Should Sound Quality of Computer Audio be improved

Unable to respond to, "Mach2Music and Amarra: Huge Disappointment"- Thread. Other Members take free pop-shots!
Apparently some have more Freedom Of Speech than others! I
don't know how many times I have said it, I want Computer
Audio to succeed! It will only succeed if Computers are designed from the ground up to reproduce Music (Same minimum standard applied for Equipment of ALL Audio Formats)! This is common sense Audio Engineering Design. Bandaid Modifications cannot be substituted for absence in design to produce Music! Design it right to EARN the right to become a New Audio Format- same as all other Audio Formats! No Freebee's, No Cutting Corners! Lack of design is what's causing such varied results in S.Q. between
listeners of Computer Audio. I see about 50% negative
responses here on these Threads. It will continue to happen unless you fix it! Blaming me won't help! I am an
Engineer, and I can read results! 50/50 success/ failure
rate- you have an inherit Engineering Design Flaw for the
reproduction of Music via Computers! Shock! Suprise- since
they were never designed for Music! So when is someone finally going to properly design the Equipment/Computer
(From the ground up) for Computer Audio? Do we continue
to treat any real criticism as "HERESY" in the lack of
design in Computer Audio for Music? You tell me what I am
allowed to talk about, and we will both know!
Petty, these are not threats or ultimatums. They are predictions. They may or may not come true. Nobody is putting a gun to your head other than you in your wild imagination - unless you're just messing with us.

"Soon all new music will only be available as downloads". A threat?

"If you don't believe that Computer Audio has
arrived yet as a viable replacement for CD, or even Vinyl..."

You can't be serious. The only one using aggressive, even over-the-top language around here is you. Many of us on this forum actually do think that our server systems give us better sound quality than CD. Many of us are somehow able to get them to work for us. But nobody has uttered a word of aggression towards anyone who doesn't share their opinions or beliefs.

Nobody is "holding a gun to your head" and forcing you to comply with anything. Nobody is putting you in a North Korean concentration camp. These are merely beliefs - if you don't agree that CD's days are numbered then that is your prerogative. In the end it doesn't matter what you or I think - market forces will decide. If there is enough interest in CDs they will remain a viable alternative - if there isn't they won't. Simple as that. No guns, mobs or concentration camps necessary!
When someone is aggressive against your Audio Format, and
intends to replace all Audio Formats with Computer Audio,
time to go fishing? You give grief, you get it right back.
You give stress, you get it right back. Call it
Phycological Reciprocity, Karma, or whatever you want to call it. I call it trying to push someone's button, or
pull their string. You are left with no choice; but, to return the favor, unless you look weak. No aggression here
about replacing Computer Audio with another Audio Format.
Why this militant aggression of forcing Computer Audio to
replace all other Audio Formats? I want "Live and Let Live"
with all Audio Formats including Computer Audio. You want
"Live, and Wage War to Eliminate All Other Audio Formats"!
You are turning it into some kind of a Crusade or something. Yes, we all know what happened to all non-
believers during the last Crusade- it was very stressful!
Not alot of time for fishing. So when someone starts
talking about starting another Crusade, that is when
"Fight or Flight Response" kicks in. It is sort of like being the Fish on the recieving end of that hook and rod.
Just because you find it relaxing, doesn't mean the Fish
feel relaxed as well. When you are being hunted your stress
level has a tendency to go up a notch. You want me, the
Consumer, to look weak and helpless having to rely on only
one Audio Format- Computer Audio. This instead of having
purchasing power to select amongst many Audio Formats.
You want all Consumers to become like "Fish out of Water"?
Why, what did we ever do to you? We aren't Fish, so stop
trying to treat us as such!
Petty, the only one behaving with militant aggression is you. I'm guessing it's because you came onto a computer audio forum with your own anti-computer audio bias and agenda, posed a question and (surprise, surprise) were disagreed with. At first it wasn't just disagreement but also some attempts at helpful suggestions - which you basically ignored and/or ridiculed. You then completely misinterpreted this for aggression, ultimatums, threats etc. It's actually becoming quite comical - that's the only reason why I'm still discussing this with you. It's kinda fun and entertaining to see what outrageous comment you'll utter next as your argument completely self-destructs. As a result, you have completely side-tracked YOUR original thread, which was dealing with SOUND QUALITY. Now your talk is of aggression, militancy, concentration camps, a gun to your head, mobs. It is completely ludicrous.

I'll say it one last time - we are simply a group of people who have adopted and enjoy computer and server-based audio. Just like vinyl lovers may feel their format is superior, so may computer audio enthusiasts. That does NOT mean we are out to get you or are trying to humiliate you.

