Micro Max 282 vs. Exclusive EA-10

I have mounted an Exclusive EA-10 on my Micro (I added a pic to my system), one of the most expensive Japanese tonearms, maybe a little underrated. The tonearm and the tubes are re-wired by Ikeda silver wire. The EA-10 reminds me very much of the Max 282, most properly it was built by Micro Seiki. Does anybody know if this is true?
I have an EA-10 (on an Exclusive P10). I also have a Max237 (and would love to find the extra armwand to make it a 282 but the armwands are seriously expensive on the used market!). I would have said almost the same thing you did. The EA-10 and EA-3 arms (the one on the Exclusive P3) have an eery similarity to the Micro Max 237/282 arms.

I'd be interested in knowing your opinion upon listening.

I do not know the source of the arm, but I just now thought of someone who would know so will ask and revert.
it seems to me the EA-10 tonearm is such rare as the wonderful Exclusive P10 TT is you are owning. Maybe because everything of the fantastic built technology this TT as well as the tonearm provides is covered by the plinth, so everyone was thinking this is just a standard Japanese direct drive table of the late 70ties, 80ties.

When Micro showed up with its big machines and the Max 237 (It was my first tonearm on the 8000, I sold it because the wiring was old copper 10 years ago and I went for newer designs- what a misleading error) this mark was buried in oblivion.

And to be honest - Pioneer was not an exclusive mark (of course it´s high end branch was - what a name game)to most audiophiles and is not in the high end analogue field anymore to my knowledge.

The EA-10 I am using on my Micro is rewired with Ikeda silver wire. It was not easy to find a bases for the Micro with such a big hole to carry the EA-10 massive block. The bases was built in Osaka in may this year.

Now this is my impresion with the Miyabi standard: Despite the silver is new and needs some time to be run in (I hear a little bright but rich sound) the overall picture is very stable, precise and with a deep soundstage. The EA-10 is one of my best old-design arms.
Thuchan, the EA-10 is anything but bright.

Sounds like the Silver wire you have transplanted has tilted the sound. Did the silver settle down?
Downunder, yes the silver improved substantially. I did it also with my Max 282. It is absolutely worth to do it. You then will have one of the top arms.
Fun Only - Thuchan
Dear Downunder, having re-wired both the EA-10 and the MAX-237/282 at least 3 times each (mostly with IKEDA silver PTFE insulated litzwire, I can testify that the stock inner wire of both tonearms is rather a sonic downgrade.
Both do feature pretty decent and un-symmetrical coaxial pvc-insulated copper wire inside which does not allow to show off their sonic virtues. The shield of that coaxial wire is used as "-" and is different gauge AND different material mix (steel/copper). It is not so much the wire which does need some time to settle, it is rather the solder joints.
Given the very tiny signal voltage (not to mention the micro current) of a LOMC, I regard silver wire inner wiring in a tonearm a conditio sine qua non if you really want all details buried in the groove brought to the preamp's RIAA.
How difficult is it to rewire the EA-10/EA-3 armwands? The EA-3 straight armwands have a small screw near the connector which looks like it could be used to undo the connector, but given the size, it looks like a very small-tipped soldering iron would be required. I assume the wiring inside the main body of the arm (i.e. the part other than the armwand) is left as-is?
Never heard the EA-10 but having owed both Max 282 and 237 multiple times, I'd say it is one of the worst sounding tonearms I have heard. Bright and sterile would be the right words to describe the sonic character. I would've still kept them if they sounded half as good as they looked.

FR-64 sounds 10X better at lower used price.
Dear Travis, not easy, but if you have any experience, good tools and not too much coffee the day, it will be a work of 3-4 hours. You need a SMD-tip for the solder iron, very precise temperature regulation and very small gauge solder.
The main body can be re-wired too - I've made it once ...;-) .... not fun, not easy and requiring quite some time and patience.
I am sorry they did not work for you. My experience has been different.

