Next best exponential DAC quality level?

You only consider my posts argumentative because you do not agree with them and you are unable to refute them. I see me and a few others trying to address the op's @martinman 's post, and a whole bunch of you making personal attacks on those that do if it does not agree with the answer you think it right. May I kindly request that you keep to the topic, agree or refute what is in the content of people's posts, and stop trying to denigrate the people who disagree with you (and all the others doing exactly the same). Is that too much to ask for on a forum populated by adults?

Heck, I'm jealous of the guy...he and the OP have apparently found musical bliss for $100! I would give $100 if I could find musical bliss for $100 LOL.

When people think its about the chip and then brace themselves to vigorously defend their position like a jr high debate team alternate, I tend to just carry on. I will probably wish I did just that.

@ghasley 

the pollution level has gotten so incredibly high this week

i suspect most of the respected, long time contributors are so tired of the garbage and ready to pack it in

really too bad... perhaps tammy et all have taken the week off

I hear you…ill just lurk, post when the mood strikes, make fun of the absurd from time to time and generally expercise moderation in all I am able lol.

It's funny, the guy who's been here one day telling members how to behave on the forum. And he's been so considerate.

@lowrider57 , well when the members with 4,661 posts don't call out bad behavior I guess the new guy has to do it. Do you consider that a badge of honor and consider the behavior acceptable, including 10 troll posts from one person and frequent attempts at personal degradation, not addressing post content?

I don't.

Op, do you want a real answer, or a made up one?

Does that sound silly? This whole thread is silly.

DAC chips are so good today, that you can make a DAC for a few hundred dollars that is better than human hearing will ever be. Add another few hundred dollars and you can isolate that from any noise source. Add in a low volume premium and for under $1,000 you can have something perfect.

Now if you want something that is not perfect, that will cost you big bugs, because then you are paying for art, not reproduction.

Are we supposed to take people seriously that compare highly distorting tube outputs to no distortion solid state? Seems silly. Changing a setting on a DAC for the output filter and a multi-thousand $$ DAC will create more difference between it and itself than it will with similar filter setting between it and a much cheaper DAC.

You are asking a group of people for an opinion who have never compared without looking at whats playing, without ensuring the volume is exactly the same, or learning what the filters do and why they may impart a sound, hence DO sound different, and who think NOS is the be-all, when it is just a noise mess, but sure it does sound different.

Good luck on your quest, but these are not the droids you are looking for ... I mean the answer to the question you seek.

I rarely taunt other members but you set the tone of this thread by coming out with both guns blazing. Every other post was you denigrating members' contributions. I love the attitude that nobody here is capable of comparing equipment in an audition. The many manufacturers and designers that frequent this forum have too much class to join this thread and tell you what's what. I don't expect these experts to contribute their valuable knowledge to a thread with such mean-spirited overtones. 

Apologies to the OP.

I think you have your answer @martinman. Several posters have spent now pages trying to discredit me. Not discredit what I wrote other than hand waving about $10K DACs and $99 DACs, but discredit me because I have the audacity to say, and explain in basic, honest, and accurate terms why you are not finding much if any difference between your DACs, which are all inexpensive, but based on modern, near state of the art chips, competently designed. I even pointed out where you may run into system issues with these lower cost DACS (that expensive DACs may or may not fix) and what you may or may not experience with expensive DACs.

In another thread, "Single Ended DAC vs Dual Differential XLR DAC", there are many defending the "sound" of what may be the worst audio DAC ever made including attacking the website that did a proper test and showed how poor this product is. One of those people doing that is attacking me here as well.

But @martinman , not only are they attacking me. They are now attacking you. According to them, you are delusional. How does that make you feel?

Martin is delusional. How could you possibly think the $99 DAC could be anything other than a $99 DAC unless the Chinese are selling $10,000 DACs for $99 now to put everyone else out of business.

