Point of diminishing returns for a Network Streamers?

@lalitk "Given your rest of your system, I am not at all surprised by the very small improvement from U1 Mini. "

You mean my humble system? 🤣 Well when I can afford Genelec 8351B some day, I’ll invest in a Lumin setup... for now the Lindemann Limetree Bridge II is a fabulous sweet spot when paired with  a capable preamp/DAC like RME. 

Have you compared playing a CD vs. streaming the same version of the recording? Does the CD sound better than the stream?

I am running Qobuz through a PC hooked up to my PS Audio PerfectWave Mk II DAC (PWD). I also have the matching PW transport. I have ripped my CD collection (over 4000) to a hard drive. The PC is hooked up to the PWD via a 15' USB cable. One of these days I'll subscribe to Roon but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

I have compared at least half a dozen CDs played through the PW transport and PWD to the same version on Qobuz played through my PC and I can't hear any difference, or at least not a significant difference. Sometimes, maybe, I think I can hear a very slight difference between the two but not significant enough to matter.

The PWD has a reclocking/buffering feature (they call it a "Digital Lens") which is one of the reasons I bought it. I didn't want a separate box for reclocking. Perhaps this is why I'm getting very good results from running through a PC with a USB cable. I recognize that theoretically there should be a whole bunch of noise and degradation by streaming through a PC but I can't hear it.

I can't understand why more people don't use this technique as a reference. IMO the best I can hope for is that a Qobuz stream will sound the same as the CD. When you think of all the gyrations and hoops that a stream must go through to get to your DAC it's amazing that it can sound so good. I certainly wouldn't expect it to sound better than the CD played through the same DAC.

Based on my experience I can't see any reason to spend big bucks on a streamer. I might eventually go with a Node (I didn't rip my SACDs) for convenience but I don't expect it to sound any better than my PC. My system is pretty resolving, consisting of a Krell amp and preamp and Thiel CS6 speakers. Maybe if someone is running a half million dollar system they can detect more differences than I can but for my setup the Qobuz stream sounds as good as the CD which is all I can expect.

everyone agrees that the data (the bits, the ones and zeros) arriving at your DAC is unaffected by the ethernet cable, USB cables, switches, clockers, re-clockers, routers, streamers, computers, It is bit perfect no matter the differences in the above.

Electrical noise, jitter, and other timing may be affected, but the data is not.

so logically, if the final device feeding your DAC is capable of cleaning up the noise and dealing with timing issues, it does not matter what comes before it. 

therefore, get a Mutec MC-3 + USB which will take the USB stream and convert it into an AES or SpDIF stream to feed your DAC. Add a 10 MHz clock to it if you like, but the Mutec is all you need. 

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php

use your Mac Mini or Pi or whatever you want, doesn't matter. There, I just saved you many $1000s , you are welcome.

BTW the idea that if you spend enough $$ on streaming you can rival the best vinyl is amusing

If you want to learn a lot about digital audio, watch the Hans Beekhuyzen Channel on YouTube.

He was a recording engineer for most of his career and explains all things digital in a way everyone can understand.

Lots of useful discussion in this thread. I have an Auralic Aries Mini in a second headphone based system, it’s a great streamer for the money. Should be able to pick one up used for a few hundred bucks. I have more expensive Auralic gear in my main system which has been a definite improvement for me over previous gear including a Mac Mini/Luxman DAC

It appears the HiFi Rose is the cat's pajamas and even doubles as a DAC and preamp and has HDMI outs with ARC.

@rwwear Yes, however, with all the "bells and whistles" are you actually getting a better Dac and Streamer with the Lumin T2 for a similar price since the Lumin does not have movie screens, graphics, etc?

I have Project Streambox S2 and can’t say enough great things about the performance for my ripped library, roon endpoint, radio and the Project player app  When roon was not working the Project always did.  Check it out and Audio Advisor will give a trial period, that’s what I did.

Abery true. But the reviewers love it. And you can use a separate DAC and preamp if you are so inclined.

Abery. The new Lumin model has added HDMI. Which is great in my opinion. But it is more moolah.

