Preamp Output Capacitor: Mundorf Supreme vs. Supreme Silver Oil

Hi @grannyring ,

Thank you!

Alex

Hi Alex.  Cannot say for sure as I did not do a side by side, cap to cap direct comparison.  I was lucky enough to compare both as bypass caps with a .47uf Jupiter copper foil in the same piece of gear.  The Sn-Cu has more of that special musicality and perfect tone. It just sounded a tad more real, natural and spacious.  The silvers were also beautiful, but just not quite as natural or real sounding in this one piece of gear.  

I wish we could rename this thread "Preamp Output Capacitor Discussion."  (or Comparison or Reviews) Super useful experiences and suggestions in here.  Thanks for the contributions.

Hi @grannyring ,

Can you described a sound difference between:  Duelund Silver VS Sn-Cu bypass caps?

Regards,
Alex

My technician was able to install inside Don Sachs pré in addition to the Miflex 0.47 uF the Jupiter Copper Foil 2.2 uF for my Accuphase P-6100 which has 20 Kohms input. It is still early to definitive conclusions but the bass is certainly much more evident, fuller and more realistic timbre compared to Miflex, I believe that due to more correct capacitance. A larger capacitor would not be possible. In the future maybe bypass with the V-Cap CuTF or Duelund copper or silver (0.01 uF).

@t_ramey I think you made the right decision.  As I stated earlier, I wasn't really impressed with the Miflex's, unless you're system is focused entirely on tone at the expense of imaging.

Sweet, thanks wig.

I was wanting to go with the Miflex in my preamp but they’re just too damn big and thankfully grannyring came along with the ODAM suggestion. They’re smaller and cheaper than the Miflex so I’m looking forward to trying them. I did place an order for the CuTF .01 too!

@ t_ramey

Former Caps in DS2 Pre were 0.47 Miflex.

@ grannyring

Will also explore the CuTF bypass, I understand that this combo gives better extension at the top end. After this mod, I would have been in the ballpark in terms of price for the Deulunds but there is no down side to V-Caps and glad it worked out : )

Wig

Hey @wig.  What caps were you using before the ODAM’s? You still have the Don Sachs?

Yes please check them out.  Bypass with the Vcap CuTF.  My favorite cap is still the Duelund CAST tinned copper foil.  However, they are just crazy expensive for general use. 

We have been looking at several options for coupling capacitors in our upcoming new tube preamplifier products for Purity Audio The only one I have left to evaluate is the ODAM. So far, my preference is the Deulund but these would increase the price of the product out of our selling price goals. My first choice so far is DynamiCap. Let's see how ODAM compares. 

Amen! Bypass with CuTF .01uf from Vcap and try to contain yourself after some 60 hours. 

Guys,

I am totally amazed with the ODAMs in my Tube-Pre with just over 48 hours of use and talk about transparency, vividness, image density and layering is all there in spades. Your speakers will also become more Holographic...

These ODAMs has an uncanny ability to portray realism with a 3 dimensional stage that is large and almost life-like and I am still not in the ODAMs sweet-spot of 100+ hours of use...

If you are considering doing some tweaks and have the ability to carry out these mods, this would be WAY more effective and cheaper than a fuse upgrade; I can not detect a sound signature but you will hear more of the recording as if you were part of a "Live" Event.

Wig

P.S. I bought subwoofer amplifiers for my coincident pre bass cabinets (the Dayton audio sa1000 audio kenesis uses for their swarm sub array) and had to change caps to avoid rolloff with their 12k input impedance. I tried janzen silver zcaps and missed the mundorfs so much down there. Gained a ton more bass punch/impact by going back to mundorf Supremes. 

@c_avila1 I just opened this thread to ask people ( @grannyring ) about the front-to-back layering performance of the odams and then read your review...

"My system was already very dimensional but now it's like wearing 3D goggles for my ears."

I think you sold me. As I mentioned above, I love the tonality of my duelund's, but am missing a bit of the 3d nature of the mundorfs. I want it all. 

I never tried Teflon capacitors. Teflon isolated wire sound good but less natural compared cotton isolated wires.

Teflon *insulated* wire has to be either silver or silver plated. Its more likely that the wire is the problem rather than the insulation.

I tried a dozen different polypropylene capacitors.
All of them have "plastic" coloration. 
In term of tone, smoothness and musicality paper is oil capacitors always bit polypropylene  capacitors.
I never tried Teflon capacitors.  Teflon isolated wire sound good but less natural compared cotton isolated wires.

Regards,
Alex.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only ODAM user here. I think that cap is special and posted my review here. 