Yeah +100 lowrider 57, Cindy and Martin have come on the Ferrari forum telling everyone that their Honda City can do 0-60 mph in under 3 secs so why should they pay $1m for a Ferrari?

The TESLA 3 with Dual Motor's, which is about $55,000 does a 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds, which is better than almost every Ferrari ever made except the most recent 488 at > $250,000 and some previous ultra expensive models.

@lordmelton : I see you deleted your post that @cindyment is quoting. Unfortunate, because it was clear you didn’t realize that I was the OP.

1.5 pages of useful stuff, 1.5 pages of alley way pushing and shoving.

This is BS. I think we all need to go outside (myself included).

You all should be congratulating me like @ghasley did -- ffs.

Heck, I’m jealous of the guy...he and the OP have apparently found musical bliss for $100! I would give $100 if I could find musical bliss for $100 LOL.

The unofficial end of thread was 1.5 pages ago...    

The TESLA 3 with Dual Motor’s, which is about $55,000 does a 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds, which is better than almost every Ferrari ever made except the most recent 488 at > $250,000 and some previous ultra expensive models.

Yeah, but all it will ever be is a Tesla. 🤔

Tell ya what. I’ll race ya. You in a Tesla and me in my Silverado. We’ll start on the east coast and finish on the west coast.

The TESLA 3 with Dual Motor's, which is about $55,000 does a 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds, which is better than almost every Ferrari ever made except the most recent 488 at > $250,000 and some previous ultra expensive models.

Electric vs petrel? Apples to apples, ummmm not so much. If I had a choice between those two, it wouldn’t be the boring, sterile, zero feeling, zero feedback one.

There is a reason this is the case for many. If you don’t understand that analogy/reasoning, that’s fine and is your personal preference.

The irony here is that you are doing the same thing (with a vengeance) to others that disagree with you. There is so much more then a spec sheet and measurements. Those are most certainly important, but its not the end all, not even close.

It really is a preference thing and in this hobby it’s ultimately about SQ and how well that SQ moves you on an emotional level. You either understand that point of view or you don’t, since for most in this hobby that is what it’s all about. If that aspect isn’t important or not what you’re after, that’s totally fine. Reaching that elusive emotional aspect with either the best measured or not best measure component isn’t the goal.

“There is so much more then a spec sheet and measurements. Those are most certainly important, but its not the end all, not even close.

It really is a preference thing and in this hobby it’s ultimately about SQ and how well that SQ moves you on an emotional level. You either understand that point of view or you don’t, since for most in this hobby that is what it’s all about.

If that aspect isn’t important or not what you’re after, that’s totally fine. Reaching that elusive emotional aspect with either the best measured or not best measure component isn’t the goal.“

@redlenses03 nailed it!

@redlenses03 +1

I also think there’s a bit of a messiah complex at work here. There are certain underlying assumptions that form the basis, and certainly the tone, that is evident in many posts ...

1. Most audiophiles are fools who can be parted with their money easily. Since I’ve read about specs and multiple wikipedia articles on the technical aspects, it is my moral obligation to save these fools from themselves.

2. The higher DACs, or any audio component for that matter, are nothing more than unscrupulous manufacturers and designers who are out to fleece the audiofools.

3. I have a background in network engineering, and therefore that makes me an expert on all things ’audio’. I need to save the uninformed audifools from themselves.

4. Specs are vastly superior to actual listening experience. I can tell everything about a component by reading specs, graphs, and charts. Actual listening is vastly overrated. The audifools are incapable of understanding things like implicit bias, double blind tests, and pretty much anything. I need to save the audiofools from themselves,

5. Those who buy high end DACs only do it because they've got money to burn and its more about bragging rights than actual music enjoyment. It's my moral obligation to set these pretentious bastards right.

6. If I can't hear a difference between a $99 and $10K DAC, this must be the ultimate truth. Everybody else who claims otherwise is an audiofool.

