Point of diminishing returns for a Network Streamers?

@rman9

Thank you. Your system looks beautiful as well. Luxman has improved from good to great over the last couple decades. Good choice.

@ghdprentice thank you!! beautiful system.. as you mentioned your penchant for ARC, I went with Luxman.. you can check under my UserID.. My dealer sells Mcintosh/Luxman/ARC/Boulder... I almost went for the ARC CD9 SE 😀

@rman9 

I own an Aurender N100 and W20SE. My systems are shown under my UserID.

@christianb5s4 agree completely. Between the Gold Note DS10 and the Lumin U1 mini when I used them both as pure streamers feeding into the Luxman D03X DAC, I found the Lumin U1 mini so much better than the Gold Note DS10, (Gold Note was a lot pricier and I tried several of it's filters to no avail)

I wanted to chime in as I studied this and other threads before upgrading my digital front end recently. My former streamer was the BlueSound Node130 with upgraded power supply, quality cabling, and was hardwired to ethernet. The BlueSound was going into a Denafrips Terminator Plus via coax.

After a ton of research, I found a member selling a Lumin U1 and decided to take the plunge. The rest of setup hasn't changed besides the Lumin, first feeding the DAC via coax and after appreciating the improvement. switched to AES. The difference was not subtle in terms of improvement versus the Node. 

Biggest change by far is the improvement in low and mid-range response, the bass is much more full and the mid-range filled in much more so with the Lumin. Other improvements are what fellow members noted like better detail, blacker background, better separation of instruments and layering, and the soundstage was improved.

So even if you have a good DAC and other gear, a streamer definitely brings big improvement at least for me.

@kray thanks.. So was your setup the Ropieee pi4 dropping bits to not sound as good as the Lumin U1 mini? 

I had the Lumin U1 mini for a while before I traded it for a Lumin D2, now I am trading that for a Hifi Rose RS150.. Lumin was great, but the demo unit of the Hifi Rose that I brought home is fantastic.. 

@rman9 that is correct.

@kray isn't Lumin U1 mini just a streamer? meaning it doesn't have an onboard DAC.. like it's digital bits right? 

@ghdprentice just curious, what streamer do you have? 

I had a Lumin U1 Mini, got curious and built a Ropieee pi4 with pi2AES HAT into same DAC. after about two weeks I felt something was missing... switched back to Lumin and things were back to better. 

They were close, but I could definitely tell something wasn't right, and feel the extra dough was enough to make me stick with Lumin. 

@lalitk I was commenting within the context of the original post. Perhaps I should have clarified. And yes there are units out there that excel at streaming while running as roon core. Without a doubt.

“Roon is very demanding when it comes to resource consumption. Using one machine as roon core and streamer is not the best approach.”

@audphile1

I beg to differ. If Nucleus and Mac-Mini or similar devices is your reference, then the answer is YES!

IME, it’s the subpar and lazy approach in the design and implementation of most ROON compatible devices that leading us to believe that a single device serving as Roon core and end point is not optimal. To name a few, take a look at Taiko, Pink Faun, Grimm Audio and Merging Technologies. All these are prime example of how both Roon Core and Renderer can co-exist in a single device and yet yield to a sublime streaming audio experience, provided your rest of the system is up to par. I am just amazed by my Merging Technologies +player abilities to render captivating streaming experience, all from a single box.

I hope designers at Lumin and Esoteric take cues from aforementioned brands and eliminate the need for external computer for Roon Core, it is not at all necessary based on my experience with +player. 

@aberyclark few things to consider…

1. mac is decent as Roon core assuming it’s up to spec of what Roon recommends  

2. Roon is very demanding when it comes to resource consumption. Using one machine as roon core and streamer is not the best approach.
 

I have tested my Mac Mini 2018  (Roon core) as a streamer against AURALiC Aries G1 and my current streamer, Lumin U1 Mini. In both cases the Mac Mini was beat. Some of the improvements I noticed were less “digital”, less midrange glare and more relaxed, natural sound. Also lower noise floor, better imaging and soundstage. 
 

I’m not familiar with iFi Zen streamer or the Pro-Ject. But I can highly recommend Lumin. 

Abery. The new Lumin model has added HDMI. Which is great in my opinion. But it is more moolah.

Abery true. But the reviewers love it. And you can use a separate DAC and preamp if you are so inclined.

I have Project Streambox S2 and can’t say enough great things about the performance for my ripped library, roon endpoint, radio and the Project player app  When roon was not working the Project always did.  Check it out and Audio Advisor will give a trial period, that’s what I did.

@rwwear Yes, however, with all the "bells and whistles" are you actually getting a better Dac and Streamer with the Lumin T2 for a similar price since the Lumin does not have movie screens, graphics, etc?

