@jj77, Funny how all hobbies and our progress in life changes our perspective. When we are younger and do not have the cash to blow, we feel even a $100 cable is a rip-off. When we do better in life and have a good disposable income we feel that a $2000 cable is a very good investment. So nothing wrong with $85k amps. Forget $85k amps, nothing wrong with $200k amps as well. When you have the resources and the designer has the ability to build cost-no-object machines, everything is a very good investment. You live only once, so why not enjoy it? None of us complain about a $2.5 million Bugatti.
Good things come to those who wait. I've been trading up since the mid 80s. Started with kits and low priced gear. Now have a system I could never afford all at once -- including Passlabs XA mono amps and top of the line Cary tube preamp. Total cost over 30 years is actually quite modest. Imagine spreading car payments over that period of time. And the stereo was sounding better and better throughout the whole time.
With Nelson Pass help and open use if his first watt schematics I build a premium part reference FIRST watt F-6 A dual mono amp 2x of everything and still 50wpc into 4 ohms. By far the most helpful amplifier expert to the DIY, community .
Not the case of course with Pass, the manufacturing of their case alone is several hundred dollars. A FEW THOUSAND MAYBE you can't make their chassis for a few hundred.
Au contraire Schubert, I have been paying attention, and I was indeed speaking of the U.S. as a country. We all know the rich have been getting richer and the poor poorer since Reagan instituted his failed trickle-down economic policies.
That is a false statement:
During the Regan administration his policies had corporate revenues doubling and tripling which in turn lead to the largest economic growth, increase hiring or jobs, increase in pay, and all people made more money. Do your homework please. The rich always get richer because they invest and take risk to increase their wealth.
I’ve seen the stats from around the world. Swedes are a pretty contented bunch, even with their very high taxes. At least they get something for them!
I guess then they are happy being the new rape capital of the world according to CNN!
My sisters daughter lives in Germany, married to a German, and they too are happy with their system.
Really, $20 billion spent on immigration and it is considered to be a disaster in Germany. CNN again.
I don’t know many Americans who are; in a few decades our educational system has become the joke of the world, our health care system is a mess, we are falling behind in moving into a future-based economy---Coal? Are you kidding me?!
America spends more money on education than some countries have in total so it is not the money that is at fault. Health care costs are going up and choices are going down unless you have no income and can get free health care, the rest of us are paying for that benefit.
Coal while not the best alternative to most of us, unless live in West Virginia where there are no jobs for the miners and their families or business alternative opportunities for the majority of the older working class. I was in WV three weeks ago, one of the poorest states. Let them starve you bet.
As far as mega buck products, try and manufacture something. The milled solid aluminum chassis start at $1K and up. The box and packing materials cost about $150 each. Pay your 35% taxes, liability insurance, etc. Parts costs are not cheap unless you are using the lowest priced capacitors, resistors, transformers, etc. Design a chassis with all of the necessary holes punched out, yeah that can take from 3 to 10 prototypes, etc. Then when it is all ready, advertise, get reviews, find dealers to carry your product line for free, etc.
Many people IMO have never heard what these high priced components can deliver. Go spend time at a reviewers home and learn what they hear and how their system sounds. You won't get there with most of the cheaper level products. But this is a matter of ones own choice. You can get really great sound if you can build a system with lower priced components it can be done but that usually takes time.
Most people don't know what their missing in their system until they experience the change or difference. I ones had a well know preamp that I thought was really good for the money I paid for it. THen I had another well know mfg preamp and that is when I realized what my preamp lacked. I had to experience the difference because I did not think my preamp could be outperformed in the areas it now lacked. I also modify, repair and build components. Recently I told one of my first customers that the new version of the product I build for him was better by my new design. He said how much better and I said 100% improvement. He told me not possible. I drove out to see him three weeks ago. within the first 10 minutes he said, yeah you are right.