7. I’m the smartest man on this forum, therefore anyone who disagrees with me is an audifool.

Smartest man? No, but I appear to be one of the only people who acts like an adult @arafiq, as once again, your post is all about discrediting me, not addressing point by point or at all really my argument. Same tired points in a tireless need to discredit because you cannot address the topic properly.

I would not claim to be the smartest man in this thread, but based purely on the observation of what has been written, I appear to have by far the most actual knowledge of DACs, how they are designed, how they work, what impacts performance, what does not, how they truly behave in systems, not how I think they behave or have been told they behave. That's not from Wikipedia either. Have you ever injected various levels of jitter into a DAC to see what happens and both measured AND listened? I have. The op was looking for an informed opinion on what he experienced. I gave him one.  Have you ever tried a $99 DAC (I would suggest $200 for a nice case) connected to a low cost USB isolator with basic linear power supply and compared that to a $10,000 DAC designed to accurately replicate a signal. More likely you accuse others of what you are guilty of.

I have been quite clear that many high priced DACs are designed with a specific sonic signature targeting personal preference, not to accurately reproduce the waveform. I have no qualms, and am quite supportive of this pursuit, but I will take issue when said supplier that does that claims "improved accuracy". I am totally with @lalitk on this point that sound preference (lets not use quality) is the most important thing.

On the other hand, many high end DACs are statement pieces that may have slightly better measured performance, though inaudible. If someone has the money to buy one, or doesn't and still does, again I have no issue. Do I take issue with companies that claim they are "technically superior" but don't back it up, and when put to the test fail, I do, and I would hope others do as well. That is not ethical.

The op was right, this thread ended 1.5 pages ago. Unfortunately the outrage has not.

Lol @ outrage! There's only one person here who's been foaming at the mouth since the thread ended 1.5 pages ago. How dare these fools don't bow to my greatness? I am the self-appointed ethics czar of audio, don't you understand?

@arafiq ,

No need for me to reply to this.

Lol @ outrage! There's only one person here who's been foaming at the mouth since the thread ended 1.5 pages ago. How dare these fools don't bow to my greatness? I am the self-appointed ethics czar of audio, don't you understand?

I also think there’s a bit of a messiah complex at work here. There are certain underlying assumptions that form the basis, and certainly the tone, that is evident in many posts ...

1. Most audiophiles are fools who can be parted with their money easily. Since I’ve read about specs and multiple wikipedia articles on the technical aspects, it is my moral obligation to save these fools from themselves.

2. The higher DACs, or any audio component for that matter, are nothing more than unscrupulous manufacturers and designers who are out to fleece the audiofools.

3. I have a background in network engineering, and therefore that makes me an expert on all things ’audio’. I need to save the uninformed audifools from themselves.

4. Specs are vastly superior to actual listening experience. I can tell everything about a component by reading specs, graphs, and charts. Actual listening is vastly overrated. The audifools are incapable of understanding things like implicit bias, double blind tests, and pretty much anything. I need to save the audiofools from themselves,

5. Those who buy high end DACs only do it because they've got money to burn and its more about bragging rights than actual music enjoyment. It's my moral obligation to set these pretentious bastards right.

6. If I can't hear a difference between a $99 and $10K DAC, this must be the ultimate truth. Everybody else who claims otherwise is an audiofool.

7. I’m the smartest man on this forum, therefore anyone who disagrees with me is an audifool.

If one finds themselves in constant conflict with others, the only viable thing to do is  look in the mirror and assess.  
 

Or you can can just always put all the blame on others and see where that gets you which is nowhere. 

@mapman,

I am not sure that is targeted at me or others, but one must first assess who you are in conflict with. I seem to be in "conflict" with a small but very vocal set of people. Others have applauded me, and based on their other posts, I care more about their acceptance, than about those "in conflict".