It appears the HiFi Rose is the cat's pajamas and even doubles as a DAC and preamp and has HDMI outs with ARC.

Lots of useful discussion in this thread. I have an Auralic Aries Mini in a second headphone based system, it’s a great streamer for the money. Should be able to pick one up used for a few hundred bucks. I have more expensive Auralic gear in my main system which has been a definite improvement for me over previous gear including a Mac Mini/Luxman DAC

If you want to learn a lot about digital audio, watch the Hans Beekhuyzen Channel on YouTube.

He was a recording engineer for most of his career and explains all things digital in a way everyone can understand.

everyone agrees that the data (the bits, the ones and zeros) arriving at your DAC is unaffected by the ethernet cable, USB cables, switches, clockers, re-clockers, routers, streamers, computers, It is bit perfect no matter the differences in the above.

Electrical noise, jitter, and other timing may be affected, but the data is not.

so logically, if the final device feeding your DAC is capable of cleaning up the noise and dealing with timing issues, it does not matter what comes before it. 

therefore, get a Mutec MC-3 + USB which will take the USB stream and convert it into an AES or SpDIF stream to feed your DAC. Add a 10 MHz clock to it if you like, but the Mutec is all you need. 

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php

use your Mac Mini or Pi or whatever you want, doesn't matter. There, I just saved you many $1000s , you are welcome.

BTW the idea that if you spend enough $$ on streaming you can rival the best vinyl is amusing

Have you compared playing a CD vs. streaming the same version of the recording? Does the CD sound better than the stream?

I am running Qobuz through a PC hooked up to my PS Audio PerfectWave Mk II DAC (PWD). I also have the matching PW transport. I have ripped my CD collection (over 4000) to a hard drive. The PC is hooked up to the PWD via a 15' USB cable. One of these days I'll subscribe to Roon but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

I have compared at least half a dozen CDs played through the PW transport and PWD to the same version on Qobuz played through my PC and I can't hear any difference, or at least not a significant difference. Sometimes, maybe, I think I can hear a very slight difference between the two but not significant enough to matter.

The PWD has a reclocking/buffering feature (they call it a "Digital Lens") which is one of the reasons I bought it. I didn't want a separate box for reclocking. Perhaps this is why I'm getting very good results from running through a PC with a USB cable. I recognize that theoretically there should be a whole bunch of noise and degradation by streaming through a PC but I can't hear it.

I can't understand why more people don't use this technique as a reference. IMO the best I can hope for is that a Qobuz stream will sound the same as the CD. When you think of all the gyrations and hoops that a stream must go through to get to your DAC it's amazing that it can sound so good. I certainly wouldn't expect it to sound better than the CD played through the same DAC.

Based on my experience I can't see any reason to spend big bucks on a streamer. I might eventually go with a Node (I didn't rip my SACDs) for convenience but I don't expect it to sound any better than my PC. My system is pretty resolving, consisting of a Krell amp and preamp and Thiel CS6 speakers. Maybe if someone is running a half million dollar system they can detect more differences than I can but for my setup the Qobuz stream sounds as good as the CD which is all I can expect.

@lalitk "Given your rest of your system, I am not at all surprised by the very small improvement from U1 Mini. "

You mean my humble system? 🤣 Well when I can afford Genelec 8351B some day, I’ll invest in a Lumin setup... for now the Lindemann Limetree Bridge II is a fabulous sweet spot when paired with  a capable preamp/DAC like RME. 

The quality of your DAC's USB is critical here! My DAC has Galvanic Isolation, and this makes a big difference. 

You may want to also check out the Primare Prisma NP5 MKII music streamer.  Relatively low cost at $750 and easy set up using ethernet or wifi.  I found it a big improvement over my MacBook Pro using USB into my Esoteric DAC.  More detail, depth and bass.  It does not have USB connection but I found the coaxial connection just as good.  Can easily stream Tidal using MacBook or IPad as the controller.

Yes a linear power supply is a definite plus.  I have a Lumiin U1 Mini and with the external power supply, it is a great product for streaming.  May upgrade at some point later but for now but very happy with the Lumin.  Nice sound stage, good depth and width.  Good micro detail especially on the hi res stuff.  Using Qobuz as the source.  

Interesting topic.

However, IMHO, the discussion is quite haphazard as, perhaps, our forum knows a lot more about amps, preamps, analog sources, than perhaps the new digital stuff.

I’d suggest we first zone in on what qualities are important in a streamer. Decide on what attributes are really important rather than just naming the names of the 5000 or so streamers available. Then, name the streamers with the attributes that we feel are important towards improving SQ.