Seriously, you need to get a grip on yourself. Or perhaps try medicating yourself. Or perhaps just stop pulling our legs - because honestly your posts are becoming more and more unbelievable.
"Just because you find it relaxing, doesn't mean the Fish
feel relaxed as well."

That's a great line Petty.

Just so I understand, is what you are recommended to battle the tyranny rained upon us that we only play our CDs on CD players and not rip them to computer for playback? And never download any music under any circumstances?

I think we get your point. Now tell us the right things to do to battle this oppression.

How do we know if we are successful? CD sales per year start going back up maybe?

Honestly, I probably already own most of the music I know of that I really care about. I have such a backlog of things to listen to these days (thanks to digital audio and the internet) that I find it hard justifying buying more. There is just so much to soak in...its somewhat overwhelming. SOmetimes I truly wish AL Gore never invented the internet!
"You want"Live, and Wage War to Eliminate All Other Audio Formats"! Not true!
"You want "Live, and Wage War to Eliminate All Other Audio Formats" Not True!
"You want me, the Consumer, to look weak and helpless having to rely on only one Audio Format- Computer Audio"
Not True!
Petty Officer, if I understand you correctly, you don't use computer audio.. all anyone here has done is try to be convincing why you might try it and why we love it. No one has tried to KILL all other audio formats. I have a turntable, 2 cd players and a tuner. I use computer audio. The only militant responses have been yours.
Sorry I recommended you go fishing, didn't think you would act like the fish was a relative or something. Yes, I'm sure there is more stress for the fish. I solve stress kicking back and listening to tunes and yes, most often using computer audio.... I can see there is no convincing you this is a good format, you constantly turn suggestions and our own experience into battles and then call all of us Militant. I'm on no crusade brother and done with this thread. Enjoy your tunes everyone, I'll talk with you on some other pages. Tim
"I want-Live And Let Live- with all Audio Formats, including Computer Audio"! Sheesh- I have to quote myself?
Can you guy's read? Did I.Q.'s just drop off sharply?
Mapman- you are completely way off base! I want to be able to play my CD's in a CD Player, and be able to Rip them- I
want both! I also want to be able to Download. I do not want one to be mutually exclusive of all others, as some
Computer enthusiasts would desire. I do use Computer Audio,
and CD, SACD, DVD-Audio, XRCD, K2 HDCD. I pick and choose
the Sound Quality that I like across many Formats. Most
Formats sound like a mixed bag of S.Q.! Same release in
one Format might sound wonderful, in another Format it
sounds awful. Different release ends up in reverse order.
People are generalizing about which Format sounds best.
Whatever your preferences may be. A single Audio Format,
Computer Audio Downloading, eliminates my purchasing power
by minimizing my choices as a Consumer of other Audio Formats. This would be desirable for Manufacturer's to
maximize profits. It would also allow Manufacturer's to
shoot Consumers like "Fish in a Barrel". This is what you
think the Market will dictate, no matter what you or I think; But, you desire it never the less. Yes, the Market can dictate a Monopoly of only one Audio Format. No one likes a Monopoly that makes the American Consumer weak, and
helpless. Eliminate the purchasing power of the Consumer, and there will be a backlash! Backlash against what? The
only thing that you will be left with will be Computer Audio. You want to exclude other Audio Formats, and you are very aggressive towards that goal. I am arguing a losing battle of inclusion, which you seem to be picking apart like meat off of a corpse! Not exactly Live and Let Live towards all other Audio Formats. Make up your mind what you really want! You can't be a Predator, and be polite towards your Prey (Other Audio Formats)- maybe if
you were a Spider you might be a little bit more convincing. If you call my other Audio Formats Prey, I believe you. You think that you can be polite about it?
Petty, this is the last thing I'm going to say to you because I think this has been done to death:


Believe it or not, I know what I want - and it's not what you seem to think I want- so stop thinking it!
Wow, hit a nerve? I am not trying to tell you what you want, I am trying to understand what "IT IS" that you want
with: "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music
Downloads"! It would appear that you desire a vacuum of any
other competing Audio Format, and the elimination of any
alternate purchasing choices that I might have. I am kind of surprised by this! You say that the Market will dictate
this regardless of what you desire. We call that a
"Monopoly" in a Capitalist Society "WHENEVER" a Manufacturer manipulates the Market towards a single
purchasing choice. You say that this is the way it is going to be. I say that it is very, very, very bad- and
requires immediate correction. Any Monopoly always turns out to be bad for the Consumer, even eventually bad for the
Manufacturer, and especially bad for the Market (This case:
Audio)! Economic History bears this out, it isn't even
close to being arguementative- from the Great Depression to
our current Recession. Monopolies collapse- and you want to put Computer Audio in the middle of this collapse? Well,
I guess that will leave us with "No Audio Format"! Thanks
alot for looking after us instead of your ego.
Sorry Petty, only so much of this twisted logic, revisionist history and paranoia I can take. I see most gave up on you a long time ago - now I am doing the same. I'm outta here.
Petty everything moves on. Change is universal. Nothing stands still. You are seeing the dawn of medias all converging.

