I was in the room next to Volti for several years at RMAF, where Greg was showing the Vittoras. Magnificent speakers. Being a competitor I really wanted to hear "something wrong": with them, and utterly failed. Kudos to Greg Roberts for his speaker designs, and for making his expertise available to people with Klipschorns and Klipsch Belles. Duke |
@audiokinesis --
My aim with your earlier quoted statement wasn’t specific, but obviously that can be problematic in itself - sorry for not being more clear. I appreciate your info on the OSWG’s - I remember reading Mr. Geddes "White Paper" (i.e.: thesis or whatever) on this matter, and it was an interesting read. It seems to truly benefit from this design and minimize internal reflections within the horn as proposed a foam plug of some specific type is needed, but he may have patented this solution. I guess my main gripe comes with questioning the usefulness, in some instances at least, of knowing about minutiae design "tech details" and how these are convertible into or relate to actual perceived sound. The designer/developer him- or herself should have a closer bearing perhaps, but oftentimes I feel such knowledge presented to the end user, illuminating it may be as a field and entity in itself, has a tendency to produce disciples almost or followers of a brand/principle rather than critical, informed individuals that would seek not to equate too easily. Perhaps I come off setting the bar too low here; I don’t mean to imply the worst of people, but pragmatically speaking I believe this is what marketing does in many cases. That wasn’t what I got away with reading your posts above. As an endeavor I also have very high respect for Mr. Weiss’ OMA speakers, and look forward to hearing them at some appropriate point in the future. They’re a revival or testament of sorts to speakers as they really should be: large (as physics dictate), highly sensitive (to be used in conjunction with the topologically most simply tube amps), and made with natural, high quality materials where design follows function (and not the other way round); speakers that takes place in one’s home environment as uninhibited and beautifully imposing sound (re)producers. As much though as OMA is a celebration almost of old-school horn/-hybrid speakers, that overall vibe is tempered somehow by the insistence on the use and prowess of the conical horn profile as the best of the bunch, and at the same time shooting into the corner the rest as sub-standard material that can’t rise to the level of something (equally?) good. It’s arrogant, I find, and unfortunate/uninformed really. Like saying: horn speakers are great, as long as they’re mine. That may not be what Mr. Weiss truly feels about the matter, but it comes off that way. I guess that was my specific aim.. |
I guess my main gripe comes with questioning the usefulness, in some instances at least, of knowing about minutiae design "tech details" and how these are convertible into or relate to actual perceived sound. The designer/developer him- or herself should have a closer bearing perhaps, but oftentimes I feel such knowledge presented to the end user, illuminating it may be as a field and entity in itself, has a tendency to produce disciples almost or followers of a brand/principle rather than@phusis Very well put. There’s a chasm between theory and measurements vs. perception and desirability. Some companies, like JBL, Bose and Harman, make perception and desirability a hallmark of their research in addition to the speaker physics they are so well known for. I also agree, a lot of this is a lot of fun to talk about, but perception may be a whole other story. The late Linkwitz was one of many experienced engineers and audiophiles who also promoted this view. My recommendation for every audiophile: Build at least 1 pair of loudspeakers in your hobby career. You’ll be a much better informed consumer than everyone who has not. Best, E |
To give an example of this, there's time coincident speakers like old Thiel and current Vandersteen. Despite the technical claims made for them, the overall design has not overwhelmed the speaker industry. Lots of fun to talk about, and an interesting engineering challenge, but the final result has mixed reviews. This one concept does not seem to have convinced the market. Best, E |
^ I suspect the reason the design philosophy has not caught on with many other manufacturers is that they’re not up to the challenge. It’s a lot easier to ignore the time element than to execute it correctly. Intetestingly, both companies have been amongst the most successful high end US manufacturers. |