Does using a good linear power supply generally help? Is one better off with some PC / Mac running Windows / MacOS or should one use a barebones computer (like a NUC running Roon Rock)? Is galvanic isolation important? Should the streamer be connected to the DAC directly via a cable? If so, which kind of cable (this might be DAC-dependent)? Or should it go through via a network bridge (as Roon calls it) or a Network Audio Adapter (as HQPlayer calls it)? If so, then should the bridge be connected to the streamer via ethernet? Is there a benefit to using fiber optic cables instead (perhaps, using a device such as an opticalRendu)? If so, do ’audiophile grade switches’ make a difference? Should one use a reclocking device to improve jitter performance? Does using a good power cord into a source component (like a streamer and a DAC) make a bigger difference than using a good power cord into a downstream component (like a power amplifier)? Would my streamer need a good power cord? Does the quality of cable connection between the streamer --> network bridge / NAA or streamer --> DAC matter? Does the length of the cable & / or impedance matter?

Good CD transport with good dad sounds way better that streaming.

“I’d hear more of a sound difference upgrading the DAC or even the speakers than from upgrading the streamer”

@julie_priest

Exactly! Given your rest of your system, I am not at all surprised by the very small improvement from U1 Mini. You may find the preamp in your DAC good enough but I bet adding a good preamp between your existing DAC and powered speakers should yield a better sound experience than the U1 Mini upgrade. If its me, that’s where I focus on before attempting to change out DAC or Speakers.

I don't care what audiophile reviewers say or what ASR type of fanatic websites "measure". I trust my years, so this is my personal take, based on my gear. 

I heard a very clear upgrade in sound going from Bluesound Node (2021... which I think was Bluesound Node 3.. they dropped the "2i" etc) to Limetree Bridge II. Smaller device, no nonsense, and in over-sampling mode it's super sharp. 

Didn't take too long for me to become curious about the upgrade I'd get from moving to Lumin UI Mini, which gets raves here and on every website I've seen. So I spent 2.5 times the money I'd spent on Bridge II. Realized it only works with a LAN cable... so moved all my stuff around to do that. I heard very little upgrade from Bridge II to UI Mini. 

YMMV. For me, Bridge II is  a sweet spot. I use Tidal, and from streamer it goes into my RME ADEII DAC, then into my Dynaudio powered speakers. I'd hear more of a sound difference upgrading the DAC or even the speakers than from upgrading the streamer. Schitt Modius to RME was a whole different world. 

@larry5729 Larry........did you read my response to your earlier "I can't understand" comment? Just look above please and you will find it

I can't understand why you are using a computer.  I stream by using a BlueSound Node 2i and stream Tidal.  I just sit on my sofa using my iPhone and select music to listen to.  I do want to hear the more expensive streamers to find out if they really sound better,

I'd agree with other posters, point of diminishing returns with streaming setups in general is pretty high dollar. The potential is likely higher than most assume.

i am using a Bluesound Node 21i,  the IFI streamer was great, however it kept disconnecting.  sent 3 back.  this was a year ago.  wonder if they ever got the bugs out?  but in some systems it appears to be working out.  i am using a Ares2 DAC with the Node.  very nice combo 

I finally swapped my Macbook Pro for a Project Stream Box S2 Ultra. It's been noted that by design (John Westlake), an LPS is not necessary.

If your Mac is old enough, it will have an ethernet port.

+1 for the Bricasti M5. Picked up one 3 months ago to use as Roon endpoint in my main rig.  Big jump in SQ over using my Roon Nucleus as a Server/Streamer.

@gerrie I too like the Lindemann products. I recently bought a Limetree Bridge 2, and it has worked flawlessly since day one, and sounds very good running into my LinnenberG Telemann DAC-Pre. 

The nice thing too, looking ahead at where my system may be located, using wireless, the Limetree in my testing has worked better and more stable than my three times more expensive Naim ND5XS2. As far as sound, well, it is a lot closer to my ears than one might think, and I do really love the Naim streamer. 

@larry5729 I had the Node 2 for a year it was great although the internal Dac was fair compared to my Pro-Ject Pre Box s2 digital dac. As a streamer, I would probably still be using it, however, it does not pass thru DSD file without conversion. I have my entire SACD collection ripped to my server. 

Out with the ifi zen, in with the new bluesound NODE since it is supposedly a shoe-in fit with android. Just ordered it! And the journey goes on.

I suggest and use a Bricasti M5 Network streamer. Really nice product and sound is excellent.  It has high quality build including LPS.  I experienced a significant sound improvement over using my Macbook connected to my DAC.  Since M5 is a NAS you can continue using your MAC as long as it’s connected to the same network by ethernet cable. I switched from my macbook to a PC laptop since PC can connect wirelessly. It works with Roon without issue.  I recently bought mine used $1400 but is easily worth msrp.  

