Should Sound Quality of Computer Audio be improved

Unable to respond to, "Mach2Music and Amarra: Huge Disappointment"- Thread. Other Members take free pop-shots!
Apparently some have more Freedom Of Speech than others! I
don't know how many times I have said it, I want Computer
Audio to succeed! It will only succeed if Computers are designed from the ground up to reproduce Music (Same minimum standard applied for Equipment of ALL Audio Formats)! This is common sense Audio Engineering Design. Bandaid Modifications cannot be substituted for absence in design to produce Music! Design it right to EARN the right to become a New Audio Format- same as all other Audio Formats! No Freebee's, No Cutting Corners! Lack of design is what's causing such varied results in S.Q. between
listeners of Computer Audio. I see about 50% negative
responses here on these Threads. It will continue to happen unless you fix it! Blaming me won't help! I am an
Engineer, and I can read results! 50/50 success/ failure
rate- you have an inherit Engineering Design Flaw for the
reproduction of Music via Computers! Shock! Suprise- since
they were never designed for Music! So when is someone finally going to properly design the Equipment/Computer
(From the ground up) for Computer Audio? Do we continue
to treat any real criticism as "HERESY" in the lack of
design in Computer Audio for Music? You tell me what I am
allowed to talk about, and we will both know!
You may be giving up on computer audio, but there are still plenty windmills left. Mount your horse and onwards!
Hi Pettyofficer,
Well, I'll bite. I don't have much pull, but among other things, I buy Computers (pc) for a living. I spend enough to get their attention (few million), but realistically have little pull. I buy Acer/Gateway, HP/Compaq, Dell and a bit of Asus. In Acer, I do know some fairly high level people. I don't know what you are thinking about instead of an operating system, but lay it out, i'll take it up the ladder... I agree with you about alot that you say... but realize these companies operate on lazer thin margins, there must be a market or you are correct, they have little interest.
So, please list in order of importance, what you would like to see for your music server, realizing that the lower points, might not be looked at, at all.
I will do the best I can and report back... It could certainly take months.
Chadeffect, I think we have both taken Pettyofficer's bait. The guy is either off his rocker, trolling or simply frustrated because even though he's an engineer he ain't intelligent enough to "clean up their O.S. mess".

After all, any normal person who really felt this way about computer audio would just not bother coming to this forum at all - kinda like I don't go to home theatre forums.

I'm sure he's having a chuckle - and actually I am too!
I have to agree with Chadeffect. I have been following this thread for the shear entertainment value of it and it seems to me that one of Pettyofficer's cables is malfunctioning, or at least there is a loose connection somewhere. I hesitated to use exclamation marks.
Not giving up on Computer Audio, I still use it. I don't
get how Computer Audio is supposed to replace all other
Audio Formats, when it is being designed by Anti-Audio
Computer Manufacturer's (Microsoft, Apple, MacIntosh...
etc). It would be like hiring Furniture Manufacturers,
who cant stand one iota of Music, to build the worlds best
sounding Turntable. They don't have to, why would they want to, how can you bet the Farm that they will come through, how can you force the rest of us to bet the same.
You have an Anti-Music radical rogue element in your
formulation of Computer Audio- Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh.
They design Anti-Music, Pro-everything else O.S. and
software. They skimp on the Music end, and shift all of the
design perogative to everything Computer wise that is not
Music. This is Sabotage to Computer Audio, and your plan is
to use the Tools they design to create a Computer Audio to
replace all other Audio Formats? This sounds like a joke to
me, and it sounds alot more than a little mad! The idea
that you could touch up their Frankenstein Monster with a little dab of make-up (Wasapi,ASIO, Kernel Streamimg
Bandaids), what kind of creature are you playing with here?
You think that I am crazy? You actually believe that you have created life. Take another long look at that piecemeal Creature you have created- a crime against nature! You owe all of your results to these Computer Manufacturer's jigsaw puzzle of Abi-normal Software. You
are proud of this Dr. Frankenstein, and upset that more refuse to help. My only suggestion was that you scrap the
Frankenstein Monster and start over again...and BOY-
did I ever end up being chased by villagers with torches
and pitchforks! You have got the wrong target...oh what is the use? Now you want your Creature to toss the little girl
(Other Audio Formats) into the river- nice touch! You and
your Computer Manufacturer feinds are respondsible for that
"THING" running amuck- YOU take full respondsibility for it! I am NOT cleaning up after your mess, you do it!
Nothing to design around- so what do you need Wasapi,
ASIO, and Kernel Streaming for? Nothing to design around,
just skip it. Why should you need any of these in the first place? Who would design a System requiring them for
Audio, and why would they design it that way? Why don't
any Computer Manufacturer's include these in their O.S.
Software? How many years have these 3 Audio Software
patchworks been around? Why does it take three hours to
download an hours worth of High Rez. Downloads. Technology moves forward, anything that doesn't keep up falls behind.
Everything Computer wise non-Musical has moved forward by leaps and bounds. Compared to this Computer Audio has not kept up. Anything that doesn't keep up falls behind. If it
is behind the curve, and no-one cares to change this, what
is the point of making it the only Alpha Audio Format?
This is only an extreme exercise in redundancy. There is
only one ultimate conclusion, no sense in even including a
redundant Computer Audio Application in a Computer. It
would just be inconvenient taking away processing power from other more popular, and useful Applications. Now I
am trying to keep Computer Audio relevant, and avoid this.
You can't have Computer Audio relevant by making Audio
irrelevant. This lack of logic can only snake around and
bite know where! Convenience over Sound Quality
makes Audio irrelevant. Well, we used to listen to Music-
a long, long, long ,long, l-o-n-g time ago. Slippery slope
a long way down, and no going back. Hope you know what you are doing, I have my doubts! Don't you "LIKE" Music?
is it just me or when you see a really long diatribe do you just tune out??? my computer audio works great and i look forward to progress.....nothing personal pettyofficer.

