It seems conventional, at least at the low to mid-range of equipment, to spend much more for a turntable than for the cartridge. I'm wondering about the logic behind that. It seems to me that, once you've spent enough for a well-made turntable that with a good motor, sufficient weight and torque, and a solid tonearm that a cartridge upgrade is, relatively speaking, more valuable than a turntable upgrade. For example, I have a Rega P3 that typically comes with (in the package version) and Elys II cartridge. On mine, I know use a Rega Ania cartridge, which, as upgraded by SoundSmith, costs a bit more than the turntable. But the audible return on that investment has been enormous. I also have a Pioneer PLX-1000, which I initially used with a Sumiko Pearl cartridge. I've since upgraded, first, to a Hana EL, and subsequently to an Ortofon Quintet Bronze. Each upgrade improved sound quality (frequency response, transparency, detail, sound stage, etc.) dramatically. Perhaps I'm not getting everything out of the Bronze or the Ania that I would hear if I used them on higher-level turntables. But in terms of bang-for-the-buck, I've reached the conclusion that it is smarter to budget 50% each for cartridge and turntable than the prevailing norm of 75% for the turntable and only 25% for the cartridge (at least once your total budget reaches around $1000. Your thoughts?
FWIW , last night I was finally cleaning out my audio closet . WAY in corner down below I found a Shure M91ED new in box I did not even know i had . Slapped it on a low mass arm of a direct drive .(I’m good at alignment ) and dam near fell of my chair as it sounded every bit as good as the 1200 $ number on my Rega P6 and tracked better !
My mind shifted back to the Glory Days of the 60’s which I wasn’t thinking of because I did not want to recall what Companies like Empire, ADC , Stanton, Shure, and many others were making .The box on my Shure still had the price on it . 21$ .
I recently installed a lightly used Lyra Helikon MC cartridge (rebuilt by Lyra in 2016) on an old Planar 3 (early 2000s) that has some modifications. The sound quality was spectacular. Placing the turntable on EVP footers was an additional improvement.
My thoughts: It’s a matter of where diminishing returns cut in most steeply, and what your budget is. For a $5-10k setup, diminishing returns for turntables seem to be about $4k, and $1500 for cartridges. For an under $2k setup, the figures seem more like $1200/800. For the real pricey stuff, I don’t know. Phono preamp prices are all over the map. I only have experience up to $3k, so you’re on your own for that. My ratios are $4k, $1.5k, $3k for table, cartridge, phono pre for 2 different systems.
Percentages are meaningless. No one is talking about the phono stage. Critical part of the equation. Arm is most important. I had a P5 and upgraded the RB700 arm to the RB880 and was BLOWN AWAY. Then upgraded the table to the P8 which was nice, but not anywhere near the difference. Then I got a Sutherland phono stage (was using the phono section of a Plinius integrated which has a switch between MM & MC), which can match to most any cartridge which also made a VERY NOTICEABLE difference. I happen to have a van den Hul MC ONE Special that I got a very good deal on used from a dealer that lasted 9 years because of its unique stylus and was replaced very reasonably because of their service/shipping to the Netherlands being hindered by Covid. I wouldn't spend over $1K on a cartridge. They are disposable.
Just my 2 cents. If your P3 doesn't have a PSU, that would be a big help for speed consistency. Not sure what your budget is. I'm not sure if Rega will sell the RB 880 stand alone (my dealer was desperate for business so he took it off of a P8 and then sold the P8 to another guy who wanted the best Rega combo (before the P10 came out) and the dealer sold him the RB2000 arm). Now they have an RB 3000 that comes with the P10 that they don't sell by itself. Problem is, now you're over $5K for the P10 table which opens up a lot of other possibilities where you can take a Rega arm and put it on a different armless table that may sound better.
I did it step by step so it was less painful, keeping each step under $1K (except the P8 part was a little over $1K after trade in). Problem is, they do add up after a while. As long as you have an idea where you want to get to, don't waste money on half measures (nod to Breaking Bad fans). It's OK to have one piece substantially better than the other. I got the MC ONE special on the P5 with no external phono stage because as the dealer said, it was a "unique opportunity".
For you, IMHO I would start with the TT-PSU $350 I think, then the RB880 arm, around $1000 after you trade in the RB330, then a phono stage if you need it (you can get a good used one under $1K), then a cartridge, which I would wait on until it wears out and then revisit that.