@billwojo Polypropylene caps do have a type of coloration that you may not notice until you "roll" other capacitor types into your equipment. The most natural sounding caps (IMHO) are caps that incorporate wax and/or oil. 

Insulation for bare wire can be purchased as Teflon or cotton tubing. I've used both and I agree that cotton does sound more natural only when I use it in moderation. There was a point that I used cotton tubing exclusively but music started sounding brittle after using too much. Now I alternate between both materials when I mod. 

@kalali I unplug the component before I work on it. That saves my life every time :p

@cal3713 I may revisit the Mundorf S/G/O for the tweeter network. Your assessment of it's imaging seems to match Tony Gee's. It may provide depth but is the stage wide or narrow as if you're looking down a pipe or tunnel? I really dislike imaging that crams everything in the middle. 

This thread is extremely educational but at the risk of sounding a bit nerdy, I just want to say that these sort of “tweaks” should be handled with extreme care and sometimes best left to qualified techs and/or experienced DIY folks. Almost all these gears, especially the tube gears, run on some real serious voltages and the slightest mistake can have irreversible health and even life ending results. Capacitors in particular need to be handled with care for obvious reasons - they can hold charge for a while. 
Sorry, just wanted to throw that out there as I hate to see/hear anyone get hurt.

alexberger, can you explain this to me?

" Teflon is a kind of plastic.Any plastic adds plastic coloration to sound.
Even for wires isolation cotton sounds more organic and natural that Teflon."
Thank you
BillWojo

Yes, do bypass with the CuTF Vcaps! Chris of Vcap shared with me this gem.   The result is very good.  .01 uf.  

@t_ramey looking forward to the listening report... 

I just ordered a pair of Vcap odam caps to try in my preamp. Currently have some Mundorf m-cap supreme silvers. I’m tempted to try the bypass method with Vcap cutf’s after seeing what grannyring wrote.

Thanks everyone for all the cap comparison reports. Please keep them coming.. all are super useful. 

@cal3713 

Anyone compared the bass response of these two caps?

Yes. Both.  And, I was advised by a 50 year tech and a designer of my amplifier on two things.  The designer had to beat it into my head a few times for me to believe it.   I have the Mundorf SGOs in my MHDT Orchid DAC and the Mundorf Evo Supreme Silver Gold (non-oil) caps in my former tube amp. Guess which ones sounded fuller after 300+ hours of long and painful burn in.  The designer was right, he told me over and over to "go with the non-oil Evo Supremes" in my amp. He was right. It took a bit just to find the darn part numbers on the non-oil version. I swear those darn caps were still settling in after 400+ hours.  The 50 year tech warned me to "get ready for a roller coaster ride" with those caps for at least the first 3-4 months". Again, both were right.   

The new owner of the amp keeps calling and texting me to tell me how much better it sounds compared to the same amp with different caps, side by side. It kept improving beyond 400-500 hours.   Take it for what it's worth.  Mundorf needs to run in all their caps at the price they charge. Contemplating the roller coaster again on my new amps. 

That's amazing! Can't even imagine the differences after 100-300 hours of forming; the owner is going to be speechless...

Wig 👍

I have an update. I just completed an MHDT Orchid upgrade for a customer with the Vcap Odam & Bypass CuTF on the outputs. The unit has about 7 hours on it. Keep in mind I also upgraded 10 resistors to Vishay ZFoils and Audio Note Tantalum.

To say I am pleased is an understatement. The unit is more open and vivid sounding with a larger stage and far more bass impact. Details once missed are now revealing themselves. Realism is improved. All with a silky smoothness and meaty warmth that is a must! Still early, but so far so very good.

@ grannyring

Thanks for the tips! I think we have stumbled on some special caps that does about everything right and it's musical...

Wig 😁

Wig. They are said to perform even better, great results, with a .01uf Vcap CuTF as a parallel/bypass cap. That is how I am using them.  

@ grannyring

Looking forward to your evaluation on those ODAMs; mine should arrive on Saturday and then onto the cooker and should have them installed by next weekend.

Wig

@grannyring please do report back. Looking forward to hearing the outcome. 

Yeah, I had them in the pre for a couple months of daily listening... would still love to try the cutf and odams.

The Cutf is really the only part we've been playing for some years. My comments are based on them. We installed the ODAMs in one of our preamps (UV-1) and they were quite nice.

I have used and continue to use the Duelund silver and Sn-Cu bypass caps. Both are great. I find the Sn-cu, like the main Sn-Cu cap, are the best caps out there. They are simply beautiful sounding with all the detail and openness one could ever want, but served up in a natural and unforced manner. They also have great body and weight which is my only knock of Teflon caps which can sound colder and a tad leaner. 