You need to buy a mac for your computer audio. Sounds like you need help to set a PC up. PCs can be a pain. ASIO is there because a computer is an open ended machine. You tell it what you need it to do & then in most cases it does it.

It also sounds like your Internet speeds could be slow. If it is slow to download why not download your audio overnight? No need to sit & wait. Personally I find it quicker than getting in the car & driving to a store.


I quite bait. It makes for a good snack.
Pettyofficer, all that and you gave me nothing to take back to manufactures... no substances rants just don't work.
My apologies Timlub, that was not meant for you. It
would seem that ASIO patches are required to bypass
much of the processing involved with O.S. Computer
Audio. Why was this extra Processing installed prior
to requiring Wasapi, and Kernel Streaming? Why not
include Wasapi, and Kernel Streaming as standard for Computer Audio?
Music File type is a never ending open ended
affair no doubt requiring alot of Processing for all
of these different Music File Types. It is simply way
too many chefs here radically spoiling the broth. We
need some consistency here, a Standard that will allow
all Customers to plan ahead to establish their Computer
Audio for High End. You have Computer Audio going in fifty different directions with 50 different File Types, 6 plus
different Formats with a New One every week, multiple
ASIO Patches, maybe thousands of different permutations
based on these alone. Computer Audio is so open ended
that it would dissolve in water. Can't get a grip on it
if it just runs between your fingers. What is the selling point here? What is Computer Audio? Anything that you want it to be! Then what is it that I am buying so that I know
the value compared to what I am required to give up for it? There is no answer!
The biggest issue Timlub, is that Computer Audio
SHARE the market with other Audio Formats until Computer
Audio can decide on some direction. Let it mature, and
develop some consistency in reliability. If enough people
appreciate that, they will switch. It is just that you have inpertinent children who can't wait that long. They
want to shove it down everyone's throat yesterday, and
shove all other Formats out 10 years ago. They do not
understand the words "Gradual Transition" for the sake
of concideration with other Customer's. Historically this
is how you create a new Audio Market Format, not by nuking everyone who is unsure! You guy's creep me out, and you are only succeeding in scaring away the Customer's-WHY?
I was selling audio when Magnavox introduced the FD-1000. I believe it was the worlds first CD Player...Don't remember the year... Maybe 1981. There were 3 cd's available at first. It is true, manufactures have to have a way to make a living before anything takes off, but believe me brother, computer audio is taking roots... nothing like 3 cd's available. I use PC and am absolulely fine with it, but it has been stated quite well above, go with MAC for now, no driver issues at all, you won't need to deal with a Wasapi, ASIO or KS patch.
I guarantee that within a few years, you will see computers that are made to be used as a server, Highly efficient processors, with big ram and big storage, operating systems made to use minimal resources, with the best digital outs available, all standard equipment. I get your issues, just seems a bit overboard. Changes are coming, just hold on. Tim
OK, get this, I come on here and say that I have no anti virus... I do a microsoft windows update and what do i get? Microsoft Security Essentials.... I don't know whether to say LOL or isn't that a kick in the teeth.
Of course I don't have to use it, but I found it pretty amusing after these post. Tim
I think I finally get it - this guy is just slightly confused, he thinks that Computer Audio is a person...
Not confused Hfisher3380. Just tired of exchanging endless
barbs accomplishing nothing. I still believe that Computer
Audio has a huge potential. I also know that it is still a
diamond in the rough, even those who support it have to
admit as much. I believe that it needs more exposure to
competition in the Audio Market to mature. To share the Audio Market in order to adapt to it. Once you see a huge
increase in Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads, then the question of making Computer Audio the Alpha Audio Format can be raised. Getting there, but still not ready!
Computer Audio still needs to deliver the goods (Music
Selection) to sell itself. Too many fly by night Audio
Formats, here today, gone tomorrow. A little skitishness,
and "show me the goods first" is normal in this Market.
YOU're tired of exchanging endless barbs accomplishing nothing? YOU are?

