Horn speakers are really bright?

That is very true atmasphere. I have less trouble with reflections since using horns.

HOONK!

The trick with horns is to take advantage of their controlled directivity- you can use that to minimize side wall reflections, thus allowing them to be smoother than a lot of non-horn systems.

There were two instances where horns sounded good. Vintage 1980s Klipschhorn and Acapella Cellini! 

I have over 30 pairs of speakers, I can change them all the time....Went I get boarded or want a change. There here...lol

I have modified khorns I bought an upgrade package from volti audio. 

This included all new drivers and new mid-range horns. I also had a new set of crossovers made this greatly improved the sound quality of the khorns.

I feel they sound best with a tube amp and a turntable. With live records the soundstage is amazing!

I have tried other amps and the sound is different with each one try out some different amplifier's till you get what you are looking for.

Happy hunting!!

 

@herman, impressive horn system. What is your crossover point to from big bass horn to the next?  It's a passive XO I take it from seeing just one amp.

I should put that this in the description, The mid horn rolls off naturally about 200-2Khz. Above that the tweeter has the stock avantgarde first order filter and below 200 the bass horn has a first order filter, as single inductor in series.

I have tried triamping with various electronic and digital crossovers but this is much more cohesive, simpler, and of course less expensive

 

@herman, impressive horn system. What is your crossover point to from big bass horn to the next?  It's a passive XO I take it from seeing just one amp.

@rozy54 initially I bought Ciare https://usspeaker.com/ciare-hw321-1.htm

For my KLF 30 and and I was wondering how it sound on my CF4 since both use the same 12 inches drivers but CF4 use neodymium drivers

i try it and sounds good to me so I leave it on there 😂😂😂😂

So I don’t have any technical details to back it up only my ears

my CF4 crossover was removed and ship to Bob Crites to Rebuild with high quality capacitors

Still have my original drivers though

@herman 

Nice system!

 

 

How do you know lordrootman that the change of drivers didn't require changes in the crossover, and if so, were you equipped to make those crossover changes?

I did little mods to both set 

I rebuild CF4 crossover with high quality one and replace drivers with Ciare HW321

 

on KLF 30 I did a lot 

I replace midrange drivers 

I replace the crossover with Bob Crites model

i replace diaphragm with titanium diaphragm 

I replace jumpers and binding Post 

I replace all 12" drivers with Ciare HW321

Herman,

Isn't the sound affected by the large objects sitting in the bass horns?

 

well, I suppose it has to have some effect, and I haven't done a lot of experimenting , but it sounds excellent as is so no desire to so... until now since you brought it up🙁

For now assume that is doesn't and I'l report back later if it does. 

 

 

Herman,

Isn't the sound affected by the large objects sitting in the bass horns?

Some people may have bright rooms.

 

horns can be bright, any type of speaker can be bright if not properly impemented. The example of Khorns with a Crown DC300A is a perfect example of how NOT to implement them. 

The idea that horns are always bright as some have opined is ridiculous. Check out my system.. nothing bright about it

https://systems.audiogon.com/users/herman

 

 I have JBL 1400 Array's with a horn loaded compression midrange and super tweeter. They certainly are not "bright", the sound overal is mellow.

 It depends how well a speaker type is implemented, some horn type compression drivers are definitey horribly screechy.

I wonder how much of your experience is the speaker position next to all that equipment tv screen and so on. The normal horn dispersion is getting reflected by the walls and equipment including the tv most probably.

I have a different category of horns, hand turned American maple and a super tweeter set up powered by Luxman M900u, etc. my experience is based on at least a four foot clearance around the horns. A better layout here could improve your experience I’m thinking if you can drop to two shelves or reconsider the locations and set ups. Watching Acoustic Fields Dennis Foley offers loads of information.

That said my horns have never been bright or harsh. Only using an Esoteric K03Xs did I find it too harsh not even on horns and sold that unit. No regrets.

You’ve got two great sets of equipment that might even give you greater pleasure and experience if you can experiment a little. Others comments on certain equipment and synergy factor here too. Room acoustics and speaker positions are a strong part of that mix.

I just got a pair of klipsch kg4s this week and they don't sound harsh or "shouty" to me. On the contrary they (to my ears) sweeten rock music of the 60s and 70s. I've been listning to them for hours all week with enjoyment. Do they reproduce sound to RIAA standards? Not even close. But if you want to crank some alice cooper they are really fun. The horns add a clarity to vocals and guitars that just can't be beat for $250.