The Vcaps have a sound as all caps do. I am also trying the combo of ODAMs bypassed with Vcap CuTF. I don’t expect them to sound as good as the Duelund Sn-Cu, but we will see. I am sure this combo will deliver clarity in spades, but will that have that wonderful tone and beauty of the Duelund Sn-Cu? I have my doubts.

@alexberger I had the duelund silver bypass caps in my coincident Frankenstein’s (but only over the stock solen coupling caps) and really liked them. Could not hear any difference over the stock output caps in my pre though and sold them...

@atmasphere Yeah, I had them in the pre for a couple months of daily listening... would still love to try the cutf and odams.

Does anybody try to bypass Duelunc Custom Cu capacitors 
with Duelund Bypass Sliver or Duelund bypass Cu-Sn?
How does it work?
Which kind of  Duelund bypass do you prefer?

Teflon is a kind of plastic.
Any plastic adds plastic coloration to sound.
Even for wires isolation cotton sounds more organic and natural that Teflon.

In my pre, with a pretty large cap (2uf) right on the output, going to the vcaps was like turning on a fluoresce light.

Did you give them adequate time to break in? We've got plenty of feedback that says that takes a while.


On paper, Teflon has the best characteristics of any dielectric (although at come frequencies polystyrene can be a little better, but polystyrene is all but extinct). So it should be no surprise that the Teflon also sounds better- lower dielectric constant, equivalent series resistance an so on.

@wig Interesting. Looking forward to the report...

& @atmasphere I also have absolutely no doubt that the vcap's sound amazing in your pre's. Would absolutely love to hear one. 

Guys,

Decided to go with V-Caps ODAM; many users says it beats the Deulund Cast head-on and much cheaper. Will give them a week on my cable cooker before adding to component and another week to settle in.

Can't wait to hear the differences Caps can make, word on the street is that it can elevate your component SQ 2-3X :)

Wig

@atmasphere I’ve seen a ton of people love them, but they just didn’t work in my system .  The ds pre has two outputs and so it was super easy to switch back and forth between the Mundorfs and vcaps. In my pre, with a pretty large cap (2uf) right on the output, going to the vcaps was like turning on a fluoresce light.

they're more tonally similar than different (whereas V-Cap TFTFs and Mundorfs will definitely both shift the tone in different directions).  

We've used the V-Caps a lot and never run into anything like that FWIW.

@wig Finally checked out your system. Wish I could hear it, always wanted to hear those speakers. Hope the Duelunds work out... very curious to hear how you feel about the comparison.

@ cal3713

Thanks for your response, very informative and I will probably get those Deulunds Tinned as well. They are considered the best Caps one can buy...

My system is some what revealing but has the ability to convey depth, texture, large sound stage with you are there imaging.

Wig : )

Hi @wig , a lot of people seem to love the Miflex's and I'm sure they are great performers in many systems.  In mine, they sounded good, but removed almost all the front to back layering that my system is capable of.  I really enjoyed the Sach's pre and was feeling content with it, but when I installed the Mundorf Supremes, all of a sudden I had another  2-3 feet of meaningful depth to the imaging.  I didn't know what I was missing, but in comparison, the Miflexs were almost two-dimensional. 

Moving up to Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oils added another foot to the depth of the imaging (and also reduced the bass to a level that I couldn't accept until I added in new subwoofer amplifiers that could boost my bass a bit). 

Moving on to the Duelund's probably took out that extra foot, but made the sound more real/natural.  They're also a little cleaner and more precise in terms of locating instruments in the soundstage.  

I think whether the Deulunds are worth it or not (vs the Miflexs) will really depend on the depth capabilities of your system's imaging. 

It's been too long for me to accurately comment, but I want to guess that they're more tonally similar than different (whereas V-Cap TFTFs and Mundorfs will definitely both shift the tone in different directions).  

Hope that helps.

@ cal3713

How much better are the Deulunds tinned over the Miflex in your Sach's pre?

Thanks,
Wig

I have tried a lot of capacitors over the years and my finding with the Mundorf Silver/Oil is the same as mentioned above. If they maintained the sound of the initial 100 hours, it would be one of my favorite capacitors for a warmer tone. 
The capacitor I like for good tone as well as maintaining good detail is the DynamiCap. We switch over to these in our upper end Purity Audio Design Reference and Statement preamps with the Statement being the Stealth version.
For clarity and more 'in your face' the ClarityCap CMR are a very good capacitor. 

They are easily the finest sounding cap I have ever used and I have used most of them 🤪 They are as you say so natural and real sounding.