Thanks Daniel,
I have little soldering experience, almost no tools, but can avoid coffee when necessary. :^)
Opus 111,
i wonder a little about your assessment of the Max. I do remember when having owned a 237 some fifteen years ago and when i compared it with a modern arm it lacked some transparence and push. Neverheless it provided a good soundstage. I sold it due to changing my system. I always thought how might it have sounded with a good internal wiring.

When I was offered the EA-10 - and it reminded me of the Max by good reasons - the silver-rewiring had very good results. So I started the next project with the Max 282. Gosh - what a difference, and what kind of
improvement. Of course some time had passed since the "old assessments".

You need to hear a rewired Max and you will change your opinion at the same moment I am sure. Try it!

Best & Fun Only - Thuchan
Opus111, as said before in my earlier post, both tonearms do feature what I consider "worst case scenario-inner wiring". Coaxial with a mixture of gauges and copper/copper-steel litz-wire. Add the additional connector - with two more solder joints and two different material transitions - and you have the reasons for the sonic downgrade.
Versatility and additional features requested those additional connectors, but the poor coaxial inner leads are an irksomeness in tonearms of this built-quality and price tag.
I just got returned a fully rewired Micro Tube XP-282. The Ikeda silver wire - even if some people believe it should be a Hongkong replica ( the results speak a different language) is such a huge improvement that I sometimes regret what users are missing driving their Micro and SAEC tonearms with the original copper litz.

best & fun only - Thuchan
Dear Daniel, As you know I am a careful but also skeptical
reader. They fit together I will hope. My question: in the front of the headshell we have ,say, 8m coppper wire on the 'bobin' or the plate for the coils in the cart. At the back of the rewired 'wand' or tonearm tube we have,say, 1m
phono-cable. I want mention all the soldering points. How can +/-40 cm. of Ikeda silver wire in between be of such invluence for the sound?

Daniel and Eckert-I recently purchased a Max 282 and am reading this thread with great interest. Have either of you heard the Kondo silver wire vs the Ikeda silver? Since it is now clear that they need to be rewired, I certainly want to maximize its performance, as this is the next step.

Daniel I received my RX 5000 this week and am totally in love with it. With the limited time available, I was able to set up only an Audio Craft 4400 with Koetsu Coralstone, but this combination never sounded this good in any other turntable! If this is a precursor of what is to follow, I will be in heaven.

Now I finally understand your fascination with this wonderful sounding beast.
Thuchan, Dertonarm,

I have a MAX282 and would like to rewire it. I have all 3 armwands (AU, SC and SM). IS it difficult? Do you know someone who can do it? Thnks
Logenn, welcome to the fascinating world of Nihon`s best turntable manufacturer ever! Also the Coralstone is a wonderful cartridge and your Max is a perfect match.
Regarding the silver cables: It is nearly not possible to get Kondo silver litz for tonearm rewiring, the same with Crystal Cable. Both are excellent cables. In case of the Kondo it is very difficult to work with them cause every single filament is covered with thin plastic you have to unsolder. Usually it should be done by Kondo themselves or by some special dealers having the Kondo machine.

After rewiring you should also use silver wires in your headshell (Ikeda maybe). My best experience was with a SAEC 506/30 which was rewired from the cart`s pins (headshell) to the SUT (1,2 meters). No interfaces at all.

Enjoy this world. It is different!!! glad having you on board.