Horn speakers especially high frequency horns can sound sharp or brightr or screechy or whatever but properly done will do trhings that the ubiquitous dome tweeter simply can't. Mounted on a waveguide and using severe toe-in provides a very wide sweet spot, about as wide as the speakers are apart. Also the wavegude when positined as mentioned prevents or limits the damage strong early reflections cause. Hard to go back to domes after hearing a good horn/waveguide setup.

 

Pink Floyd never played through dome tweeters!  😈

The true pleasurable lovable sound from what ever speaker design the individual chooses from I hope you choose what sounds near perfect to you. Not others. I personally have four  different sets of horn speakers and two regular design speakers. Tweeters -( paper or dome ). I simply love the sound of each of my individual speakers. One design is not written in stone for me. I understand some style of music ( classic rock funk blues jazz and r&b ) will sound better on different  style of design  speakers and I am very much so appreciative of that. So I am willing  to compromise to get the absolutely best sound to my ears. 

I think an all horn system set up right is impossible to beat. In cases like the Cornwall 1,2 and 3 the tweeter IS harsh and needs to be replaced with something like the LMAHLs or SMAHLs. Same for KLF series. There is also another possibility with those specific speakers which is crossovers that old have capacitors out of spec. Recapping can end a lot of sour sounds. None of the Klipsch speakers mentioned by the OP are purely horn loaded speakers so to say horn driven speakers like these infers they are an this is not correct.

I do have a pure horn loaded system. Klipsch K-402's with the latest K-1132 driver and new phase plug and a derivation of the MCM 1900 MWM bass bin except mine has a 108" throat and it goes effortlessly down to 27hz. Bi amped with Xilica for DSP and I have a stream of people who find excuses to visit me and listen. Stunning accurate realism at low or high volumes and if you want to play for sound effects fireworks can be felt across the room at higher volumes. The problem with good bass horns is the required size to get good clean low end hz and most people do not want that big ugly WAF zero in their house.

 Good all horn systems are relatively rare because they are harder to do than regular speakers. I think most audio types have never heard a good set and base their all horns suck on so so or worse sets. DIY forum has a ton of information on all horn systems and many blueprints and knock down kits to give you what you want but you have to get your hands dirty in many cases.

@roxy54 
The guy is not interested online transaction and all PayPal things 
so search continues 

@roxy54 
yes mine is definitely V2 
I want V1 though but is really hard to find 
I will definitely sell my KLF 30 if I got V1 lol 

I think $2000.00 is fair for V1s in great condition like that. Mine are version 1 and they are getting very hard to find. I thought that yours might be version 2 lordrootamn because the dust caps on the woofers looked shinier than mine.

@larryi 
lol 😂 
I don't care if a system is unable to achieve rock concert listening levels; if my system ever sounded as bad a rock concert, it would be gone the next day.

my listen levels never pass 80dB 10 feet away 
especially with two years twins and 6 years boy all over me at any moment 😂😂😂

to me I think the strength of a horn speakers is able to sounds great @  low volume 
I use tone control in the night for low volume listen 

With my two horn set up I have try to switch one to different speakers but I haven’t got any full tower speakers with great dynamics  under 6k that I like

one of the speakers I may interested in future is legacy aeris but I can’t afford it 😂😂😂 

Well listening to Tri of Triplanars field coil horn system certainly enlightened me to the strengths of horns as have a few other systems I have heard throughout the years. Exposure to these better horn speakers had given me a appreciation of this type.  Low level detail is one of the greatest strengths of horns.

I do feel however that many horn users underpower their speakers and this has nothing to do with volume just some of the intrinsic problems present with SET amps. If I were to go horn I would use OTLs, which are the amps I use on my dynamic speakers currently. 

I have yet to hear a dynamic woofer integrate well with horns. I have only heard horn loaded woofers a few times and this was really special, but this didnt change what I dont like about horns just made the system more cohesive. 

then you get to something like Celine Dions voice and you have to leave the room because it's very sharp.

Not sure I'd want to be at that party...........

The strength of a top notch horn system is the ability to sound great at very low volume levels--they still manage to sound lively, detailed and engaging even when played softly.  Some systems do tend toward "shouting" at extremely high volume levels, but, I hardly care about that because I don't like to listen at that kind of level.  Moreover, the very best amps, to me, are all low in power and can deliver great sound without having to "raise the roof."  I don't care if a system is unable to achieve rock concert listening levels; if my system ever sounded as bad a rock concert, it would be gone the next day.