You have heard the, attributed to Japanese culture, "The nail that sticks out highest, is the first to be hammered down". Did you know that came from a taoist proverb, 木秀於林，風必摧之?  Which translates, not by me, to "The tree that grows tallest, will always be the first to be toppled by the winds". This proverb is not saying "don't be the tallest tree", it is a cautionary tale, that if you are the tallest tree, which is viewed as the best tree, to be prepared. Do you want to be the Bristlecone pine, that while the longest lived, no one cares about and no one goes to see, or do you want to be the Giant Sequoia that lives almost as long, but which people plan trips around and have on their bucket list? History is full of people who changed the world, and who had to go through a lot of "conflict with others" to get there.

Legend 😁

Yes well when one is a new kid on the block it is usually a good idea to not make too many enemies. Some people are better at that than others but it is no doubt a good strategy for success. Too much conflict never ends well. It’s a failure plain out. Better for a wise man to learn how to get along with others for the benefit of all. Of course it’s an imperfect world so one can only strive with the knowledge that some things are out of one’s control. But many are not. Like how you treat and respect others including those with differing views.

If accused falsely I would merely clearly deny it. If it persists after that then one has done their part and can only move on. Best to not get caught up in constant pissing contests. It’s a bad look for all! No winners.

Just my opinion…..

I am in a transition of my system and was stuck with just the Dac inside the Node 2 for a few weeks. It sounded pretty descent. Locally just bought a Burson Composer 3xp. No contest. Could I pass a blind test? Yes I believe I easily could. Could tell from the 1st 10 seconds. Wish I still had my RME to compare. I liked that one as well. 

@mofojo 

The Node 2 is a bit of a black sheep. I had one too. I think a lot of us did. If you said you passed a blind test, I would not be one to be discounting it. It not only measures not very well, but I was convinced that the performance was variable. I think I read that someone showed it was susceptible to inter-sample overs, but I could never be bothered to find out. My son is quite happy with it now.

I know a lot of people who own RME products. They are really solid. I don't have any experience with the Burson.

I’m wondering if the new node is better sounding as a streamer only than the older node 2. Node has freaked out a few times in the last week and was making kinda fluttering noises through the speakers. Need to unplug and back in and goes away. 

“I’m wondering if the new node is better sounding as a streamer only than the older node 2.”

@mofojo

Probably not, the BluOS experience is still the same which is pretty decent. Nevertheless, the new Node is a good upgrade from the Node 2i, adding additional features like eARC HDMI, USB Audio output (eventually) and enhanced touch screen. The Node also has high resolution audio capacity (up from 192kHz to 384kHz) thus giving the impression of better sound quality as all in one unit.

Ah, the truth behind the controversial SQ differences among dacs.  I ended up with a D70S and that's fine enough for me.

Folks, I read this thread with interest and some amusement.  

Kudos to cindyment for their thoughtful, rational and respectful responses and explanations. I certainly hope that more people of this intelectual caliber remain in this group. 

 

hshifi

495 posts

11-30-2021 5:25pm

Hello,

I have demoed the Hint6 and it is very good for what it is. I call it the Swiss Army knife of integrated amps. It does everything ok. That’s just it. It doesn’t do anything great. I am going to suggest you listen to a Hegel 190. The Hegel 120 will do very well to. Hegel goes great with KEF speakers. The DAC, preamp, and amp section inside will put the Hint6 to shame. Once you demo a Hegel you will get it. This store in the Chicagoland area is a dealer for all of this if you want to check this out or demo things in your home. Actually Holm Audio is having a KEF, Ayre, and Nordost demo event this Thursday, December 2nd from 12:00 to 9:00pm. If you call the store they will give you details. 

You may want to read the recent review of the Hegel H95  in audio science review. It measured very poorly.

