Hey thanks audphile1.
Things have changed slightly since my last post. I just picked up a
Musical Fidelity A3 24-Bit CD Player
for $150 in near perfect condition. I put this in the system last night along with a PS Audio upc 200 and there's quite a difference. Now, the mid-range seems a little heavy almost drowning out some of the highs, although the clarity of each instrument is much more detailed in a good way. I removed the Blue Jean cables and replaced them with some Tributaries Silver interconnects that came with the components and that solved the mid-range issue but the highs are a little bright. Included with my purchase was another pair of cables the Wireworld Equinox lll which I'm going to try later today. It appears I'm looking for something that falls in the middle of the Blue Jean cables and the Tributaries.
I moved the Blue Jean cables over to a really cheap Onkyo amp with the Toshiba CD player and those seem to be a perfect match running through a pair of JM Lab chorus speakers.
How much if any improvement is there in using XLR cables as opposed to RCA? Just curious.
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I would give Audience Ohno interconnects and Audience Forte F3 power cord a try. I’ve used these in my system and liked them a lot. The Ohno bested the BlueJeans ICs and the Forte F3 power cord was a significant improvement over stock power cord on the amp and DAC. See if CableCo has a special on these. |
Thanks mward. I'm shopping for the transport now as well as an old CEC CDP 3300 for a second system. I'm sure I'll end up with the Loki but I do believe the cable upgrade has made enough of an improvement to be worth the expense of even a minimal upgrade over stock cables. Thanks again.
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I’m a big fan of power cords so that’s a valid choice. Quickest bang for the buck is still the Loki for sure. Power cords are fun but it’s hard to find good ones for the price of a Loki. Ice Age is the only company I can think of whose best cables are in that range. Most other companies price their really good cables in higher price tiers. Do think about upgrading to a transport or streamer that can use an external DAC like others have said. That’s when the fun starts. |
I want to follow up after trying some new cables that were provided by a fellow poster.
I replaced a pair of stock interconnects with Blue Jean LC-1's and a stock power cable with a Cobalt Cable power cord.
After much swapping of cables, there was a noticable difference with almost all of my digital music. While subtle, there was definitely (to my ears) a less sharp edge to some tracks that I found a little painful with the stock cables.
The most noticable difference, however, was found by accident. I was turning up the volume on a disc (with the stock power cord) but had yet to hit play so I was only hearing (what I assume is the electrical signal/hiss/distortion whatever.) I decided to do the same thing with the new cord and there is definitely less noise at the same volume level. I don't know technically what I'm no longer hearing at the same degree but I have to assume that this translates in the music as well? I will be replacing all of my power cords and interconnects in the near future as I'm a believer that an improvement can be had without a fortune being spent. Thanks to all for your recommendations and sharing your personal experiences. |
@shimanole:
"While I do think the Sony is more of what I would describe as detailed, that detail turns out to be what I'm finding as bright, so maybe just more detailed in the upper realm. Not sure I'm even describing it correctly but the Toshiba was the clear winner for me. Thanks for all of the suggestions"
Good work ! |
Yes, often brightness is heard as detail until after some time listening it is heard for what it is. Listener fatigue sets in.
Though I believe the Loki is a good device and has a place in some systems, in your case I believe you should save your funds for a new CD player when the Toshiba no longer serves. Purchase one with digital output such that a DAC could be used as an upgrade should you desire. This a subject for another discussion down the road. |
You were right mesch. I listened to both the Toshiba and Sony S700 all day yesterday and the Toshiba sounded better to me over the course of the day. I was actually surprised that I could discern such a difference between the two. The Toshiba was fun to listen to with almost everything I played while there were a few cds that were difficult to get through using the Sony. The greatest example was Brian Ferry of Roxy Music and the song Love is a Drug. That CD sounded awesome in the Toshiba but intolerable in the Sony. Vocals were so shrill on the Sony I couldn't get through it. Don't know I would have noticed as much if I wasn't listening to them head to head. Should have done this years ago. While I do think the Sony is more of what I would describe as detailed, that detail turns out to be what I'm finding as bright, so maybe just more detailed in the upper realm. Not sure I'm even describing it correctly but the Toshiba was the clear winner for me. Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'm getting excited about little tweeks now that I know I can identify them.
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Audience Ohno cables are worth a listen and quite reasonably priced, especially when available used. |
Thanks mesch.
I'd love to try out some cables before I outlay the money for the Loki. Just let me know what you have in mind and I'll work something out with you. Sent you a pm and thanks again.