best & fun only - Thuchan
Dear Nikola, headshell leads should - as well as the phono-cable - be silver as well to preserve the minute details. In any case - it is a chain that transports a signal which gets spoiled, altered and diminished during its path through several terminals, cables, passive and active components, solder joints, networks etc. Every single step/part in this chain which you alter to transport the signal with less alternation, will sonically pay off.
Especially here in the very beginning of the path, where the signal from a LOMC is a fraction of a millivolt in voltage and similar low current.
To use a conductor with as high as possible conductivity is only logic in my point of view.
Hand -in-hand with this rewiring goes cleaning of the solder points and re-soldering with lead free 10% silver solder.
Dear Logenn, IMHO the Ikeda silver inner wire is the best of all worlds. Very flexible, very pure, pretty heavy gauge and superb insulation which can (if one knows how) be stripped without the slightest harm to the conductor.
I use Ikeda inner wire since 20 years now and had nothing but the very best results with it.
Most of the great tonearms from the past to suffer from poor inner wiring.
If you look at several top-flight-tonearms of today, you see that many of them sport inner wiring of high caliber and sometimes even prime trademark.
It certainly is an essential part of their performance.
In tonearm we are dealing with the lowest and smallest (read: most fragile) incarnation of the audio signal.
Careful inner wiring with highest conductivity metal is kind of "clearing the alley for the sonic parade".
Hi Ddriveman,

I give all my arms for rewiring to Dertonarm, it`s not cheap but you can trust the quality for years. I always go for new DIN-connectors, the old ones you may send to the moon. Some guys use them again due to "vintage& original design". They never anticipate you open up the arm again...

best & fun only - Thuchan

Dear Thuchan and Dertonarm- Appreciate your thoughts on the silver Ikeda wire for the Max 282. I should receive it this week and we may have a listen to it for a few weeks. I have a Dynavector XV 1S just back from Soundsmith and I may try this cartridge in the Max with a Crystal Cable tonearm wire.

I have been thinking about rewiring my Audio Craft 4400 to silver wire for some time and perhaps i should have it done as well.

I am also still in shock at how good the rx 5000 is performing. I am using it with a thread as recommended by Dertonearm.

All very good stuff.
Dear Logenn: As Thuchan pointed out the best " solution " is goes from very up-front ( tonearm-cartridge connectors. ) down to the phono stage input ( no SUT Thuchan because there are, between other things, additional " joints ". ).

I already tested no less than 20 different tonearm wires ( internal wire. ) and there are several that IMHO are better performers ( neutral. ) than the Ikeda one that I tested too.

Two of them are the Audio Note ( UK. ) and this one:


That Dertonarm used in the last 20 years the Ikeda IMHO only menas that in that subject he does not grow-up/improve.

Crystal that you are using is very good too as is Nordost one.

Btw, as usually I'm not commercialy biased on this internal wire subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Dear T_bone, ...;^) .... what went unnoticed by Raul's sharp ears and eyes once again, is the fact that I listed a few good purely mechanical and physical arguments to go with the Ikeda silver litz (which I neither distribute nor make myself ...).
Big problem with the Ikeda silver litz is, that you don't get it cheap nor with considerable discount anywhere (if any fellow Audiogoner does know a cheap source ... I would be happy to learn).
In an inner tonearm wiring I look for the same as in every other component or part in the audio chain: - objective technical features and quality aside from all individual "sonic taste" or "liking in my set-up".
Real physical quality never gets out of date.
After all, a cable is a stranded wire.
The purity of it's metallurgy and the care in production are key to it's conductivity - at least to the last small percentage and with the lowest current or voltage (speaking of LOMCs ...). Pure silver has the highest standard AES conductivity - aside from supra conductors working with ultra low temp cooling.
Now add an insulation which is ultra flexible AND needs no strapping (which in most cases does some inevitable surface damage to the conductor) and you can hardly ask for more.
At least not regarding performance in the old school meaning of the term.
If however one need the tonearm wiring to "match", "blend" or "synergize" with the sound of a given "set-up", "cartridge/phono stage" or one's "idea" of how it "should sound" - then there are certainly many more options (about as many as audiophiles on this planet..) and a much wider selection in tonearm inner wiring.
Isn't audio great ?!
'The best wire'. 'The best' is a way of speaking but imply or assume implicit the quantifier 'all'. Think of 'set-theoretic' paradoxes. Well the correct reading would be possible if the outhor adds 'from those inspected' or use
a numerical quantifier like Raul ( 20 ). We may assume that
Dertonarm inspected 'some wire' and concluded that Ikeda
is the best of them. Both of our dramitis personae can impossible claim to have inspected 'all wire' in the world.
So , it may look strange , but there is no contradiction here. Ie if the premises are not clear the deduction can
impossible be more clear. We already have had discussion
about 'the best cart' and 'the best tonearm'. In this way
of speaking everybody is entiteld to his own 'best'.

