Does upgrading you system have to be on a logarithmic curve?

I've definitely noticed the hype is exponential, but not the sound quality.

At that $30,000 level things are different not better. Also, excellent SQ has been achieved along time ago, now things are just way more sensitive. A lot of people that play only digital sources never even realize this.

Matt M

Have you ever been experienced?

The law of diminishing returns for sure, not sure about the curve being hyperbolic or logarithmic? 

The last 10% is the most expensive 😀

the last 1% is very expensive.

It is not logarithmic, but rather linear, if you concur with the old-time experience.

For all us old-timers here, we remember the simplified anecdotal guideline casually referred to as the “Rule of Fourths”.

This was an inverse relationship that had its genesis in hi-end audio.

Simply put, once you chose to further upgrade while you now play in the high-end gear sandbox, upgrading further with a performance improvement expectation, generally required a four-fold dollar expenditure to get a 25% step-up in audio performance.

My take:

Because upgrading while striving for system synergy is a difficult and variable journey, throwing just money alone at it may parrot this homily and provide merit, …but … it still may not necessarily satisfy another parallel time-honoured adage:

“Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”

- Warren Buffett

There is no great sound to be found for under $100k or so, speaking new suggested prices. So unless you can and want to do that just enjoy your system as it is. And I am talking one source system. However, if you must keep upgrading as most of us, including myself, double the cost, assuming that what you buy is not overpriced.

There is a small minority of audiophiles that have stated once past a certain point the sonic benefits of expenditures accelerates at an increasing rate of return.  I think that's ridiculous, but anybody can have an opinion.

I have grown my system from a $350 affair in 1972 to it’s current state of around $150K. I have methodically and incrementally invested over the entire time. I have spent thousands of hours learning, experimenting with cables, cords, and components. I have spent thousands of hours traveling all over the world with every portable musical device / combination you can imagine.

Large investments components has brought me larger and greater jumps in sound quality along the way. The very largest differences were the most recent and the largest investment.

If, let’s say you measure the frequency response or something… sure diminishing returns.

But it is about the music…. and the ears / brain can be an astonishingly sensitive instrument. “Great sound quality”… is about peeling back layer after layer of what that means… an enormous onion… layer after layer of nuance to bring pleasure to the listener.

Of course, it is a matter of values. I really value high quality sound… that is musical, nuanced, incredibly accurate… like brass sounds like brass… not trebly distortion like most of us though cymbals sounded like when we were young. So, for me the gains have increased with investment.

Audiophilia is all about the real love of musical reproduction. Most people think we are crazy… why walk down this diminishing return return curve. But those of us that fell in love with really great musical reproduction as youth see the reward as accelerating return. That has absolutely been my experience. I am absolutely ecstatic with my current systems (see my UserID).

i can't comment, can't find my slide rule 😂

My system  runs about $40K, so I can’t comment about benefits that might accrue if I went into the level that some here have.  I do know that at my level any change that I make tends to be a lateral move.  At first the new component sounds like an improvement, but eventually I realize that it is just doing something in a different way, and I start to miss what has been lost with the change.  I suspect that I would have to leap into a bracket that I just don’t want to ascend into.

  I suspect the logarithmic view applies more to digital.  My bias is that well built digital is so good that not much more can be obtained by pumping more money into the source.  Analog however might repay greater expenditures, as more resources translate into overcoming the limitations of analog.  Overbuilt massive  turntables are bettor at suppressing vibrations for example.

Most of my equipment I've bought at deep discount, either new or ex-demo.

I built my first real hi-end system during the 1998 crash then built another during the 2008 crash.

EUR,GBP and JPY are at very low discounts to the USD now and anything you buy in Europe and the UK will have an additional 20% VAT deducted for export. Most gear can be easily re-configured for different voltages.

Cables don't wear out and popular brand names provide excellent value, even though they are expensive.

Find a dealer who'll treat you well and appreciate your repeat business and upgrades, they've always got demo gear they want to sell.