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Since they both sound better than what you have been using, I would continue to test the Toshiba against the Sony 700. After longer term listening you might actually find you like the Toshiba over the Sony.
I might also suggest you upgrade the stock interconnects between player and amp. Used lower level Audioquest cables in the 'snake' series such as the Sidewinder or Copperhead come up for sale on Ebay. I am thinking you can purchase a significantly better interconnect, over the stock ones that came with your equipment, buying used at $30 to $50. I am away from home right now, will return in a week. PM me, I may be able to put together a package deal for you regarding speaker, IC, and PC cables for cost of shipping.
Not knowing your older MIT speaker cables, not sure if the Canare ones will make the change you are looking for. I do own a pair of Canares, they are great at the price.
Given you have found a player better suited to your tastes, I would upgrade your stock cable collection at less cost than the purchase of the Loki. Then consider it thereafter. Not that I have anything against one, I am just not sure you will need it till other things are sorted out.
Just some of my thoughts.
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Thanks Paul. I do have an old Pace soldering station and might consider the idea of DIY. I was planning on tinkering with the old The Fisher 800 but starting with cabling might be fun. Thanks! |
OP if you can solder great, if you can't you might have fun if you learn how. Google " silver signal tape interconnects. You can build a interconnect for under $20. I ran across this article 20 years ago and this is what made me buy a soldering iron and learn to solder. These packing tape interconnects sound very good for what they are. I started out with using copper magnet wire for a $10 an interconnect pair, then bought some silver wire and cost went to maybe less than $20 per pair. I would guess they can sound as good as $200-$300 cables. From there I built much more exotic cables but it's a good place to start. The cables in my system are all store bought but are just stupid money but on a budget you can't beat diy interconnect and power cables.
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Maybe I should move this to the digital forum but wanted to follow up regarding the CD player. The player I was using is the Sony S530D. I ended up finding 2 others in the closet. A Toshiba XR-30 and a Sony DVP S700. I tried all 3 with the following CD's. Handel/Water Music - Bob Marley/Uprising - Some Wilco, Alabama Shakes Cream.
Both the Toshiba which is just a transport (without digital out) and the Sony S700 sound better then what I've been using. They both are actually very close but the Sony sounds a bit more detailed to me and with tighter base. I think the addition of the Schiit Loki and some Canare cables might make the difference I'm looking to achieve. I'll follow up once I start tweaking and will keep the felt and isolation spring ideas on the list of things to try. Thanks all!
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Thanks Paul. With all the recommendations to try Canare and the price point, I'll have to give them a shot. At this point my plan is to get the Schiit Loki+ and some Canare cables. If it still needs a tweet at the point I'll try the felt idea.
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Performance Audio is the cheapest on Canare 4s11 bi-wire speaker wire I've seen at $1.16 a foot with free shipping UPS with a $20 purchase, don't know how they can do that and make a profit.
If your speakers are a little bright put some felt double taped around your tweeters. Cymbal felt for cymbal stands from a drum shop work well cut into 4 pieces, may look funky but can break up aggressive beaming highs and it's cheap.
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You might consider these for interconnects: https://stagersound.com/silver/Amazingly good, transparent and uncolored.As for your Sony CD player: weak link,but if the transport is good, (and it has a digital output) a decent outboard DAC will make an enormous improvement. |
Less than $500 but $200-300 would be preferable. |
Less than $500 but $200-300 would be preferable. |
What is your budget for improvements?
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Mogami W3082 is better than W3104, more transparent, the 3104 is colored... |
Mogami W3104 for speaker cable.
Mogami Studio Gold for IC and coax . Also for XLR cables.
Have been using on different systems over the past 20 years.
Very satisfied.
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Yes Stuart. I actually have an old Toshiba XR-30 (something like that) and a sony DVD/CD etc. with built in DAC that I can try also. I'm just going to have to remove an entire closet worth of the wife's crap to get to it. Might break out my first receiver while I'm in there The Fisher 800. : )
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@shimanole
I don't know how "old" your "old" Sony CDP is, but the one I had way- back-when was terribly bright.
Can you borrow a different CDP and see what effect that might have?
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Jnorris. Thanks very much for your post. I think I will seek an equalizer of sorts as I agree my system is somewhat low end and maybe my expectations should be tempered like the treble. If I find a cheap upgrade for a power cord, speaker cable and interconnects I may pull the trigger with fingers crossed.