The equipment is better than its ever been, and I'm sure it will continue to refine & redefine. Whether other formats survive or not only time will tell. But if they do not, I doubt it will because of any of our opinions. It's a global market.

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few! You can still burn (record!) your own CDs if you wish. I suspect the devices of the future will be so compact & multifunctional that software (records) that need their own separate hardware to just to do one thing (I.e TT/CD players/Reel to Reel/DATs etc) will be forgotten.

It will just mean that the software will be played on all devices with no need for all these hard formats. Don't worry it will be much better.
I agree Gsself - and interestingly the one who started it ultimately hijacked it! Could be an Audiogon first!
Get over yourself- Gsself! Simple differences of opinion are not "Train Wrecks", more akin to a "Democracy"?
Revisionist History? I can't think of a single Monopoly
where the Economy thrived- going back thru the entire
Economic History of the U.S.! Perhaps I am wrong, can you give me an example? I believe that they have a tendency to
cause Recessions, and Depressions. The Audio Market is, after all a Market. I don't believe that it is immune to these. Change can either be good, offering more choices for
the Consumer empowering him. Change can also be bad, eliminating options that limit the Consumer depowering him.
I am simply trying to acknowledge the economic risk here
for the Consumer, in limiting his options to just only one
Audio Format- Computer Audio Downloading. The risk here is
in making Audio so irrelevant (Compared to other popular Computer Functions) that even Computer Audio goes by the
wayside. As you said, "Change is universal, nothing stands still"! Nothing makes Audio more irrelevant than lower than
CD Resolution MP3. Keep on lowering the resolution to the point of irrelevancy/ oblivion. Why waste the Processing
Power keeping it around? If your idea of change is to make
Audio irrelevant to its inevitable end, I disagree with you that this is a "Good Idea" for change sake only. Needs
of the many, the many need Music- not Audio made irrelevant
no matter how much Profit can be made off of this. Your
type of change puts the needs of the Computer over the needs of Audio, especially Computer Audio. How does this
help us who are in the Consumer business of Audio? We pay
more, we get less resolution/sound quality. "WOW- I'll buy
THAT for a dollar"!
Petty, your premis continues to be wrong.

I have explained MP3. You can choose if you want higher rez. So get off that argument of low bandwidth. It's a red herring. If anything, CD is low bandwidth today.

You have more choice than ever. In fact you could even download music which never would have been put out by a record company. New artists with no A&R interference. Pure expression if you are lucky or interested.

What you don't seem to understand is the music is stored as a file which can be read by any entertainment device or computer. So you are free to play music in pretty much any environment. That is good. I don't see how it makes audio irrelevant? It makes it accessible. And if you want to get all audiophile you can.

Which bit do you not understand? Pardon the pun.
I compare Music Selection between lower than CD resolution
MP3, and Music Selection of High Rez. Downloads. What a
difference, and "NO" your explanation of low rez. MP3
doesn't even come close to covering this point spread. You
think that Computer Audio is a done deal, extreme limitation in Music Selection of High Rez. Downloads "SCREAMS" different! It screams uncertainty. So
long as your Computer Audio High Rez. remains uncertain, I
have nothing to take to the Bank- and neither do you! Same
uncertainty existed in Music Selection for SACD, and DVD
Audio- where did they go? Going down the exact same road
for a third time, this time it will lead us someplace
different? You want everyone to drop their existing Audio Format, and come along for the ride? All of us being
connvinced that this time it will be different? We were
robbed investing in these other two Formats with limited
Music Selection. You want to lure us with the same limited Music Selection again in High Rez. Computer Audio? No Sir,
you show us the Product first BEFORE we invest in it! You
got no Product? Well, then you've got nothing to replace all other Audio Formats with- atleast something of
significant Higher Resolution. Try EARNING our trust instead of just demanding it on a silver platter. This makes you upset- tough! Can't stand the heat, get out of the Audio Market. We want to buy Music, not Software! You
have very little of either in High Rez., and you want to
brag about replacing all other Audio Formats? Bragging rights have to be "EARNED", and you haven't earned yours yet. Keep working on it!
I've asked this question in an older post but haven't received an answer. I'll try one more time.