So my point being it costs real money to make a statement product or one that the mfg feels is better than the competition. Research and development is expensive. You make many prototypes to find something you think is very good, and the cost of parts is not cheap. Experience is what most people need to have before they make general statements.
Sorry for the rant, Happy Listening everyone!
bdp24 not picking on you in anyway and I am not dem or rep just a person who understands economic polices and and has studied economics, budgets, etc,. that the government indicates on its website.
As stated above, a lot of the ueberhighend kit is sold overseas. Good. I like to see US products exported. Bless Mr. Pass, maybe he can single handily restore our balance of trade.
I think this would be a great opportunity to ask Audiogon to implement a feature on every sale asking buyer and seller to donate a small percentage to world hunger. Perhaps even an "I will if you will" check box so both parties feel compelled. Good feelings all around and each party enjoys their new gear or sale knowing they helped the less fortunate, and with minimal effort or thought.
I’m a dealer for the above mentioned BHK amps and they are keepers. No purpose (expecially with the mono’s) to go above this level. The sonic benefits will come from investing in other areas of the system. (Or perhaps tube rolling which I haven’t yet tried)
If you want some Pass magic, grab a First Watt amp. As long as you have speakers that will mate well, reasonably efficient, you will never look back. Very happy J2 owner
Stfoth, you are correct. If you browse the Audiogon Blue Book, it is clear that both the volume and the price of most high end gear took a huge hit in 2008-2009, making bargains available. Since then, some items have maintained that price level, while others have continued to decline simply based on age. But the early 2000's were a sellers market and prices were quite high by today's standards.
That said, in the late 60's or 70's with even a modest middle class income could afford "hi-fi" with good sounding gear. Truly terrific gear like the first Magnapans, the Rabco SL-8 straight line, etc.were affordable to a lot of people, much more than they would be today. I would nominate that period as the best market for (then) high-end gear.
Harrylavo, I do agree that the 60s were also a great time to put together a great system. Quality tube equipment, with many available in kit form. So many more great choices today however. I currently own a Dynaco ST-70 and AR 3A TT, however have them for sale.
You need to compare them with other products in the same price league. There are always people who can afford it.
The biggest problem I have seen in the last 3-4 years is that most people are only able to create a rather low level out of the loudspeakers and amps they own
Even when you spend a lof of money on poweramps it will not solve this limitation. People who have audio as a hobby and even the people who work in audio don’t know a lot about the real properties each loudspeaker owns.
The choices they make are only founded on trial&error. This means that they try differerent combinations. But they still have no idea about which properties they take out and which ones they bring in by changing to another amp, source, cable or loudspeaker.
That is why trial&error is audiogambling. There is no discussion possible to find a good foundation to create any audio system by trial&error.
The properties are just one part. The other reasons why people are only able to get a low level in quality is based on the parts which influences the sound and stage in a nagative way.
We see that most people in audio and also who use it as a hobby have only a little knowledge in:
- the acoustics - electricity - smog - high freqency noise - magnetism
And what diversity in sound is and why it is the most important part to reveal the emotion the music possesses.
When audio goes on by trial&error the facts show that you are only able to use a low level out of any amp.
An amp like the XS150 and XS300 will not make it more easy compared to a cheaper amp. When you are not able to understand properties and are aware of all the parts who influences the sound and stage negatively audio is one big gamble.
Money will never solve the problems and limitations people create by trial&error.
bo1772, I'll say it once, and then never again (unlike you). You have told us all what we don't know well over 1000 times. To save us all from expensive future mistakes, and all of the "useless" trial and error, why don't you once and for all write a useful thread outlining all of your secrets to great sound? If you don't want to share, then remain quiet and go your way.
Bigkidz - give it up. Coal is dead. Those people need jobs, not environmental destruction they won’t even benefit from. You want a winning industry? Wind power. Solar. Those industries are booming. They need workers..
Until the industry dies because air pollution is ok again. Otherwise, most of your facts were factual while looking at the argument from a completely different perspective and in the process glossing over the main point of rising income inequality. That is a proven fact. Yes, the rich take risks. But they are now taking greater and greater shares of the reward.