How about this? Next time you start a thread and people answer and leave suggestions, how about you actually make an effort to absorb and understand what they're saying? Then perhaps something will be accomplished!!

Otherwise it just looks like you're coming onto this forum to be antagonistic.

In computer audio, it is not a big deal to convert formats if needed. A program to do it is all that is needed. ITs not rocket science. That is one reason there are many formats. Some are redundant but some are not and suit specific applications best. For comparison, it is much harder to convert a record into a CD or vice versa. The days of everyone consuming the same flavor of product are over. Take coffee for example. USed to be Folgers and Maxwell House mostly. Now look. Sorry, but thems the facts. Just saying.....

Even with records, there were 78s, then 331/3 and 45s. Not a single format. Making a record player play different formats was much harder but it still happened basically because there was a market for it.

Maybe if the USSR were still around there would be a single format there. How about in China? Or North Korea?
Well, I think we've figured out what we need. A computer, with no operating system, able to convert all files to the single best format upon receiveing the file. It needs to be downloaded without going on the internet and be capable of being played with a built in DAC in the computer that beats out the best outboard DAC's available. I guess it outputs in analog, might as well have its own perfect gain stage capable of being turned off, so we can use or not use our favorite pre amp and what the heck, lets keep it under $500.
I don't know what more you guy's want! I have already
conceeded that Computer Audio has a huge potential. I
am only antagonistic, because it seems that many are
apathetic towards making Computer Audio fulfill that
potential. Only after it has fulfilled it's potential
can it then seriously be concidered for Alpha Format
Status. Still waiting to see if Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads can seriously get off of the ground,
although selection is definitely improving. With M.S.a
little thin, why give up other Formats prematurely untill High Rez. Computer Audio gets its selection ducks
in a row. The real Market testing ground will determine
if Computer Audio has real staying power, or will it end
up like SACD, DVD-Audio. Alot of us got burned on those
two. Forgive us, but some still feel that "Twice Burned,
three times shy"! Patience, time will determine fate of
Computer Audio. Rushing it too fast can only be detrimental! Nobody should be blamed for being cautious
after third degree burns from SACD, DVD-Audio. Need
something a little more "Substantial" this time in Music
Selection before diving in. This time that pool had better be full of water, and I want to see it first!
SACD and DVD-Audio are not computer audio... they require extra hardware and media that both cost money.... They both were formats competing with CD and the multitude of small devices. No matter what your format, it can be downloaded to your computer... for now or forever, the can be very competently converted to analog and as long as you own the computer... at least with PC, it doesn't cost you a dime extra, plus, you can store all that music on a drive, no getting up and changing cd's, records, etc... Hi Res downloads or not, I'm glad to download my redbook. Cd files sound just as good as the cd, I can choose individual cuts, I can move between artist instantaniously... proven format? There's nothing to prove.
Proof is in High Rez. Download Music Selection. This is
where the rubber meets the road of the Audio Market.
Music Selection for SACD/DVD-Audio was too thin. They
did not penetrate the Market. Many dived in anyways,
cracked their skulls on the thin Music Selection of both.
Pool was empty. Some have learned their lesson this time with Computer Audio- it's High Rez. Music Selection just as thin. No sense diving in this time until this changes. No sense letting go of other Formats to dive in, not until Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads changes. How much
abuse are our Skulls supposed to take? Common Sense
Consumer Protectionism. Best Consumer Strategy is wait
and see. Your "Impending Doom" high pressure salesmanship
not withstanding! "Soon all New Music will only be
available as Music Downloads"- or you will take my first
born? If there is any validity in Computer Audio, you
wouldn't need to use Impending Doom- so why do you use it?
What "impending doom" high pressure salesmanship? Why are you accusing us of trying to annihilate all other formats, Petty? Presumptuous and aggravating!

As I have repeatedly said (repeatedly because you are obviously not listening), my alpha source remains my turntable. My Mac - DAC source has essentially replaced my CDP because it sounds better to my ears. I have absolutely no vested interest or ulterior motive - just want the best sound for the buck.

I have no emotional or commercial interest in or aversion to any format.

After all this, I actually couldn't care less what you think about computer audio or any other format - but please stop putting words in my mouth. It's extremely annoying!
Maybe what you're typing sounds coherent in your brain petty office but I have no idea what you're trying to get across 2/3 of the time. Between your one-word sentences, random capitalization tendencies and bizarre apostrophe usage I'm simply confused. Maybe you should get a grasp on proper sentence structure before trying to tackle computer audio.
One guy says he doesn't understand what I am trying to get
across two thirds of the time. The other guy understands
me perfectly, and is extremely annoyed as a result. Half
of the buying Public is sold on Computer Audio. The other
half is waiting for Computer Audio to prove itself first.
One way to prove itself is adequate Music Selection in High Rez. Downloads. You are failing to convince the other
half that "Someday all New Music will ONLY be available as
Music Downloads". It sounds like an ultimatum to all other
Audio Formats, and it sounds like Impending Doom! It also
sounds like half of the American Public are not going to be persuaded with this Impending Doom approach. They are
not impressed- still you continue to push it! It is
Presumptuous and aggravating. It will only persuade those
against Computer Audio, who are sitting on the fence today! NICE JOB! Is Computer Audio your "Offer that we can't refuse"? If that is not Impending Doom- what is?
Petty, once again, failure to actually listen to and process what is being said. "The other guy understands me perfectly and is extremely annoyed as a result" - which is referring to me. But if you took the time to actually read and more importantly UNDERSTAND what is being written then you would realize that what I ACTUALLY said is that I am annoyed because you are not listening - which makes your response all the more ironic.