@aberyclark few things to consider…

1. mac is decent as Roon core assuming it’s up to spec of what Roon recommends  

2. Roon is very demanding when it comes to resource consumption. Using one machine as roon core and streamer is not the best approach.
 

I have tested my Mac Mini 2018  (Roon core) as a streamer against AURALiC Aries G1 and my current streamer, Lumin U1 Mini. In both cases the Mac Mini was beat. Some of the improvements I noticed were less “digital”, less midrange glare and more relaxed, natural sound. Also lower noise floor, better imaging and soundstage. 
 

I’m not familiar with iFi Zen streamer or the Pro-Ject. But I can highly recommend Lumin. 

“Roon is very demanding when it comes to resource consumption. Using one machine as roon core and streamer is not the best approach.”

@audphile1

I beg to differ. If Nucleus and Mac-Mini or similar devices is your reference, then the answer is YES!

IME, it’s the subpar and lazy approach in the design and implementation of most ROON compatible devices that leading us to believe that a single device serving as Roon core and end point is not optimal. To name a few, take a look at Taiko, Pink Faun, Grimm Audio and Merging Technologies. All these are prime example of how both Roon Core and Renderer can co-exist in a single device and yet yield to a sublime streaming audio experience, provided your rest of the system is up to par. I am just amazed by my Merging Technologies +player abilities to render captivating streaming experience, all from a single box.

I hope designers at Lumin and Esoteric take cues from aforementioned brands and eliminate the need for external computer for Roon Core, it is not at all necessary based on my experience with +player. 

@lalitk I was commenting within the context of the original post. Perhaps I should have clarified. And yes there are units out there that excel at streaming while running as roon core. Without a doubt.

I had a Lumin U1 Mini, got curious and built a Ropieee pi4 with pi2AES HAT into same DAC. after about two weeks I felt something was missing... switched back to Lumin and things were back to better. 

They were close, but I could definitely tell something wasn't right, and feel the extra dough was enough to make me stick with Lumin. 

@ghdprentice just curious, what streamer do you have? 

@kray isn't Lumin U1 mini just a streamer? meaning it doesn't have an onboard DAC.. like it's digital bits right? 

@rman9 that is correct.

@kray thanks.. So was your setup the Ropieee pi4 dropping bits to not sound as good as the Lumin U1 mini? 

I had the Lumin U1 mini for a while before I traded it for a Lumin D2, now I am trading that for a Hifi Rose RS150.. Lumin was great, but the demo unit of the Hifi Rose that I brought home is fantastic.. 

I wanted to chime in as I studied this and other threads before upgrading my digital front end recently. My former streamer was the BlueSound Node130 with upgraded power supply, quality cabling, and was hardwired to ethernet. The BlueSound was going into a Denafrips Terminator Plus via coax.

After a ton of research, I found a member selling a Lumin U1 and decided to take the plunge. The rest of setup hasn't changed besides the Lumin, first feeding the DAC via coax and after appreciating the improvement. switched to AES. The difference was not subtle in terms of improvement versus the Node. 

Biggest change by far is the improvement in low and mid-range response, the bass is much more full and the mid-range filled in much more so with the Lumin. Other improvements are what fellow members noted like better detail, blacker background, better separation of instruments and layering, and the soundstage was improved.

So even if you have a good DAC and other gear, a streamer definitely brings big improvement at least for me.

@christianb5s4 agree completely. Between the Gold Note DS10 and the Lumin U1 mini when I used them both as pure streamers feeding into the Luxman D03X DAC, I found the Lumin U1 mini so much better than the Gold Note DS10, (Gold Note was a lot pricier and I tried several of it's filters to no avail)

@rman9 

I own an Aurender N100 and W20SE. My systems are shown under my UserID.

@ghdprentice thank you!! beautiful system.. as you mentioned your penchant for ARC, I went with Luxman.. you can check under my UserID.. My dealer sells Mcintosh/Luxman/ARC/Boulder... I almost went for the ARC CD9 SE 😀

@rman9

Thank you. Your system looks beautiful as well. Luxman has improved from good to great over the last couple decades. Good choice.