@martinman  There may be a couple variables in your system causing the DACs you've auditioned to sound very similar. What are you using to stream Amazon Music?  If a computer, then a general purpose computer will never sound as good as a good quality purpose built streamer, especially if you use a USB cable from a computer to your HINT 6 integrated.  What's the quality of your Internet network in your home?  Make sure you're not using WiFi for Amazon Music playback and use good quality Ethernet cables. I recently added an EtherREGEN device to my home network that feeds my Streamer/DAC and was amazed at the SQ improvement. 

It will help if you can isolate everything in your system used to play Amazon Music.  One way to do this is to get access to a decent CD player preferably connected to your HINT 6 via XLR cables.  Select a Redbook CD you're very familiar with.  Then look for the same album on Amazon Music at Redbook CD resolution and compare the SQ. In most cases, the SQ of the local CD will sound better but it should be a close fight.  If you find that the local CD is noticeably better, then use the free 14-day Qobuz trial as many on this forum have suggested.  This will help you compare Amazon Music to Qobuz. If you still find the local CD sounds better, then it's likely the computer or USB cable or both that are your weak links in the chain.

I have no horse in this race, but arafiq's post should be required reading every time someone decides to post in any forum here. It applies to every topic in this hobby. Emphasis on hobby. Well done sir.

I also think there’s a bit of a messiah complex at work here. There are certain underlying assumptions that form the basis, and certainly the tone, that is evident in many posts ...

1. Most audiophiles are fools who can be parted with their money easily. Since I’ve read about specs and multiple wikipedia articles on the technical aspects, it is my moral obligation to save these fools from themselves.

2. The higher DACs, or any audio component for that matter, are nothing more than unscrupulous manufacturers and designers who are out to fleece the audiofools.

3. I have a background in network engineering, and therefore that makes me an expert on all things ’audio’. I need to save the uninformed audifools from themselves.

4. Specs are vastly superior to actual listening experience. I can tell everything about a component by reading specs, graphs, and charts. Actual listening is vastly overrated. The audifools are incapable of understanding things like implicit bias, double blind tests, and pretty much anything. I need to save the audiofools from themselves,

5. Those who buy high end DACs only do it because they've got money to burn and its more about bragging rights than actual music enjoyment. It's my moral obligation to set these pretentious bastards right.

6. If I can't hear a difference between a $99 and $10K DAC, this must be the ultimate truth. Everybody else who claims otherwise is an audiofool.

7. I’m the smartest man on this forum, therefore anyone who disagrees with me is an audifool.

Probably not, the BluOS experience is still the same which is pretty decent. Nevertheless, the new Node is a good upgrade from the Node 2i, adding additional features like eARC HDMI, USB Audio output (eventually) and enhanced touch screen. The Node also has high resolution audio capacity (up from 192kHz to 384kHz) thus giving the impression of better sound quality as all in one unit.

@lalitk 

I will probably begrudgingly buy one when they release USB support, and after giving others time to reveal any bugs and have them fixed. For a niche product, you really can't beat the price, and the compatibility with streaming services does not appear matched by others.

Thought I was on an audio forum, not a competition for village idiot of the year. Hang in there candymount, you have a chance at fame.

@lemonhaze ,

I am taking George Carlin's advice and keeping a list ....

It's too bad millercarbon isn't into digital...

I too recently purchased the Pontus II. That DAC made the most improvement on my system.

The Cornwall IV was driven by Audio Research LS2+Parasound A21 with Node 2i. The the Willsenton R8 in place of ARC LS2+A21. It was better in most way. Then the Muzishare X9 SET yields the most listening pleasure for the types of music I prefer, vocal, jazz, acoustic instrument and blue.

When the Pontus II inserted into the system, wow. You can read all the praises from established reviewers for details. All my family members commended how musical sounding, life like sound with the Pontus II.

Cindy is actually not wrong. Here is my opinion on the disconnect. 

What sounds good or best with DACs and other electronics is mostly art. Art IMO sounds better than transparency. That is why I don't buy products based on measurements. I don't care for accuracy products such as Benchmark, Genelec, Kii 3, etc.  