Great sounding audio gear was built in past decades. That's what I buy and use! Present day stuff has little appeal.

shanesrain,

You might want to delete your post when you sober up.

keep crackin the whip @roxy54 !!

love it!! 

I experienced only incremental changes for around twenty years building a number of systems. At one point I assumed this was how things would be far into future. Then things suddenly changed with the addition of some rather peripheral equipment, its like I passed this THRESHOLD of mere audio reproduction to performers in room sound quality. This happened perhaps three years ago, additions since then have only increased sensation of living breathing performers in room.

So, only incremental improvements for vast majority of time, passing this threshold has been of inestimable value. It goes beyond a logical analysis into realm of the emotional. A deeper connection to the music and performers has great, great value.

Depending what you believe your time is worth, investing in stereo equipment can seem like very little gain for lots of money.  ghdprentice may have $150 grand in his current system but how much was the total expenditure over the last 50 years?  How many hours at the going rate were spent analyzing comparing  and even  growing as a listener?   If you add up all the equipment you went through and the time spent to get to your current system isn't that really the cost?

To me the real  difference in just throwing money at the stuff the hi end shop tells you to buy and really understanding the relationship of how the components work together comes down to appreciation.  50 years of experience is beyond value.  To bad that experience can't be bottled and passed on to the newbies with only 20 years of experience.

@jjss49 

I have my K&E bamboo in my desk drawer… would you like to borrow it? I haven’t been using it much since 1974.

@danager

Some good points. I wonder what the total cost was… a lot more over my lifetime.

The wonderful hours of music, and the hours of research have been truly enjoyable to me. My first career was as a scientist, so I love really complex ambiguous problems. I love solving multifaceted ambiguous problems… like, I have my system that sounds like this, and I want to get the maximum sound quality improvement (of a certain kind) spending the least amount of money: all the vendors exaggerate, most of measured parameters mean nothing as far as sound quality, reviews are slanted towards a different set of values than mine… my budget is limited… etc.

Over the last twenty years I feel I really got my arms around the pursuit and my values in sound quality. Component choices have become very easy to make and have performed in themselves and in my system exactly as I thought they would. In fact, I have been able to order a number of items without actually hearing them, and have them perform in my system exactly as I anticipated (for instance th Sonus Faber Olympica III I purchased unheard 10 years ago). This is nearly as rewarding as listening to my system… which, even after making no major changes for a couple years, surprises and delights me on a daily basis.

The above made me want to help others where possible achieve what they desire in audio. Especially when starting off, when one bad judgement, misstep, or attributing a change to the wrong thing can send one down a dead end or just sour one’s belief in high end audio. You hear them chime in on many of the threads on the forum. Those that don’t believe in interconnects, or better sounding components, or science doesn’t prove it, so it is just BS, or it’s all just marketing or psychology… the path is littered with the disenfranchised.

It is a very complex and ambiguous path to get to audio nirvana… but for those of us that have been successful, it has been a tremendous accomplishment and joyful pursuit.

I look at it as something that grows with you. My first car was a well used ‘67 VW bug. I learned how to drive a stick on it and about car maintenance. My first stereo was a pair of mismatched mono amps and some speakers I built. I learned about electronics and how sound works ( well sort of ). I went on to building my next amps. Now just last year I bought my first integrated amp. 
If someone ever asked me about about how much I spent along the way I usually lied, so as not hear all the BS. Heck, I still do to certain people.😆

shanesrain,

Just curious...what's your first language? Nothing that you have said in these posts makes any sense at all, and I'm thinking that it might have something to do with poor translation. If that's not it your problem might be much more serious.

@ghdprentice

@jjss49

I have my K&E bamboo in my desk drawer… would you like to borrow it? I haven’t been using it much since 1974.

haha only bad ass o-g science math and engineering majors know what the hell a k&e is!  ... though i admit when i got to college engineering the hp-35's had already hit scene

as everyone under 55 heads for the exits 😂🤣

@wmorrow I think you pose a very interesting question.  And with good questions considering the answer can be more valuable than the answer.

