So many owners of vintage idler tables put, or leave on, vintage tonearms to achieve the proper look. But, if one uses a state of the art modern arm on these tables, they are remarkable performers--lively, engaging and fun. Many will, even when correctly reconditioned, have a bit more audible rumble than high end modern tables, but, that is a small price to pay for the positive attributes. A local dealer recommends 301, 401 and Thorens 124 for customers whose systems are well into six figures -- he clearly thinks the tables are worthy. One that I particularly liked has a 12" Wheaton Triplanar arm on it.
Check out my virtual system. Agreed!
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Does anyone have any direct experience with Massif Audio record weight? Exquisite wood work for sure, would love to hear your one on one experience.
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@jperry
Thank you for your recommendation. Interestingly, Helox was also suggested by Artisan Fidelity.
@noromance
I hear you, I guess it’s a fine balance. Just like any other tweak, sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.
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How does Analog Magik measure “distortion”? And what kind of distortion does it measure? Thx.
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@lalitk Best of success on your upward journey. While I've not tried either of the clamps you mention, I do have an inexpensive device. I've never been a fan of damping the record, and I find the clamp removes some of the life from the music.
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A very recent Post from a Gon Member is attached,
FYI - I use a Weight that is self made as a Composite material, that has a weight exceeding 1Kg.
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Here is some new information for all of us to chew on. I recently acquired Analog Magic software which is used for turntable set up. I am just learning how to use it and am probably dangerous. Just for the heck of it I wanted to see if adding weight affected distortion. I added weight at the center and at the perimeter on my VPI and the short answer is yes adding weight increases distortion (a wee bit). On my Technics I compared adding weight to using a KAB clamp and the answer is yes adding weight adds distortion, but the clamp did not. So there you go. If your record is warped, add the weight as the lesser of evils, but otherwise you are better off with naked records. Remember you heard it here first and you only get this sort of useless trivia here on the Audiogon Forum.
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Moving on, I would like to hear from some of the Garrard 301/401 owners on record weight / clamp they found to be complementary. Since I am going with Artisan Fidelity’s hybrid platter + Saphire bearing, their very own Aluminum Record Clamp will be part of my listening test. The other one I’m considering is Combak TU‑812MX. Ideally, the clamp or record weight must be less than 16oz or 450 grams.
I would like to have all the recommended clamps on hand once the upgraded platter and sapphire bearing are installed, so I can properly assess which one has the best synergy with the system. I plan to keep the one that suits my listening preferences most consistently.
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I never challenge being excitable, I am a worst case of allowing the condition to take hold.
It is probably that and some interesting proposals that has been instrumental in friends much more adept that myself, taking on some of the challenges I have planted as seeds.
I can't predict what is to come, I'm usually lost the sure footed ground and am all over the place with anticipation of what is the next experience and learning to be put in front of me.
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@larryi
I agree. There is a good reason why Garrard 301 / 401 and Thorens 124 still holds its place among vinyl enthusiasts. With the right restoration and modern touches, these vintage workhorses don’t just hold their own—they sing. I could have a very nice turntable for the money + love poured into tweaking my Garrard 301 BUT there is something about these idler tables beyond the vintage appearance. They have an innate energy and drive that many belt drives struggle to replicate, and when combined with precise modern tracking and isolation, the result can be breathtakingly musical.
I am absolutely enjoying the Garrard 301’s tactile, propulsive quality not to mention its uncanny ability to convey notes with sheer liveliness and soul.
PS: Thanks for sharing your recommendation on Wheaton Triplanar arm. I am still pondering on my choices for 2nd tonearm :-)
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So many owners of vintage idler tables put, or leave on, vintage tonearms to achieve the proper look. But, if one uses a state of the art modern arm on these tables, they are remarkable performers--lively, engaging and fun. Many will, even when correctly reconditioned, have a bit more audible rumble than high end modern tables, but, that is a small price to pay for the positive attributes. A local dealer recommends 301, 401 and Thorens 124 for customers whose systems are well into six figures -- he clearly thinks the tables are worthy. One that I particularly liked has a 12" Wheaton Triplanar arm on it.
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“Looking Beautiful and Fitting for the Job in Hand in only one piece of the equation”
@pindac
Haha—fair point! I may be admiring the shine on the thoroughbred before it is even left the paddock. But with this bloodline of components, I’m feeling cautiously optimistic it’ll be more Secretariat than show pony 🎶
Let’s see how she runs once the stylus hits the track!
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Synergy Expectation
No Different to counting the winnings when the Horses are still in the Pre Race Parade Paddock.