Dear Raul,

I made an comparison between the Audio Note Silver litz and the Ikeda Silver in my SAEC WE 8000 by accident. The arm was rewired with Audio Note Silver wire and sounded very good. Nevertheless I had a contact problem with the DIN connector and being in repair the arm was completly rewired with Ikeda Silver litz. Raul you may not believe me - and maybe you did have another Ikeda litz at the time - but the Ikeda is still an improvement, warmer and even more brilliant.

best & fun only. - Thuchan
Dear Nandric, on point! "the best" in audio related terms always has the very same meaning.
It translates to "the best I have heard with my individual matrix of preferences, likes, dislikes and moods". Sometimes it too means "sounded best with my set-up", "the best I can afford" or "the best my buddy told me".
Always my pleasure,
Dear T-bone: Sorry, here it is:


Regards and enjoy the music,

Dear Thuchan: +++++ " warmer and even more brilliant. " +++++

if you read my post I writed the word " neutral " as a main factor to analize which and how different wires performs and are " seated ".

Warmer and brilliant are not IMHO " neutral " but colored ones and this is not what I looking for.

I respect your priorities that can't be exactly similar to mines.

Anyway, what I posted is my opinion after that deepest tonearm wire tests.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Dear DT, I really have no set opinion on wiring, except that I favor either pure copper OR pure silver (vs silver-plated copper or other combinations), and I favor very thin gauge solid core wire or a ribbon vs stranded wire. Litz is not "stranded" in this definition, since the strands of a Litz wire are insulated from one another. But the Litz configuration is still a matter of taste, IMO. In any case, you repeatedly have written here and elsewhere that because silver is a marginally better conductor than copper, copper will actually fail to transmit low level signals conveying inner details of the music, compared to silver, when one is using a cartridge with a very low output voltage. IMO, this hypothesis of yours is not correct, i.e., not supported by scientific facts. The difference in conductivity between the two materials would not result in the total loss of information when using a copper conductor compared to a silver one, that you suggest. I agree that silver and copper do sound different, but I don't think we know why. If I am wrong in this belief, please enlighten me.
Dear Lewm, the silver litz in the Ikeda is not isolated from each other. The fact that here a small bundle of extremely thin wire is used is due to the requested flexibility. When possible - for instant in armwands like the MAX-armpipes or Exclusive/Pioneer - I used heavier gauge solid core silver.
But if the wire runs through the bearing flexibility is a key factor.
Pure silver features a 6%+ conductivity versus pure copper.
Given the same gauge, to me there is no race between the two and no competition.
I agree that silver can sound "subjective inferior to copper" in certain circumstances or audio chains. But that - IMHO - has nothing to do with copper being a better or equal quality conductor for audio signal, but with certain compensatory effects in that specific audio chain and - last not least - with individual taste.
In my experience copper does indeed loose the most subtle nuances compared to silver - same gauge - resulting in less harmonic details, less ambience air and less transparency.
But that is my opinion and my experience.
No dogma here.
Everyone happy with copper won't get any argument from me.
But for me personally copper is no alternative and I have eliminated it in my components and cables wherever possible and substituted it with silver ( not all Ikeda silver ..;-) ...).
In tonearm inner wiring we are dealing with the lowest signal current and voltage swing in the whole audio chain. Here silver is inevitable IMHO.
Dear Daniel, In our communication in the so called 'ordinary languge' many things are (pre) supposed
to be known. Some kind of economy of the language use.So
I already presupposed the 'fact' of the subjective approach in our hobby . One get usualy the advise to 'listen with his own ears'. A strange looking sentence
but the intendend meaning is to trust more your own hearing then those of others. So Raul as well as you should add 'according to me'. I know about the desire to put more in our statements than this 'damned' subjectivity
because of the inclination to 'objecify' our own opinion.
But all of us who know anything about scientific proof also
know that there is not a single scientific condition that is satisfied. Raul is obviously searching in a scientific way but there are no measurements to support his claims. Besides one can not have it both ways: subjective as well as objective. That is way there was no contradiction between you both. According to me that is. Such fights as between you both are, if I am well informed, also usual between even the particle physicist. I don't enjoy them but I am not suprised at all. Anyway you both are our high regarded members.