That said, expensive amps are hardly our most pressing issue as a society. Not worth freaking out over, at least.
Unfortunately Wind and solar don't begin to compete economically with coal. Coal is inexpensive and clean coal burning electric power stations are just as practical as clean gasoline cars with catalytic converters and both have ultra low emissions.
It would be great if Wind and Solar energy were cheaper than Coal but they are 5 to 10 times more costly than coal power at current coal prices.
Hi Bigkidz, I appreciate your well reasoned comments that reflect wisdom and keen observation. I am optimistic about the country's direction and leadership over the next four years. Time will surely tell. A vibrant rather than a stagnant economy is a vital necessity as step one of an evolving process. Charles
Audio starts with music. Without music there is no audio. But without audio there is still music.
Music always will be the most important part to buy audio. That is why the focus should be more regarding on how music sounds in real and how it being projected in space.
When we take a look to audio in general in many situations audio sounds so much different than the music sound in real.
What are the most common limitations?
First of all the sound in many sitations is a lot different than how music sounds in real. The biggest limitations these days is the lack of diversity in sound. This are all the layers from the lowest till the highest frequencies.
When I ask to people who also work in audio if they have an idea how instruments and voices sound and being formed as a shape during listening? Most don’t know. So my questions is; what are you selling?
They say; we let other people choose there own sound and system. Because we are learned that audio is a matter of personal taste.
Now I am aware that this is not the truth and the truth is totally different than people think it is.
What is the most important part of music? That is the emotion it owns. So you need to understad how the emotion works for us human beings. When I ask again to people who also work in audio how the emotion of us humans work and when we can feel it?
Most don’t know. Again I ask the question to these people; what do you sell? And how do you sell audio?
We let people choose their audio system themselves. Because we believe (audioblindness, based on the fact that we believe what ’others’ said to us) it is a personal matter.
When you don’t know how music, instruments and voices sound, how for God sake you will choose your personal audio system?
When we audition systems in audioshops, at audioshows or at the studio of a distributer almost all sets are incomplete based on what we call Tru-Fi.
This means based on facts that these systems all miss essential parts which are needed to create a realistic sound and stage like in real.
Systems which people choose by personal trial&error are almost always incomplete. And we can easilly explain in parts that their systems are incomplete. And by Tru-Fi we add parts whih are missing.
I never met a person who said to me; I prefer my own incomplete sound stage. What we do is, we make their systems more complete.
This means we add essential parts which influences our emotion. Because we work by the human emotion and what we can hear.
Almost all systems bought and created by trial&error are 2-dimensional. But in real music is being played in a 3-dimensional stage. When we audition most systems at audioshows, shops and at distributers the stage is flat till about 1 metre in depth.
Only when you understand the DNA/properties a loudspeaker owns you know which properties you need to reveal all the different properties a loudspeaker owns.
We sell only Monitor Audio in a physical 3-dimensional sound. This makes these speakers outperform their competitors. But when we look at shops, shows and the distributer the stage is 2-dimensional in almost each single situation.
This proofs that trial&error never will be able to reveal all the properties out of the Monitor Audio. It is like you play at the level of about 25% of the 100% it could create.
I play with Pass Labs since 2009. I owned different monos and poweramps ever since. I focussed on the DNA of Pass labs to use them maximum. Based on Tru-Fi, it is very easy that is misses an essential part of Tru-Fi.
Even when you use their poweramps and pre amps togheter, it is very easy to explain and proof that individual focus of voices and instruments is not as intimate and shaped as in real.
I owned the Pass labs XP-20 for about 2 years. It is a good pre amp, but not a stunning one like many of their poweramps are. This is based on the fact that when you use a pre amp which is able to create a stunning intimate physical stage with the right proportion of instruments and voices you will get a higher level in realism and also in emotion with any Pass Labs poweramp.
