viggen, latest i have now heard is alfa won't return 'til 2010. don't hold yer breath! ;~) i now have two milano's & the gtwe6; the 164 was totaled w/210k on the ticker & still goin' strong. god rest it's soul... may it give it's parts so that other alfa's shall live. ;~)
dug seed in |
And not so strangely, after four years, Krell's still suck.
But then, some people think CD players are inherently better than LP's.
There's no dealing with that. I agree - synergy.
But in all likelihood without a Krell. |
I find it interesting whenever there is a long thread about Krell,Bose is always mentioned. |
Now that's a rhetorical statement if I've ever read one = P. |
In four years some peoples opinions have changed, while others seem to be the same. |
almost 4 years later and still waiting for them damn Alfas to arrive... |
We can only hope that Fiat does it right and are prepared to commit to re-building Alfa over a number of years. I really hope they are in it for the long haul. There are a lot of misconceptions among the general public regarding our beloved marque, but I think there is enough pent up demand among Alfisti to get things off to a good start. Your Guilia sounds swell -- with the 2 liter and the disc brakes you have the best of both worlds. Happy Holidays. |
Was in Italy last year and drove the 156 Sportwagon. Gotta have one with the V-6 and a stick! GM, as you know, has a stake in the company and is rumored to be planning a stateside ALFA comeback within two years through Buick dealers. I heard the same thing from ALFA concessionaires in Milan and Rome. So the story goes, they would re-enter the market with a brand-new GTV and Spider, and follow immmediately with the 146, 147, 156 and 166. How much of this is bilge, is open to discussion. One of the last discussions I had with ALFA people in California (when the marque was fazing out US operations) concerned why ALFA was withdrawing from the states. The common answer seemed to be poor marketing and uneven supply, questionable reliability and parts availability, and some rather undesirable looking cars. The latest ALFA lineup suggests they would see some healthy sales stateside, assuming prices weren't out of sight. The GTV can be had in Europe with a Twinspark 2.0L for as little as $23K and goes up from there to around $32 for the V-6 w/6-speed, leather, etc., etc. The new 147 2-door hatch with the Twinspark and mods is a nasty package--a real Q-boat. In the meantime, our '63 Spider with the much-modded 2.0L, close-ratio Colotti, much uprated suspension and 4-wheel discs must suffice. |
sedond: i can certainly understand a bmw site going down in flames. i, too, find many other bimmer owners insufferable. as for me: i bought my first, a '69 2002, the day our first son was born. cost $3800. i've owned 7 since then and have loved each for the fun they provide to driving, whether on the daily commute or a trip through our state's mountains (colo). that first son of ours, BTW, owns a 2000 beetle (which his wife drives on her short commute) AND an '89 bmw 528i. he also inherited from me a love for audio, purchasing this year his first accuphase (integrated) and avalons. i'm very proud to say, "like father, like son." (our 2d son is cool, too, but just starting up the management ladder at qwest, saving all his $$ for an engagement ring--hooray!!). best regards. |
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You boys have TIN EARS and are STUPID, STUPID, STUPID! everyone with half a brain knows that those little engines have NO BOTTOM END. I mean, you might as well just turn off the whole left side of your graphic equilizer, AND I MEAN ALL 10 OF THEM! Those little cars are just SIBILANCE ON THE HIGHWAY. IDIOTS! EVERYONE KNOWS A BIG BLOCK OLDS IS THE ONLY WAY GO! I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. ROCKET 455. |
And you told me that the Pantera Digest was "redneck"...;>) |
cornfedboy, the alfa digest is actually quite a civilized mailing list - sure, ruffled feathers once in a while, but never anything like that which takes place here. the pantera-digest is actually a bit worse than the alfa-digest, but still doesn't hold a candle to what goes on here. the bmw digest, on the other hand, which used to be run by the same guy who runs the alfa digest, was shut down by the guy cuz it got so bad, so i've been told by those who know... i wonder if it's cuz bmw's attract status seekers as well as enthusiasts, similar to hi-end audio... hmmm.... ;~) regards, doug |
do you find it as interesting as i that posts re: automobiles on an audio site draw none of the wrath manifested by threads on krell/mit, etc.? perhaps all of us (excluding david99 and carl_eber) should join the alfa group, where we could discuss audio without hostility and intimidation. just a thought. |
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my 164, w/~165k miles on the clock, has prolly been the worst, maintenance-wise, but it's still not bad. and, the only non-normal-wear failures have usually been parts that have *bosch* written on 'em. the gtwe6, w/150k, has been amazingly trouble-free. so was the milano verde, sold w/145k, cuz i found another one w/only 66k... doug |