I spoke to tech folks at The Cable Co., Audioquest and Silnote and I must say, there is a lot of disagreement regarding sound as it relates to oxidation, stranded wire, solid wire, coated wire etc. I think deep pockets make these experiments much more enjoyable whereas for me, it's an investment in music that requires a return, otherwise, I'm just throwing money away that I could use for food lol.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post recommendations. I will certainly look at those cables if I pick up some replacements.
Cheers!
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Replacing the cables that are still the nasty OEM ones will give you the biggest benefit.
I would suggest you buy a single powercord, that you should put on your
Musical Fidelity v-150. The audience house sound is probably what your looking for - they have a special on their Forte F3 cables which is a very good entry level cable and a significant upgrade over stock. Another cable I would recommend that is not all that expensive (< $150) is a Wireworld Aurora. Both well should give you a very audible improvement.
Buy what you're comfortable affording and preferable buy one (1) better quality cord than two or three lesser/cheaper models. |
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It is a nice system, but not at the level of resolution required to perceive any difference whatsoever attributable to cables. These guys are leading you down a primrose path that will only lead to disappointment. You would be far, FAR better off with a little Schiit Loki equalizer to tailor the sound. |
shimanole
Nice system. Consider Transparent Audio (TA) cabling. This brand is a sonic match for your gear. I used to own B&W/Rotel and Sony components with TA Super MM2 series interconnects / speaker cables.
Happy Listening! |
Espace musical Muse 1 rca (andré the sorcerer)
Western electric hp (1950)
O2A Quintessence (sector cable)
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Similar to others I’ve never been a huge believer in exotic cables but… TLDR: The takeaway - There maybe marginal returns or heavy preferences for certain effects cables drive but it’s going to be difficult to improve on generally well made cables. Maybe check something like AudioQuest entry ranges for transparent quality ICs but how much ground you’ll cover past this will probably be diminishing returns and exponentially priced. If it’s something other than single conductor coax for a single ended (rca) IC be wary. On the cost effective side specifically for a heavy/bassy sound you might try FosPower https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016QVZF06/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_0D3DHK28CX6EVRXAFW76?psc=1The fuller story: On a DIY kick, I recently attempted to make some ICs myself to the tune of >$100. I think the the best way to summarize this experiment is that while it may be exceedingly hard to improve a decent cable it’s surprisingly easy to make a bad one. Possibly more relevant to your to your ask is the result of the experiment (with handmade silver-coated ofc, shielded 2 conductor, ptfe wrapped w/profi connectors, and Cardas solder ICs). All cables tested for only desired continuity. When shielding for the entire cable set was commonly grounded to the phono stage the system was amazing noise free. However I experienced what I’ll call odd phasing issues adding up to loss of substance. Sound didn’t seem to carry from the speakers the way I was used to. I wish I could explain better but I could turn up the subwoofer and get overpowering bass but regardless of xover, phase, or tone control the sound didn’t feel full, lacked resonance (but exhibited distinct clarity in reverb). Sound did carry extreme HF detail like I’d never heard from the table. I believe this was due to conservative soldering. I stopped feeding the solder as soon as I had a solid attachment and did not build a full bead (fill the cup) to allow for a substantial path. After this initial experiment I made second set of cables: Belden silver coated 16awg single conductor coax, profi connectors, signal cup filled as much as possible without melting insulation away. These don’t seem to have the same issues or issues or specific “heaviness” but also don’t deliver the HF detail of the initial set… Further reading: http://www.referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/articles/design-of-interconnects/ |
I had a set full of blue jeans a while back which were great for years, then I had the opportunity to demo a set of considerably stupid money by comparison from Hapa Audio. Holy crap what a difference. Like absolutely 2 different tracks entirely. We’re talking the difference of Bluetooth speaker on a subway vs full orchestra 2nd row. That being said, those cables were by comparison stupid money at over $400 but the immediate difference they made on my budget setup was more than the sound quality increase from 400 spent anywhere else in the system, and it will scale with each improvement along the way. Like Millercarbon said, plan your upgrades wisely and budget accordingly. But the ideal that you must equally split amongst all cords is a load of bull. Find the easiest tweak/weakest link and start there but plan for what your system will be 5 years from now, not just next month. Just my personal experience $0.02. Have fun!
-Lloyd |
I doubt if cables will bring you much relief if your system is too bright. Canare, to my ears, is pretty neutral.
I would spend the money on upgrading your source. And try before you buy.
My $0.02. |
By far the easiest/cheapest/fastest way to learn is take whatever crap you have now, stuff it in your pocket, and drive on down to any stereo store. Where you say to the guy, "The guys on line are saying I can do better than this. I can only afford $X. What do you think?"