@phusis wrote (in a reply to me): "my main gripe comes with questioning the usefulness, in some instances at least, of knowing about minutiae design "tech details" and how these are convertible into or relate to actual perceived sound. The designer/developer him- or herself should have a closer bearing perhaps, but oftentimes I feel such knowledge presented to the end user, illuminating it may be as a field and entity in itself, has a tendency to produce disciples almost or followers of a brand/principle rather than critical, informed individuals that would seek not to equate too easily." Erik’s thread is entitled, "Why don’t horns image well?", and the entire text of his opening post is, "Anyone have a theory?". In asking for theories, it seemed like Erik was inviting "tech details" as well as how they "relate to actual perceived sound". My mistake. I don’t wish to impose anything unwelcome on you or on anyone else. Duke |
Duke has made some great comments addressing the topic, answering it to its fullest. If you don't get the nerdy part of it, it translates as: "A well designed horn images as well as any other speaker". Having made a good number of my own recordings, I can attest to that fact, by using those same recordings. Its not just theory- horns have been some of the most musical and involving speakers I've heard (Duke's amongst them, and his are unusually good deals on top of that), including their ability to image and play depth. |
I do think both are useful and fun, but we should be careful about being sure when we join one to the other. Best, E |
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@audiokinesis -- Such was not my impression of your replies in this thread (i.e.: that you're imposing something "unwelcome" on any of us), nor have I - from what I'm able to recollect - thought so at an earlier juncture of your post contributions. Please don't let me stop your efforts here, efforts I'm sure many appreciate. When do we ever not let us be affected, at least occasionally, by technicalities and design principles in regards to what we may be "preaching" or decides to invest in? Really some of the worst theory-laden approach in my mind tends to be the person with an engineering degree who opposes this or that scenario - like power cords and their argued effect on sound with reference to "science," without giving the slightest hint at ever having listened instead of solely theorized. Utter bollocks (pardon my language). Currently I'm in the process of having a pair of tapped horn subwoofers build to my all-horn main speakers, though I've never heard these TH monsters - quite intimidating to ponder.. I'm doing a lot of theorizing on this, at times even desperately, in the hope these particular iterations will integrate successfully. They take up some 20 cubic feet per horn (read: there are two of them for a moderately sized listening room), tuned at ~22Hz, and by all accounts they'll weigh in the vicinity of 250lbs (incl. the driver) a piece with the Baltic Birch ply chosen. Insanity potentially abounds, so (note to self) let's have some positive theorizing on their supposed advantages. To reiterate: I find horns can image excellently, but perhaps they do so differently, not least influenced by their sonic "signature" in general. |
I’ll try to make this short. Lusted after Klipschorns since I was in college (70’s), bought a pair used years ago , struggled w loving the sound, turning up the the volume, finding the sound harsh, turning the volume down, found the Volti website, bought the full upgrade, spent a couple of weekends doing the upgrade, spent more on the upgrades than the speakers, thought I must be crazy, did 1 at a time- the difference was huge- played w adjusting the crossovers- realizing I must have some high frequency loss, got input from my kids ( who were very insightful in their comments), still have them- love them- without the upgrades, probably would have sold them & moved on- some of you will say I shoulda, maybe I’m crazy, but I’m happy crazy. |
Mostly a speaker that has a narrower highs and upper mids "hot spot" (beaming) is the better at imaging eg: quads (especially 57’s), ML’s, Acoustat most esl’s, ribbons tweeters and Maggie longer full length ribbon ones. Horns tend to give a wall of sound, but rarely can image pinpoint in the horizontal and vertical and depth like the above ones mentioned can. Image masters were the Acoustat 1+1 and the 1’s also 57 Quads, because of their narrow trebble/mid panel, which were all a one man speaker for the hot spot, and your head had to be in a vice. Acoustat 1+1 https://img.ukaudiomart.com/uploads/large/260124-accoustat_11_with_medalion_interface_mk_121c.jpg Acoustat 1 http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1496795-acoustat-1-1-electrostatic-speaker-pair-plus-medall... Cheers George |