It is fair to say that there have been some reliability problems with Alfas, it all depends on how long your memory is - even in recent years, like a 164 I had where the switches needed to be cleaned or replaced every few years. But mechanically they have been marvellous from both a reliability and performance point of view for several years. Right now, with Alfa at last buying in from other parts of Europe, they are as reliable as anything out there. IMO their biggest problem has been the lack of good technical backup around the world, but even that is pretty good these days. |
hi cornfedboy, my alfas have been no more unreliable than any other cars i've owned, which have included toyota, datsun, volvo, suzuki, to name a few. they are a lot *more* reliable than the bmw's my friend has owned over the past 15 years... ;~) doug |
i've always enjoyed the alpha style, with some exceptions, but have steered away from purchasing one (or 2 or 3) 'cuz i could never afford the retainer demanded by the always-there backseat mechanic. ;>) |
And I would like that Spyder. Sometimes I think the most thrilling auditory event is opening the throttle on the Alfa at about 90mph. |
Redkiwi, I am truly envious. A 156 (maybe a Selespeed) would be the perfect complement to our current Alfas. While I'm dreaming, let's add a 166 for the wife. As Dug says, we're not so patiently waiting for the forthcoming US Alfas and hoping they do us right. In the meantime, the GTV6 makes an excellent fast daily driver, the 69 GTV (big valve 1750, Ward & Dean, etc) is great for running the canyons and track days and the wife drives the hell out of the Spider. Obligiatory audio content: no sounds other than the glorious 1750 in the GTV, no sounds other than the magical V6 in the GTV6, Sony ES head unit, 10 disc changer and Soundstream refrence amp in the Spider. Dug, I used to have a 900 Desmo SS in the late 70's -- I am obviously envious of you, too. Happy Holidays mates! |
alas, redkiwi, fiat, in all their wisdom, feels north america is not worthy of the latest italian iron. (except ferrari, go figure...) but, i strongly prefer rwd - my one fwd alfa, the 164 (fiat's influence), was purchased only because they are awailable here at giveaway prices second-hand. there's a possibility of rwd models making it here in a couple years, tho - mite have to sell the pantera... ;~) regards, doug |
Hi Sedond and Jim. Three Alfas is truly impressive and am humbled with only two. My days of being my own mechanic in order to be able to afford commuting while indulging my eccentric taste in sports cars, are over. So I stick to the newer stuff, a 166 and a 156, between me and my wife - she was actually the one that led me towards Alfa and away from the 2-seaters that I used to have. |
hey jim, we can run but we can't hide, eh? :>) yule love that 3.0 in a gtwe6 - it works wonders in mine! ;~) gino, better sign up to the alfa-digest if ya haven't already done so - it's a wealth of info ok, here's minimal audio content: my daily driver gtwe6 (90 miles/day) doesn't even have a radio! my pantera has a 6-cd-changer w/cassette stereo - which i don't even know how to use - driving & audio don't mix - unless yer listening to the sound of a highly-tuned performance engine on boil... ;~) regards, doug. ps - jim, don't forget about my '78 ducati or my buell... :>) |
OK, my faith is restored with some people the understanding of different character among seemingly similar products. Yeah, I own three Alfas, too. So couldn't resist getting in on this. Dug, I'm starting to have a 3l built for the GTV6, this is about the last step for Il Mostro. Sedon is a man of so much "character" that he doesn't stop with Alfas, he has a Pantera, too. Has character or is a character? ;-) Better slip into the Nomex, I'm sure someone will object to the car references on this dying thread. After all this isn't Alfa Digest! |
I believe greed is more than just taking from others, it's taking more than that what you need. Like it or not, greed is one of the foundation of investing. The market drives on greed a.k.a day traders for it to growth. Don't you agree? |
you are to be commended. I have a singular '63 Giulia Spider carrying a blueprinted 2-liter in a most tastefully modified show car body. Rapid transit, indeed! E dolce! |
My portfolio is mostly in the Nasdaq exchange right now, and it was still up until yesterday, and I espect it to go up at least 100% in the coming year. I disagree that the word "greed" describes the investor's motivation. Greed implies a selfish desire to take from others, and this is not the investment model. |
hey redkiwi, as an owner of 3 alfas, yer a man i can really respect! :>) regards, doug |
Carl, I've got to disagree with you on this one. Sky high valuations in the market (or used to be in NASDAQ,s case) show that a lot of investors have been overcome by greed and speculation. BTW, I don't mean to suggest that this includes you. IMO, investing in anything is a gamble of sorts as one is trying to predict future events. In the NASDAQ case people who got in late combined high risk for a chance at low percentage gains - a recipe for disaster. They lost even if they didn't buy on margin. Check out gold and silver investments for medium risk with high possible percentage gains (>5:1 upside). This is true as they are trading as historical low values. Long dated silver call options look especially attractive (>10:1 upside). I agree that a small company like Krell must be doing something right to have survived this long. This in spite of being based out of a high tax location like Connecticut. |
