The first thing to reduce brightness is to position the Forte’s to fire directly forward to start off. The more you tow them in until they’re facing directly at you, the brighter they will be.
Second, I’ve tried several tube amps including the McIntosh MC275 VI and Rogue ST100 with Dark upgrades, a solid state Enleum 23R, and a hybrid Van Alstine 600R, but the best amp that I tried has been the First Watt F7. The F7 adds more body and warmth while reducing the brightness. You need to be careful matching a preamp to the F7 because of its low input impedance (10K ohms), so the preamp should have a low output impedance (preferably <100 ohms). I’ve tried 3 preamps with the F7, Holo Serene KTE, Holo Bliss KTE and a Van Alstine FETValve CF and they all worked beautifully with the F7. Another post above by dsper mentioned he’s had excellent results with the F7 as well.
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I own a pair of Forte IIIs, unmodified, and I've found best pairing for high efficiency Klipsch IMO are low power SET or SEP amps of high quality build. My Forte III's sound simply magical paired with a Dennis Had Inspire KT88 whether I run 6550s, EL34s, 6L6s or KT88s. Dennis built my KT88 with a volume pot so I don't need a preamp or have to use other gain control elements. A wired or wireless streamer (I run a Cambridge Audio CXN V2 with "warmer" dual Wolfson DACs) straight to the Inspire amp and on to the Klipsch Forte IIIs. It's a simple, yet wonderful sounding way to access tons of HiRes tracks that sound superb. And yes, experiment with speaker placement, toe-in, etc. to find your sweet spot. You'll enjoy ever minute of musical paradise!
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OP,
Here are my old Forte IIIs paired with tubes in a nearly empty music room (before decoration a few years back).
yes it’s YouTube but you should be able to get how splendid they can sound. By the way turn up the volume to hear the great dynamics.
i think pairing is key. I sold that PL integrated when I didn’t prefer it with other speakers-after the Forte IIIs
were gone too.
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OP, thanks for giving us more information.
I am on the side that thinks you should be able to rectify the situation. I’ve powered Forte IIIs and CWIVs with many different amps. They are sensitive to amp pairing and source. The Naim pairing sticks out to me yet I have been surprised at pairings.
I loved the IIIs with tubes. Surprisingly they can sound killer with SS too.
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Hi All,
FWIW, as an update, I've had my Forte iv's about nine months now and have been enjoying them with a First Watt F7.
I recently retubed my CJ LP66S amp with Gold Lion 6992's and Electro Harmonix 6990's and reinserted it into my system. Big improvement over the old tubes as the tube treble is cleaner and the overall tone is improved.
The tubes have a better "presence" or live sound compared to the F7, which seems almost a bit polite in comparison. Also, for me, the 60wpc adds a body to the Fortes that is ultimately missing with the F7 and its 25wpc.
Of course, what I think sounds better may change in another six months!😊 Probably as much about making a change versus one amp is truly better than the other...!?
Thanks for listening,
Dsper
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Here's a photo of modified Forte III crossover board. OEM wiring replaced with better cabling and PC traces bypassed and replaced with point to point wiring.
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This image shows the stock crossover and input terminals. YES, please tighten the fasteners. It also shows how easy it is to clip off the lugs on the cabling and directly solder to lugs on the input terminals.
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The big Klipsch speakers are very revealing and shamelessly unforgiving when presented with less than optimium characteristics from other components -- including the room. As several contributors here have correctly stated in this thread, the "aggresssive" Klipsch sound can be tamed by placing attention on other factors contributing to overall sound quality.
A word about horn dampening:
We’ve successfully completed this process on a large number of Klipsch speakers with consistent results that are highly predictable. The horn bodies share the same interior space as the woofer on several models. The woofer’s rear wave creates sympathic resonances with the horn bodies causing them to vibrate. You can walk up the speaker and place your hand on the midrange horn while playing and you will feel the vibrations. And, yes, you can hear them as well. The mid and tweeter drivers do create vibrations as well, so I recommend dampening the horns on all models regardless of whether the woofer shares the same cavity. The energy emmanating from the vibrating horn body creates waves that may be in phase with the primary signals causing an exaggeration of those frequencies. Or, they can be out of phase which creates a cancelling or suck out of those frequencies. The tonality of the speaker changes as a result. In addition, these vibrations haphazardly slung about in the listening space crush detail and stomp all over spatial queues. Detail, focus and imaging all pay the price. And, yes, when things are too loud in a certain range of the music, it can have the sonic attribute of sounding "bright."
