the walls next to the speakers as an experiment. Q the peanut gallery.

This is just an experiment to see if you can find some idea of how room acoustic improvements could benefit you, not a solution. If you like what you hear, reach out to GIK for professional solutions.

Best,

E

Okay, I am thinking next step is to try a different amp. One thought: vintage Marantz, like a 1060. They are cheap, solid state but noted for their warmth, and they have tone controls. What do people think? And what would be some other options? (Not a lot of tube amps with tone controls!)

Tubes are still around because at their best they sound more correctly.
Rega is not really a name for amplification, the idea to try another amp is a progressive one. Trying both solid state and tube amps would be perfect. Better amps not necessarilly more powerful.

I don't see why you can't throw any genre you want at this speaker. It should be able to handle anything.

So far we don't know what's going on in this system- it it really the speakers or are the speakers simply revealing problems upstream? I don't think I would take the speakers seriously while having only heard them on a solid state amp though. Tubes are still around for the simple reason that solid state often sounds harsh.

Wolf beyond the bass enforcement possible with corner placement (which can be tweaked with exact placement relative to corners), I find it also works very well with wider baffle more traditional box speakers in particular in terms of enlarging and opening up the sound stage and thereby reducing "congestion".

I recently heard a pair of Heresys at a shop and thought they sounded great but did pull them away from the corners. I don't need no corners! I own a couple of REL subs so the upper bass reinforcement provided by corner placement isn't needed. I'd have to try these things in my room before replacing what I'm using and luckily the dealer allows the demos (broken-in) to be taken home for that purpose. 

Jimmy Hughes in the UK reviewed the Heresy's and seems to have got good results with the Shanling MC30.
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/klipsch-heresy-iii-loudspeakers-hifi-plus-71/

COrner placement with Audio Note speakers is a very good suggestion. A/N corner setups are always among best sound at shows I’ve been to.

But guess what? You can do the same corner placement trick with most any good quality speaker (including Heresy) and get similar results. I do it all the time now with my traditional box design speakers as needed both old and new. The A/Ns are very nice but have no monopoly on corner placement. Give it a try just for comparison sake. I’d love to hear how that works out.

+2 on the Audio Note speakers. I've had both AN-J & AN-E Lexus Hemp and they were very satisfying. Gear matching and placement is very flexible.

It's not surprising to read that the Heresy are not satisfying. Personally I need Forte's or better to really start enjoying Klipsch. 

Mofojo, for music I mostly listen to jazz or classic rock, some country and bluegrass. So acoustic instruments are priority one. So far, Pianos sound consistently bad. Acoustic guitars sound consistently good. Upright bass is anyone's guess, totally depends on the record. Classic rock: simple arrangements sound good, wall of sound recordings are a disaster. 

Jond, I will look at audio note!

If you do decide to ditch the Klipsch consider Audio Note, their speakers are designed to be place in corners. They are attractive, quite sensitive and easy to drive and sound great. I just got a pair of AN/J's and couldn't be happier. And they are not horns!

Don't know guys... I haven't found any genre of music that don't sound good on my current system and my tastes are quite eclectic.  Your system either reproduces the signal you feed it or it doesn't.

Would I like the sound of rap?  No because I find no musical value in it.  But...well recorded Rap might "sound" just fine.

Nor do you buy Klipsch to listen to opera, I guess. Speakers don't play equally well everything, what "some people say" is puzzling.

You never did mention that I saw what kind of music you listen to? Some people say a good speaker should play equally well everything but frankly I find that to be pipe dream. you wouldn't buy Sonus Faber to listen to metal for instance. 

2nd the Harbeths . Completely satisfied 1 yr now with Compact 7ES-3s . Still love the traditional look. I had Fortes in the late 80s- good looking but harsh sound with state of CD/digital back then.

I'm still thinking that speaker break in is definitely a problem. I worked in the audio/video industry for over 25 years and have experienced speaker break in with many brands, Klipsch being one of them. Most will say 200 hours for break in and that will hold true for many speakers, however some will take much longer, 400-600 hours, and as I previously said, the Klipsch Heritage Series falls into this category. Before break in, a speaker will sound tight and congested. Try to be patient, and play the system as much as possible, even when you're away from home.

tls49, I'm using a Dragonfly red connected to a Macbook on Ethernet with a Roon server. The mini phone connection is obviously a major weak point, but my HRT Streamer with RCA connections sounds even worse. (The Dragonfly is a great little DAC.) But you raise a good point. The sound is so boxy that it is possible that I am just doing something wrong. The phase is right. (I switched and it sounded much worse, so switched back.) Maybe there is some kind of power load problem, like the Rega Brio is confused by speakers that are that efficient? (It's usually somewhere between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock on the volume knob.)

Brooklynluke, what are you using for a source, turntable, CD, streaming to a dac?

stereo5, what speakers are you talking about?

Atmasphere, the couch is soft. So far closer to me seems better than close to the walls, but I am finding that listening for prolonged periods changes my sense of these things! The differences are subtle, but in all positions the sound is fatiguing.

Mofojo, I have Roon — which I love — so I tried my hand at EQ. I can remove some of the congestion with a notch, but the overall lack of cohesion remains.

Chayro and Jmontoya21, I know, I know! But selling these and buying new ones is a pretty big project, and I still have the question of the amp. Also, and I know this is lame, but these speakers look terrific. That is a big help in maintaining my fledgling audio hobby! Tektons just aren't in the cards alas. Maybe Harbeths!