You cannot compare a Pass Labs with a Parasound. Based on the fact that most Pass Labs amps are able to reveal more diversity in the middle frequencies. It will make the music so much more emotional and intense.
I learned to distract all the properties of each single part of an audio system. This made me use Pass Labs so much more effective. When you are able to understand the advantages and limitations of a Pass Labs poweramp you can make it complete to use the properties which are missing out of other parts in your system.
We only work by properties. For example the Monitor Audio Platinum II can reveal more details and information than other brands could give us.
Their techniques and properties give us a huge 3-dimensional stage. With a life like physical intimate presentation of instruments and voices. As a bonus we also can let people hear more easy diversity in height of voices and instuments in particular.
I reveal properties out of cables, poweramps, pre amps, sources any many accessoires for audio. It is my goal to create the highest level in quality out of any loudspesker.
When you create your system by personal trial&error you have no idea which properties you use. Thst is why we call trial&error audiogambling.
You try things out and bring in other parts like cables, sources and many orther parts. When I ask a simple question to the people who work by trial&error they understand that it is ineffective and just one big gamle.
When I ask to all people who work like me for about 20 years in audio: Which properties do you take out when you take this loudspeaker, amp, source or cable out of your system? And which properties do you bring in when you chnage it by this loudspesker, amp, source or cable?
The aswer is; I don’t know. This proofs that they have no idea why the stage and sound is what we hear. And that is why trail&erro is so ineffective to create the best sound possible.
The facts show and proof that a system chosen by trail&error is not the right way.
I have to admit that a client of mine made my aware in januari 2016 that audio is not a personal taste and that I proved this to him. It took my time to understand what he meant.
Now we can proof it very easily and that it gives audio a different perspective. I can assure you that this way many of you can create a higher level in quality and emotion than you know now.
Coal is dead. Have you seen what mountaintop mining does? And scrubbers in coal plants do not remove the CO2. That is a huge problem with coal. Natural gas is immensely more environmentally friendly than coal.
Also, the natural gas boom will kill coal. It really won't be the green sector. The green sector and natural gas extraction will and do provide way more jobs than coal ever will. Coal extraction is so mechanized, the need for workers will never be what it was.
I'm for making economic decisions based on data, not emotion. The data does not support coal.
To add to your points bpd24 George H W Bush had to renege on his "read my lips" pledge by raising taxes to pay for the savings and loan debacle brought about by eliminating some of the regulatory policies of the Reagan (or is it Regan) administration. His economic policies truly represented fiscal responsibility and he sure paid the price for it unlike the ones that promise everything that they can't possibly deliver. Not to bash Reagan but the "trickle down" economic policies certainly created growth as it generated more capital but it wasn't offset by spending cuts or raising tax revenues to offset the deficit. The new mantra was deficits don't matter as long as the GDP grows enough to offset the deficits, it's all "relative".
Well actually Reagan DID have to raise taxes as his initial tax cuts were too severe and the deficit exploded. When Jimmy Carter left office, not to use him as a shining beacon of anything, the budget deficit was 69 billion. But there is one thing he did leave, a solar water system on the White House roof that was symbolic of what he saw as America's future, alternative energy development. Reagan in his first act of symbolic contempt towards alternative energy was to remove the collector or why else would he have done it?
So there is no hero in this continuing saga. One thing for certain though, up to the Obama administration there was some degree of civility it not total agreement on issues. In the current atmasphere compromise is a poisonous word to a politician. I certainly hope that the democrats don't get into a quid pro quo with the "just say no" Republican Congress starting in 2010 did or else we'll all get what's coming and most likely deserve. Let's ALL hope that this "tax plan" of the current administration can be refined to meet the needs of our collective nation rather than represent, what I see happening to a greater extent, the gradual phasing in of a plutocracy bought and paid for by rich special interests. As the middle class shrinks more and more this will likely be the outcome. And God forbid if laws only require a majority vote to pass in the Senate! If that happens as it did with the Supreme Court pick it is clear to me that we'll have to sink considerably more before the wake up call sounds off. The scary part of that scenario is how much more damage?