The application of Dynamat is a simple DIY operation. The Klipsch horns are held in place with machine screws with threaded inserts. Not much chance of damaging something or waddling out screw holes in wood. The mid connections are via a push in terminal and the tweeter is connected via spade connectors. I’d recommend taking photos of the connectors to eliminate the prospect of miswiring them. With a carton knife, you can cut strips of Dynamat and get after it. While the tweeter is out, I’d recommend snipping off the space connectors and direct silver solder the cables to the tweeter lugs before installing it back into the cabinet. This will add about 15 minutes total to the project. Yes, tweeter detail will audibly improve. The first time you fire up your "new" Klipsch speakers you will hear a warmth that you had not experienced before, with the bonus of added focus, space, and less listening fatique.
As far as voiding the warranty is concerned, I would place the chance of a driver failure at very close to zero. Warranty work, if needed involves Klipsch sending a new driver to the dealer, and the "defective" one sent back to Klipsch. If you bought these from a dealer, the chances are you’ll get a blessing on the upgrades. Rather than bring the entire speaker into the dealer, it is much simplier to provide them with the raw driver. And, when they get a replacement, they’ll hand it back to you. If you ordered them online, I’m pretty certain this would happen the same way. Packing up and shipping an entire speaker system for in-warranty service is impractical. But, my experience with the big Klipsch speakers is that they will hurt you before you can hurt them.
This does not negate placing attention on other elements of your system. This is just a good place to spend $10 with a notible improvement in sound quality.
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As a previous Naim owner I can tell you that Naim gear is very “gain rich” with their stuff. I owned the sn2 and an xs2 both with and without flat cap. I found it pairs well with laid back speakers ie older Vandersteen and harbeth etc tried with zu speakers and it will drive you out of the room. I don’t believe klipsch is bright rather very “mid forward”. Not a bad thing but I imagine the synergy is off there with the two brands having the same mid forward sound I can see you would have too much. Klipsch mates well with upstream gear that is softer. All your doing is balancing the wild down to flat and neutral…ie you would have the opposite problem if you paired soft spoken speakers with a lazy tube amp..basically if you like the Naim, change speakers, if you like the speakers, change the amp..good luck!
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Many years ago I borrowed a Naim integrated to try and get a sense of what the Naim prat was all about. My dealer had warned me that it was not going to be a good match with the Klipsch KLF’s. He was absolutely right. I had several friends listen and they all agreed that the synergy wasn’t very good. Definitely try a different amp or integrated if you like your speakers
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Thinking about Allen Eaton amp, Auralic Altair G1.1 with my Klipsch Forte IVs
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At present, I’ve got the SVS SB-2000 pro sub, Raven Blackhawk tube integrated, Audiolab 6000 CDT CD transport, Nuprime 9 SE DAC, Klipsch Lascsla II, Tellurium Q Black II speaker cables, (same for interconnects), U-turn turntable with homemade suspension platform w/ ortofon blue cartridge, Cambridge Audio phono preamp, Cayin headphone amp with focal elects XLR connected directly to DAC…Synergy is everything, trial and error.
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Yes it’s a personal journey for sure. What components did you end up with?
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I’ve owned klipsch Lascala Ii’s for several years. As I’ve changed components, the Klipsch have radically transformed in sound quality. Interconnects, amps, and cartridges all created significant effects. Once too bright, then too soft…they reflect up stream colorations. Several times I concluded the klipsch’s by nature had a certain inherent sound profile only to realize later it was other influences coloring the speakers. Putting them recently upon insulating rolling dollies once again so dramatically effected the clarity that I no longer make any statements about what these speakers bring to the sound per se. I believe every speaker does have its own characteristics but these have flipped from one emphasis to another so as to make generalizations worthless.
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First mistake right there , reading ASR. The ONLY thing they care about are measurements. Me? I care about sound.
I had Quicksilver Mid Monos with my Forte IV and they sound great. In fact i had a preamp that cost about 4 x as much driving them and they were not one bit out of place . They sounded better than they ever had . Value proposition is high with Quicksilver.
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Doing a lot of research, I think the update they did on this forte speaker really messed it up. Everyone so check out the review in Audio Science Review. After seeing it I really can’t take the chance. So far it’s the Quicksilver.
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Current Heritage Klipsch speakers are anything but bright. If these are giving you trouble, look to your room or associated equipment.
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I've had a pair of Forte iv's for about six months teamed with a Mojo Audio Evo DAC, PS Audio transport, Don Sachs pre, and First Watt F7. I do not think that they are bright with this setup.
Klipsch speakers can provide a lot of dynamics and a "live presence" - maybe that can sound bright?
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After my third pair of Klipsch speakers…now Heresy 4’s… I can’t think any speaker sounds as good. Efficiency is the major player. 96 db sensitivity. Wow! I think they sound great…Spring-Summer solid state ( Marantz 2226 b), and my (Cary Rocket 88 ROM-CAD) tube amp Fall-Winter… (keeping the Mancave cooler and warmer)!