As I have said many times on various A'gon threads, Klipsch were always designed with a particular price point in mind. My favorites, the original Heritage models, designed by PWK, were always, imo, and ime, great designs, but unless they were " fixed ", of their shortcomings, they might not have won you over. To respond to Eric : set up correctly, they can " disappear " as well as any other design. However, imaging and soundstaging are not the attributes that I enjoy most about them ( although, it is definitely icing on the cake ). I will not go into them here, as I have spoken about it so many times before. Just my 2 cents. Enjoy ! MrD. |
My highly modified Klipschorns suffer very little in direct comparison to my highly modified Merlin VSM. Hard panned information does 'stick' to the Klipshcorns a bit more, the Merlins seem to disappear with the same hard panned information. I think much of this difference is due to baffle width. The Volti horns are much better than the stock Klipschorn horn in regard to imaging. Center imaging is pretty much even. |
Horns tend to give a wall of sound, but rarely can image pinpoint in the horizontal and vertical and depth like the above ones mentioned can.This statement is simply false. It may be true for some earlier horns as the throat design and curvature of the horn flare affect its response. These days that is optimized with CAD; horns can image as well as any other tech. |
As a follow-up to my suggestion above of horns imaging "differently," it's not meant to imply they do so 'per se,' but rather in comparison to a range of direct radiating speakers - I believe that's very important to point out. Really what it comes down to for me is the sensation of uninhibitedness as a desirable trait, and I gather imaging is if not irrelevant, then a part of the overall "equation" that comes to life largely via presence, dynamics and ease as something more substantial and dense in quality horn speakers; this, to me, typically imparts other terms of describing the sound as "imaging." |
horns can image as well as any other tech.This is a false statement. Klipsch, set up correctly, they can " disappear " as well as any other design. However, imaging and sound staging are not the attributes that I enjoy most about them+1 MrD "Wall of sound", and "image/depth placement" to me are separate identities. "Wall of sound" is heard not really seen eg: Horns, Headphones. "Image and depth placement" is seen and heard, ribbons, esl's, ect. Any diffuser that radiates the sound so it's splashes/spreads the sound left and right across the room and will also gives added room reflections, will give a "wall of sound" effect which is pleasing to some (aka Bose 901's). But will totally trash precise image placement and depth perception. This was demo'ed to us the whole range of Magnepan speakers and Klipsch K-Horns, the best "imaging/depth perception" one was the narrowest Maggie, but it was also only a one man hot seat, the worst was the Maggie Tympani and the K-Horn which were the largest "wall of sound" effect, but as for "image and depth" perception their was virtually none. Also if an owner puts all his gear on stands in between the speakers, is asking to diminish his image and depth perception. The great Nevile Thiel (rip) once told me this and he was right, once I shifted all the gear to the side instead I never look back, no matter how nice and glitzy it looked in between the speakers. Cheers George |
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It was a demo’d in Sydney by the Maggie importer at the time at a clients converted warehouse who used k-horn, amps used were bought along by Allen Wright (rip), which were heavily modded tube theatre mono block amps and bought my massive water cooled 150w Pure-Class-A S/S. there were 10 of us we all thought the same. But the owner of the warehouse and the K-Horns (which came last in image and depth perception), bought the Tympani’s instead because they did fill/drive the massive room better than the narrower models could. Cheers George |
The best imaging I have ever heard from a well-off-centerline listening location was with the fully horn loaded ESD speakers at RMAF last weekend. Very narrow-pattern horns (even the bass was horn loaded). The center image was extremely solid and precise. If blindfolded I would have sworn there was a center channel speaker of the same caliber as the left and right speakers. I didn't know ANYTHING could image like that. Duke |
Going back to the late 70s, early 80s, I took every opportunity to audition as many audio components and speakers as possible. What struck me about the big horns like the Klipsch K Horns and the big Altec Lansing horns, was heir large full sound. The imaging didn’t seem as deep or well placed as the stats and ribbons, like the Quads, Acoustats and Magnapans or some of the dynamic speakers like the Vandersteens or Thiels, but their sound was BIG. Even though I fell in love with the Quads and happily lived with them for many years, my favorite speakers was and still is, the large full range Apogees - the Divas, Scintillas and Duettas. Not only is their sound large and full, like the big horns, but their imaging, detail and realism of instruments and vocals, is incredible. The down side, particularly with the Divas and Scintillas, is - they require a large room and (unlike the big horns) they require allot of good power. Have been giving a lot of thought lately, to the more easily managed, smaller sibling - a nicely refurbished pair of Duetta Sigs.....Jim |