It's a journey....I like hearing each incremental improvement rather than a big bang.
If it were me, I’d get the music hall mmf 9.3 in walnut finish. I personally think it’s hard to beat for the money. It’s on my wish list and will most likely be my forever turntable. It combines both a terrific cartridge and a fabulous turntable. Nothing needs to be changed in my opinion.
aprox 1: 1 : 1 turntable, cartridge and phono preamp have always lived this rule and currently very happy with technics 1200gr, ortofon cadenza blue and sutherland 20/20.
With more money you get nothing if you don't know what you need or what you're looking for. This is knowledge and experience.
You can get all you need for less money, not for more money. This is why people are buying classic tonearms and classic turntables instead of what a marketing team trying to sell you for 10 times higher price.
I think the 70/30 conventions are just guidelines for how much to spend on a cartridge if you already have a TT.
If you have neither...then I'd spend WAY more money on the turntable...because that will be, for most situations, the constant. You can upgrade the cartridge later.
Turntable: less bearing noise, less motor noise. Blacker background. Better dynamics.
Tonearm: better registration of the cartridge to the record. Ability to adjust cartridge for optimal performance and keep it that way.
Cartridge: the POTENTIAL to produce good to great sound IF and ONLY IF the above have already been done.
Set-up is the great leveller. A decent rig, well set up, will compete with a badly set up SOTA. I would spend the money on set-up books and tools, and money left over on record cleaning. A side benefit to record cleaning is that the stylus lasts longer. After 1000 hours, my higher end Koetsu shows minimal wear, probably because I clean with ultrasonics.
Hello, If you are happy with the sound then the juice was worth the squeeze. Please stop there improving the Rega P3. If you feel you need more then buy the P6 with the regular MM cart, swap carts with your P3 and sell your P3. So many people have spent a lot of Money turning the P3 into the P6 only coming up short because the plinth is better on the P6. It’s like spending $70,000 on your Honda Civic to turn it into a Porsche. Sell the civic and go buy the Porsche. Once you buy the P6 you will be able to stop especially if you put the MC cart you have on it.
You can spend $50 000 on a turntable, but a $1500 Victor TT-101 recapped and calibrated for about $1500 extra by JP Jones is unbeatable at any price. You can read about TT-101, people who own multiple turntables and tonearms (including some very expensive) can confirm what I’m talking about. Check this link! Add tonearm and plinth (if you need any) and you’re done, total cost is about $5000-6000 with everything.
The problem is a lack of knowledge, so most people have no idea what is a reference turntable when they are referring to Rega and similar stuff.
Years ago I had this demonstrated to me. A dealer played a Rega based system with a nice cartridge vs a Linn with a cheapo cartridge. The Linn sounded much better - much to my annoyance as I do not like Linn record players.
I think of cartridges as the icing on the cake, they only sing when everything else is right.
Me, I have a 6K player with a 4k cartridge. The 4K cartridge sounds a lot nicer to my ears than my old 1.5k cartridge.
Since I spent $75,000 on my table, I’ve got to spend $100,000 on my cartridge. I only spent $11,000.
@wolfie62,
Your comment above immediately brought to mind one of the greatest scenes from the groundbreaking FX drama, "Nip/Tuck". This clip is from Season 5 -- Episode 12: "Lulu Grandiron", which aired on February 5, 2008. Thanks for the memory.
you are not going to be able to go with a very good cartridge unless you have a very good arm. A nice arm can be $3500 to $$$$$. For example, Pioneer and music hall are not a good turntables.. I had a $2000 soundsmith cartridge on a $3500 arm, and the arm would have supported a much better cartridge. The turntable cost 5 digits and would support the better arms
As others have pointed out, it would be wise to max out your budget for a turntable. IME, the upgrade path for cart and phono becomes much easier once you have a solid foundation i.e. Turntable.
I am in the process of setting up my analog and I went 70/30 between my TT and Cart.
IF you have a great relationship with your dealer, this is a very easy thing to test out in the real world.... throw a 3x cartridge from the same brand ( in this case an Ortofon) on your REGA and see what it can do...,
He knows he's not getting the most out of the cartridge. He said he wasn't concerned with that in the OP. His question is, is it smarter to budget more like 50/50 cartridge/table vs the conventional 25/75?