Then listen to what they have for $X, followed by your patch cord. Then listen to something 2X, or better. Repeat with power cords. Repeat this whole thing at another store. 20-30 min per store, couple hours altogether, you will learn as much as a month of shipping stuff back and forth, and with no credit card/shipping hassles.
This was the first thing I did back in the day and it opened my eyes big time, and fast. You do not need home audition. You do not need a special system. You most definitely do not need "reference" tracks or anything like that. If the differences are so slight and hard to hear you need any of that then forget it, no way it is worth the price anyway. So don't bother. Pulling those stunts they will only peg you as not knowing what you’re doing anyway. Just be real and open to learning and chances are they will help you learn. Worked like a charm for me. |
If your on a tight budget and your system is a little bright the Canare bi-wire could work well. 10 foot speaker wire would run $20, make some interconnects out of there microphone wire and switchcraft rca's for $2 a piece from B and H photo for dirt cheap. Make power cables out of there speaker wire just use 4 conductors or 1 or 2 cables for each run and higher gauge for the ground and some cheap watt gate ends. There is a 8 meter pair of Grover Huffman FX plus balanced interconnects on Audio Circle for $100 buy it and cut it up you could make a power cord and a few interconnects.
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It would be best if you purchased from dealers with a return policy or trial period.
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Curious to know how you plan to measure the difference. |
ALSO u can get some good ZU Audio cables on ebay depending on how you do in the auction. I love all the cables too! |
I have some Canare's and blue jean cables. got to blue jean cables website. Real good and great price. |
"Not true."
What a piece of work!!!
We are not for show here, genius.
It's about sound.
Enjoy the music. |
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The Audience AU24's are way out of my price range so I'm looking at the rest. I also found a used pair of Audioquest Rubies for $80 online and might give those a shot. Thanks again.
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Thanks everyone. Will try the least expensive first and see how is goes. I'll follow up with any noteworthy feedback.
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I never tried Canare, but I do have a pair of 10 gauge Belden from Blue Jeans. In some situations they work absolutely fine, even in comparison to some much more expensive cables. But they have sounded absolutely terrible with some other component combinations I’ve tried and the "better" cables sounded much much better. So I do think it’s a good idea to start with Belden or Canare and see if they meet your expectations. It’s important to have a baseline for comparison so you will know whether it’s worth buying something more expensive. But they are not the end of the cable rainbow. I wish they were. |
I also found the Canare wire cables to be decent affordable quality and a bit warmer sounding than some. |
Not sure of what you consider "budget friendly", but if you are looking to enter the cable arena, I would check out The Cable Company website and see if they still have any of the Audience AU24 cables at 50% off. They are older versions of the AU24 that come direct from Audience and are listed as "show samples". The cables are light and easy to use, but IMO have very good body and bass weight and are not bright at all. Plus, Audience is a great company for service. Also, at half price, you would probably take very little if any loss if you decided to sell. Audience also makes a less expensive line called Conductor, but I've never heard them. I don't think they're very popular for whatever reason. |
Not true. Not at all. At the same time however considering the budget level of your system you will get more improvement for your money with a couple sets of Nobsound springs. Three sets for $90 will do your speakers, turntable, and CDP. This will be a lot bigger improvement than any $90 you can spend on wire.
You do however still want to do those wires. The smart way is to plan ahead. If you will just be doing this and then nothing - no component upgrades at all- for a long time that is one thing. In that case take what you can spend and divide it pretty much equally. So if say $500 and speaker cable, 2 power cords, 2 interconnects, then your budget is $100 each.
Or maybe you have bigger long term plans. Might be well worth it to put $500 into one really good set of speaker cables, knowing you will upgrade one thing after another so that a year or so from now the whole system is way better.
Either one is perfectly fine so long as you know and have a plan. Otherwise you listen to random knee-jerk ideas, real easy to find yourself having spent a lot with not all that much to show for it. |
I wouldn’t get too carried away with interconnects an definitely not with power cords I would try amp first). If your system is a bit sterile… go with copper… if it about right silver coated copper… we’ll leave silver to really high end or very warm equipment.
I think DH Labs and WireWorld would be good places to start. These are well regarded (DH Labs for cost effective) highly reviewed and respected brands. At this stage I wouldn’t spend more than about 10% the value of the component you are putting them on… maybe 15% if you find something you like. The difference these things make gets bigger and bigger the better your equipment. Pretty quickly you can get to the point where the money spent would be better spent on a component upgrades. |
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Thanks twice. I'll check both of them out. |
