What is the difference ? Is it really worth ten times the price to get hospital grade receptacles ? Why ? Is one brand really superior to another? Is Pass & Seymore a good brand ? Hubble better ? I am setting up a closet to house my mid-fi gear and will be running two dedicated 20A. lines to run the 2-channel audio and the home entertainment equipment. I will have two double (2 duplex receptacles) on each 20A circuit. Thank you in advance.
I myself have a strong inclination for debate. In fact, I tried to bury my wife one too many times with her own words, and thankfully I stopped when she called my attention to it.
In answer to your question, of course the community welcomes a diversity of opinions. I believe that ojections arose when your contentions rang not of opinion but rather as indisputable fact. And while I'm sure that no one here has an issue with you having long settled this issue in your mind, your posts damned the validity of other people's opinions. At least that's how they read to me. My only request is that you add a dash of curiosity to your obviously profound knowledge and enthusiasm for science, in which case I have no doubt that we would all benefit immensely. All the best, Howard
Albert, I will think of you every time I look at a picture of a TI product. I am very sorry that you view this discussion as an attack.
There is a person I've seen newsgroup postings from that has a really cool quote in his sig. It says "music is art, audio is engineering". I often don't agree with that person, but you can't argue with that sig quote.
And by the way, Albert, not only do you need a lesson in physics, but in reading. I never said I had a degree in physics, I suggested that someone in this thread get one. Was that you? I can't remember. The suggestion still stands... of course, alas, that may not help. If I remember correctly, the seminal work in the speaker-cables-sound-different field was done in Stereophile by Dick Olsher, and I think he is/was a physicist at Los Alamos. In your case I just happen to think a little knowledge might make you more open-minded.
Boa2, to answer your last question first, I am having fun, but I'm not looking for a fight. Not one bit. I just like a debate, perhaps too much. The reason I answered Saki70 had nothing to do with hospital-grade outlets, it was because some people were saying that outlets sound significantly different, so I asked why. I also gave my opinions that there were no differences, and that the reason there were no differences was because there were no measurable differences. While I haven't A/B'd outlets, I have done so for power cords, heard no difference (of course I didn't expect to - is that a problem?), and postulated that if power cords made no difference certainly outlets wouldn't. The conversation went downhill from there.
Doesn't "the community" allow a diversity of opinions? Or is that diversity only allowed to fall into the very narrow range of people that are willing to wish differences into existence?
By the way, Hdm, I really didn't answer you properly last night. The "$50 multimeter" was for verifying that the resistance of properly functioning conventional power cords and outlets are essentially zero. My comment that a more sophisticated instrument would be necessary for determining the improvement due to cryogenics was because I believe whatever improvement there might be will be below the resolution of a typical multimeter, and that's because the resistance of the cord or outlet starts out so low to begin with. I'm sorry my statements appeared contradictory, but I think they are relatively clear if you read closely, rather than just be poised and ready to attack. Are we really supposed to believe that differences in current of far less than 1% make a difference? Never mind, that's a rhetorical question.
The reason I ignored your comparison to Leonardo da Vinci is that we are dealing with decidedly smaller minds here. My comments did not include the great creators and artists who's worth has been proven by history, but rather observations of the dogmatic people at hand.
Leonardo da Vinci would not be debating these points, he would be designing, drawing and experimenting to discover the path to greatness, regardless of personal cost.
My anger is directed at those who take the stance, "Everything that effects the music can be measured." A point of view that leaves no room for discovery or creativity.
How can you assume you know everything there is to know about scientific measurement? Even if you take the path of using (proven) measurements at hand, do you then dismiss all discoveries that fall outside of what we currently know?
If something works on a consistent and repeatable basis and we cannot apply a number or measurement to it, we have work to do in the field of measurement. I prefer thinking we have more to learn, not that we know it all.
As for my being able to afford whatever I want, you are terribly wrong. I would wager what little money I have, both you and Irvrobinson have more money and less debt than I do.
The difference between us the level of passion in what we believe.
I will do without many personal items and all luxuries to make my music the best it can be. That requires all the pieces I have in my system, including audiophile cables. I doubt you have that commitment and because those details are not worth that level of personal investment, you dismiss it.