A revamping of our educational system and retraining is the long term answer and it needs to be funded and paid for by tax payer funds, we all need to pay for it! But in the current climate of "what have you done for me today" it is a tough sell. After all, when you can't make ends meet from one day to the next, why should it? People just want to see a brighter future and while it seems the current AND may I add last President wants to deliver, lets hope his understanding grows beyond what he has demonstrated some of us to date, time will tell. Real change will necessarily come from the grass roots of this country. Wake up and be counted people and quit complaining, DO SOMETHING!
PS "
bdp24 not picking on you in any way and I am not dem or rep
just a person who understands economic polices and and has studied
economics, budgets, etc,. that the government indicates on its website."
.....and Paul Krugman the liberal Nobel prize winning economist doesn't understand? Don't know what your point is bigkidz. Having said that I agree totally with you regarding pricing in a business, things that consumer's often don't take into consideration. So far as 150K amps and 500K speakers, it really has nothing to do with me as I certainly am quite unfamiliar with this industry and the cost of things as you are but one thing I can do is :). The new business model and more of what's to come maybe?
I always appreciate your comments on this site. As we both have noted, truthfully only time will tell, none of us possess a crystal ball for future outcomes. democate/left ’generally’ are Keynesians and republicans/right are "generally" supply side. I realize that you and I will "respectfully" disagree but I’ll choose the latter and you most likely the former.
That’s fine by me I’ll always respect your perspective and viewpoints. We’re simply two individuals who reflect our respective life experiences.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but this back pedaling on environmental and sustainability progress is my major bone of contention with what bigkidz elaborated in his post. We can ignore the problems we know of at our peril. Not to mention the economic advantage of being a leader in these fields.. As we step back, China stands to gain in terms of global leadership and economic clout with regards to sustainable tech. The rest of the world is still moving ahead in these areas, whether we do or not.
Imagine the human race as a colony of bacteria on a petri plate. the agar it feeds on is the earth. we "know" what we have to do for our long term survival but we don't have the will, even with the lives of our children at stake. We don't have the will because we are in a race to see who gets to consume the most agar while there's still some left. We have the intelligence and the technology to lead wonderful fulfilling lives, and yet we are still living in a feudal society where only the few, the "entrepreneurs" get to live like kings. We refuse to modernize our social systems so that everyone can get a good education and find out what they really want to do with their lives, and then have the opportunity to do it. As for Pass equipment, it's not as "pretty" as some foreign makes, but it sounds awfully good (IMHO) compared to just about anything out there. You do NOT have to spend a lot of money to experience this. I.E. take the little Aleph-3 (class-A, 30wpch) which goes for (about) $1.5K. It can drive a great number of speakers and sounds wonderful. Honestly it gets better than this- but (really) not all that much. If you don't have a lot of money, then you don't really have to worry about it.
I respect you as well Charles, always well reasoned and respectful, more of what is required. The only thing that has changed over the past 8 years is the total unwillingness to compromise. There is one thing I really am not sure that you recognize or acknowledge Charles is the factor that "money" has come into the equation ("Citizens vs United"). We are truly being brainwashed by both sides. Now who is doing a better job is open to debate and subject to the philosophical perspectives that you assign to each of us.
PS I feel as Bigkidz but he a bit right of center me a bit left. To a far leaning right winger, I’m a "flaming liberal" to a far leaning leftest I’d probably be considered a traitor. See what I mean Charles, the divide I mean, how do we start talking to each other again?
I HEAR you Toddverrone and could not agree MORE! There are much more important issues in the big picture of our future and we better wake up soon!