If you have $100 the Schiit Modi 3 DAC is transparent. There are less transparent DACs that cost much more of course, and IMO they DO sound better.

I like tubes, 2nd order harmonics, low feedback circuits, vinyl, and even some frequency response artistic voicing that is non-linear. 

For me, the goal of hifi is to make the original recording sound better and more life-like or believable in my room.

The goal for me is NOT to faithfully reproduce the sound as the artist and engineers intended. 

Cindyment I appreciate you bringing your perspective to the table. Most objectivists who come here are obnoxious trolls with bad social skills, but you are an exception! 

My profile name is my name, but my name is not Cindy ... if anyone cares :-) .... and thank you for the compliment @seanheis1 though you probably give my social skills a better rating than they deserve.

We don't have the ears, brain, sound system or listening room of the artist, or engineer, so trying to replicate that is a fools errand. I have implemented a system that is as "perfect" as I could make it, then I twist it all out of shape with DSP, often changing the processing based on genre, but also mood, target listening volume, even for a particular piece. If I didn't start with the former, I could never do the latter. My "journey" is no different from other audiophiles, I just took a different route to get there, and hopefully ended up with something more flexible along the way. I suspect what I have done is more the "future" of the industry.

We agree with the general consensus that there are minor differences between higher-quality DACs across a fairly extreme price range.  In fact, systems with too much complexity sometimes encounter issues that can deteriorate sound quality. 

We strongly believe that when properly applied Digital Signal Processing can provide a quantum leap in system performance.

For example, Dirac Live DSP processing corrects non-linearities in the entire system, including the DAC, cabling, power amplifier, speakers and the room effect on the audio.

So our conclusion is that a well integrated digital music source, digital signal processor, DAC and analog output section, when combined with Dirac will take you to the next level in resolution and realism. 
 

I recently had the opportunity to try out some of the budget DAC's in my system to see how they compared to my AN DAC5 Sp, which I consider to be an outstanding dac. The Dac 5 has had quite a few mods ( 768K Femtosecond input receiver ) as well as the AN silver oil caps and the super regs. I bought a Gustard x26 pro for my office system and had access to a D90 Topping w a linear supply.

Granted this was a HUGE spread in price and I felt the result was interesting.

Not to brag but my system is super high end and I have been financially blessed but the result is interesting and worth consideration.

Bottom line is both of the Sabre dac's sound very, very much alike in comparison to the DAC 5 and unfortunately are nowhere near the realm of the AN dac. I somewhat regret spending the bit more for the Gustard but it is much easier to hook cables to and is balanced like my system. I fed the Gustard in NOS and internal OS, 24/384 from HQ Player and 16/44 straight. I have 14 tb of mucic, mostly SACD rips and the SACD was where the Sabres began to show promise but never gave the holographic air and soundstage that the DAC 5 did.

PRAT was in a quantum league higher with the DAC 5.

Images are confined to the space between the speakers with the Sabre Dacs vs an immersive wide and deep stage on the AN.

The Gustard was the strongest bass but not really that defined, however on a bright system it may be the ticket.

The interesting thing was the 2 low priced dacs were extremely listenable and any flaws were just shortcomings vs objectionable flaws.

Bottom line is both of the Sabre dac’s sound very, very much alike in comparison to the DAC 5 and unfortunately are nowhere near the realm of the AN dac. I somewhat regret spending the bit more for the Gustard but it is much easier to hook cables to and is balanced like my system. I fed the Gustard in NOS and internal OS, 24/384 from HQ Player and 16/44 straight. I have 14 tb of mucic, mostly SACD rips and the SACD was where the Sabres began to show promise but never gave the holographic air and soundstage that the DAC 5 did.

@dht4me , I would never expect the Audionote to sound remotely like the Topping or Gustard. Not even close. The Topping and Gustard are designed to replicate the waveform as accurately as possible and would do this with far more precision than the Audionote. With the Audionote, you are buying art. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way. The goals of the two are completely different.

