I recently finished off a basement room that is 24.5' x 22.5' x 8'. My beloved Tyler Linbrook Monitor Signatures sound as wonderful as ever there provided I reign in the volume control somewhat, otherwise the SEAS Excel 7" drivers start to protest. I'd really like to find some speakers that wont give up too much in quality, especially in the areas of treble refinement and in imaging, but will play loud without strain. The few horn systems I've heard sounded peaky in the treble to me, but perhaps there are some which don't. Suggestions will be gratefully received.
Parameters: For music I am into classical, opera, female vocalists like Eva Cassidy and Jennifer Warnes, movie sound tracks, shows, golden oldies, but no heavy rock or metal. Power is via a 50 watt/channel tube amp but that could be changed out. Budget: on the order of up to $3K new or used.
Don't know those Tylers, but the ones I heard were 3 way monitors . Firstly it's not inherently a true monitor character to play at high SPLs. Your room isn't that huge there are an infinite number of speakers that will sound good at 90-100 decibels. What volume were you trying to achieve? Get some big floorstanders with a big amp and I am sure you will find nirvana. Especially ones that have self powered woofers. For regular speakers try the bigger Paradigms in that price range. Not my cup o'tea the bass seems to get a little loose. Or even better try the older NHT foor stander I think they were the 4s, they are more contolled and have better tonal balance. If you need high efficiency there is only one speaker apparently that reproduces sound so close to the original signal that it will require a very long period to acquire a taste for it and you may need a good sub. They have been mentioned so often recently that you know which ones are they are. They are only real speakers you can buy. The rest are miserable excuses for transducers. BTW you may still need a bigger amp and upgrade your sources as well but only if you don't get the only perfect speakers.
Lets see Tyler Signature Monitor, thats Ty's MTM design, W18.T25/W18. I have the Seas Thor, same speaker. Room is 20X30 cathedral ceiling, open to hall ways on all sides, If i play my reference cds, Mississippi Blues, New Orleans Jazz, Can blow the roof off. Put it this way, the neighbors will complain. Amp "40" watt Jadis. As you know the watt thing is relative. So I agree with the above 2 comments, its not the speakers. However I will concede some beaming at high volume with the seas'. But the purpose of these drivers were intended to reproduce music with clear, clean, super high resolution= fidelity, with dynamics and separations of the 3 main fq's, bass, mids, highs. All objectivers are met with excellence. Now as to playing super loud, it may fall short on that. But not sure if any speaker plays loud and maintains those qualities mentioned. I mean if you really want loud and keep to those dynamics, buy a Jadis DA60. There objective met and you get to keep your Ty;ers. I listen at 1/4th- 1/3rd vol and am completely satisfied. I use to goa friends house and hear music, he'd paly his Audio resaerch VT200 and pre/Mirage 1's, and Talon Khorus LOUD. I couldn't stand it, what suffering.
Sounds familiar. I too have a big room and struggled for a solid year with limited volume thinking it was my speakers. It was only after I changed amps from a 60 watt tubed amp to SS monoblocks that the speakers properly loaded the room and their full potential was heard. In my opinon use the money to upgrade the amps- you've got a great pair of speakers.
If you like what you've already got, then keep it. By adding an electronic crossover and a sub ( or subs ), you can get the best of both worlds. You not only take the strain off of both the amp and the speakers by limiting their low frequency bandwidth and the associated power requirements, but will also improve the dynamic range and overall frequency extension of the system. You should be able to do this quite easily for the amount specified. Sean >
If you like your amp, try some Zu Druids...60 day money back guarantee. I have Acoustic Zen Adagios that do not ever seem to run out of steam however they are not as efficient as the Zu's. I will be getting some Druids soon for my 2nd system however the Adagios are SOOOO refined they are firmly my reference. These a 2 routes to the same level of joy. My 2 cents and yes, I'm ready fro the flames.
I had demo-ed a 40 watt tube amp with my Seas, and couldn't push the dynamics of the speaker. The Seas needs really heavy duty power trans in tube amps with KT90's. Like my JOR. The DA30 would be super! Remember not all tube amps are built the same.
Switch to a solid state amp and try a pair of VMPS RM40's that can be had for around $3k used. VMPS are very efficient and have a huge sound stage and window rattling bass. I love my Zu Definitions; they get very loud and your 40 watts of tube power is more than enough with the Definition's 101db and internal amp controlling the four, 10 inch wooofers on the back of each speaker.
"I'm ready fo the flames" Ok I've got the best why would I want Druids? Have the Seas, a driver in development for decades. I think the danes got it right. Vandersteen is still working on "improvements". I've heard Vandersteens, not bad, in fact maybe the best I've heard in recent yrs,. Far better than Spendor8's. But they don't hold up well to Seas.