Pettyofficer: Where do you get your acid and how do I get some?

Don't you understand that you can use your CDs in a computer? You can rip it at CD quality if you like. Or just play it. If ripped, it can even sound better than the original!

As many have said above NO ONE IS REPLACING other formats. But you are correcting in thinking sooner or later it probably will, as technology moves on it will. Market forces, plus an unnessassary extra manufacturing process to make CDs etc from the studio master file.(WAV or AIFF)

BUT (!) You can download anything you like at normal(CD) resolution. MP3s are available to as a convenient way for those who wish to store many tracks at lower quality. But that is your choice. You can choose CD quality or higher if you want. You can keep that original and convert to MP3s for the car or your phone/iPod.

Just remember the CDs you like & the vinyl you like we're probably mastered as files! Got it? The glass master to manufacture the CD is cut from the file(wav/aiff). Keep up.
"This thread is train wreck..."

Petty is your real identity really Joseph Broady?

Better slow down....
"You can chose CD quality or higher if you want", haven't
I just been gripping about lack of Music Selection in High
Rez. (higher?) Downloads- and I am not keeping up? High
Rez. Downloads are what's not keeping up, more or less
ready to replace all other Audio Formats! You don't have
the product to sell; never-the-less, you are going to phase
out all product from other competing Audio Formats. Train
Wreck- this sounds like your trying to run your Train
(High Rez. Computer Audio) without any track! We tried this
with SACD/DVD-Audio, and they both ended in a ditch.
I wonder why- duhhh! You are going to try it a third time
with a Minimum Music Selection again, with High Rez.
Downloads. I must be on acid to "EXPECT THE EXACT SAME
RESULT AGAIN"! "NO ONE IS REPLACING other Formats". They are just going to disappear by osmosis? You know that when
Magicians make things disappear- it is not real Magic,
right? Oh, but maybe you do believe in real Magic. You have
nothing of higher Rez. than CD to replace CD- minimum
selection at best. You want to replace all other Railroads
after you have run your Train off of the track. I prefer to be on the Railroad that not only keeps its Trains on the Track, but reliably keeps them running on time. Crazy
me, on Acid, and practicing Defensive Consumer Purchasing-
demanding to see Product (High Rez. Music Selection) that
you don't have to sell. Why not just sell Hot Air, or Helium- same damn thing! Is that what you are selling- High
Rez. Downloadable imaginary Pet Rocks. You get holier than thou when someone refuses to buy them. I don't need to
purchase imaginary anything- you have nothing to sell. Keep
working on it!
No you haven't been gripping about the lack of hi res. You have been gripping about losing formats that are likely to be left behind when in your opinion the replacement is not ready. & gripping how great every other format sounds in comparison, & how you were ripped off by SACDs, & how Microsoft & apple are killing off music & making it irrelevant.

But I challenged these notions by saying all your formats (hi res or not)were likely to be made from these files for at least the last 10-15 years & are compatible with everything while having the same master source quality.

There is no railway just open land to cross any way you prefer. Freedom. Play any file type anywhere with no need for bulky specialist hardware like TTs.

I have repeatedly explained that Downloadable file formats are (or can be) an exact copy of the studio master. And no matter what comes along you will always be able to play these files regardless of their resolution. They are standard. Everything plays them or can convert them.

All modern studios are 24/192 compatable now. So the high resolution formats you seem to be looking for will become more & more available.