Being pragmatic, the image should be confined between the speakers. That is all that is possible on the recording. What the Audionote creates is artificial. Again, I do not mean that disrespectfully, the goals are just different.

Depending on the room acoustics, and personal preference, I expect many would prefer the Gustard and Topping to the Audionote, just as many would prefer the Audionote. Again, being pragmatic, I expect the Gustard/Topping has, under critical listening a touch more detail, and again, under critical listening the imaging may be sharper, even if the image is not as wide. The Audionote, if like other Audionote DACs is unlikely to have a very flat response, rolling off in the lows and highs, hence why you would find the Gustard bass heavy in comparison, and in your system, that may not come across flabby, and ditto while the Gustard will come across brighter. If you don’t have a well treated room, rolling off the highs and lows can also increase the listening pleasure, and will improve what people call PRaT.

I will go out on a limb, and please don’t take it the wrong way, but I highly suspect that I could take out the caps, superreg, and upgraded input receiver and you would never know it unless I told you.

You can buy a dac for $20. Many of the dacs built into some integrated amps probably only cost $20, can you hear a difference to a $1000 purpose built dac with separate linear power supply? If you cannot get a new hobby.

@henry53 ,

And if I could show you that YOU could not tell the difference between some $20 DAC and a lot of $1,000 DAC, would you promise to quit the hobby?

Perhaps you can explain how other than bandwagon jumping, your posts helps this discussion?

Being pragmatic, the image should be confined between the speakers. That is all that is possible on the recording. What the Audionote creates is artificial. Again, I do not mean that disrespectfully, the goals are just different.

Agreed. My tube amps do the same thing and I love them for it. Deeper and wider feels more real...the art creates the magic.

It's hard to get the magic with IC chips and switcher power supplies. Linear power supplies, ladder DACs with discreet parts...that I believe gives us the harmonic distortion that makes everything sound better....unless you like clinical and exacting sound. 

This site is dedicated to hifi measurement. Saying that it appears odd that many responders claim there is no difference between say a $5 dac and a $5000 dac. Clearly in these tests your average cheap dac measures differently to an expensive dac, however they still appear to sound the same.  If this is so, what are we measuring and why? This remains a serious question not a mere slight on individuals.

Because DACs measurements are different doesn't mean you can hear differences or pick which is which in blind testing. Being more realistic I would say some $200 DACs would be hard if not impossible to guess better than chance from some $5000 ones. 

I would not in any way call the Audio Note sound euphoric, syrupy or harmonically distorted. It on the contrary is very fast, open, clean and ever so slightly lean. There is a separation of instrumental textures and dynamic contrasts that make the Dac's I mention seem very sedate or compressed. There is much better HF extension with the AN even with the vivid setting on the Gustard. The Gustard bass is simply not as defined or could be considered woolly. Most people do not have single speakers that do true deep bass with the quality of my CS5i's or Divas and I would guess that the Gustard was voiced for bass shy smaller speakers. I have had many uber components in my systems over the years mainly from working in high end audio shops in NYC in the heyday of high end there and experienced what separates mid fi from high end in spades. The you are there sound is still a very expensive proposition in digital regardless of new tech. What is amazing is there is absolutely nothing record breaking about the AD1865 chip at 18bit and a 768k sample limit but the implementation makes all the difference.

The bottom line in my posting was to elucidate that there is a huge economic chasm to get the "quantum leap" that the OP was referencing and in my experience it comes down to costly implementations.

Would it be unfair to equate the ASR meausrement crowd with Covid? Some people love that it exists and enjoy talking about it while others get mad at its very existence. Me, it doesnt much matter to me…I am vaccinated against Amir’s dastardly measurements.

Seriouslt though, if someone is certain their $50 dac is better than your $xx dac, who cares. They are happy, you are happy, life is good.