Hmm. Yesterday I posted a response to bigkidz post which responded to my previous one, and then left for my gig. Today it’s gone. I wonder what I said that was unacceptable? I admitted that I didn’t disagree with the notion of it being considered not appropriate for this forum, but not any more than the comments of many others. I didn’t use profanity, slurs, or make personal attacks, but I did explain the difference between Regan---Donald, Reagan’s Chief of staff, and a former CEO of a certain well known Wall Street investment firm ( I better not use the name, as that may also be the reason for the post’s removal)---and Reagan---Ronald, the President.
My studio has both ,audiophile system a vintage system and a real world system ,drums , guitars- electric, acoustic ,piano.and I am deaf in one ear ...emotions in all systems ,and easy to tell the difference . Enjoy it every time you flip that switch .
If I recall correctly Bdp24 you referred to the President as the "Trumpster" a clear sign of disrespect, you should be more careful with your words :^). If your post was removed as somehow being inappropriate for this forum, I hope mine is as well. Political discussion is not and SHOULD not be permitted on this forum, audio subjects only.
I do stand by my comments regarding my respect for Charles as an all around good guy and Bigkidz for pointing out to others that might not consider the excellent points he made about a business pricing it’s products. As far as the price of products and whether it is fair or reasonable, the point of the op’s original question I am totally neutral. If a business can convince a person to exchange his money for a product who should care but the two parties involved in the transaction? My points about social and financial inequity in this country and the seemingly lack of concern from some corners regarding this indisputable fact have nothing to do with the question originally asked but might be by some considered related.
I agree tubegroover, Audiogon should be a politics-free zone. I myself would not start such a discussion, but once it’s going.....
My use of the term Trumpster was a while back, not in this thread. Yes, the term is disrespectful---I do believe he has earned it. Ask anyone who lives in New York! At any rate, I shall refrain from engaging in any such discussion in the future, no matter how provoked. I did find it odd that someone apparently so enamored of Reagan would not know how to spell his name!
If a business can convince a person to exchange his money for a product
who should care but the two parties involved in the transaction?
In a purely economic sense this statement would only be true in an economy with unlimited resources. It doesn't really apply to a crowded small rocky planet circling a medium mass star. And then there are the moral questions. Should a 13 year child be able to sell their bodies to adults for sexual purposes? It only effects the two parties, right? If one dictator wanted to sell weaponized nerve gas to another dictator, is it still viewed as a closed, private party transaction? Why can't cocaine and other narcotics simply be sold on street corners? If someone wants to buy it and someone wants to sell it, it should be okay with everybody else?
We all have a stake in what each other does. It's the basis of family, community, nationality and ultimately humanity. No man's an island.
I sometimes share the bandstand with a piano player who is a hardcore Libertarian. I actually truly respect that political bent---limited government (including the lack of laws prohibiting personal behavior greatly disapproved of by many Conservatives---drugs, prostitution, etc.---at least publicly ;-), fiscal responsibility, etc. If you want government to do as little as possible, Libertarianism is the way. But I don’t think that’s what most Americans actually want. As one published author recently opined, "We’re all Socialists now". To one degree or another, though Conservatives won’t admit it. By the way, that piano player is also a Scientologist. Weird, ay?!
"We all have a stake in what each other does. It's the basis of
family, community, nationality and ultimately humanity. No man's an
island."
I agree with this statement on a personal level. Unfortunately not everyone sees things as we bleeding hearts do Onhwy61, it is an idealistic view. My point was as a simple transaction, between two parties what is the problem? One could make a similar comment regarding a component or product that is a fraction of the 85K figure above, say 5K, would it then be an issue? It certainly would be just as unreachable or unrealistic a price to pay for the vast majority of people on this planet.
Your point about a sexual transaction between a 13 year old child and an adult is immoral and illegal and is not equivalent in any way to a sales transaction of an 85K amp between two adults. So far as drugs being legal, I just wonder how much more effective our resources would be if we spent the money on educationing our children on the perils of drug use, a plan similar but expanded to the "just say no" campaign of the 80's. Where is the leadership?