Looking Beautiful and Fitting for the Job in Hand in only one piece of the equation.
Whoa! Hold on to your horses
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Jim @jperry
I will post my impressions before or after plinth installation. August 2025 will mark two year anniversary since it all started. It’s been fun for sure, learning and understanding the path to classic Garrard 301 customization.
The trifecta, Audio Grail restored 301, mounted in a Woodsong plinth and upgraded with the Artisan Fidelity inverted bearing and hybrid platter. I am anxious to see how the synergy unfolds with the 301, Woodsong, and Artisan Fidelity upgrades before my next leap into my ultimate cartridge and maybe a phonostage. I believe @noromance pointed here or elsewhere that I need a better phono :-)
Once everything is dialed in, I should have a clearer picture of how a cartridge like the Etsuro Gold could complement (or potentially overwhelm) the system’s balance.
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@lalitk
I am excited for you hearing about the platter upgrade. Please post your comments on the platter upgrade. Also, excited to hear about the Windsong plinth. They make a beautiful plinth. Please post system pics when get it and the platter.
It's fun watching your build on the Garrard 301
Jim Perry
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Time for another exciting update: I just came across a rare opportunity to grab Artisan Fidelity’s Statement Saphire Inverted bearing and Aluminum/Mg. alloy platter. I am expecting delivery in 6-8 weeks and can’t wait to install and experience this incredibly impressive and exquisite piece of engineering. Here are the specifications:
Specifications:
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Aerospace Grade, aged, heat treated, stabilized & tempered Magnesium Aluminum based Alloy + Pure Copper + Multilayered polymer Internally damped high mass oversized platter design for improved flywheel affect and reduced noise floor.
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Hydrodynamic oil bearing Inverted type, Austenitic Stainless steel and polished Hardened steel, certified Grade 5 Sapphire ball, micro contact point and custom made, ground sintered bronze sleeve bushings with low viscosity oil impregnated cavity.
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Austenitic stainless steel thrust cap with advanced military grade Polymer featuring ultra low coefficient of friction and superior dimensional stability.
Also expecting Woodsong Plinth around the same time, which pretty much completes my 301 project.
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@lewm
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts. While I can see your point about not all vintage tubes live up to their reputation, I have a different take on trying vintage NOS tubes. Just like anything else in audio, NOS tubes can be easily a misfit in any given application. To @macg19 point, NOS mullard’s performed admirably better in his DAC versus phonostage.
Whether NOS tubes are worth chasing depends on your goals, system resolution and budget. If your system or a tube component responsive to tube rolling, then it’s totally worthwhile to chase the best possible NOS tubes that can further elevate your emotional connection with music. YOLO!
@noromance
I picked up another nice album off Amazon, Ben Webster - Plays Duke Ellington.
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@noromance
My room is a bonus room, it’s not acoustically perfect but the dimensions offer a lot to work with. The 15’ depth and 30’ width give me some flexibility for speaker placement and optimal listening spot. The 8’ ceiling is standard due to being on 3rd floor and part of a split attic, sloped ceiling angle in the back, which helps with diffusion and reduced parallel surface reflection (a bonus in disguise).
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@lalitk I was looking at your room and can't make out if it's a basement or an attic–like over the garage type of bonus room. 😏
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@aricaudio
Aric, thank you for reaching out. I appreciate your willingness to reconnect. I’ve made peace with the experience and don’t feel it’s worthwhile to revisit or invest further into it. I trust you’ll understand and I wish you continued success.
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Lalit, We had conducted business about 6 years ago and had been in touch via email many times since then. We have not conversed in over two years. To my knowledge there was not any unattended business or things left in the air. Your statement seems to imply otherwise. Please contact me directly via email since it appears there are matters to discuss. Best regards, Aric
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@noromance
I’d prefer not to go into all the details publicly, but let’s just say my personal experience left me with enough hesitation that I’ve decided to steer clear moving forward. I know others have had great experiences but for my part, I’m just choosing to not purchase his products.
Hope that makes sense and thanks again for understanding.
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Ha! I can't win for losing! Care to elaborate?
Based on my experience, I won’t be buying anything from Aric Audio (new or used).
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Based on my experience, I won’t be buying anything from Aric Audio (new or used).
duly noted!
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@noromance
Based on my experience, I won’t be buying anything from Aric Audio (new or used).
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@macg19 I haven’t heard either so I’m not recommending them per se, merely offering examples. However both have had solid reviews from trustworthy (known personally) posters over the years. I have heard the Gold Note and wasn’t impressed. Too dull. The Aric is customizable at the build stage. Better components are critical.