I find adequacy in the Node, (streamer), and Integra CD Player. With streamers, ask yourself: can you really hear the difference?
But with Klipsch…you WILL hear a difference. People can’t believe horny midrange works, but it does. Best to keep your amp low powered( 20-40 WPC), and play low volumes to really HEAR the Klipsch difference…cause they can be loud if you need to be ANYTIME!
Save money on Amp power, get decent cables that run a medium price range, and insulate your cables picking up PVC rubber insulation at Home Depot.
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No mention of room layout/treatment (or lack of) it.
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Just looked at the crossovers in my original Forte's and the components are wired directly to the terminals. There are no metal strips. I seemed to remember that from when I installed new caps several years ago but had to look again.
Nothing new here but a brightness problem depends much on the recording where the highs were likely boosted for better sound from a boom box.
Nothing expensive in this room. A Bellari tube preamp at the listening position into long homemade cables to a Dayton Audio APA-150, which is just like the Emotiva look alike. It sits between the speakers so speaker cables are short which I think sounds better.
Its a cheap amp with the big power transformer which is crucial for decent class a/b sound. I don't want to spend more money but I don't begrudge those who do.
Got the speakers for $500 from CL. Doesn't have to be a super expensive hobby for enjoyable sound.
I do like the way the Forte's sound at low levels, which is how I listen. Should also mention that I have high frequency hearing loss as an old guy but that means nothing sounds too bright. Like having an equalizer in your head.
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Dynamat works wonders ( you can also use Peel & Seal roofing repair tape ). Stop the resonance and vibration !
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@silverfoxvtx1800 , Thanks for telling us about your system.
The Forte IV is a pretty great speaker. Before I would move on and conclude it's not your taste, I'd try a different front end amp and possibly source.
Like @mrmojo above, I have tried Fortes and Cornwall IVs with Primaluna and Elekit 300b amongst others. I think you may owe it to yourself to try different amps.
One combination I had that was sublime was using a Schitt Freya in front of the Elekit or a Carver Crimson 275.
I'm a bit of a tube head, BUT, I was shocked to hear how good the CWIVs sounded with a Marantz KI Ruby integrated.
How loud do you like to listen/drive? If you don't listen very loud, SET amps can be spellbinding. Yet, tossing a good hunk of power at such efficient speakers can sometimes be unnecessary, not better, or other times amazing. It just depends.
I would play around with stuff. But that's just me. In today's world, you can go out and scoop up something just to try it.
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@silverfoxvtx1800 In my experience the McIntosh amps (and integrated amps) with the autoformer output stages tend to sound smoother. I have a pair of Focal Sopra No2's which can sound very bright, but being driven by a McIntosh amp (with autoformers), they really pair well. One of my audiophile buddies came over for a listen and remarked to me that he loved that McIntosh "tube sound"...
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Luxman 590AXII driving my Forte IV's. Didn't care for all-tube (pre and amp w/2A3's); for me much better w/Class A solid-state. Augmented w/RELS/510 and never bright unless the recording is.
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@silverfoxvtx1800 The EQ is a Technics SH-8020. It was build in the 80s and works really well. I bought this particular one because it has sufficiently many bands so I can adjust just the right ones.
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My klipsch forte 4 just arrived last week. From 1 hour to 10 hours of listening, it is not bright for me. It has about the same "brightness" level comparing to my other system (Luxman 595A, JBL4349, mixture of furutech and inakustic power cables, speaker cables and interconnects, etc). For the Forte, I have Fluxion intergrated 300B pushpull with black treasure Shuguang, Sylvania tubes. I do not think the Forte speakers are bright. As Carlsbad mentioned, check out your cables. I think having TWL speaker cables help in my case (I recommend TWL to reduce "brightness" in this case for speakers and power cables). 300B definitely would help. The rest of cables are the cheap $1 cables from my TV's (run out of cables).
I hope this helps.
PS: 8W is not enough power to drive the Forte as I noticed. My room is 10x12. 15W is perfect for most listening cases. If you look for a tube amp, try at least 15W to get it covered. I have heard 1W-2W recommended by other folks. This is true for low level listening.
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Ya I can’t figure it out also…lol
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@arcticdeth
The mk IV version of the Heritage line of Klipsch are not harsh. I own the Heresy IV and can listen to them all day long...
Another strength of the Heresy IV, anyway, is that it still sounds dynamic and expansive at even very low volumes.
I have used them with a Pioneer Elite avr (totl from about 2005), an Onkyo Integra receiver from 1986, and a Marantz Ruby amp. The Heresy IV sounds amazing with all of them, but the best pairing, not surprisingly, is the Marantz. The Elite though also works well, and the Integra is a workhouse and good too.