I think Irvrobinson just likes to argue, it has nothing to do with passion and certainly not anything to do with making his system better.
Odd that some come to Audiogon, a decidedly high end audio site and completely dismiss an entire range of product used and respected by every major high end audio manufacturer in the business.
Albertporter...Two kinds of insults are being thrown about here.
(1) Because you HAVE formal scientific training you cannot maintain an open mind. (By the way you never got back to me about Leonardo da Vinci).
(2) Because you DO NOT HAVE scientific training you cannot make sense.
Both wrong, of course.
Where do I come from? Well, I was a most awful student, but did manage to escape college with an engineering degree. Hired as a tech writer, and then moving into real engineering I gradually picked up the stuff I should have learned in school. I was quite successful as an engineer, not because I was technically savvy, but because I was famous for thinking "out of the box". I had people working under my direction who had masters and PHD degrees. I would never discount their contributions to my work because they often put my crazy ideas on solid ground by analysis that I personally could not do. Also, I always valued the technicians in the lab, some with little formal training, who made the ideas work in the real world.
From the appearance of your system I conclude that expense is no issue for you. Most people, on the other hand, need to trade off cryo'd wires and outlets against better speakers, and hype doesn't carry much weight in this process. Someone commented, above, that your superb system would not exist were it not for some fine engineering. Don't forget that.
One other minor point...when you cite your Grammy-winning friend who likes your equipment, you should make clear at the beginning that the guy is a classical musician. Pop musicians are mostly half deaf: an occupational hazard.
Cheers to Irvrobinson and Eldartford for questioning and challenging commonly held beliefs (despite the barrage of insults.) I personally have no interest in tweaks that are controversial in nature, but have followed this thread because of its interesting debate on both sides. Everyone`s opinions have value and the interaction in this topic is what a discussion forum is all about. But don`t lose sight of the fact that "it`s all about the music".
Irvrobinson, This community exists and expands upon a foundation of curiosity and question. But in your first thread on Audiogon, you have sufficiently proven that you have no such contribution to offer this community. Your points are well taken, and they serve you well. But do they serve this community? Just what exactly are you intending to contribute to this inquisitive group of people who believe wholeheartedly that the malleability of the game is the very reason to get into it at all?
Exactly when do you resist debating an issue that is not even a point of exploration for you? If Saki70 wants to try out hospital grade receptacles, so what? And if he doesn't find them to be amenable to his system, he can do like the rest of us and sell them. Do you honestly think that you can save a bunch of curiosity-driven audiophiles from themselves, or are you simply determined to initiate yourself into Audiogon with a good fight?
His system is used to edit the discs for sale at your local music store. He toopurchased Purist cable throughout. But hey, what does he know? A degree from Juilliard can't possibly qualify him to know what sounds good. A Physics degree is required for that.
That machine we are both "pecking" on is partially the development of Texas Instruments, of which several of their key people are friends of mine. I have been doing photography for them for nearly 20 years.
Here is the fuel cell press release for Jack Harrod, an avid audiophile and another person suffering from hallucinations of purchasing Purist power cables.
Jack lives in a multimillion dollar home with original art work, including one Pablo Picasso. He has a fabulous sound system. Likely one you would not approve of because it is all tube and has high end cable throughout.
Between Jack and our Grammy award winning musician, we have some real catching up to do to equal our resident Physics genus.
By the way, Jack tried to use a volt-ohm meter to verify the quality of the Picasso. It did not read 100 on the meter so we are now afraid to enjoy it for fear we have been duped.
I void to never again add to this useless thread, but Irvrobinson's last post saying, "If someone will send me at least one cryo'd cable I'll give it a listen." is the ultimate in hubris. He thinks he is the authority!
Irvrobinson, it's a lot more fun to argue with you than it is with some other visitors. You stand up for yourself fine but you don't seem to take it terribly seriously. And nobody has made any ad hominem attacks. Thanks, everyone, for that.
In fact, although I am embarrassed at taking over Saki70's thread (though not too much to keep me from posting again), may I invite you both to my place next time you are in Montreal. It's a nice town to visit, if you've never been. If you do drop by, I will offer you a beverage and swap power cords on my preamp for you so you can hear the difference, or not. It was certainly an eye-opener for me, and many others have had a similar experience. In fact, as audio demos go, it is generally a real winner, right up there with analog vs digital.