Margin, it was a joke, and I have no margin account, that's only for gamblers. I like to invest my OWN money, not borrow someone else's to gamble away. Greed doesn't drive a real investor anyway....greed is for criminals. The desire to participate in commerce, and build a profitable portfolio is an honorable one, and I suspect that you missed that life-lesson a long time ago................No, I disagree that Krell is "just in it for the money". Who are you, their analyst? How could you possibly know what their profit margin is, or what their gross income is at any given time? Admit it, you just don't like Krell because it's a large manufacturer of solely highend equipment, and didn't get swallowed up by a conglomerate like Harman, the way Levinson did...and somehow you are jealous that you couldn't have a company of your own as nice as this one. Krell is sort of like Porsche, the last autonomous manufacturer of sports cars, THE WORLD OVER. Times got tough for them, and they still didn't need Fiat or Ford to bail them out (the way Ferrari and Jaguar did). They survived on their R&D, and always stayed in the black, even when per unit car sales went south in the late 80's. Krell is a solid company that builds quality products, and knocking them proves how petty and loathesome their know-nothing detractors are...at least for me it does. I've seen them for years, since long before the internet was popular. What is said here to discredit Krell, is noting that hasn't been said by hundreds of others over the last 15 years or so. None of you are saying anything new, and yet people still like their product. Go figure... |
Thanks Cornfedboy. My impression is that people object to the "character" of Krells as opposed to their quality (the latter being more obviously the case with of Bose), but the distinction may be difficult to maintain. I am actually more a fan for Alfa than I am for BMW (again for character reasons, not for quality) - but it is hard to fault Rolexes on any level except perhaps their bulk (we are talking character again). But I do not have your level of experience with Krell and so bow to your superior knowledge on this point. |
Carl, you're partially right in your profiling of me. I do work on wall street but not as a high paid broker. I am just a administrator that makes those margin/house calls for the money hungry brokers. There are too many instances when greed takes over and the investors refuses to take their profits hoping to make more. Most of them think that if they can just hang on a little longer than tell make even more money. Guess what?..those people lost all their money as fast as they made it. And you sir, if you've made as much as you said you did and didn't sell it already. I you'll be hearing from me or someone else like me....as for Krell..their products are nice, but don't you feel that they are in it for the money. They turn and burn out more models more than Hondas. Bottomline, I think most dislike Krell because of what it represents, but I am sure all would own one if the price is cheap enough. |
Yep, Tswhitsel, I do respect Trelja's posts (and threads), and I may have come across as a bit defensive toward you-- sorry-- hope you will post more, and maybe even on the thread "Who Are U". You seem to have a thoughtful and articulate style of writing, IMO. Redkiwi's above post makes as much sense as any I've seen/heard re: Krell's "odd" reputation (at least on this site). Their reputation is certainly not because they make a poor product, although like any other, taste and opinion(s)vary. Cheers. Craig. |
redkiwi: as you know, i think your posts are generally first rate. as a longtime owner of both bmw's and rolex's, however, i resent their connection to krell, a product i've listened to extesively but would never own. cheers, anyway! |
Dekay, you sound very practicle with your set up. Since you like to listen to music and serve at the same time, have you consider using the PC as a source? I saw some new D/A sound card which was featured in Sept. issue of Stereophile, but have not read through the article in details. Has any heard anything about this product? How do you all feel about the PC eventually becoming your one source of music? |
Hi Margin: Yes, I have wondered about that mainly to download/play music samples from BMG and Columbia. We do not listen to the radio and I have found it hard to select new poular music by unknowns and know that I am missing out on a lot of stuff that I would enjoy. I have a patchcord to hook the mini system up to the PC, but have not plugged it in yet. I gave the old computer speakers away when I moved it to the bedroom as we only used them to listen to musical greeting cards. I was just thinking of using one of the downloadable software programs offered at the sites to start, but do have three extra drive slots in the CPU for adding a zip or whatever drive that would be needed for a more elaborate setup. However, my main goal for this little listening station is to incorporate a small inexpensive SET amp (like the Decware Zen or a Bottlehead) into the system just to have something different than the other sytem, and since the room is small it should sound pretty good. Even the little Polk's would probably work under these conditions, but the little DIY planer speakers look like a real trip and would be a cheap and fun project. There are people at this site that have invested thousands in music computer software which is not my intention. |