But in the meantime there are plenty of recordings to be had. But don't be fooled. The recording is what is important. Not just the resolution.
Chadeffect- most of what you say is true; however, I have
been griping about lack of "Music Selection" in High Rez.
Downloads- prior to replacing any Audio Format. You have
been countering that CD Resolution Downloading is better
than CD, and that CD Ripping sounds better than CD. You
say that is improvement enough. I say the improvement is like the difference between CD and SACD, where did that get us with SACD? Minimum Music Selection with High Rez.
Downloads as well as SACD, where did that get us with SACD? Where is it supposed to get us with High Rez. Downloads? There is no plan here to get us to "Soon all
New Music will only be available as Music Downloads".
Are those Downloads supposed to be CD resolution, or High Rez.? What exactly are you planning on replacing other Audio Formats with, CD resolution downloads, or High Rez.
downloads? If it is going to be 99% CD resolution, some might think that all of the extra effort (Software,
Configuration, MetaData, Wasapi, Kernel Streaming...etc)
might not be worth replacing some Audio Formats. Some might
think that 99% High Rez. is a Bridge a few light years too far to bet the Farm (Other Audio Formats) on. Reasonable
people can reason differently. That is the reason that I
do not believe that "Soon all New Music will only be available as Music Downloads' is written in concrete. It
sounds like the unsinkable Titanic, or the unsinkable
Battleship. These are either Myths, or the best layed plans
of Mice and Men failing badly. If you think that this is
"Good S__t", you haven't seen nothin' yet! This is just
too thin to take to the Bank, more or less replace all
other Audio Formats with. Keep working on it!
I think you need to assume that downloads will be at least the same as CD res. (if not MP3). If the vendor offers higher res for download then it will say the option 192/24 etc.

Where I live the high st music & film stores are gone due to the market moving to download etc. no myth. Gone. The record labels have already done the deals with iTunes & various online libraries. The conduit for marketing & online availability is done. Go look. It's all there. Anything you want.

Forget the hassle you are having with your pc for a moment. Meta data, ASIO etc forgotten. mac have that sorted, & Microsoft is not that far behind, but the apps to drive online libraries do it all.

Your argument is mute. iPods/iPads/smartphone/Bd & DvD players all are compatible these days. Choose bandwidth & press play or stream or download & enjoy.
" Where I live the high st music & film stores are gone due
to the market moving to download etc, no myth. ", same here
Chadeffect. Why then does everyone keep saying that no-one
is threatening my free use of CD? Why does everyone keep
demanding "PROOF" of this? Why do you guy's keep arguing
conflicting aspects of the same arguement? In any regard,
my arguement is "NOT" mute. This is a Monopoly that you are
describing. Monopolies do not supply high quality at low cost- that means high quality like High Rez. Downloads. They may be available temporarily as a hook to get more interested. They will quickly disappear due to the same
market that you describe. Manufacturer's will quickly
realize that most of market is purchasing CD Rez. Computer
Audio, not High Rez. Profits will dictate the market, High
Rez. just doesn't have the profit margin. Now that we have
put all of our eggs in one basket ( By allowing market to
eliminate all other competing Audio Formats ), this will be
the final blow to High Rez. anything. Proof of this- SACD,
DVD Audio! Where did they go? This is the market risk to
any consumer of Audio products. It is the risk that any
consumer faces dealing with a Monopoly on Audio Formats.
We end up being like fish out of water. Better yet, we end up being fish in a barrel for Manufacturer's to take pop
shots at. I am not anti-Capitalist. Fact is I am pro Capitalist by being anti-Monopoly. Monopolies only hurt
Markets- that includes the Audio Market! Monopolies
themselves are anti-Capitalist since there is no competition- so where is the competition here in this Audio Market?
No! The high res download is different to the SACD &DVDA problems. As I explained, you do not need Specialist/elitest/expensive equipment to play high res files. That is why SACD suffered.

The beauty now is everything can play these files. Also high res does not need any extra process to make it. The master usually is high res. so if anything, it's more work to dither down to CD quality or lower.

There is no risk, as whatever kit you buy will play all the above, and if not, the file could easily be converted to what you need.

You will always get CDs as a physical disk. There are so many already manufactured. You will just order them from storage places like amazon's warehouses. But just remember the polution they cause...