To your greater point Bdp24 the unfortunate fact of our Republic and the democracy at large is that folks often come to the point that they don't want to pay for the benefits provided for all, time to drain that swamp! Often their views are skewed by special interest forces that have a completely unrelated agenda. Many would rather be an island, it gives them a sense of control in a world that gradually seems to be losing it's bearings. Why should a wealthy person that can afford any health care plan he chooses or afford to send his child to any school he wants be obligated to pay for the inefficiencies of what is currently available? It seems history, economics and ethics might be additional required classes for all of us. It is just remarkable the degree of ignorance in our wealthy nation and it seemingly is getting worse. When almost 50% of the adult population can not name at least one Supreme Court Justice how can they possibly understand the importance of the Supreme Court in our system of Government?
PS Onhwy61 to your question about arms an drugs why shouldn't a private citizen, by rights provided by the 2nd amendment, be permitted to purchase any weapon he chooses? Why not an M60, why should we be limited?
Tubegroover, I as well thought the attempted analogy of minors exploited and forced into sex trafficking compared to financially able adults engaging in perfectly legal retail purchasing/commerce was a poor one. Since the advent of the Johnson era "Great Society " trillions of dollars have been spent and redistributed with sadly little to show for this massive effort. After 5 decades of this experience I believe that enough data sampling is available to judge the benefits honestly. Charles
Actually Charles, it really began with Roosevelt’s New Deal, which was a massive undertaking, at great cost, to save the U.S. from the great Depression. Republicans/Conservatives have been trying to erase it since the 1950’s!
tubegroover, my sister had a husband (now deceased) who was blind, the result of at a young age picking up a blasting cap on the farm he grew up on in Oregon. On one drive into Portland my sister commented on some new bike lanes which had been installed on some streets (bikes are huge in Portland--odd with all the rain), which outraged him. "Why should I have to pay for them?" was his comment, for the obvious reason. I was tempted to ask him why other taxpayers should have to pay for the public High School his 20-year old was still going to. The kid was on his third try at making it through his senior year. The husband was a very loud, argumentative, opinionated watcher of a certain cable TV news station (I better not name it---might ruffle the censor’s feathers). There was no such thing as a civil discussion with the guy. Don’t miss him at all, especially as was also not nice to my sister.
Well Charles I respect your opinion but I think plenty of good has come from both the Great Society and the New Deal. Seniors have better access to health care and aren’t living in abject poverty with much shorter life spans as they were before. If we eliminate these programs, or dramatically scale them back as many want, I feel in ALL fairness that all Government provided pension and health care plans including Military be eliminated/scaled back accordingly as well, that means you too Congress. Let’s REALLY drain the swamp and quit pussy footing around. The point is that people want what they say they don’t it’s just they either don’t want to pay, they pay too much or someone else should. Another common theme is to find a scapegoat, welfare mothers for example. In other words, plenty of opinions with few facts and understanding.
Bdp24 your story about your brother in law is just so typical. I have a brother in law who does listen but has a very Military perspective, his father is a retired full bird. We’ve had some interesting discussions and I like him but we think very differently. There is one thing however he is bound by, his racism and xenophobia which he was carefully taught from childhood, he really can’t help himself. "You’ve got to be carefully taught" check out the song from the Roger’s and Hammerstein’s "South Pacific". Amazing how relevant it is to this day. After all this is an audio site so he should at least attempt to keep the conversation somewhat relevant!
Hi, no problem, we are just 2 people with different outlooks and opinion. You and bdp24 see things one way and I another. Fox news may be an issue for you all but not for me. Conversely you two may relate more to CNN/MsNBC etc, not for me. Obviously they appeal to very different groups, so something for everyone. I understand that and accept the reality that people can and will have polar perspectives and belief systems/foundations. It’s just life. For example I was once a N.Y.Times subscriber and an avid listener of NPR, people change (sometimes LOL). There will always be a left/right -progressive/conservative dividing line and of course those who are somewhere in the middle. It’s the human condition. Oops! This is suppose to be about Pass Labs XS amps LOL.
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