Your speakers have a sensitivity of 92db at one meter. If you were sitting 12 feet away that would translate into 83db at the sitting position with approzimately 2 watts since this is a 4ohm speaker. At 32 watts of power the sould level at your seat would be 95db. Your amp probably delivers more into 4ohms and I would guess clips gently in the mid 70 watt range into four ohms. Giving you at least 98db of volume at your seat. 98db is very loud. You couldn't stand it at that level very long. Most people actually listen in the mid 80's range. Your amp is fine. Don't worry about that. Since you love your Linbrooks I would suggest you buy the Linbrook bass modules from Tyler. You could get them to match your monitors and the pair sell for $2,400. That would relieve the strain on your monitors and give you much higher sound levels in the bass range. They would look great, everything would match asthetically and you would get the sound pressure level you wanted.
Bartok, I should've known it would be you who would cut and paste your Danish national pride. The Seas are excellent drivers and no one will dispute that. Implementation and crossovers are the only complaint I have ever heard anyone make regarding them.
Tyler does do an excellent job with them as do many other manufacturers. I've owned a couple of pairs of Tyler speakers and I like Tyler and enjoyed the speakers immensely....so much so that I began to want more.
Your blanket statement however implies that the decades that the Danes have in driver development translates into near perfection, which is not the case. That is only about a 3rd of the way home ignoring design, implementation and crossover design. Your Seas MTM design taking D'Appolito's design is likely a fabulous monitor but even D'Appolito would concede that is hardly the best. It is however very simple to make and its inherent weaknesses are covered by many factors, one of which is that the Seas drivers are good at what they are good at and the crossover is not difficult.
There are so many good drivers out there now and you appear to automatically dismiss them because they are not Seas. That is a bias you possess that EVERYONE on Audiogon is aware of. If someone built a MTM Seas with KT90's sticking out the top, you would endorse them immediately without having heard them. I'll admit that I have my biases too. I'm kindof partial to imtegrateds and Cary CD players. Each time I move for my work I tend to get new equipment because my wife is unwilling to allow me to treat a room properly, so i must "tune" the new room by plugging equipment in until I find something I like....again.
I do not and never have owned Vandersteens and yet, I have listened to the Quattros and the Quattro Woods and "considering they are still working on improvements", they have done a fabulous job. Seas millenium and other tweeters are fine specimens of the art and many top notch designers utilize them although most of those designers have them modified to their specifications. (Same goes for the Scanspeak revelator) Why do they do that? Don't they realize Bartokfan uses them stock in a kit he bought off the internet?
All jokes aside, each of us appreciates something different in our speakers and I am glad you enjoy your Seas setup. I enjoy my Acoustic Zen Adagio setup and I enjoyed my Zu Tone setup that I recently sold to free up funds for a Druid purchase. I liked my B&W 802 d's, I was just unwilling to completely adapt my tube bias to their solid state needs for power.
Everyone out here likes what they like and NOBODY IS WRONG! You however seem to answer each question posed on these forums with the patt answer of "well, a Jadis amp with KT90's will solve your problem if you will just consider a Cayin front end and maybe....oh...objectively a Seas MTM will do the trick". I am glad you like your setup and I hope everyone takes the advice they receive here with a grain of salt. And, to answer your question, why would you want Druids? You don't, the recommendation was for Beemerrider as a suggestion to his question on his budget. If he had said he had a $20,000 budget, I probably would have suggested Marten Design Coltranes or some other speaker out there that I have actually heard and was impressed with.
One last plea Bartokfan ( I believe I can speak for a few fellow Audiogoners on this 1 point), please stop hawking your speakers and Tyler's in the same sentence and context, I believe it turns some people off on Ty's products. I like Tyler and want him to do well and you do not have Tyler speakers and you may believe you are helping him, but I believe otherwise. Enjoy the hobby and warm regards.
Find something that you can bi-amp and use the tubes for the upper end and buy yourself an inexpensive powerhouse for the bass (Adcom, Parasound or Rotel are a few)
I did this with Innersound ISIS and they played loud and didn't lose the imagery or soundstage
Ghasley, An excellent commentary on BF's constant interjection in threads his poorly thoughtout comments about his JOR's, Thors, KT88's, KT90's, and Seas drivers.
I believe your last paragraph expresses why I'm so turned off by BF's comments regarding Tyler's speakers. I'm a Tyler owner. I'm very happy with them. But, if I were doing research on them and happened upon BF's comments I'd take a real hard look - I'm not into equipment marketed by the use of shills.
Unfortunatly since BF is highly unlikely to take anyone's advise, I think we can only do as Audiofeil has implied and actually does himself, that is challenge each his posts, lest he actually influences someone new to the board who is seeking serious observations or recommendations.
Thanks to everyone who has taken time out to respond so far. There are some very thoughtful suggestions here. I should have pointed out initially that subwoofering is not a practical option for me in this room, although it's a great idea otherwise.
I think Bartokfan is trying to be helpful but his bias is profound.