Is it a monopoly that Ford don't make a model T anymore? What replaced it was way better so the T became history. A mark to show how far we have come. Can't you see that?
No getting you, Chadeffect. How is the requirement of
getting a DAC that can decode: 16/44.1, 24/88, 24/96, 24/176, 24/192, and any additional Sampling Rates to be
inserted inbetween these- not elitist? You are going to need a Specialist/ Elitist/ Expensive DAC every Month for
each additional Sampling Rate. A New DAC every Month,
sounds expensive to me! Ditto for USB to Digital
Converter, or USB Input for DAC.
Poor example of model T, since only Ford made model
T car. Ford is hardly the only car Manufacturer today-
where is the potential for Monopoly? Monopolies are
created by minimizing the purchasing choices that
Consumers have. Eliminating all other Audio Formats for
the sake of one, Computer Audio, certainly minimizes
Consumer Purchasing Choices. This gives the Manufacturers
more power to enforce an anti-Capitalist Monopoly, and
leaves the Consumer weaker to defend against a Monopoly
take over of a Capitalist Audio Market. We are going to
be the Computer Audio Manufacturer's "B_TCH" for a good
long time. Hardly in a position to demand higher quality
(High Rez. Downloads) with more Music Selection. You take
what they give you in a Monopoly, or you don't get the
"Son of a B_TCH". That means whatever has the most profit
margin that benefits the Manufacturer only! Your conciderations of High Rez. become irrelevant compared to
profit. You don't have the alternate purchasing choice as
leverage, you gave that away in the form of alternate Audio
Formats. You do yourself no favors, nor anyone else. Can't
you see that?
Wow, I've not looked at this thread in 2 weeks, pop on to find the same ole LAME arguments going on (that make no sense) by Petty Officer.
No one is going to get through to this guy, we are now imperialist, capitalist, Elitist....
And those terrible manufacturers that are in business to make money... How dare they!
He is obviously ticked that he sunk a bunch of money into a couple of formats that didn't make it.... That has nothing to do with computer audio.
and Pettyofficer....YOU telling everyone what WE think and what WE believe and what WE are doing is really tiring.....Especially when you are wrong about it all...
I feel for you, but you are beating on about 25 or 30 audiophiles.... Take your battle to the blood sucking pig elitist, capitalist, imperialist, communist...oh wait you didn't say communist did you, YOU are just acting like one..If you are an engineer,build the products that you so hardily fight for and take it to the bank... You can then join the club.
Like I said before, quit responding to his rants and he will go away. It's his M.O. if you guys haven't noticed. Next week it will be something else he'll jump on the soapbox about.I gather,by his username, that he is an old wore out retired Navy man with nothing else to do in his life. You can never have a rational conversation with him because he is always right no matter what the subject is. Believe me, I've been around plenty of guys like this.
Loving your tenacity Pettyofficer,

All recent DACs do the sample rates you mention & will continue to do so.

If you have a really old DAC that at best will do 44.1k, then you can dither down to that, while keeping the original file safe until you get a newer DAC. Even your phone will do most of these rates!

Forget the model T. You know what I'm getting at. Don't be a dinosaur. Good DACs are cheap, very good & will do all the rates you need. Better than the highly rated old DACs of the past. It all moved forward & the chip sets got cheaper.

To answer the rest of your 050112 post you may as well read my above posts as we have already been there.

I'm am sorry you don't seem to get the gist of it. You can't say I did try to help you. You have all the choice you could wish for. Possibly too much!

Understand the beauty of the file as a format, everything reads it these days, & always will. If you want to play CDs why not just burn your own from the file. All computers will do that.

Thank you Pettyofficer old friend. It was fun. I never posted so much. Now I must say goodbye. Embrace the future.
Timlub- you haven't seen my responses for the last two weeks. You jump into the middle of the conversation, and start hurling unsubstantiated allegations.
Tpreaves- you start making general broad strokes about
someones personnal life that you know nothing about. You
have never met me, you know absolutely nothing about me.
You decide to make it up as you go along.
If this reflects the attitude of those who wish to
promote Computer Audio, your attitude speaks volumes. Is
this what Computer Audio does to everybody? Why would this
Audio Format create this type of attitude in people, as
opposed to all other Audio Formats? I use Music for
personal enjoyment, not to polish my ego- nor to rub
someone's nose in it. I enjoy having choices in multiple Audio Formats, I have more choices to make based on Sound
Quality. I do not take an elitist attitude that only one
Audio Format is the Elite compared to all others. I hear
mixed bag of Sound Quality when comparing Audio Formats,
none of them hardly elite above all others. You can call me names, or whatever- I am sticking to this! I do use
Computer Audio, on those selections that it does provide
better Sound Quality. Use it exclusively, and I lose other
better sounding options on certain selections. I am a
Consumer interested in the best quality, and I go where I
find the best quality. You wish to eliminate those places
( Music CD Stores ), or make me have to purchase over
longer distance- and pay extra for shipping. Make me wait weeks to listen to Music CD instead of just taking it home
from the Store. I know these are road blocks designed to
corral people towards Computer Audio. It is this manipulation that bothers me the most. If Computer Audio is the Answer to Life/ Universe/ and Everything- why would
you need to manipulate anyone? Your attitude speaks volumes
about your intent to manipulate. Try selling Computer Audio
instead of just pulling everyone's string, and pushing their buttons. People will resent it less, I certainly
would. You have to force everyone to listen to Computer
Audio exclusively? Why, what's wrong with it? That is what
I ask. All that I hear is what's right with it- so why
the necessity to manipulate?
PettyOfficer, there is no such thing as format competition, nor is there any such thing as a format monopoly. The "CD monopoly" didn't edge out 8 track tapes, nor did the "DVD monopoly" edge out Laserdisc. 8 track and Laserdisc were simply inferior formats that fewer and fewer people bought. The smaller the market, the more companies would need to charge to continue printing media in these formats. Eventually, bicycles with two equal-sized wheels edged out bicycles with huge rear wheels -- this was not a equal-sized-wheel bicycle monopoly, just a market shift.