As I've upgraded my system I have questioned how much I've changed in terms of musical taste and appreciation of different aspects of music.

Over the last 10 years I've made three major upgrades to my system:

In 2014 I separated my audio system from my home theatre.  My dedicated system consisted of NAD C375BEE, Dual CS 5015 turntable, Parasound D/HX 600 Tape Deck and NAD Digtial Tuner with Sonus faber Venere 3.0.  Total investment (outside of the turntable and tape deck was about $7k.  My living room served as my listening area and this rekindled my passion for music and I regularly listened to music for hours.  I eventually added a Node 2i in 2018

I upgraded my system dramatically in 2020 after evaluating options with the intention of getting a much better digital experience.  I upgraded several pieced: McIntosh C2600/MC 302, Moon 280D and Sonus faber Sonetto Vs and because I was able to buy some demos my total cost with buying appropriate cables was about $16k.  The sound was significantly improved from my perspective - more detailed and increased dynamic range.  My listening sessions increased in frequency and duration.  I upgraded my dual to a Rega P8 in '21 since I have still have a few hundred LPs from my younger years.  I also was offered a great deal to trade in my Sonetto Vs for Olympica Nova Vs.

Recently I upgraded again - I wanted a bit more power (I'm a former Field Artillery guy and often listen at 80dbs).  I listened to McIntosh, Audio Research and others.  I decided to upgrade DAC/Streamer, Preamp and Amp to Moon 390 and M400s.  The equipment cost was $15k.  Now if I upgraded my MC302 to MC 462 or even MC 601s it would have been $10-18isk...not significantly different in cost.  However, I noticed the Moon amp was more detailed than the McIntosh system and was able to take advantage of a Moon trade in program.

Bottom line is I felt I received a significant upgrade in sound without a significant increase in price.  The characteristics of the music system changed and I enjoy it immensely.  Is my system significantly better?  I think it is and I wouldn't be surprised if someone who had similar Moon equipment and upgraded to McIntosh.

So I think I've upgraded going laterally.

roxy54

5,924 posts

08-15-2022 at 11:04am 

shanesrain,

You might want to delete your post when you sober up.

That advice could be given on a daily basis around here.

shanesrain,

Just curious...what's your first language? Nothing that you have said in these posts makes any sense at all, and I'm thinking that it might have something to do with poor translation. If that's not it your problem might be much more serious.

LOL, @roxy54 

His posts are the best word salad out there this side of our current VP.

Whats that?

@shanesrain ,

I understand now. You're similar to another member here who thinks that it's amusing to write incomprehensible nonsense posts. Very boring. I won't criticize or engage with you anymore.

Just what we need around here. Need I say no more......?

+1 @ozzy62 

This is rather amusing, quite a wordsmith.

It does not work this way at all. The single biggest sonic improvement anyone can make to ANY system cost $300. This 

@jjss49

K&E bamboo slide rule.

I started school before the pocket calculator… for me, the first I could afford was the Texas Instruments SR-50 calculator (I could not afford HP35 calculator). My physics labs took 12 hours of work… 11 of the hours futzing with the slide rule. When I got my SR-50… the time to complete a lab went down to one hour! Speaking of a time saver.

It was with great pleasure decades later I ended up working for Texas Instruments.

My expenditures were exponential because my ability to spend was exponential.  Of course I experienced diminishing returns but I could still hear the difference.

I only scaled back my purchases after I stopped hearing differences.

@shanesrain No harm, no foul. Stay away from anger and politics and you'll be fine.

roxy54

5,926 posts

08-16-2022 at 07:40am

@shanesrain ,

I understand now. You’re similar to another member here who thinks that it’s amusing to write incomprehensible nonsense posts. Very boring.

@roxy54

i lay even odds it is the same member using one of many previously registered bogus handles

gotta love guys who keep blabbering when no one is even talking to him anymore... i guess the liquor speaks for itself 😂