Beemerrider, Forgot to mention my experience with Tylers. Sign me up to the more power camp. I've 3 tube amps available just now, 40, 80, and 160 wt's (EL34's, KT88's, and 6550's for BF's benefit - no KT99's, although I've got a dozen NOS's in the drawer). With the 40's the speakers become a bit harsh at high volume (and I have a small room - 13x19x9), but with my 160 mono's volume is not an issue - I get them quite loud w/out the onset of distortion. I presume from this that it is the power available, not the design of the amp or tube used. FWIW my Tylers are the Linbrook Signature Systems 1 piece.
One more comment, your room is pretty square. Rooms of that shape have frequncey response problems. You will need to need to work out sound reflection/absorbtion.
Add me to the "change amps" camp. I think you will find that if you feed the Linbrooks at least 100 quality watts, you will be in good shape. Coda class A solid state amps are excellent matches with the Linbrooks as an example, but many others brands and amp types will also work well.
Robertson35 commented that the math shows all should be well. What he did not mention is the impedance of that speaker. Does it dip below 4 ohms in the bass somewhere?
I hope that beemerrider does not ignore the Tyler bass units by labeling them subwoofers. They will fit right under your monitors and make them real full range speakers all the while giving you the volume that you seek. They will not take up more floor space or other wise, ugly up, the room. Aesthetically ideal and below budget! The concern about the monitors droping below 4 ohms in the bass range would be negated by the bass units taking over the bass duties. I feel the aesthetic concern is a major one. We don't want to spend the hugh amounts of money and time that we invest in creating our home enviornments just to throw it all away in search of an audio parameter. In this case extra volume or as beemerrider sees it, adequate volume. It's a valid goal but not one where you would sacrifice the overall aesthetic of the room. That's why I belive that the Tyler bass units would accomplish his goals without degrading the aesthetic of the room.
To add to Robertson35's comments/recommendations.........
Apart from amplifier considerations, one of the benefits of the added bass unit which might be overlooked and is pertinent to Beemeriders concerns......By adding the bass unit which crosses out the main speakers well above 100 hz you effectively reduce the demands on the main units mid range drivers - this will result in a much purer tone, especially at 'increased' volume levels.
I've come to believe that the use of high efficiency speakers is the key. Consider a pair of Zu Druids. At 101 db efficiency, they will deliver much more SPL than you will require in that room without any breakup using your present amplification. Zu is known for playing loud while remaining exceptionally coherent. They will really boogie.
Rather than GO loud I think you should pay attention to "sound good loud". A lot of speakers change their response curves at different volumes - will sound flat at low volume - and screechy, harsh or compressed at high volumes - so there is only a small range in the middle that sounds just right.
Revel claims they make sure the response is flat across all volumes. And my Joseph Audios seem to do this right also - its easy to turn them up loud and not realize it because they do not get harsh at loud volumes. Coincidentally both these speakers use very sharp crossover slopes.
As things stand, you'll either add that "bass unit" (i.e. not a subwoof) -- or you'll have to purchase new, fullish range speakers & a new amp. Indeed, if you keep the speakers you'll probably need a higher powered amp anyway (unfortunately): that's judging from your quick description up top.
A side clarification for our Seas afficionado: Seas happens to be in Norway -- not Denmark.
More words - or at least speakers that go down to the low 30s.
I have a very large room (39x19x9) and found happiness with a pair of used Alon V Mk IIs. I listen to about 70% classical and 30% everything else. I've always preferred full range speakers for classical, especially for the coherence required of large scale orchestral & vocal music.
My Alons play VERY loud if needed, without any strain or harshness, with a nice, extended treble, a rich midrange and solid bass. Very balanced. They are also quite open, dynamic and transparent, with a huge soundstage. They do demand a good quality, reasonably powerful amp, be it ss or tube. I drove mine with Herron M150 monos to excellent effect. A pair of Alon V MkII or IIIs will cost you $2k or under - which is a stone cold bargain. I think there's a pair for $1750 listed now. You won't get quite the same imaging characteristics with floorstanders as you do with monitors but the Alons image very, very well.
You might also look for the the full range Alon Lotus Signature Elites with the 16 ohm woofers - they were specially made to be sympatico with tube amps and possess more than enough cojones for a room your size.. 50 tubed watts is more than enough to drive them. Alas, they are no longer in production although the pop up here from time to time.
I've heard the Zu Druids on classical and they did not do it for me. They are fun and they boogie but I wouldn't want to own them, especially if I were primarily playing classical, opera and vocals. Just my 5 cents YMMV.
You were all kind to render your opinions and help, so I figure I owe you an update. I bought a Plinius 8150 integrated amp which puts out more than 230 watts/channel/4 ohms (the Tyler Linbrook Monitors are 4 ohm speakers). With this increase in power I find I can play the system as loud as I care to with no signs of distress. The 50 watt tube amp was, indeed, running out of steam. So, it seems that those of you who urged me to try more power were right on target. Thanks!
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