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@silverfoxvtx1800 - Assuming the "no picture" comment was directed to me, I do have a picture but don't know how to get it into a post. If you know, please explain. Thanks
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I have Forte IVs driven by an Elekit 300b tube amp, and they're absolutely balanced and dynamic at any volume. When driven by the Rogue Sphinx Class D hybrid they are more treble forward, so systems matching is critical. I demoed the Fortes and Cornwalls with PrimaLuna integrateds and that was also an excellent match for the Klipshes.
One thing that was an issue was choice of speaker cable - when trying to drive these with a cable made from Mogami wire I found that the Fortes sounded etched, thin, and too bright. Using a run of 12 gauge Belden OFC speaker cable provides a full, balanced sound. I assume this is the combined capacitance/inductance values of Mogami not playing well with my system.
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I had problems with bright sound with various speakers until I treated the room. No more brightness hearing Pioneer stand-mounts, Monitor Audio floorstanders, Vandersteen floorstanders, or B&W floorstanders.
Problem solved.
Hope that can help you too.
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Hello chmaiwald,
what EQ component do you have?
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Fortes with Parasound…heavenly
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I have the Cornwall IVs and run them with a tube amp. Even after tube rolling I found them to be a bit too bright - the problem I had with them from the beginning. A few weeks ago I bought an EQ and wow does it make a difference. I‘m bringing up the lower frequencies up just a bit (63Hz, 125Hz and 250 Hz), between 0,5 and 1dB, so not much at all, and the result is astonishing. The sound is so much fuller - and surprisingly the highs don‘t bother me a bit anymore. Sometimes I even bring them up a tiny bit.
So maybe that‘s an idea worth taking into consideration with the Fortes too.
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Sorry to hear you're getting less than great results. I have had the Forte IV since they were launched. I used them with a pair of Quicksilver Mid Mono amps and they sounded great. 40 w Push-pull, plenty of power. In my medium room I barely used a few watts. I switched gears and had a 300b amp built, sounds amazing to me.
I tried my brother's 200 w Acurus amp..... not a good match. Agressive , kind of in your face. I believe it is a synergy thing with these speakers
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dweller Thanks for the info I definetly will make the change and report back after I do some listening. Installing the iso GaiaIi made a good amount of difference.
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You probably didn’t take a picture of what you did?
This what customer service said..
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@fmer - I fashioned them from copper pipe. Later, I learned about some copper anode strips (on Amazon) which would be MUCH easier to work with.
You need some tin snips (or a break press) to make the actual strips then drill a 9/64 hole and slide it over the binding post screw. you can use the existing stainless steel strip as a model.
Another alternative is to find a copper "ring" terminal with a small enough hole and solder this directly on to the wire which goes to the crossover (eliminating the need for the strip). I couldn’t find a terminal with anything smaller than 1/4 hole.
Note: Using the ring terminal probably voids the warranty. I saved all the strips so I can replace if new owner wants them. Also, the (stock) Fortes sound good at low volume but were melting my ears when cranked up.
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Yes that sounds like the thing to do but countless posts on this thread have people not having this problem rite out of the box…
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I have found that horns made from plastic or metal can ring enough that some people hear them as bright or brash. Any brand of horn mid or tweeter can have this ringing. I put damping material like Dynamat on the backs of these horns with great results. No other changes made and the bright bite is gone.
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The system is simple which maybe was a bad idea, the Naim Uniti Atom a two streamer,dac and 40 watts hooked to the forte IVs.
THE room is 12ft wide and I sit about 13 ft from everything, carpet with lots of my wife’s quilts on the walls…
I try to listen to everything except jass and country…
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I have La Scalas powered by a McIntosh tube preamp and amp setup. No brightness at all to my ears.
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@silverfoxvtx1800 , Can you tell us about your system components, room, and listening preferences?
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I have a pair of Forte IV’s that was connected to an NAD M33 Int Amp and found the sound to be thin and bright. I then was able to acquire a McIntosh MA352 hybrid integrated amp and it changed everything! I found that positioning the speakers made accentuated the bass and balanced everything out I added a KEF KC62 sub and it’s now an incredible system.
Using a Bluesound Node feeding a Chord Mscaler to Chord Qutest.
This system is in a small room 14’x12’ home office and it’s where I spend a lot of time and listen at low levels most of the day and then crank it up. I listens to Jazz, electronic, classical and a bunch of other genres
I have another more upscale system and the forte IV’s w my current set up are so pleasing
Hope you find the pieces to make you love them
ps-I was never a Klipsch fan
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I have La Scalla’s and found Cambridge Edge Monos and an Edge NQ to be a good combination. I do have a Canton sub for anything below 65Hz. I find them to be anything but bright, and a joy to listen to.
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I have La Scalla’s and found Cambridge Edge Monos and an Edge NQ to be a good combination. I do have a Canton sub for anything below 65Hz. I find them to be anything but bright, and a joy to listen to.
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