As I said, I could not care less what you think about computer audio. What I find ANNOYING is you putting words in our mouths.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything and you certainly are failing to convince me of anything. Personally, I think computer audio done right can easily beat an optical player in the same price range, based on my experience and what I have heard (which is a ton). I also believe that computer audio done wrong can sound horrible.

As I said (and I'm getting tired of repeating myself), I don't actually care what you think on the subject. If you can't even listen to and understand what we're saying, I don't really trust your hearing anyways. You obviously have your agenda - which appears to be to discredit computer audio and to somehow characterize all those who have adopted it as attempting to kill music and all other formats. It's ludicrous, really. Believe it or not, we're just music lovers who have adopted the format, pure and simple!

Once again, please stop putting words in my mouth - THAT is what I find annoying!
"I think Computer Audio done right can easily beat an optical player in the same price range, based on my
experience and what I have heard (which is a ton). I also
believe that Computer Audio done wrong can sound horrible."
These are your words, I am not putting ANY words in your
mouth! Based on your experience (which is a ton), why not
tell us about your experience when Computer Audio has been
done wrong and sounded horrible? If for no other reason, to
give fair warning to any novice getting into Computer Audio. Nobody here (including yourself) will do this
because "YOU" are the one with the agenda! Even if doing so
would help promote Computer Audio by helping others to avoid pitfalls! No- you wont do this! You are Computer Audio's worst enemy, by not allowing it to progress- and
improve. You wont admit Computer Audio's weaknesses, block
any correction, and enable it to remain stagnate! You are
the reason why no one should get involved in Computer Audio, and others like you. You are shoving your version of
"Perfect Sound Forever" down everyone's throat. Only after
you get over yourself (and others) can Computer Audio
correct itself, and progress to be concidered the only Audio Format. You are just dead weight holding it down. So
long as this continues Computer Audio "CANNOT" be concidered ready to become the only Format! You get nothing
for free from this Audio Market- "EARN IT"! Grow up and
accept it! You can't seem to get others to adopt this Format, pure and simple! Maybe "YOU" are the problem, not
Computer Audio!
Petty, I have left many suggestions and details of my set-up in the other thread - I refer you there. And unlike you I have actually POSTED my set-up on this site so you can refer to my system to see how I have things set up. There's also tons of info out there on the internet which any reasonably intelligent person should be able to sift through. It's all way easier to set up than a turntable, let me assure you.

I have never, EVER said that computer audio has NO WEAKNESSES - again you are completely misquoting me. I have said REPEATEDLY that computer audio is most definitely NOT plug and play and much effort is required. And I think there is general agreement on this. I would think that anyone with enough interest in audio to frequent a forum like this is used to putting in some effort in getting great sound - in fact I'd think most find this fun.

And again, I am not shoving "perfect sound forever" down your or anyone's throat. I have merely said that I have put considerable effort into my computer audio set-up and as a result its fidelity has exceeded the performance of any optical player I've had in my system.

Again, perhaps I need to shout but hopefully you'll listen this time: I am not trying to get anyone to adopt this format. I have no agenda. I could not care less if you adopt computer audio. Like you, I hope that computer audio does not eliminate all other formats - and if you truly believe that its adopters like me are responsible for something like this then you need your head checked.

I have adopted it because in my experience it has given me better fidelity than optical players. Pure and simple.
I am listening, Hfisher3380. Your last response was an
honest assessment of Computer Audio. Still, like pulling teeth to get this honest assessment. Others "DO" believe
that Computer Audio should replace all other Audio Formats.
Creating a Monopoly will never establish an alternate High
End Sound Quality Audio Format. Once other Audio Formats
are gone, the temptation to dumb down Sound Quality for the
sake of profit will be too great. Why would they do it,
because they can, you enabled them to do so, not a damn
thing anyone will be able to do about it, they know that,
you've painted everyone else into a corner, and it is the most profitable- so why not? They wouldn't because they love us? Way too thin for Alpha Format Status. You are
placing your valuable Music in the hands of used car
salesmen. They will lie, cheat, and steal to give you less-
and charge you more for it. You haven't given them any reason "NOT" to do so! This is very troubling to many other
Audiophiles. Need some guarantee, like larger High Rez.
Downloads Music Selection, TO-KEEP-THEM-HONEST! Not another
SACD, not another DVD-Audio! Short Selection List (SACD.DVD-Audio), something is definitely crooked for the third time in a row now. BUYER BEWARE- Computer Audio is no exception! Show me the Music Selection first, last, and
always! Why work harder, and pay more for my Audio Format-
so that we can progress backwards?

