Nearfield Low-Level Listening : New Speakers or EQ? Thoughts?

Just my two cents, but it seems that EQ won't fix your problem. EQ would be more for tweaking the sound of a system that is close to your ideal, whereas higher sensitivity speakers should function better at lower dB levels. I have 85dB speakers (ATC SCM19) that listen to near field (6 feet) and low level listening isn't their strength. My amp outputs 220 wpc.

Nice big room, nice stuff,

a few comments:

1. your accuphase loudness compensation is nothing like fletcher munson curves, and is a simple bass boost on/off +6db at 100hz, not progressive, not volume related, thus your comment 'it helps some' makes perfect sense. I would not use it when the Schitt gets there, 

2. schitt is different than any equalizer I ever messed with, it has 6 bands, and treats their +/- range differently, thus play with them individually to get a feel for what each band can do, pretty simple as it has remote bypass.

Bands: 20Hz, 120Hz, 400Hz, 2kHz, 6kHz, 16kHz

Adjustment: +/-12dB at 20Hz and 16kHz, +/-9dB at 120Hz and 6kHz, +/-6dB at 400 and 2kHz

It is a 'set and forget' except that it has 3 factory presets and let's you save anything you want in place of those 3.

"9 Preset/Favorite Press briefly to select from one of three EQ presets. Or, press and hold for 5 seconds to define a new favorite on the currently selected preset."

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I would 1st ascertain what I was getting with my system flat, using a SPL Mic and a CD with test tones

SPL, make sure it has a bottom threaded hole for tripod use

http://Amazing Bytes CD has 29 1/3 octave test tones

you may find a slightly preferable speaker positioning and or toe-in prior to using the EQ.

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I like the automatic and progressive bass boost that I get at only low volume listening from my Chase Remote Line Controller RLC-1

It does not adjust the highs like Fletcher Munson, but it does have basic tone controls which I do not use.

I wish the Schiit had remote balance like the Chase does.

I listen nearfield at low levels.  It isn't your speakers as much as your electronics.  Most amps suck at low power levels.  tube amps is the best solution but there are others.  of course with tube amps you may need more sensitive speakers. 

But I've tried driving sensitive speakers with high power amps.  if you take a 300 watt power amp and turn it down to 0.1 watt, it will suck.  lets just say I've never heard one that doesn't.

Jerry

Just sell everything to someone more deserving of your gear. You didn’t need all this gear for it to squeal away at 45db.

Get a pair of in-ear earphones, turn the volume way down to 40 dB or whatever.... and let it squeal softly.

At 80 dB, a fairly loud average level your ears are down about 10dB at 30 Hz. It's significantly worse at lower levels. It's not the equipment. What you hear is what happens at low loudness levels. You need to equalize to get the affects you want at low levels or listen at higher levels. By the way ears are essentially level at 100 dB, way too loud as an average level for ear health.

@deep_333 always helpful.

The issues are multi-faceted. Some speakers really do need to be played at a certain level before they "come alive" like Frampton. EQ can help your perception of certain frequencies, but if your speakers "don't sing" at lower levels with a decent dynamic range, then they will simply not sound their best.  EQ is the first place to start by boosting lows and highs, but at the end of the day, you might have better luck with getting some more "lively" speakers that offer a dynamic range even at lower volumes. 

In my bedroom I have some ancient 92 dB efficient ADS L520 speakers and play them at roughly 50 dB before going to sleep. I have EQed them using a streamer app running Tidal. To me they sound great, even at that low of a volume. 

@OP. I have no experience of the Totems but it is certainly the case that certain speakers do not sound right at low volume levels and sensitivity measurements are not always a perfect guide to that. You could try something like a pair of DeVore O series - that will tell you if there is potential for a speaker replacement.

I'm curious, given the room dimensions and the picture with the LPs, it looks like the speakers are about four feet apart. Are you really that compromised regarding placement?