Here's another analogy. In the robber baron age, Carnegie steel and a number of other competing companies merged to form U.S. Steel -- a true monopoly. They were a monopoly because, if you wanted steel, you had to buy from them. They were basically no other companies selling steel, and new companies could not start because the competition from U.S. steel was overwhelming. The steel itself was the commodity, however, and that's what was monopolized. Today, music is the commodity, not CDs (or SACDs, or DVD-Audio, or HDCD). Hundreds of companies sell you music, and they compete against each other. They sell through different websites, different services, etc.

I see that you want other options, but those options will, some day, disappear. This is not due to some conspiracy, or some conscious marketing ploy to replace CD with downloads, but because companies make less and less money on sales of physical media, and so they stop printing them. In the end, the competition is not over formats, but over music. These companies' competition comes from other companies' music, not other companies' formats.

Do you disagree?
Wow! Thread resurrected? Tbeebout of course everything you say makes perfect sense - but this thread died because we got tired of trying to reason with pettyofficer - he has his agenda and cannot be reasoned with.

However, he has bravely chosen to fight the corruption of the computer audio industry and save music from certain death so we need not fear!
"Just when I am almost out, they drag me back in"!
I was done with this Thread, now I feel that I am in
an Episode of the "Walking Dead"! Of course the marketing
idea is to put Computer Audio (especially Downloads) in
direct competition with other Audio Formats. The competition is deadly with Computer Audio Proponents going
for the throats of other Formats. How many more "Ultimatums" have to be stated by these Proponents?
If the decision was based on strictly sound quality alone,
that would be one thing. Instead I hear convenience, MP3
lower than CD resolution, and Downloads of equal resolution
as CD- High Resolution being a small minority of these. With Hard Drive Errors, Hard Drive Crash, Back-up Hard Drive Crash, Fragmentation, Viruses, Malware- where is the
quality? You have more software between you, and your Music
than you ever had with a CD. User friendly goes right out the window with the loss of plug-n-play CD. Computer Audio makes as much sense as a nuclear powered Can Opener. There
are easier ways, with alot less tasking, to listen to your
Music. More complicated, more moving parts, less user
friendly, Chaos Theory inviting- and still I use Computer Audio only during those instances when the Sound Quality presents itself! I have done the homework, and there are other Formats that have instances of sounding better. I am greedy! I am a Consumer. I look for many avenues of
quality. A Format has to "E-A-R-N" my business. Pulling
strings, pushing buttons, eliminating alternatives,
issuing Ultimatums- THIS only earns my consternation.
I still hold out hope that someday low Res. MP3, CD Res.
Downloads, will blossom into High Res. of real higher
quality. So long as High Res. remains in a strict minority
Computer Audio hasn't earned the right to replace anything.
Five year olds Downloading Music, isn't going to change that. You can put them in charge of running your Family, if
that is the case. If Computer Audio sounds slightly better
than CD, so did SACD without all of the user unfriendly
software hassle/ tasking- what is the point? Spend time
playing with Software, or spend it playing Music- your
choice. I demand that choice! Of course they call me
"Certifiable" for that! So what- commit me!
"Computer Audio makes as much sense as a nuclear powered Can Opener. "

Great line PO!

Thank God PEtty is back among us. PO, please, save us!!
Petty officer, you actually inferred that computer audio is better than cd, as was sacd... wow, a very big step for you. I have heard that a WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE invested in sacd over that "slightly better" difference...
I'm sure that you feel attacked by this thread... My issue is that it seems that you keep making it personal toward all of us computer audio lovin thugs rather than just the arguments of computer audio alone. I've seen printed YOU THINK more times than worth counting... where does Ulitimatum come from?
What it comes down to is Value for me. I have a computer audio setup that competes if not betters some of the best CD players on the market at pricing that I could afford where the best cd was out of my reach and yes, when you combine this sound quality with convenience it makes this a no brainer for me... I must say though if it didn't have this level of sound quality, I'd throw convenience out the window. Just as you, I am greedy also, I want it all, Computer audio, so far has come the closest in giving me all.
It sounds like you have terrible computer problems with all the issues that you have described, good luck finding a better computer, so far, mine has been flawless and I have been very happy with computer audio. I wish the same audiophile happiness to you and to all, Tim
"I have a computer audio setup that competes if not betters some of the best CD players on the market at pricing that I could afford where the best cd was out of my reach and yes, when you combine this sound quality with convenience it makes this a no brainer for me.."