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PS. @noromance the Aric does look really interesting.
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@lalitk I forgot - the Mullard’s are marked 12AX7 not any of the variants suggested.
@lewm Brent Jesse has various Amperex/BB available, yes they are expensive but I trust him in terms of authenticity.
I disagree on the value proposition though - while I do agree the Sovtek 12AX7LPS is very good, the NOS Mullard’s and Tele’s are more pleasing to my ears.
@noromance I bought a used Model 4 on Lalit’s recommendation. I think it is ridiculously good for the money. I knew my Goldnote PH-10+PSU-10 ($3k new) was a bottleneck after buying a Clearaudio Innovation and an MSL Signature Platinum, but was holding off a next-level PS for a while. The Model 4 is way better than the GN. Maybe not end-game, but will definitely keep me happy for a while.
The Aric MC is 4.5 times the price of the model 4. Have you heard both?
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@noromance
Totally hear you and I appreciate the feedback. On surface, the Softone Model 4 may appear to be weakest link given rest of the components in the analog chain but Model 4 phono turned out to be pretty darn good and wonderfully engaging. Having said that, I am keeping my options open as far as trying more phono’s down the road.
And hey, you’re right—YOLO.
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I would not go out of my way or to great expense to mess around with Bugle Boys (even assuming you can find a legitimate pair of them, which I doubt) or Mullards, when you can buy either JJ or Sovtek LPS any day of the week at reasonable cost. BBs and Mullards are not any better, IMO. I've got some legit BBs that I bought in the 70s, and they are not better than the modern reissues or as good as TFKs, for 12AX7s. (In my experience, the U, T, and X version of the 12A_7 series must be evaluated separately on a brand per brand basis. For example, 12AU7 BBs are very good but 12AX7 BBs were nothing special.) Then too, some tubes were made in one factory then branded as if made in another. Tube-aholics know all such stories but not me. Best 12AT7 I evaluated were made in China sold by Billington in the UK. GE Gold Star were second best.
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@lalitk I really think you can do better on the phono stage. You are running pretty a much state-of-the-art (within reason) turntable suite and feeding it into a basic phono amp (Softone #4). This is really compromising the analog end of things.
I know you mentioned budget so this might be a better option.
Or an Aric Audio Super MC/MM Phono with some options. YOLO,
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I have not tried the bugle boy or tungsram but I might try and get a pair of the Bugle Boy’s or Some nice Brimar’s.
The Mullard’s I have are 1950s halo getter long plates. I put them back in my DAC after listening to the Sovtek LPS for a few days and they sure do sound nice. They were $450.00 per pair but are now sold old at Brent Jesse but has other variants available.
as you probably know he lists every tube available on his website which has good descriptions but I usually just email him and ask for advice which I may do shortly.
let us know what you end up getting
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@macg19
I placed my order of Model 4 phono, delivery estimate end of June. I am looking at some alternatives to Telefunken 12AX7 NOS to try it out. Do you or anyone else here tried Amperex Bugle Boy - ECC83 (Holland) or Tungsram (Hungry) in a phonostage?
The Mullard’s you’ve tried in Model 4, were they ECC83 / CV4004, long plate (1950s-60s) production?
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I’m finding the new Lond0nDecca somewhat disappointing. The prices are off the charts compared to what JW was doing. The Super Gold retailed at $1900 and now it’s a thousand bucks more. They no longer offer the Paratrace service option on non-Reference models. Decapods seem to be gone. $150 up front to look at cartridges in for service. I’d like to see more transparency on the service costs. The Reference was always a $5k cartridge, LD upped it to a fair $6500 8 months ago and now it’s $8500 and the Jubilee has almost doubled to nearly $6k. I guess I’m just old school and haven’t moved with these expensive times. On reflection, I should be grateful that someone has picked up the task of keeping these amazing cartridges going.
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@dogberry - LD reference is available now.
https://www.londondecca.com/ld-cartridges
and you can email sales@londondecca.com.
I purchased a SuperGold from Stewart about a year ago. Could not be happier. If the SG sounds this good, I cannot imagine what a reference sounds like. Also a good story about the Reference over at Decware. Steve Deckert was/is messing around with a Reference a few months ago and posted some great info/reviews about his experiences.