As for the plug test you recommend I do--I must have expressed myself badly if you think I care. The point I wanted to make was that contacts under pressure are more efficient (and safer) than loose ones. I hardly think this can be a contentious opinion. It is a reason to buy quality outlets regardless of what they do to the sound. Only, if you think what they do to the sound may become important to you in future, better buy the ones you want right off. Upgrading outlets is a money pit. You might as well try to sell used toothbrushes.
I can think of one or two reasons why efficient power transfer to audio equipment might affect the sound, but honest, I don't want to bother arguing. Power cords been very very good to me, to coin a phrase. So have a dedicated line, shielded AC wiring, and isolation via a transformer. In the case of some of these items, the difference was both so nice and so cheap compared with a component upgrade that I can't imagine hesitating. But my opinion about it is pragmatic, not scientific.
Your double-blind notion might be fun if I were playing around with my son. He could swap cords, or not, while I was out of the room and I could try and say which was which. The result would be proof for some but not for others, which is why I wouldn't do it unless my son wanted to play. Some say, for example, that short-term swaps ignore the range rule: since a sound system is made for listening over long periods, swift A-B switches are no way to judge components. Particularly if the test subject has to identify the component, which is so far from normal use of a sound system it's not funny.
I am enjoying reading this ( Saki70's !! ) thread. I wonder, though, how long you will be able to hang on to the collective hallucination idea. In the case of my Ensemble power cords, both I and my best audio buddy described the difference they made the same way, in different systems 500 miles apart. Think of IM distortion, or jitter. Before they could be identified and measured, people had to notice differences that measurements couldn't explain. And, before they could be measured, maintain that those differences were there in spite of opposition !
Albert, experience ain't enough. Your ears (well, actually your brain) can and will deceive you. And at least some rudimentary science does count. You see, Albert, you're pecking an answer me on a machine that wouldn't exist without a pretty breathtaking understanding of how electricity is conducted through all sorts of materials, taking into account some pretty subtle effects that are sometimes down to a mere trickle (metaphorically speaking) of electrons on signal paths less than a micron wide. And then, laughably, you use that very device to tell me that the science of signal propagation, that's much simpler than that for integrated circuits, doesn't matter. I've got news for you - it matters.
Now I know that a big deal is being made here that I haven't listened to a cryo'd power cord or outlet, so therefore my arguments aren't valid. But guys, I have listened to many different power cables, speaker cables and interconnects - in a damn revealing system - and I heard no difference. None. Nada. Now are you arguing that cryo'd cables are necessary to hear the difference?
And by the way, before any of you guys argue that I haven't heard proper cables, here's the list:
An Audioquest power cord the dealer had me try when I bought my first ML amp. He was very nice to me, so I humored him. No difference. It sure looked nice, though. I thanked him for the experience and returned it.
Cardas Quadlink interconnects. Nice color! I found these at a garage sale / estate sale for $20, in perfect condition. I use them on my video system,for audio (with an $80 receiver). No difference on the main system.
Audioquest Midnight and Green Hyperlitz speaker cables. I could have sworn they didn't sound as good as my home-made 10AWG cables, but I must have been imagining things. They certainly didn't sound better. (Have you ever cut one of these open? There's so little copper in there you wonder how they work properly at all. All to try and manage skin effect at audio frequencies...)
So now what? I suppose now I need to have my ears cleaned or my hearing checked?
Hdm, not only have you quoted me improperly and out of context, but you don't know what you're talking about. I figured all of that measurement stuff was chest beating. I'll tell you what, though. If someone will send me at least one cryo'd cable I'll give it a listen. But buy it, you've got to be kidding.
Did you really spend more on the cable than the DVD player? That's... funny!
I don't mind those who venture into the forums at Audiogon and say, "I prefer Nordost over Purist and Cardas." Or, "I tried a NBS power cord on my CD player and although it was better, I did not feel it was worth the investment."
Those are honest experiences, regardless if you agree or disagree with their conclusion.
What angers me are the "specification and numbers" types that have nothing better to do than smugly report that the sum of ALL our experience is an aberration because it was not covered in school.