Dear Lew, I am sorry but despite your statement that you
have no 'set opininon' some sets are always involved by
any comparations. There are even sets with just one member.
Ie there is no way out of sets. My post started with an specific question. What kind of influnce a peace of 40cm
wire between the coils (x m. of cupper wire) and phono cable (+/- 1m) can have? Your argument is about two materials reg. conductivity that according to you can be measured? But, headshell wire ignored, my 'case' is about
3 different kind of wire in series. Not to mention all the
solderings parts. Any idea how this serie can be measured with some conclusive outcome?

Dear Nikola, at least "discussions" between R. and D. do contribute do fill the audio silly season which approaches soon ...;-) ...
You and me know well enough the principle of the volontè générale and how it was and is misinterpreted ever since it's birth.
Nothing about sound description is objective nor can it be.
In audio discussion with it's high egoism and individuality the abuse of personal preferences all too often leads into this kind of thinking.
Scientific approach ?
Certainly no one here really has a scientific approach to electrical components of the audio chain and particular not to their "sound quality".
This audio whole game is the contradiction per se of scientific approach.
You'll even get arguments here about simple geometry and force vectors.
Audio discussion is all about personal ideas, likes, dislikes, taste and individual matrix.
It is very much the same as discussing religious topics and believe.
Non-objective by nature.
Dear Raul,
maybe I am not very precisely listing all the words which are neccessary to describe the sound the Ikeda silver wire produces. It also depends on the units we are using - so it is always related to the instruments (audio reproduction machines, chain, combinations) used and the people behind them (we, you and me). I don't think we should believe that we are able to produce test results on a scientific bases between our systems.

When I say warm I mean not the typical cool sound "bad silver" may generate. Neutral in terms of cables is in my VHAFMMDO not a condition
I like to have. All these 2 Dollar cables sound to me very neutral - they don't sound but other people still believe it makes not a difference - okay.
Let them end up with neutral emotions - not me. Okay when you mean a cable should not alter the sound to the bad side than this is somehing different and I guess it is that what you mean.

Regarding tonearm inner cables I prefer a very precise, open and wide
expression - this is for me brilliance and I would never use a tonearm cable which is not able to transport these qualities. Hope you can get along with my remarks.
Dear Thuchan: I understand you. I'm not saying that the Ikeda ones are not good because they are what I'm saying is that over a " serious " tests on three different audio systems along other 19 cables/wires there are other cables that IMHO are " dead neutral " against the Ikeda.

Two of those audio systems are really accurate where the third ( tubes ) has some colorations. During the tests at the end all those cables I name it outperform the Ikeda in all three systems.

The tests were not at random but following an " strict " process that include ( between other things ): same groves between the same LPs tracks ( grooves that I know as my palm's hand. I even know from which side and how many and which kind of ticks/pops have those LP grooves. ), even SPL, no other system change but the tonearem wires, relaxed mood, time/day hours tests with the lower background place noises, same cartridge/tonearm set up overall process, etc, etc.