What is the voice coil diameter on the Totem drivers? You want 26mm. 38mm like Scan speak and Dynadio take tons of power to get going and never sound good at low volumes.

I do not know about sensitivity playing a part. I had some 88dB sensitivity and the bass did not kick in until 85dB.  I prefer no crossover for low volume.

+EQ - Fletcher Munson curve

Good input.  Lots to consider.  Volume, Amp, speakers, EQ, room, tubes, voice coil diameter, F-M Curve …

I will try the EQ first.  I have thought about higher sensitivity speakers, always wondered about Fyne F700/701.  A tube amp has been in the back of my mind, but there is much, for me, to love about the Accuphase vibe, and it is still new-ish.

@yoyoyaya yes, very close together, an unfortunate room limitation. Contributes to issue?

@cdc cannot find spec info for voice coil diameter, and more clues?

@moonwatcher thanks for the Frampton reference 

@elliottbnewcombjr good info on the Loki bands, thx.

@deep_333 your right, time to sell everything.👎

Will do some research into the Fletcher-Munson Curve.  Any recommended resources.

appreciate the Forum and it inhabitants.

I use a Loki Max for this very purpose and it works great for me. I live in a tiny NYC apartment and using it to bump the low and the high end when I want to listen late at night without bothering my wall neighbors works well. It’s just what my Tannoy Stirlings needed for that situation. 

I think you should have waited for your Loki Max before posting this. I've used a couple of Lokis for years (early adopter...now one is in my stereo video system and another is part of my main rig's Vali 3 headphone stack) and bought a Loki Max last year for my main system...a brilliantly designed EQ and the remote is a game changer. Fletcher/Munson can pound sand!

@OP I don't think the placement per se is the cause of the issue you are experiencing. But it does seriously compromise soundstaging. Unfortunately, it also means that the Devore O series won't work as their front baffles are too wide for the available space. The Gibbon series might. I'm presuming that the Forest Signatures, which are floorstanding, have replaced the stand mounts shown in your picture. That said, the Forests are essentially stand mount speakers with a cavity for mass loading built into the speaker. I think, in essence, the situation is that you have a small volume speaker that is slightly insensitive so you have a speaker with limited bass extension which is exacerbated by the relative reduction in perceived bass at low listening levels. Your use of the loudness control on the amp is an attempt to compensate for that, as will be the use of the Schiit. That is something of a sticking plaster rather than a full solution. I do think that you would get better results with a pair of more efficient speakers that also have a driver / cabinet combination that will allow them to move more air at low listening levels.

op you are barking up the wrong tree

your amplifier has more then enough power

changing to greater efficiency loudspeakers wont fix it nor will eq

low levet listening involves the flecher munson curve which dictates the ear is less adept at hearing low bass at lower levels you might think adding a sub would fix tha it wont as a good woofer just adds pressure to the leading and trailing notes of the totems the man sound is just coming from the totems

and an eq is too likely to muck up your tonal balance without offering enough finessee to fix the issue

having heard the totem forests for years you need a warmer fuller sounding loudspeaker with greater mid-bass response

please lk at a pair  of Legacy signatures or a pair of Harbeths to completely give you what you are craving.

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect NJ

legacy dealer

By the way, 23’ x 23’ x 8’, square rooms can be problematic, even more reason to use measurements to find advantageous, avoid problematic positioning and toe-in.

I would lower the speakers, tilt them back, aim tweeter up at seated ear height, altering the INITIAL reflections off both the floor and ceiling.

Amazing Bytes CD with Test Tones Info here

only finding two expensive listings on Discogs at the moment. Write me a message, I could help you find an inexpensive copy.

I make an enlarged copy of page 4, use the 29 1/3 octave test tones with the SPL Mic on a tripod at ear level listening position. This combined with the Schiit EQ, use one of the presets for ’measured with mic’ then finally, you use your ears and set another of the presets for personal preference.

If there is a big difference between what the mic hears and you hear, time for a hearing test.