What island are you living on?

While I cannot comment on commercial / lower grade horns, as I have not heard any, my reference is the four horn systems that my friends and I have here on the island. They are in systems that were fine tuned for decades, by the most hard-core audiophiles who have tried everything in their life (cost no object), and settled with horns. Two are Altec A5-based (with crossovers modified to Valhalla and beyond), one is a big Edgar horn (with the Edgarhorn sub!), and one is my own design from ground up (Altec 515/288 drivers).
A common feature in these systems is there is not a hint of "horn coloration" in any of these sounds. If you were blind folded, you would not be able to tell from the tonality that you are listening to horns (zero honk / shout), although you could immediately tell by the shocking naturalness, lack of audiofile "plastic processed sound", lightning speed, full size, dense substance, and lack of even a hint of compression or listening fatigue at any level that these are unlike any speakers you heard. You can play these at +20dB SPL compared to other speaker technologies and have less listening fatigue than with others at that much lower SPLs.

They all give an experience that totally messes with you, and makes you feel that these are technologies from another planet compared to mainstream stereo gear.

Horn speakers are a life-long quest. Do not even think to have them if there are problems in your chain elsewhere, as they will show without mercy when the emperor is naked. And most audio gear is definitively unflattering when there's nowhere to hide.

If you are curious about horns, try to find someone in your area who has done it to perfection, and listen to it. You may not be lucky to have anyone near you though.... or you might have several. YMMV...

Horn speakers they depict as sounding dynamic and live .
i went out of my way to hear fleetwood deville speakers at a audio get together 
they sound nice dynamic and very live as in real ,But they are more first few rows perspective ,in my opinion over time in your face even though not bright 
can be tiresome ,unless you have tubes to mellow it out .i have very good solid state that is smooth , such a shame too for they look very nice.
They should offer Xover parts options such as Duelund ,Jupiters Vh audio Milflex With top Mundorf Copper foil resistors, or Path audio.
peach having their own perspectives ,and from my vast experience with Xovers 
pit would Bree more natural and take on a much more friendly 7-8 th row perspective.. this is the problem with companies that think they know it all when in fact they know so little about Xover parts sonics. I am basing this on over 20 years on most every thing out there , being a long time Klipsch guy who has rebuilt many and figured out how to control their sonics to several Sonic perspectives.

So much depends on how loud you drive them.  Some people's "loud" is NOT loud to me. My loud is VERY loud and that's where the horns get shouty and ear piercing.  At the same volume, non-horn speakers like my Tektons are much more pleasant to rock to.  I've thrown many a party with the Cornwall and CF3... They certainly deliver but then you get to something like Celine Dions voice and you have to leave the room because it's very sharp.

My friend who a DIY speakers builder come to conclusion that compression drivers with metal diaphragms are so transparent and detailed and it shows imperfection of electronics.

One example from my experience, when I just bought 300B amplifier I used it with Spendor 2/3 and Altec 604E speakers. With Spendors sound was good but with Altec was some harshness. In the end the reason was bad (harsh sounding) cheap 6f6 drivers tube. When I replaced them to better 6f6 harshness on Altecs was gone. But on other hand, Spendors didn't sound harsh even with the bad 6f6!

Hello lordrootman.  Many horn drivers used  for mid-range and tweeters are very efficient: 95 db+. Most woofers are not nearly that sensitive. If someone tries to pair a sensitive horn tweeter with an average woofer, an unsatisfactory result is likely.  Always try to match the sensitivities of the drivers in a multi-speaker package. That way, you will not have to use resistors in the crossover to reduce tweeter sensitivities. Resistors waste power and prevent the amplifier from accurately compensating for speaker errors (reduces the damping factor). A mismatch in driver efficiencies generally results in a harsh of screechy sound. It's not the drivers fault! Horn tweeters using non-peizo compresson drivers generally have large magnets and can provide excellent performance at reasonable cost. Use plastic horns (vs. metal) to avoid ringing. You can coat the outer (rear) surface of the horns with auto undercoating to make them acoustically inert. The early AMT tweeters (still being sold) have large metal surfaces (part of the magnet structure) exposed to the sound coming from the diaphragm. I glue tea towel or sock material (cotton) to those surfaces to knock out the resonances caused by the reflection off those surfaces. Huge improvement! Use silicon rubber and you can always remove it easily if you experiments don't work out well. Experiment, Enjoy the music!