You say you listened, but it is obvious from you're last answer you have not. You are just repeating some paranoid idea you have that computers will kill off high quality audio or other quality formats. Please show me the evidence.

No one is dumbing down, cheating or lying if you stick with the established retailers. Piracy is a problem, but I'm sure you can tell the difference.

No one is progressing backwards. You will find everything is available at 16/44.1 (CD quality). Now you will find some 24/44.1 and higher recordings. All the way up to 24/192. At a push you will find higher.

As time goes by there will be more. Give it time to appear. In the meantime you have the recording history upto today available for your listening pleasure. Not enough for you I guess?

Monopoly is an interesting word for you to use. People are using downloads because it's easy, and compatable with all modern equipment, and sounds as good as the orignal recording if kept at original sample rate. i.e. non data compressed.

For portable convenience some use data compression (MP3) to fit numerous albums on their phones/iPods etc. Still sounding way better than the Sony Walkman of the early 80s. But as we are talking about audiophile quality we won't count MP3s. Remember you could keep the original non compressed file in your library, & convert to MP3s to your portable device.

From a technical standpoint some recording masters used to create the glass master for CD manufacture are different to the masters for creating vinyl. This is not because of Microsoft or Apple. Its just the radio loudness war effecting things.

You see Petty, there is no standard anything. Besides you could probably find the masters used for creating the vinyl. After all they too were probably a wav or aiff file anyway...
Only like pulling teeth because you sometimes don't listen to what is actually being said - your own opinions powerfully drowning out any other voices.

I don't remember anyone saying "computer audio SHOULD replace all other formats". Personally, I do believe it WILL likely replace other digital formats but analogue is likely to continue being a niche market. This is not my wish, just market forces. It's just much cheaper for recording companies to offer these digital music files without physical media - and the majority of people are happy with MP3 quality (i.e. the 99% of the population not having these discussions on audio websites). For the rest of us there will be CD or greater quality downloads - as long as it is profitable for the record companies.

Again, this is not my WISH, just what I believe is likely to happen in the next decade or so. And I don't believe it is necessarily anything to fear. CDs don't really offer anything that a downloaded computer file doesn't - other than guaranteed 16/44 storage and something to hold in your hands while the music plays. As long as there is demand for CD or greater quality downloads and the recording industry can profit off of it, it will continue to grow as CD shrinks. Again, all in my opinion.

Please don't turn around and say I want to wipe out all other formats, adopters of high res computer audio want to wipe out other formats, Bill Gates wants to kill our first-born, etc, etc. If anyone is to "blame" here I believe it is the recording companies and the non-audiophile general public - they're the ones happy with MP3s.

Me - I'm more excited at the sound I get from my Mac -> Wavelength front end and at the possibilities of resolution far exceeding redbook CD.
"Someday all New Music will only be available as Music
Downloads". I can guarantee you that it is "NOT" likely
to happen. Computer Audio is still coming out as 50/50.
Half are extremely satisfied, half are extremely dis-satisfied with the Sound Quality. You want to pave over,
sweep under the rug, ignore, ridicule, anyone who has a
serious technical issue with the Sound Quality of Computer Audio. ANYTHING BUT CORRECT IT! You don't correct it, it happens again and again and again. Dis-satisfaction
accumulates, and it will make swiss cheese out of any
likelyhood of Computer Audio replacing all other Formats.
The wheels of Computer Audio are falling off way too many times, the word is already out on the street! I ask you
to atleast glue the wheels back on just to save this Format. You live in denial, and insist that it isn't a problem. Do nothing, and allow Computer Audio to rack up
enough failure to establish a pattern of unreliability.
I was trying to save Computer Audio, but if you want to make me the bad guy trying to end it- guess my job here is done! Computer Audio is likely to shoot itself in the foot
before it ever replaces any Audio Format. With the assistance of Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh, and you guys-
failure is guaranteed! So sad, it had such great potential!
Regarding your quip about ignoring and ridiculing - your continued inability to comprehend what is being said has unintentionally made you the master of irony!

And again, your last post leaves me wondering whether you really believe what you are saying or are just baiting us for chits and giggles.

I mean c'mon:
"The wheels of Computer Audio are falling off way too many times, the word is already out on the street!...I was trying to save Computer Audio, but if you want to make me the bad guy trying to end it- guess my job here is done!...With the assistance of Microsoft, Apple, Macintosh, and you guys- failure is guaranteed!"

Never mind the grammar and punctuation - the tale you tell is gripping! The fallen hero - trying to save Computer Audio but thwarted by us simpletons bowing at the altar of the big computer corporations, all conspiring to destroy music. You, standing as the lone warrior, single-handedly trying to save music as we know it!