I like this chart

EQ will work ... good luck!

I would think that higher sensitivity, more forward sounding speakers may suit you better. 

https://speakerchoices.com/

Although the Totems are not exactly low sensitivity, there may be better options, I would also look at the charts at https://www.spinorama.org/

@gemoody

Woofer: 6.5″ / 16.51 cm, 3″ / 7.62 cm voice coil. I assume standmounts have the same woofer.

Have been told my speakers, Totem Forest Signature, "need power to sing".

Agreed. And I agree that you would need an amp that has full output at the first watt. But that will not fix your problem.

I agree and disagree on EQ / Fletcher Munson. Yes, you can brute force correct for low volumes with eq. But "FR compensation" and "Come to life" are two different things.

Yes, Aiwa stuff was great. Giant Sony had an interesting way to deal with their competition. They bought Aiwa and then "discontinued" the company.

EQ will render a more cost-effective solution for you. The reason is that even a V-shaped SPL speaker will, in most cases I’ve seen, provide a boost of around 5 dB in the mid-bass and upper registers. However, to achieve the equal loudness contour (ELC), you typically need a 9-10 dB boost in the bass region for an average listening level of 45-55 dB, as I have at night.

Additionally, I believe digital EQ is more effective than its analog counterpart.

Try your old Kenwood amp first (not kidding).

Proper EQ will work.

DeKay

New speakers see here

Mike

How low are low levels?  I listen somewhat near field at around 50-60 db and get very good results from my Fritz Rev 7s.  Not sure how loudly you listen but 50-60 is about the level of a normal conversation.  I have a 5 band equalizer on my integrated that works very well for this type of listening environment.  I still get very good soundstage and imaging.  They do open up more with more power but they are very satisfying late night at 50-60db.

One thing I’ve been taught is that unless a room is very highly damped and/or the speakers are highly directional and very close to the listener, most of the sound power that reaches the listener’s ears is from room reflections. So I think that a speaker that has pinched dispersion in the midrange with a widening response up higher, and maybe a rear firing tweeter to boot might be great for low volume listening. Also, controlling early reflections so they don’t reach the ears too soon will help, as I recently re-discovered for myself. Imaging tends to improve with volume because more low level details are audible. Nevertheless, the less confusion there is in the first 10 ms of signal that reaches the ears, the better we can hear imaging and subtle transient details even at low listening levels. Also it’s super important to especially get after the early reflections that occur across the room, which cause sound from the left or right speaker to cross our heads from the wrong side. Those early reflections should be deflected away from you rather than fully absorbed, especially I’d think for low level listening where you want to keep as much ambience in the room as possible because the ambient tail is going to fall below your threshold of hearing sooner. So for a low level listening room I’d focus more on deflecting early reflections away from your listening position and back toward  the speaker that made the sound rather than absorbing them. Later reflections coming laterally from the correct side of the room can be extremely pleasing.

One of the best speakers I ever made for sounding good at low level got that characteristic when I pushed the woofer crossover up to 3500 Hz, where it crossed over to a 19mm tweeter on a minimal baffle. Look at where the equal loudness contour is at 3500 Hz!

Schiit Loki Mini @ $149 will do the trick nicely...don't spend your money on new speakers...try this first. It works!

You have some great gear, it's a shame that it doesn't get to stretch its legs. 

Besides speaker placement, and treating the room for near field. Think some higher efficiency speakers would really help. 

No near filed, but my stereo is turned on 15min after I wake up in the morning. My house is still mostly asleep. I listen to it around 40-45db for a few hours. While it does lack some low end punch, it still sounds wonderful. 

@mswale Thanks for the compliment on the gear. To be clear, I do have the opportunity to turn it up, and it does sound much better!

Thanks to all who have commented and given their time and expertise.  Much appreciated.

@deep_333 always helpful

He seems to take great pride in consistently  providing those helpful posts, @jastralfu .