Depends on your cables and electronics(should be tubes) with the right match can sound wonderful.

I wish I could have had 1 of those CF4’s back when I used a KLFC7 for my center channel, would have been killer. 

Thanks biggreg little pricey I was hoping for 1500 but yes CF4 V1 worth it mine is V2 

And they don't "shout" either.

Altec 604 8G's often are criticized for having a rolled off top end.
 I like the way mine sound.

@lordrootman Here you go:  https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/d/seattle-klipsch-epic-cf-cherry/7404842625.html

@big_greg pls can you share the links for the CF4 for sale thanks 

I've owned many Klipsch speakers including the KLF-30 and CF-3 (ver. 3).  I currently have a pair of Quartets in my bedroom system.  They are built to a price point, and in that range, they offer a lot of bang for the buck. 

With jazz vocals or acoustic guitar music at moderate volumes, the Quartets are sublime. 

Everyone wants to crank them up.  That's when their weaknesses become apparent, not just the brightness, but somewhat loose bass, and in the case of some models like the KLF-30 you'll hear the cabinets.  With some modifications, the KLF-30s became really nice speakers and easy to listen to.  Mods I did to mine included Crites tweeters, mids, and crossovers, dynamat on the horns, and re-gluing the back panel of the cabinets  The CF-3s are one of the few things that I kind of regret selling.  Of course it's been a long time ago and a lot of speakers later, so I may be romanticizing their sound a bit, but I really enjoyed those. 

Someone has a pair of CF-4s for sale here locally and I've been having to talk myself out of buying them.  

Here's what I've come to learn about Klipsches, DON'T PLAY LOUD ROCK MUSIC THROUGH THEM. That's where they get brashy, honky, and headachy. Those horns are nice with certain genres at reasonable volumes, but crank them up with many types or rock/country and you're asking for an ear piercing.

 As PWK himself would say "Bulls&*t"

A well placed horn in a well thought out room with a good front end will play ALL music with aplomb.

I’m consistently mystified by uploaded YouTube videos with the idea of judging system or music quality. 
However, I do like this discussion. 

I've long suggested this be a "sticky" here on Audiogon:

Sounds Like? An Audio Glossary | Stereophile.com

"bright, brilliant  The most often misused used terms in audio, these describe the degree to which reproduced sound has a hard, crisp edge to it. Brightness relates to energy content in the 4kHz-8kHz band. It is not related to output in the extreme-high-frequency range. All live sound has brightness; it is only a problem when it is excessive."

Here's what I've come to learn about Klipsches, DON'T PLAY LOUD ROCK MUSIC THROUGH THEM. That's where they get brashy, honky, and headachy.  Those horns are nice with certain genres at reasonable volumes, but crank them up with many types or rock/country and you're asking for an ear piercing. 

I was cranking the crap out of the Moana soundtrack (don't laugh take a listen) with the Klipschorns and Tektons next to each other and the Khorns made me want to wear earmuffs while the Tektons were smoother and more listenable at very high volumes and offered more chest pounding slam too.

I have found most Klipsch speakers lacking in very high frequency information. But I often find them fatiguing at upper midrange and lower high frequencies. A great deal has to do with pairing them with more forgiving (tube) equipment. I also object to the notion that horns are more sensitive to what they are fed than other speaker types. Granted higher efficiency can often highlight noise, but I think this is a different thing altogether. Best horns I have every heard were intoxicating in a few areas. I have only heard heavily modded Klipsch that sounded decent to me. Havent heard the new models however.

I want every one to listen to this songs and judge the system 

EPIC CF4 GARAGE 
https://youtu.be/9k6uIj8sZgk

KLF30 living room 
https://youtu.be/D9vZRbm9zJA

Another KLF 
https://youtu.be/YodIfQayaZs

Both systems are unnaturally bright. She has way too much breath in her voice and her "s" is way too sharp. This is an audio effect that many people mistake as detail and find attractive at least until it hurts. They also used too much reverb in the mastering. This is not necessarily a result of horns as I have heard them sound quite natural. Your systems are not well set up. Speakers that size should be much further apart and toed out a bit may not be as bright and in your face. It is not your electronics doing this. It is the set-up, the speakers and the rooms. You need to go to a small jazz club or somewhere you can hear an acoustic folk singer. Go to a Richard Thompson solo concert. Don't listen to me. I'm just another idiot with bad hearing.