I run an Intel NUC as a Roon Core, streaming Qobuz (previously Tidal).  It's Linux based and does one thing with all that power--run the Core.  There's no other software on it.  Linux and Roon. That's it.  

When you use a laptop or personal computer, the unit has many other processes going on given all of the complexity in software these days.  Having a dedicated streamer to feed a DAC that doesn't run other stuff should cut down on noise. 

If I didn't use the NUC I'd use the ifi Zen or Roon Nucleus. 

@soix 

Why? Educated audiophiles can make better choices on what to spend their hard earned money on - whether that information is objective or subjective. I just happen to like to weight my purchasing decisions more towards facts than opinions.

In any case, I really don't care if someone wants to buy or recommend something if it sounds better to them. I'm just trying to point to actual audible phenomena vis-a-vis typical audiophile claims.

All a streamer really needs to do is transmit the bits from local storage or a music service to your DAC intact. It sounds as if your setup already does this. There’s no need to make a change unless you’re detecting noise / pops / ticks / dropouts during playback.
 

 @yage —  Dude, you’re definitely in the wrong neighborhood here.  Maybe try Reddit — your comments may get better traction over there. 

All a streamer really needs to do is transmit the bits from local storage or a music service to your DAC intact. It sounds as if your setup already does this. There’s no need to make a change unless you’re detecting noise / pops / ticks / dropouts during playback.

As a reference, have a listen to the ’Bad cable’ sound sample from this link - What does a bad USB (or other digital audio) cable sound like? This is also what you'd hear from a streamer with suboptimal digital interfaces.

If you’re focused on improving / changing the sound of your system, you’ll get more bang for your buck if you look at different speakers or headphones than electronics IMHO.

+1 for LUMIN streamers.  I too use a Mac, a 2014 vintage MacMini with a 4-core I-7 processor. A few specifics.

The improvement in clarity and the timbre of instruments was very noticeable. I went from (1) a direct USB connection from the MacMini to my DAC to (2) Ethernet from MacMini to a Linksys Ethernet switch, then Ethernet from the switch to the LUMIN, and USB to my DAC.

A second point is that my DAC, pre-amp and the rest of my system are capable of a high level of clarity and resolution. My DAC is an Ayre Acoustics QB-9 with the Twenty upgrade, and I use an Ayre Acoustics K-5xe pre-amp. Both of those units cost between 50% and 75% more than the LUMIN U1 Mini. My Ethernet cables are by Audioquest, but were not overly expensive (about $150 each at the time) and the USB cable from the LUMIN to the Ayre DAC is a Transparent cable. 

While I believe there can be further improvements to my system by going to a dedicated music server vs. the MacMini, and by upgrading my cables and Ethernet, having tried some such tweaks I found the improvements marginal compared to adding the LUMIN streamer. The LUMIN and the Ayre DAC have excellent USB interfaces compared to many if not most comparable products. I think the upgrade that may make the most sense for me is to go to an optical Ethernet system, which I will consider at some point. Optical is inherently less prone to noise than copper wires.

I can also say that to my ears the LUMIN is noticeably superior to the Node 2i, the version I demo'd. I can't speak to the new iFi or Project streamers. As always one's budget has a bearing on the final decision.

Happy listening. 

I wonder why you are using an old computer.  My BlueSound Node 2i streams Tidal without using a computer.  When I purchased the BlueSound Node 2i the retailer convinced me to al purchase a Project DAC.  Adding the Project DAC caused the bass too sound thin, so I sold it on Audiogon.  I have heard some expensive DAC and based on that they do sound better.   

Double plus one (1984 reference) on going from a computer to a streamer or sterner/DAC. Been there, Done that. 

Cleaning up the Ethernet chain w/ EtherREGEN and the works also a wow. 

My only contribution to this discussion is, if you try to connect android to ifi zen streamer, be ready for a mountain of aggravation. My experiment lasted 3 days. Endless attempts of connectivity and android developper settings resulted in a big fat zero signal passing through the zen to my Gustard x26 pro. Luckily I bought the zen from crutch field and, upon request they immediately issued a return label for full refund. Hats off to them. I understand that connecting the zen to iPhone is a much more pleasurable experience. Bottom line, going to all that trouble to connect android to zen is not worth it to me since android to Gustard through bluetooth is a piece of cake and probably not much worse than through the zen since the signal originates from android. My sanity is slowly returning, what a nightmare that was!

@aberyclark,

 I’m using a Node N130 and it does everything I want so far, but I am still mostly a physical media type. The Ifi Zen is supposed to sound great when it works. There have been a lot of complaints about it being wonky. If you buy one, buy from somewhere that has a good return policy.

All the best.

JD