Dekay, you sound very practicle with your set up. Since you like to listen to music and serve at the same time, have you consider using the PC as a source? I saw some new D/A sound card which was featured in Sept. issue of Stereophile, but have not read through the article in details. Has any heard anything about this product? How do you all feel about the PC eventually becoming your one source of music? |
Addendum: I meant my wife's massive collection of cassette tapes, not CD's (whish they were CD's, cause if they were I would be listening to Mink DeVille, Cadillac Walk" in the living room right now). |
Hi Margin: I have our second mini system hooked up at the computer station now, soon to be set up for near field listening (all I need is a pair of 30" stands). Before, the computer was set up in the living room with the main system ($2500.00 total for the whole ball of wax -w- some of the items purchased used). I am not hooked on the sweet spot and always try to set the better system up so that it sounds its best in a general seating area. We are talking about 10% off axis at the most for the extremes of the entire listening area. If I feel like doing critical listening or when I am auditioning something new at home I just move a chair into a near field arrangement for that purpose. Some speakers like Maganapans and my old Castle's sound good to me slightly off axis, maybe because thay are a little bright for my taste to start with. Also interesting for near field listening at the computer are some little DIY planer speakers at the Decware web site that I would like to try to build at some point and use with a flea watt amp that I would run the mini system through. I at one point ran the mini system through my Musical Fidelity amp and the cheap little five disk CD player sounded pretty good. The tape decks sounded well, like tape decks. I also tweaked the mini system with Vibrapods, Kimber Kable and some sound damping (sticky) sheets that my mechanic gave me installed to the inside of the CD tape player module The speakers were replaced with Polk Rt-15's that were being given away locally when the new version came out. The system itself is a Sony MHC-NX1 that is very handy for my wife's old massive collection of CD's that I wouln't bother playing on the main system due to their background noise and general lack of high fidelity. |
Garfish...sorry to have offended. You obviously hold Trelja in very high esteem and feel the need to come to his defense. But you miss my point. I have been a serious audiophile for 25 years and I do not see the value of threads like this. That's my opinion. I regularily read numerous audio publications and the only place I see all of this Krell bashing, not to mention the bashing of several other well regarded aduio companies, is on Audiogon. Cornfedboy said it well...buzzard words indeed! Krell and other companies like them would not be where they are today if they were making junk, and while it may not be to everyones taste it is obviously quality equipment. If there is something seriously wrong with a company's product or really bad customer service then that is something worth knowing about, but that is not the case here. You may have great respect for Trejla and value his opinions, which is fine by me, but I find nothing particularily intelligent about this post and feel it only adds fuel to an argument that does nothing to further the enjoyment of this hobby. And Craig, I do on occasion post an opinion on Audiogon, but it is usually in response to a specific question about some audio gear I have had personal experience with and never to bash it. Even if I did post all the time would that necessarily make me any more credible to you or anyone else. I think it only would if you happened to agree with my opinions. And I have not judged you or any others based on the number of postings on Audiogon. By the way, and for what it's worth, I have never owned any Krell equipment (I own a pair of BEL amps,a Modulus 3A preamp, a Audio Logic DAC, and an EAR phono preamp), but I have auditioned some and thought it was very good. |
Margin, you are one to talk about showing off money. "Margin Call", an obvious bragadocia, that you either own many stocks, or are a broker, or are pretending same. I should call myself "got it all", and then I would be like you. I'm just getting started in the stock market. Is a gain of 5000% in a single day a good time to sell that stock? I need to know, because I now have more money than sense, and am contacting Bill Gates to ask if he'll shine my shoes for me.... |
Dekay, how can you type sitting in front of your computer, while trying to listen to music at the same time? Wouldn't you be out of the "sweet spot" of you system set up...which we all have spent too much money trying to achieve in the first place? Sounds ironic to me. |