He thinks that's true, and its hard to argue, at least in the here and now. Also making it hard, his only experience is changing to a better cartridge. We all know how great that is. But he has no idea how much better it is putting that same cartridge on a better table and arm. At the price point he's talking, neither do I. Probably hardly anyone knows for sure. Its a pretty fair guess though that there's at least one arm out there that costs about what he spent on a cartridge and is so much better he would prefer the old cartridge on the new arm over the new cartridge on the old table.
That really is his question. At least the way I understand it. And I am pretty sure I know which way he will answer it- but only after he has moved it over and heard it on a better table. Its just too hard to imagine how much better an arm- just the arm all by itself- can make a cartridge. Until you hear it for yourself.
There is some good advice here, and your observations about a better cartridge sounding better in your turntables is correct.
I only want to point out, that until you have have heard the same cartridge in an excellent well matched tonearm, you won't really know the capabilities of the cartridge, or understand the limitations of your current tonearm.
I know this through personal experience having owned a Rega 250, Rega 600, and Origin Live OL-1 (Rega based tonearm). The comparison to a Basis Vector 3 tonearm was an amazing and revelatory experience.
But if you've got a budget of, say $1200, then you might be better off (in terms of your audio experience) spending $600 to $700 on the table and $500 to $600 on the cartridge than $1000 on the table and $200 on the cartridge (depending, of course, on table and cartridge you are getting for that money).
Sometimes you can buy a $3000 turntable for half price.
You can also find a good deal on cartridges if you want to pay less than retail prices.
I don't understand how can you merit quality in numbers and where did you get your numbers from ?
Consider used market and your numbers will be irrelevant.
How can you be sure that more expensive is better for your ears ? For some people cheaper cartridges are better, I can argue about it too, but remember Denon 103 and its fan club ? It's $350 cartridge. I am not a fan of Denon 103, but you know how many people prefer that oldies over some very expensive cartridges?
Once you have a good turntable like Denon DP-80 whichis th best buy in my opinion (for example) you don't have to change it each time you're buying expensive cartridge, there is no correlation between DP-80 price and any cartridge you can buy. Tonearm mucst be matched to your cartridge, not a turntable drive.
I'm just wondering why the convention is to spend only 70% of a budget on a table and only 30% on a cartridge.
Conventional wisdom is really nothing more than stuff that’s been repeated enough so it becomes like a reflex. People tend to repeat what they hear without ever really giving it much analysis. Here we are 20 years after DBA, still everyone talking about "a" sub when everyone by now should know the key is several. Many still say put some huge amount in the speakers, which if forced to explain all they come up with is basically well that’s what makes the sound, right? Cartridge is sort of like that. Its not that you’re not right. Everything you’re saying is just fine. Only thing missing is you haven’t experienced a really good turntable. When you do it will be like, "aha!" All the same stuff you get from a better cartridge. Well not quite all the same. But very similar. Even just the arm. Could be the same table. Put a better arm on it. Boom- huge improvement in extension, dynamics, detail. Just like when you buy a better cartridge.
I’ve done all this stuff. Upgraded just the motor, everything else exactly the same. Upgraded just the turntable. Same motor, same arm, cart, everything. Upgraded just the arm- same table, motor, cart. In fact I’ve upgraded the motor a couple times. Twice with the same motor, just upgraded the motor drive controller. Actually now that I think about it there was one upgrade just to battery power for the motor. One time it was just the bearing.
You get the idea. Where most know only what happens when they change the table- by which they mean the plinth, arm, motor, everything except for the cartridge- I have experience changing every tiny little part of it, one piece at a time. Right down to the bearing and thrust plate inside the bearing well.
Point being not to say you’re wrong. Way you’re looking at it is just fine for where you are right now. Just want to let you know, its nowhere near so simple. Every single tiny little thing is just as important as the cartridge.
Including what its sitting on... what its connected to... we haven’t even touched on the phono stage....
You bring up good points. Not sure where the ratio on expenditures for audio equipment originated from. Perhaps, golden ear reviewers of yore.