You are trying to save computer audio? I asked for real suggestions from you to take to manufactures. You mumbled out garbage. I'm sorry to sound this way, but you have ridiculed everything about computer audio without a single real suggestion of how to fix YOUR COMPLAINTS, not ours. You say yourself that 50% is extremely satified, I'd say it is more like 95%. Have you ever thought about asking someone experienced for advice?
Please state where you get the statistic that 50% are unsatisfied.
Where is did your facts come from that computer audio is unreliable? On this thread there are maybe 20, 25 or so people. I see 1 person complaining, not 50%... unless no one else counts and you are much too late, computer audio has already made it. I hope someday that you can find enough hi res downloads to make you happy. I have about 1800 songs downloaded and I admit only a 100 or so hi res, but I can attest that redbook cd's downloaded are better playing off files from my computer through my dac than any cd player that I've had in my system. I'm sorry that you are unhappy... Life is too short for that. Myself and it seems many others are very happy with our computer audio setups.... Maybe you should go fishin. Life is too short to be this aggrivated. Tim

I actually understand your apprehension when it comes to big corporations and their motives, which are no mystery by the way, and there may be some validity to your fears about what lies in store ahead in terms of recording quality, but there is really nothing new there. High quality recordings and high end audio are luxury items. Look at the glass as half full maybe. There are still a lot of very good recordings available for reasonable cost despite the fact that 99.9% of the world probably doesn't care. NEtwork bandwidth is the bottleneck still for most home computer audio technology. That has always been the prime motivation for "acceptable" lossy formats like mp3, etc. However technology will progress and even that bottleneck will fall eventually and provide a more suitable for high res audio, video, and whatever. TEchnology is still the bottleneck more so than any evil corporate aspirations. You have to have the intrastructure to support hi res digital and that comes with a cost. It will get better over time. Until that happens, CDs and other hard storage formats will not go away. PEoples wants and needs will still drive markets. Audiophiles will always have to pay some degree of a premium somewhere in order to satisfy their luxurious wants and needs.
If you dont believe computer audio has arrived yet as a viable replacement for CD and even vinyl, then you need to go to the Newport Beach show June 1. It will change your thinking. You have not heard anything yet.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Agree with you 100% Mapman. Until this occurs (As you have
described in your response) there is no sense in even talking about doing away with other Audio Formats.
Sometimes New Formats take 5-10 years for greater than 70%
Market penetration. The Tool for this has to be ever
increasing Music Selection. People have to feel that they are not going to lose their favorite Music transitioning to
a New Format, as other competing Formats go by the way side. I still don't see why we shouldn't take advantage of having more than one Audio Format. I know that some believe
in multiple Formats; but, some are just militant about
Computer Audio taking over the entire Audio Market yesterday. They don't seem to care about giving people
enough time to transition. Increase High Rez. Music Selection, so people don't lose their favorite Music when
rug is pulled from under old Audio Format. I look at High
Rez. Download Music Selection, and I don't see a plan for
careful transition to protect everyone's Music. Selection
is slowly increasing, this is changing. Use this Barometer
as a measuring stick to determine if pulling older Audio
Format is premature- adjust accordingly. Impatience is
absolutely "NOT" convenient. Getting rid of all other Audio Formats yesterday, in favor of Computer Audio, is just a Train Wreck- not a transition. No sense being militant about it. New Format (High Rez. Download) should be of higher Sound Quality than old Format (CD). Even swap
of CD for same Rez. Computer Audio is just that- an even swap, or very close. It is not a large step up in transition as High Rez. Downloads would be. This has to be the Golden true measure of transition to a higher Sounding Format. What does second place Computer Audio get you? The
American Public love a winner, and will not tolerate a
loser- it is that simple!
Petty, therein lies one of the big advantages of computer audio - it can be a direct replacement for CDs as well as a high resolution medium. No need to replace your CD collection if computer audio does take hold - just rip your CDs to your hard drive while simultaneously enjoying the option of higher-than-CD resolution. You can have your cake and eat it too.

Again, nobody is "pulling the plug" on any other format. No matter what you or I say, the only way that happens is through market forces. I don't want any format to be wiped out any more than you do - but if computer audio renders CD redundant in the eyes of consumers it will become obsolete.
No sense making something obsolete that doesn't require-
Wasapi, Kernel Streaming, ASIO, That is not subject to
Computer Virus, That is not subject to fragmentation, That
is not subject to Hard Drive Crash, That is not subject to
Back-up Hard Drive Crash, That is not subject to powerful
magnets wiping out memory, That doesn't put your entire
vulnerable Music Collection in one place (Eggs in one basket), That is not subject to Hard Drive Errors...etc...
etc...etc. An extra 5th Wheel? Try an extra 20 Wheel
conglomeration! Compared to that, something that gets by
on four Wheels (CD) is hardly obsolete. Compared to CD,
Computer Audio looks like an Audio Format built by
Committee. It requires massive amounts of redundant steps
easily bypassed with CD. You also don't have to search for Meta Data either. Computer Audio is an Audio Format that is
done the "HARD WAY"! Hardly conductive to relaxation with
Music. I mean waiting three hours to Download High Rez.
Music Files....pop a Disk in a machine and you are done!
No Software, no headaches...just "MUSIC"! If Music is not the point, then what is?