I do not advocate anyone buy expensive cables, that is something each of us must decide for ourselves. THAT decision should be made in the end users system, based on listening.
Irv: For a science guy, you seem to be getting caught in your own lies. A few posts above, you say it can be measured with a $50 multimeter, now you're saying I need some pretty heavy duty gear! You crack me up!
Not being a science guy, I could care less. But I can tell you, BASED ON EXPERIENCE, that the cables and outlets I had cryoed measured quite a bit differently following cryo. It was not my multimeter (who knows, it may not have even been a multimeter), but belonged to the cryo vendor where I have my stuff done. And yes, it appeared to be a very inexpensive device! If you want to really educate yourself (somehow I doubt it), you can do a web search for Bayson Heat Treating and contact Mark there. I'm sure he'd be happy to give you the measurements. As for me, I could care less about the measurements; I'm only interested in the sound.
FWIW, I use a $40 DVD player as my digital front end, DIY power cords that cost me about $100 each and an $80 interconnect. So, I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle than Albert, but ending up with the same conclusion.
Don't belittle something you have absolutely no experience with. It just makes you look foolish.
Albertporter...The notion that a degree in physics inhibits thought takes the cake.
I am simply applying Irvrobinsons version of the truth and arriving at a logical conclusion.
His degree is obviously an impediment. He refers to it, clings to it and tells us we need a BS in it, then describes measurements with volt-ohm meters as though they were the last word on this topic.
Worse, he believes we should stand in awe of his degree and accept his words of wisdom in spite of our own experiences and what has been proven in real world tests.
I suggest he contact Jeff Rowland, Richard Vandersteen, Tube Research, Kharma, McCormack audio and others that are misguided into believing that cable (including power cords) make a difference.
I'll bet they are waiting by their phones to be "saved." Perhaps you could help him by dialing the phone for him?
The issue in this thread is that some people have been asserting that there are differences between power cords and outlets because they claim to hear them. And there are other people, like Iverobinson, that are assume the differences they hear are due to their imagination because there cannot be any. So it does come down to dueling assertions. I believe mine has much more standing because 1. the placebo effect has limited applicability, and 2. 120v/60Hz electrical signal measures, even were they taken, fail to capture all that is happening along ac wires. They would rather believe their limited understanding of science than their own ears and live with the ever present fear that they may be taken in by a con.
Hdm - I have not measured any cryo'd cable. For one thing, I'm not sure how I would measure the difference, unless the improvement was on the order of 50%!!
A run-of-the-mill 14AWG Cu cable has resistance of .0026 ohms per foot. So, a ten foot power cable would have about .03 ohms of resistance. The resolution of my test equipment is about .001 ohms, so the improvement from cryogenics would have to be big for me to see it. I don't use 14AWG cords, I use 12AWG cords, which are about .0017 ohms per foot, so, if I may ask, how are *you* measuring the difference? On what? In my opinion, a .001 ohm difference in a power cord is worth essentially nothing. Every outlet and plug I have measured, only to test for proper function, measure zero ohms (in other words, beyond my multimeter resolution).
Cryo treatments *do* change metallic structures. It's popular for good reason with brake rotors, for example. But it doesn't materially improve cables.
Irvrobinson, . Simply put - cryoing does make a difference and that difference varies depending on the item involved (cables, CD's interconnects, Power Cords, etc.). . I have done double blind A/B studies (repeated over a two week period) that absolutely proves to me that cryoing works and it is a significant improvement. . It matters not that you can't measure it with a meter. It matters that two people can hear and appreciate the difference during double blinded studies. . Albert - Hello to you - keep on cyoing outlets and selling them to grateful audiogoners - you are a pleasure to have amongst us. .
Darrylhifi, the answer is, your electrician is not mentally restricted by a degree in Physics. He is able to consider the fact that something that cannot be measured can be heard.
Irvrobinson, as for me being "duped" by comparisons, it must be a ten year hallucination and affecting tens of dozens of people who visit here. I am truly frustrated by your ignorance.