Of course at the end this is only my opinion but as always the important one is yours because you are the one that must live with those wires.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Dear Daniel, I myself was not thinking in the context of
Rousseau's volonte generale but in the context of 'authority' versus 'truth'. You know that till Galileo
those were considered to be identical. So Aristoteles ruled
for more then 2000 years over Europe because of his authority. But this 'turn' is scientific one. Our ordinary
members need some quidance and advise and thy are those who attribute 'authority' to some other members. So despite the fact that,say, Raul never claimed any authority reg. carts ( he invited J. Carr to explain the issue) he is regarded to be one. The same is true about you in other domein and Halcro in some other domein,etc.
To me this is a sensible thing to do and think. What are
the alternatives? The reason is simmple: R,D or H know more about x then I so...
You may call this 'believing' or even 'religion' but that is how it works and I don't believe that this is wrong.
We the ordinary members are not stupid. We read , compare and think and then decide whom to trust. As you know of course Kant has also something to say about the 'practical reason'.

Dear Thuchan, the problem in all these cable test is always the same.
It is the very same in all these audio tests.
Every test not performed by yourself is performed and verified with a different set of ears and a different brain as yours.
As such these "results" are what they are - nothing and void, if not done by yourself.
Unless you envy and want Raul's ears, experiences, taste ( can't imagine that - did you see that rug in his living room ?) and system (can't imagine that either ... knowing yours quite well ) - his "findings and results" through "strict process" may have a meaning to him and may even help him in his learning process and his set-up, but are not transferable to others at all.
Neither to you, nor Syntax nor me.
You know my taste and sonic ideas very well and I know yours.
We both do from direct 1st hand experience and thus both our "findings" can be put into perspective by the other.
Unless you visit the mexican Zarathustra and get a 1st hand experience there, his findings will remain smoke and dust to you.
That is his tragic dilemmata as well as that of other self-proclaimed Audio-Zarathustras.
There is no truth aside from what you like.
It all comes down to you and your taste (thank god!) - having to live with the taste and ideas of another is certainly not the way I would like to spent my days.
Cheers and fun !
Dear Dertonarm: What you posted means: that over the years all what you posted on Agon has no " value " ? are not " transferable to others at all?.

IMHO you are trying to diminish all the contributions that all the Agoner's already made it in Agon: of course save but you!

So and following your statements maybe is time to close Agon and other net forums. Thank's to this forum and his people in-here you are earning money and could be risky if Agon close: don't you think?

My experiences and other Agoner's experiences are that many of what we discuss in these forums are " transferable " and due to this true " transferable " meaning many of us already improved the quality performance level in our systems.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Dear Raul, The pope answered some questions by some intrusive lady by stating: 'but my lady I am already Catholic.' We already know what you think about 'some'
German. I don't believe that your repetion is similar to
the Roman one: 'repetion is the mother of study'.
Besides I thought that your time must be a scarce 'good'.

Dear Nandric,
repetition is the mother of all forces. Telling you the third time that you are not my love baby should discourage you pleading all the time you still want to become my love baby. This is a bit like kindergarden but we are sometimes acting & reacting in this way - with our beloved toys in the play box.

I always feel sorry when Audigoners are too much driven by a strong belief making all friends catholics meaningly trying to convince them that there is only one direction to go...

best & fun only - Thuchan
You obviously don't mean that! Three Hail Marys for you I think.
Dear Thuchan, 'some German' is some kind of descriptive function entailing one variable. But I meant by 'some' D and not T . Besides my remark about Rauls repetion reg. D is the opposite of your generalization. I see no force in
this kind of repetion. So I thought that Raul can use his
spare time in a better way.
The remarks about 'love baby' are above my comprehension.
Even T_bone seem to have some 'comprehension' trouble with your text. Some German humour intended?