The way I see it is that Krell is well marketed and "expensive", and for any audiophile reading the ads and reviews, Krell is in your face to the extent that you are under pressure to aspire to own a Krell. A lot of the marketing is just about that - getting new audiophiles to aspire to a Krell so you catch them later when they are ready to buy. This is not dissimilar to branding of BMW, Rolex etc. The flipside is that the pressure to aspire to it can also cause people to prefer to "bag" it rather than aspire to it. This polarised reaction is typical of heavily marketed products. It is true that some of the motivation to "bag" Krell is to make people that cannot afford it feel better about this fact, but it is not the only reason. If Krell was merely rubbish, this would not result in the emotional negative feelings about it. If Krell was merely rubbish, it would engender the same feelings as audiophiles have for Bose. The fact that many audiophiles have clearly not only aspired to Krell but also like it means that Krells must sound OK too. If I was Krell, I would be pretty happy about the polarised response - far better that than a luke-warm one. |
I can type and listen at the same time. I just do it to the tempo of the music. I wonder if it would be harder with a "high priced" stereo? |
Audiogon chat forum is for chatting about audio related "stuff"-- not for listening to music or discussing apes, IMO. I own no Krell equipment, but considerd their FPB 200 before buying McCormack DNA-2DX. Krell is certainly a successful well respected high end audio manufacturer and has always been well reviewed in the audio press. Likje Trelja, I'm just curious as to why at the mere mention of the name Krell, it brings out Krell haters out of the woodwork and from under the floorboards. Craig. |
I think everyone has a good point because everyone is right and we all should at least respect that. All these postings are just opinions and nothing more. You cannot question why another posted his opinion because after all you're only posting your opinion about their posting. Don't read it if you don't like it. It's American and we all have the right and the previledge to state our opinions. Now that I have gotten that off my chest, what do I think off all this? Well..I once saw a special on the Discovery Channel about the apes civilization and was intrique that the dominant male apes often hump the other less dominant male apes not to demonstrate their sexuality but to show their power and control within their community. Scientist now have learned our society shows similar behaviours. They discovered that us male behave the same way. Although we don't demonstrate physical humping, we show this behavior through owning expensive assets. This is how we let other males know what we have more money (a.k.a. power) than them. In conlusion, I think some of us are here in the forum to show off our what we own (how many times have we heard a new thread starting with "I own or I have or I recently purchased"), to seek advices, to show off our expertise, and to initiate in conflicts. I wonder if some of you Krell haters dislike Krell period or dislike Krell because it's not worth the price? You've got to be lying if you would take a Krell for $100. Perhaps the real question is maybe we are all in this forum because we don't have anything better to do than to talk to a bunch of strangers. Shouldn't you all be listening to your high priced stereo? |
Garfish, I thank you profoundly for your kind words and compliments. Actually, it is you who serves as a great role model on what we members can aspire to be. Your posts have always garnered the respect and admiration(from many people) that your intelligence and personality bring to this site. You have read me right. Why is it Krell? That's the point of this thread Twhitsel. My goal is that through this thread we can come to understand why it is that Krell has become THE high end manufacturer that is capable of such venomous debate. The history of Mark Levinson(the company) products has followed a parallel path to Krell. Nobody jumps on Levinson owners(although they usually don't go around saying they are the sole bearers of audio wisdom). And what of the products that are REALLY different? You don't see people attacking SET amplifiers, and they are much farther away from what has been the standard than Krell. Why not attack Bob Carver? His Lightstar/Sunfire products certainly follow a more different pathway than Krell. What about Triangle? Their speakers break as many of the "rules" as any mass-fi product. While I like with some designs, and don't care for others, I don't lose my cool when someone mentions a name. Who cares? If someone uses a product other than what I like, my only hope is that they enjoy it. |
I bought a used Classe Audio Ca 400 from here for just under $3000.00. I used it as a two channel for a while. I liked it so much that I saved up for a couple of years and bought another one. They can be run in two channel or can be bridged. It is a great match for Sonus Faber with tones of power. Its very open, smooth, and images unbeleavably well just like Sonus Faber. It is also the most transparent amp I have ever heard. Good luck in the search!! |
Perfectimage, thanks for your reply. I was wondering whether no one would care. Anyway, looks great, but a bit out of my league. Anything around $3000? Integrated is fine with me, too. Signum costs one quater of Guarneri. I am looking for something in the league. I appreciate your kindness. Ken |