Irvrobinson: Would you be so kind as to tell us what power cords and outlets you have had cryogenically treated and how they measured before and after the treatment? I'm simply asking because all of the cabling/outlets I've had treated measured differently with reduced resistance following treatment. Perhaps you could tell us what you've had cryoed, where, the type of treatment and how it measured before and after?
Hmmm, no wonder why when I had my friend who is an electrician {but non audiophile} intalling lines in my audio room , I had a Wattgate , PS Audio, and a Tice outlet, he seemed {by the look on his face} most impressed with the Tice , which is orange.
Tubegroover, I was only joking in my "orange improved the soundstaging" post. I was making fun of the "inter-note silences" and "microdynamics" bs I read in so many high-end reviews.
As for Albert Porter... yes, I am saying that you've all been duped by (at best) a placebo effect, at least with regards to differences between properly functioning power cords, outlets, and cryogenic treatments of such devices. I've been a fool often enough myself that I'm certainly not prone to tagging someone else with that designation. Nonetheless, since cryogenic treatment does not materially affect the resistance or capacitance of a power cord or an outlet, how does the treatment affect power transfer? The answer is that it doesn't. A $50 multimeter from Sears will show this.
The issue in this thread is that some people have been asserting that there are differences between power cords and outlets because they claim to hear them. And there are other people, like me, that are asserting that any differences you hear are likely due to your imagination because there are no measurable differences in the signal conducted. So it does come down to dueling assertions. I believe mine has much more standing because 1. listening tests not under double-blind conditions are proven to be scientifically invalid, and 2. 120v/60Hz electrical signals are easily measured and characterized by inexpensive testing equipment, and these measurements reveal NO differences at all. I actually give more credibility to UFO abduction stories than I do to audible differences between power cables (and I don't give UFO stories much credibility either).
Saki70... orange is the industry standard color to signify isolated ground circuits, but outlets with isolated ground construction (phase, neutral, case ground, conduit ground) can be acquired in many colors. You only really need orange for something like an electronics lab, where some test equipment needs a very clean ground (for voltage reference purposes, perhaps) and you don't want to accidentally use a conventional circuit. You might get inconsistent results.
For dedicated audio circuits isolated grounds are sort of like belt and suspenders, if you know what I mean. In many cases you won't hear the difference. When you're installing new circuits it's not that much more expensive, and you just might get lower noise. So why not? When I did mine I didn't think twice about it (though I had to get ivory isolated ground outlets special ordered, so we lived with orange for a couple of weeks).
Saki70, you are correct in your understanding of the difference between the isolated ground and non-isolated ground receptacles. If you are going to the trouble of installing an isolated ground cable runs, it's probably worthwhile to finish this off by keeping the isolated ground completely separated from the bare grounding wire loop. But, if you are using Romex cable rather than metal clad cable (or if you are installing into plastic wall boxes rather than metal boxes), and if you are using a dedicated line going to a single outlet, the use of an isolated gound receptacle probably is not as important as it might otherwise be because you are already isolating everything back to the grounding bar of your electrical panel. (Caveat: This is based purely on the reading that I've done and from what I've learned from more knowledgable folks posting here in the past; I don't claim expertise and I'd be happy to be corrected by someone who is an expert.) .
Irvrobinson; Are you saying that an isolated ground system does not need to use isolated grounding receptacles ? I thought (possibly incorrectly) that they were made differently. Something with the way that the strap or ears were connected to the case of the receptacle for grounding purposes. As I said, I don't know much about this. Just trying to get it right the first time !
"The only downside was that I noticed some softening of the micro-dynamics, but I only noticed it when using unbalanced interconnects."
I don't know about you Irv but sometimes too much leading edge on the transients of the micro dynamics can sound artificial. I kinda like it when the microdynamics are softened, just a tad.
Seriously though, you might benefit just a bit if you could just eliminate your preconceived institutional thinking and just trust your ears. Often times as not what is seemingly snake oil can fool you. Being skeptical of many things audio I can say with a straight face that I have definitely heard differences in outlets and powercords. I really don't know why this should be but it is real. Don't dismiss Albert Porter too readily, he has invested many years and has listened extensively to many products. You don't mean to say that we're all a bunch of fools and are being duped by a group think plecebo effect, do you?