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Joe Williams was wonderful but not at all like Nat King Cole, who was also wonderful, IMO of course. To begin with, the two sang in different vocal ranges. Joe was a baritone and sang a lot of blues tunes, some of them quite obscure. His improvisations were unpredictable at times. Nat was a tenor. He was also an accomplished jazz pianist and accompanied himself on his earliest recordings, but his work was very mainstream for his time. He took fewer chances than Williams. Hartman was in my opinion the greatest for purity of tone, his work is more in between Nat and Joe, in his choice of material. I think I have all of Hartman's recordings. I wrote in another thread that my go to LP for comparing systems and evaluating upgrades is Hartman's "Easy Living". Human voice is, for me, a good constant.
Pablo recordings were typically of very high quality in terms of SQ. My only quibble is that they came along more or less after many of the great artists on that label had reached and passed their peak capability. Basie and Ellington when they no longer had a stable big band to lead. Ella when she had really lost that purity of tone for which she is revered. Sarah Vaughn was still in good voice when she recorded for Pablo; that is one exception. Joe Pass and Milt Jackson are two others. This is not to say that those Pablo LPs are not anyways quite enjoyable.
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@noromance
Thanks…Joe Williams shares some stylistic elements with Nat King Cole. Another personal favorite of mine is Johnny Hartman…there’s not a lot of recorded material, but what exists is pure gold.
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I’m a fan of the Pablo Basie records: The Gifted Ones, Basie & Dizzy Gillespie, The 3 Basie Jams, Basie & Zoot Sims. I’ve a bunch of his big band work but the later ones above are just wonderful.
Speaking of Joe Williams, his A Man Ain’t Supposed to Cry album is an outstanding vocal work. A must have.
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Those are Pablo recordings. Very high quality but small group recordings made during the twilight of Basie’s career as a big band leader. His big band stuff is on lesser labels, like Roulette. Try Count Basie and Joe Williams, on Verve.
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How about Count Basie…my personal favorites, 88 Basie Street and Farmer’s Market Barbecue.
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“Ben Meets Oscar Peterson, Ben Meets Gerry Mulligan, and Coleman Hawkins Encounters”
@mdalton
These albums are must own in any collection and they’re my favorites too. I would like to add another one to the list -
Art Tatum; Ben Webster
The Tatum Group Masterpieces
28 LP’s…wow!
I also love Ben’s work on Gentle Ben and Stardust albums.
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Ben Webster is a personal fave - I have 28 of his lps! Three go tos not mentioned yet include Ben Meets Oscar Peterson, Ben Meets Gerry Mulligan, and Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben (track 2, side 1 is beyond brilliant).
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“Tele ECC803S which is never under $700”
@noromance
They cost twice as much as my phono stage….yikes!!
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I guess I have written this many times, but for me the TFK ECC803S must be so rare by now that I would demand quite a bit of documentation before spending so much money. Even a TFK ECC83 is in the realm of caveat emptor. I bought my quartet of TFKs in the early 70s, and they have been in my possession ever since, so I feel confident that they are what they say they are. I don’t feel that I am knowledgeable enough to identify by physical characteristics, except for that diamond shape etched into the bottom of each TFK. Anyway, some modern 12AX7 reissues are good enough, in my opinion, that I would not worry about the brand too much. I have heard the Sovtek LPS and the JJ gold pin sound excellent. OTOH, I don’t think much of the Mullard, even assuming that the Mullards I own or have heard are the real deal.
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@lalitk Note that we were talking about the Tele ECC803S which is never under $700 (used). It's a premium ECC83.
Yeah, Side by Side is solid.
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@larryi
Noted.
@noromance
Side by Side (Acoustic Sounds Reissue)
I am really enjoying this classic duo album where Hodges steps out front with Ellington’s graceful support. Swinging, relaxed, and full of lyrical alto work.
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I am not in the hunt for any tube. I already have my preferred tube and I expect it to outlast me. My only significant concern is with securing enough output tubes in my amp to last to the end. I run four 349 output tubes. Those are very rare and expensive. The other extremely rare tube I run are 348s and I have spares and the really cheap 6F7 can be used as a substitute so I don't have to worry about that tube type. Slightly more findable are the 310a and 310b that I run.
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@larryi
@noromance
There are bargain out there if you’re patient. I got my last pair of Telefunken 12AX7 NOS ( Made in W Germany) for under $100. Setup alerts on HiFi Shark and take your pick.
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Limited, and not growing supply (Chinese fakes don’t count), and high demand did that to the price. I’ve had mine for many years and they are still going strong.
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@larryi As you know, you could buy ECC803S for £6.95 each back in the 80s. Now they’re over $1000 each NOS.
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