+1 Jim , exactly what I found, even with today's horn loaded speakers, like Avantguard range ect, a wall of sound I call it without much pinpoint image placement and depth perception, like all the esl's, planers and ribbons you mentioned can do. Still enjoyable, just not my cup of tee to live with. Cheers George |
I have Audiokinesis Dream Makers and some months ago I changed the four compression drivers from Celestion CDX1-1445 to PRV Audio D290Py-B. This lifted a veil, and improved imaging too. Not beryllium standard (I guess) but very good for a reasonable cost. I actually changed the four compression drivers in the LCS speakers too, so now all four speakers run the same PRV drivers, giving the sound more coherence. |
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I don't find that the older horns imaged as well. As horn designs improved with the advent of CAD, so did the imaging. But a lot has to do with what you hook up to them- and those older horn systems were designed for amps with higher output impedances. If you hook up an amp with lower output impedances, the crossovers often don't work right. I've no doubt that would affect their performance! |
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kosst, I would love to have both of our sets in a room and do a shoot out. You can pick the equipment, the music, anything. Anytime....Based on what other complaints you have stated in other posts, imaging was not the biggest negative to you when it came to horns. So stating your agreement with George is false. However, it is nice that you and George can agree about something. Miracles do happen. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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Ask Alon Wolf of Magico why he designed a horn speaker as his flagship speaker? Or Tannoy why their best speaker is a horn speaker. Ushers flagship is a horn. Living Voices flagship is a horn too. I love horns and own one of these pairs. I think if setup correctly, they can image real well. They are not perfect, but there are reasons why these manufacturers chose a horn design to build the absolute best speaker they can dream of. IMHO horns have two problems. They are expensive and they are large....thats it. Horns are for people who dont have to ask their wives for permission to have big speakers in the house. |
Peter Noerbaek (PBN)'s new flagship is a horn... and ime it’s an absolutely magnificent speaker. It uses the horn and compression driver from JBL’s M2 studio monitor, with TWO of the same woofers that the JBL uses. To the best of my knowledge this is Peter’s first home audio horn speaker, and he has a LOT of experience building excellent large, high-output loudspeakers. Unfortunately most audiophiles listen with their eyes, and so Peter’s magnificent M2!5’s are still under-the-radar. In the high-end studio main monitor world, performance is what counts the most. Recording engineers don’t listen with their eyes, and in that world horns are much more widely accepted. Augspurger, Westlake, TAD, JBL and Kinoshita come to mind off the top of my head, and many if not most companies that use direct radiators in their high-end mains use waveguides (a type of horn) for their midrange and tweeter drivers. By the way, coaxials like the Tannoys and KEFs and Spatial Audios are horns. The midwoofer’s cone is the horn for the coaxial tweeter. Last I heard, people had nice things to say about the imaging from these designs. Not all horns are created equal, just as not all cone-n-dome speakers are created equal. But ime "horns done right" have greater potential than the cone-n-dome format, which is why you see horns showing up in flagship speakers from companies whose other designs are mostly if not entirely direct radiators. Duke |
Duke...…+1...……...folks like kosst who still have not heard an excellent example of horns in a home environment, will troll the entire concept. And, when we speak of what we hear, with passion, they assume we are suggesting perfection. We all know perfection does not exist. Another thing, we, the horn folks, generally do not go on other threads bashing other speaker types, which believe me, I ( we ) can easily do. Enjoy MrD. |
Try to audition these : http://horns.pl/de/lautsprecher-set/universum-3-way/You would be surprised how they image. |