The orange color widened the soundstage considerably. The inter-note silences were also deeper and blacker. The only downside was that I noticed some softening of the micro-dynamics, but I only noticed it when using unbalanced interconnects.
Sorry, Saki70, I was having entirely too much fun. Isolated grounding is highly recommended, if only to make sure that the outlets are indeed grounded properly! You'd be surprised how may homes/apts have screwed up grounding.
One thing to watch for that annoyed a previous spouse... an electrician will install orange outlets for isolated ground circuits, unless you direct him differently. My spouse found the bright orange offensive.
Irv, for someone who hides behind a curtain of science (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) and has distain((???) do you mean disdain) for anyone who who uses the scientific means of proving something, you certainly are critical of science. As I pointed out the scientific method of proof, is one which is observable, and repeatable. No, I am not a scientist, but I did get A's and B's in two years of college physics.
The ability to measure results has nothing to do with their validity. Albert is right when he points out that there are things around us every day that everyone accepts without question that cannot be measured or even understood.
The strangest thing about science, and people who claim to be conversant in scientific theory is that people who are doing 'cutting edge' research are far less dogmatic about any scientific theory than thier less knowledgable counterparts in the educational or business world.
If Albert and thousands of others have conducted the scientific experiment of replacing PC's, outlets, and/or cables and expereinced an observable, and repeated result, whose, experience has greater validity? The one who lectures from the lab table, or the one who conducted the experiment, and observed the results.
I am not talking about component specs describing audio quality.
I am not talking about measurements of the electrical signal describing audio quality.
All I say, which no rational person can deny, is that a loudspeaker's sound is completely defined by the electrical signal applied to it, as processed by the particular loudspeaker's sonic signature. If the identical electrical waveform is applied to the speaker two times the sonic output is identical, and we don't have to actually listen to the sound to know that. As a result of this the EXISTANCE of any sonic effect due to a tweek, including outlets and power cords, can be determined objectively by observing the signal waveform.
EXISTANCE. EXISTANCE. EXISTANCE. I say nothing about whether any sonic effect is good or bad. IF, IF, IF, the electrical waveform does change THEN THEN THEN it is time ro roll up your superb system and give a listen.
Rushton, Now, that was a perfect response to Saki70's question. I think that was what he was looking for. For the record, what you suggested was exactly the route I took when I began working on my listening room. I have used the "Porterports" and every other application you laid out in your post, with the exception of the Walker SST, which is on my "to do" list. I don't know nothin' 'bout no science involved but I can tell you that I do hear a difference from the "before" to the "after".
Setting all the arguments aside, If the user is willing to experiment with these tweaks and is willing to hear the difference, and does hear the difference, then THAT is all that matters. Power issues are part of the synergy of the complete system package. And in the end, the only one who needs to be satisfied, is the owner of said system.
This has been a typical degenerating discussion from the those who claim to be from the "scientific perspective" who claim without measurement that there is no difference among components or wire because of several perspectives. Either it "just cannot be", Irvrobinson above; "others have to demonstrate it "scientifically;" or "science theory precludes it." On the other side are those who say they hear a difference and therefore there is a difference. Usually they say one of several things: measurement of differences apart from what one hears falls short of being complete; they don't care what measurement might say and that they are happy with their choice; or that the objectivists "just cannot hear" or "don't have a sufficientlly resolving system to hear the differences." There also is the suggestion that the objectivists are resentful as they don't have a pot to piss in.
If there is no agreement on how the hypothesis that wires don't make a difference is correct, this dispute cannot be resolved. There is no agreement on evaluating it. Therefore 100 years from now, it will continue.
Irvrobinson, I find it interesting that someone with no posting history listed should jump into Saki70's question the way you have. I also find your contributions to this thread in no way useful. You're arguing from theory with no experimentation. So, I will repeat, I totally agree with everything Albert has said above. If you'd like to engage in some informed dialog here on this topic in this forum, I suggest you do some experimentation and then share your listening observations which may confirm or bring into question your assertions. Until then, I'm going to put you into my TROLL classification because that behavior is all that I'm seeing from you in this thread. Much of what you're arguing has been discussed endlessly on Audiogon; read some of the archives and try a few things for yourself or partner with someone who is willing to help you listen for what they hear. .
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