What kind of stereo do you have in that bunker that I know you must have just in case the big one drops?

If it does please save some room for me. I do not have a bunker much less a stereo in it.
Just in case the Big One drops? You mean "SKYNET", the same
loving source for your Computer Audio? I thought that was
just a story! If you are driving a V.W. Bug with 20 Wheels
on it, with a Transmission that has 200 redundant gears,
please drop a big one on that Committee designed monstrosity! Just want to play some Music here, not go to the Moon Mr. Chairman of the Rocket Science Committee.
Computer Audio is going to end up on the same Scrap Heap as the Space Shuttle. The Scrap Heap of obsolete, too many
redundant moving parts, costs way more than you will ever get out of it, Boondoggle. Computer Audio, a Swiss Army
Knife with a Sink- and Sauna attached to it??? What the hell is this for a simple Audio Format? Heaven forbid if
you ever redesigned a Saxaphone- or any other Musical
Instrument! It would require Wasapi, and Kernel Streaming as well- and replace all other Saxaphones. Heaven help us!
Don't you dare touch our Musical Instruments next with your Rocket Science Committee Computer Audio Design
mentality! You are starting to scare the hell out me, and
making that Bunker look a little better! You are more dangerous than the Big One. Is this Nerd Gothic Computer
obsession, or what? Do you also want to create a hundred
redundant steps for me to put on my pants as well? Get yer greedy paws off of my Pants- same for my CDs! Plug
and Play CD doesn't require any "Computer Magic", therefore
it wont waste your time with silly gimmicks- just Music.
You also wont be wasting your time having to design your
Music Storage (Software, Metadata, Music File Format...etc)
from scratch. You already have that in the palm of your
hand- it is called a Shortcut around all of the Computer
Garbage. You know it as a CD. Spend more time listening to
Music, that is it's purpose after all- not trying to decypher the "Matrix".
Hmmmmm...that's strange...most of us don't find it THAT difficult to back up our music collections for safety's sake. It's not THAT difficult! And most of us can somehow do the research and implement a computer audio system that at least equals if not exceeds competitively priced CDPs

But...after all this I guess you're right Pettyofficer, computer audio is just too challenging FOR YOU. Nobody is stopping you from NOT adopting it and using your CDP. We just want you to stop complaining about YOUR problems as if they're OURS - we've actually figured it all out - and we'd be happy to share it with you if you would just listen for once.

No need for you to worry about those of us who have had success with what you find so confusing. By and large we're quite happy with what we're hearing, thank you very much! more challenging, just ten times more
tasking- especially when compared to simple plug-n-play CD.
I am happy with what I am hearing too! Just confused as to
why I should accept ten times more Tasking for replacement
of CD. Paying for it on top of that is a crime against
humanity! This sounds like something they would make you do in North Korea, or something. Don't tow the Party Line on Computer Audio: you get it, your wife gets it, your
children, your parents...etc. Happy for you, happy to share
Audio Market with you. Support you seizing the Audio Market, and turning it into a North Korean Concentration
Camp? You go ahead and try to touch my Relatives, or my CDs! Working longer, and harder for your Music is your choice. Don't deny someone the opportunity to work shorter,
and smarter with way less tasking for their Music! Three
Hour High Rez. Download indeed- this must be a joke! You
are "NOT" welcome very much.
Petty, neither I nor anyone else is denying you anything and I'm not quite sure why you continually state this. Show me the proof that anyone who has adopted computer audio is trying to deny you anything.

These are market forces, pure and simple. You seem to feel we're all out to get you but I promise we're not trying to harm you or your family.

"Support you seizing the Audio Market, and turning it into a North Korean Concentration Camp?" LOL! Come to think of it not much is funny about a concentration camp, but I assume your intent here was humor.
Why not just get a server with it all built in Petty? Bypass all the computer issues.

There is the Weiss MAN202. I have not heard it, but know the DAC section it is based on which is very good. Control it all from an iPad. Sorted.
People, listen. You could dismiss the smooth stylings and gnostic, free-form verse poetry of brother Petty as the incoherent ramblings of a troubled and delusional soul. But before you do -- before you find yourself in the not-too-distant future writhing in consuming agony, together with your family and everyone you care about, in the Korean concentration camps erected by our malignant corporate and/or machine overlords -- just remember. You were warned.