DT, Until today I had not read your reply to my post. You write, "the silver litz in the Ikeda is not isolated from each other". If by this you mean to say that the individual strands in the wire are not insulated from one another, then the Ikeda is not Litz wire at all. The definition of a Litz wire demands that each tiny strand is insulated from the others and the strands are wound in a particular way. Anyway, that is a side issue. I am about to try out the Audio Note silver Litz wire (true Litz wire) in one of my tonearms, if I can get it through the bearing house, as you remark. If not, I may run it outside the arm tube. But meantime, I am also enamored of the C37 cryo-treated silver wire that I ordered to be installed in my Reed tonearm. Of course, I am comparing it to nothing, using only one cartridge so far, and my opinion is completely subjective.

I liked your post of Apr 29 regarding the subjectivity and inherent lack of "science" in the matter of comparing any two items in an audio chain. I totally agree. The devices we use are born from science and thrown out to us to pay for and use as we will and then to write about in these gaseous fora.

I don't argue with your statement that you think copper loses detail compared to silver, but this does not at all prove your conclusion that this is happening because silver is "6%" better as a conductor. You are taking two separate "facts" and positing a cause-effect relationship that does not fit the known science of conductors, IMO. (But if I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate a reference to the relevant scientific literature that proves me wrong. This issue IS amenable to a scientific approach.) Like Thuchan says, all for fun.

While Raul sometimes likes to take the role of gadfly, and I can see that you two are at odds on many subjects, I think your ripostes could be a bit more to the point and a bit less ad hominem. Raul could do the same, perhaps. Because, like Thuchan says, it's all for fun.
Dear Lewm, yes, I know that the inner construction of the Ikeda doesn't qualify for the term "litz". I rather quoted the general phrase used for this type of inner wiring. Ikeda himself names it just "Pure silver wire".
Silver is not "better" by 6% versus copper of the same gauge and purity.
At least not in the sense of the word...;-)....
It's AES-rated conductivity for LF audio signal is 6% higher.
Thus the chance to preserve the faintest parts of signal-swing are better by 6%.
At least my "personal tests" did illustrate and verify this relation to me.
Ad hominem versus ad personam?
I guess it is rather de-escalating if I put my answers in a rather generalized form and do not answer direct to a person.
There will be very little argument at all in the future between R. and me.
Promised...;^) ....
Dear Nandric, Dear T_Bone
answering it was not my intention to adress you personally as my love baby... of course... :-) It's only a role play I was trying to show. people who tend to repetition do not find the relaxing mode, they are running like a record, in circles, with the difference that the needle goes forward, - they do not.

best & fun only - Thuchan
Dear Lewm,
you are so right but I do no believe that we will see the day of a peace treaty between Dertonarm and Raul. I do remember that many threads were closed when the fun was gone. If we arrive at the good habit not bashing people and using more generalization this could mean a step forward. And please no repetitions and pressure habits anymore. It is so boring...

best & fun only - Thuchan
What's with these Picasso faces all of a sudden? :^)
The eyes and mouth in 'full frontal' with the nose in 'elevation'?
Or is that the nose that has been flattened sideways by all the punches? :-))
Dear Halcro, I mentioned Picasso in the context of your
arm pod implying that it looks as an object of art.
But some of us, uh, the foreigners, are already 'wrestling'
with the English grammar and phrasing so even the so called
'plain' or 'ordinary English' is difficult enough for us.
But your methaphoric 'picture' may be a 'bridge to far' for
the mentioned 'us'. So I assume that you are addressing primary the native English speakers (grin)?
We all profit from the rich experience and knowledge of both Dertonarm and Raul. But we don't like when thy fight.
There is olso this 'natural' inclination to choose sides which make the situation even worst. There is also not much
to learn from 'ád hominem' arguments as Lew put it.
But there is also differece between the two reg. temper.
The German never use(d)s offending expressions but prefer
sarcastic way of expressing himself.
I alas never meet Dertonarm in person but I am somehow convinced that he does not look like a windmill nor as a
red rag. However for a 'Spaniard' this may be different.

Dear Nandric, as far as looks go, I am a mixture of George Glooney and Pierce Brosnan ... ;-) ....