When I was a young, and dapper, aspiring audio geek in my teens, I tended to be focused on technical specs based on readings from stereo review magazine at the time. Those readings and my curiosity provided me with the impetus to explore turntables and cartridges based on specs. In those days, late 70’s, early 80’s, my Audioquest4life journey began. I state this because I was young and exploring the audio gadget field on my own terms, no Internet, a few audio dealers within proximity and through discovery learning, I figured out that the combination of the system had to play music and I had to I enjoy it. Costs associated for each component was not even a factor because I did not think it was relevant or not even thought about it....I just needed to get what I could get within my means, and obviously, my budget. And yes, I did splurge on Shure cartridges, Pickering, ADC, and such to pair with my Pioneer, Radio Shack, Denon turntables which I thought at the time, were just a platform to install these magnificent cartridges on at the time for me to hear the music. So, I can see how you can question this rationale.
Remember, I was a spec guy back then, mostly still today, and thought that really good channel separation and wide frequency response was all that I needed for me to enjoy music on my turntables. I still look at specs but with a wider view of my interpretation of synergy of system. I say go for it because invariably, your the only one, besides, friends and family who will get the pleasure of hearing the synergy that you develop. Sure, a general consensus can be extracted from forums about equipment combinations, and it’s helpful, to a degree. Each of us have our own listening environments and ears and that separates us from the masses. Disagreement is quite alright in this hobby as I don’t see many absolutes, except for those darn specs. Enjoy.
Of course, it always depends on what you are buying for the money, but for most of us it is simply not true that "price means nothing." Also, I'm not looking for approval. I'm just wondering why the convention is to spend only 70% of a budget on a table and only 30% on a cartridge. At least in my budget range ($1000 to $3000), the convention seems questionable. I am not saying is that the quality of the turntable doesn't matter or that the cartridge is more important than the table. But if you've got a budget of, say $1200, then you might be better off (in terms of your audio experience) spending $600 to $700 on the table and $500 to $600 on the cartridge than $1000 on the table and $200 on the cartridge (depending, of course, on table and cartridge you are getting for that money).
IMO it depends how good the tonearm is. I own a Rega P9 RB1000 which the tonearm makes the P9 a standout mid-price table, I currently have a Goldring Legacy with about 400hrs on it. Started with an AT OC 9 MK2 which probably gave me over 1000 hours until the cantilever snapped after a light stylus cleaning The Goldring is a solid improvement over the AT especially with bass and overall clarity(calmness). A Koetsu Black or Rosewood would be my last upgrade on the P9 which would get everything out of the RB1000 tonearm.
Prices means nothing, depends what you're buying. Once you got a nice turntable you can spend more on cartridges if you want (or can't stop). Turntable drive, plinth and tonearms normally cost more than a nice cartridge. But if you want to try a $3k cartridge on $2k turntable - why not (if you can afford it) ? Do you need an approval from somebody else ?
The logic is, it depends on your goals and where you want to be. What you are doing is perfectly fine- obviously, since its working out so well for you. What you won’t know until you try, a lot of money in a much better table and arm pays equally great dividends. The difference being a cartridge pretty much always becomes a consumable- it wears out- while a better table/arm is almost a forever thing.
A lot of us like me have had the same table and arm for like 15 years. The most I have paid for a cartridge is $1800 for a Koetsu. My table is like three, four times that.
So I am a very long term oriented audiophile. The only cartridge I have seen that I would spend big money on is the Soundsmith Hyperion, or even better Strain Gauge, because with the stylus replacement cost those are practically forever components.
But really, what you are doing is fine. Just don’t kid yourself that there aren’t massive improvements to be had with a better table and arm. You would be shocked! Audio is what we call a target rich environment. Especially analog. Hard to go wrong.
Dan, cartridges are expendable items. They wear out. A turntable can last a lifetime if taken care of. So, it makes sense to get the best table you can knowing that you will upgrade the cartridge in the future. Good cartridges always sound better in good arms.
You can certainly take your experience and reach such a conclusion. In a very specific price / equipment band it probably holds true. I don't apply a formula to such things because there are always variations, but budget should always be generously sliced to allow the best table possible. This for me is a constant. If the tonearm or cart are more costly in a ratio sense so be it. For me it comes down to synergistic combinations...
I have a client using the STST Motus table. He has lots of arms and carts. One of his favorite combo's after trying many is an SME 312S and a Hana. Just a data point.
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