Oh, and one more thing, keep your hands off of his pants.
Chadeffect- I already have a Server without the necessity
of having it all built in. It is called "CD"! It definitely
"BYPASSES" all Computer Issues. Don't make me list those issues again, your wearing me out. You already know them
"If you don't believe that Computer Audio has arrived yet as a viable replacement for CD, or even Vinyl...."
Another Ultimatum?
"Petty, neither I, nor anyone else is denying you
anything and I am not quite sure why you continually state
this. Show me the proof that anyone who has adopted
Computer Audio is trying to deny you anything"
Where I come from this is called Double Talk. Four things
that I believe are worth fighting for: CD, Vinyl, Computer
Audio, and the free use of "ALL" of these Formats. Nothing
is a viable replacement for anything, especially with thin
Music Selection of High Rez. Downloads. Even swap for CD
resolution Downloads are "Even Swap/Second Best"! I love a
winner, and absolutely will not tolerate a loser (Second Best). I am not alone! There are many more who will not accept "Viable Replacement", until issues with Computer Audio are worked out- especially lack of High Rez. Downloads. Show us the money first, otherwise you are just
wasting our time. You are not serious, and Computer Audio
should not be taken seriously- until this changes! No free
rides in this Audio Market. It is all up to you to take the
initiative, don't and Computer Audio can't help but go down in flames- same as SACD/DVD-Audio. Are you going to let SACD/DVD-Audio happen again with Computer Audio? Try
doing something different than those other two Formats, but
you will fight tooth and nail against this! The problem is
that Computer Audio never stood a chance against the likes of you, locked in concrete against any criticism for
improvement. You are strangling it to death, and it is a

So you do not have a server? You have a CD player that can only play red-book and possibly SACD at best. Is that correct?

Sometimes I feel we speak different languages. Am I correct in thinking that you would not even consider something like the Weiss MAN202?

I thought this would be your dream? No computer, just all the convienience of one with a damn good DAC with volume control all activated via an iPad/iPhone etc. You can play CDs as well as all the other files. Surely this has your name on it? Or is that killing off everything & not viable yet?
Petty, it is proof that I asked for - proof that we are trying to wipe out all other formats. This is what you are accusing us of and you have presented no proof at all, just more of your tired diatribe.

Accusing me of double talk? Really?? I call that the pot calling the kettle black.

"Four things that I believe are worth fighting for: CD, Vinyl, Computer
Audio, and the free use of "ALL" of these Formats. "

This is exactly what we have - free use of all these formats. I think your arguments are running out of steam - at least until you show the proof that should be forthcoming with all of your accusations.
What part of, "Soon all New Music will only be available as
Music Downloads" do you not understand?
What part of, "If you don't believe that Computer Audio has
arrived yet as a viable replacement for CD, or even Vinyl..." do you not understand?
These are overt aggressive statements threatening
Impending Doom for all other Audio Formats. These words are
being used to persuade, and convince. Can you read the
"Proof" between the lines of these Statements? Can you read
the intent? What more proof do you need from an Ultimatum?
What does the word "Ultimatum" mean to you- an absence of
proof? Even by definition, an Ultimatum is pretty definitive. It pretty much means "absence of any doubt",
yet you still have your doubts? These are threats, they are meant to cajoule- they are meant to intimidate.
Certainly intimidate those who demand to use other Audio Formats. In case you haven't noticed, I don't give into
intimidation very well. I also demand choices. One choice
is not a Free Market- more like Slavery! Force us into one
Audio Format with "Impending Doom" statements like these-
is overt aggressive Slavery. Freedom is giving Consumers the power of choice, not using Impending Doom Intimidation
to eliminate choice. There is a big difference even if you can't see it. One means that you are under threat if you
don't comply with your Audio Format Purchases- got it?
Yeah, this makes my skin crawl alright! Like having a gun
held to your head. You are being hyper aggressive shoving
Computer Audio down everyone's throat, some are bound to
be a little aggressive right back. You are surprised?
I thought we were just talking about listening to a few tunes. I enjoyed mine last night, all redbook stuff downloaded to my PC. Beats my old CD player... you remember when CD's were DOOMED?
Did you try my "going fishin" suggestion? Why all this stress?
Poor Pettyofficer,

Change is the only guarantee. Nothing stands still. Doomed is the thing that does.

I can feel your pain. Market forces are cornering you. I'm sure you'll be able to find your other formats in the future. You could even burn (I mean record!) your own CDs.

But I and others have given you all the information you need to escape being like the doomed dinosaurs looking up at that meteor coming at them.

Just like them, you will see the dust will settle & leave smaller more efficient critters to go further than any giant lizard ever dreamed of.

You are just experiencing the convergence of medias & their technologies. It is, & will be amazing in everyway. You must have been unlucky so far.

But I have heard the finest quality from some of these devices with excellent interaction, control & freedom. You obviously have not. That is a shame. But not surprising.

Everything is moving very fast, which means you have to too, or be left behind with all your vinyl & magnets.

We are even seeing the end of the USA & europe as dominant global powers... Who would have thought that would happen quite so fast? Will you still be listening to vinyl when the Yen is the new global currency & oil a fuel of the past?