Me too. Good point!
For me it still remains a mixed bag of sound quality across
all Formats. Anyone says that they have never heard a really lousy Vinyl Record, lousy High Res. Download, lousy
sounding SACD/ DVD Audio/ or CD- I certainly don't believe
them! Way too many broad strokes. I will hop from one Format to the next to get the sound quality I want, and
pick-choose along the way. All of that goes out the window
if "Soon all new Music will only be available as Music Downloads". That is the ultimatum of impending doom. It is
meant as a warning that soon you won't be able to rely on
any other Audio Formats. It is meant to cajoule, herd,
panic, and stampede. It is phsycological extortion- a tool
to pull peoples strings regardless weither it is fact or not. It is not a true measure of the worthiness in quality
of a new Format if the purpose is to panic everyone.
Competition among many Formats is the only way to keep
sound quality standards high. Single Format exclusiveness
only goes the way of irrelevancy like the DO-DO Bird and
eight track. We certainly didn't concider "Soon all new Music will only be available on 8-Track". Sound Quality
in the Market would have been ALOT different if we had.
Thank God we held onto other Formats! This costs Manufacturers Profits to maintain High Sound Quality. Their
goal is to still corral the Audio Market around a single
Format. Eliminate the competing Formats that compels them
to dip into their Profits to maintain high sound quality-
i.e. low res. MP3. No reason to replace all Formats with an
exclusive one, unless it is for Profit. Sound Quality goes
down (MP3) only to boost Profits up. They maintain a
stranglehold on releases available as High Res. Downloads.
It is a trickle, but it is getting better. If you see a
flood, that is the time to concider exclusively switching
Formats. It is a Chicken vs Egg business proposition with
these characters. Don't trust their promises on High Res.
Downloads yet- same promises made with SACD! Make them
show us the product first. Common sense Consumer Protectionism, but what do I know? I am crazy, ask anyone!
"Competition among many Formats is the only way to keep
sound quality standards high. "

There are many downloadable digital formats available at all resolutions, less than, equal to, and greater than CD redbook. FUrthermore, conversion among them as needed is quite straightforward from a technical perspective, though not always very user friendly to date, but that will improve over time and should become totally transparent to the user at some point.

VInyl will likely retain a (small) niche as well for those who want to go that way.

So I really do not see a problem. Other than that we all know that corporations often worship at the alter of the mighty dollar, yen, gold, or whatever monetary standard is preferred.
Hi Pettyofficer, Do you go over to the analog forum and beat down the vinyl only guys? Don't they need to expand their minds?
I believe that we all appreciate and respect a vinyl lover, I've never seen a harsh word from you toward vinyl... Computer audio is certainly the most growing segment of the industry, but if you don't think someone would jump on another winning format???? You Did, are you more or less intelligent than someone that hasn't used as many formats as you have? I still have vinyl, I am going to sell my tubed CD player soon, for me, I'm done with it. If another winning format comes along, you can bet that I, you and most other audiophiles will check it out... this pending doom is a bunch of bull.
You've taken a alot in this thread, i appologize for any part that I've had in that, please just stop making things personal and you will find more friendly responses. Even though I disagree with you, you've stood your ground voraciously, I have to respect that.... Good luck with your tunes, Tim
Psssst....hey guys, I think Pettyofficer may be on to us. Y'know...our
conniving plan to wipe out all other Audio Formats and
shove Computer Audio down His Throat yesterday? He may be on to
the fact that we are in cahoots with Bill Gates and the ghost of
Steve Job to turn the Audio Market into a Monopoly. Heck, I'm even
beginning to Suspect that he is aware of Our Plan to get him into a
North Korean Concentration Camp where he has to listen to MP3's of
Nickelback on a Bose Wave system for 2 years straight. OK the interest of not getting caught I suggest you all
Disband and go your Separate you were!!
"Soon all new Music will only be available on Vinyl Disk",
Nope- haven't heard that from Vinyl Enthusiasts.
"Soon all new Music will only be available as SACD",
Nope- haven't heard that from SACD Enthusiasts.
"Soon all new Music will only be available on Blue-Ray
Audio", Nope- haven't heard that from Blue-Ray Audio
Enthusiasts. Ad Nauseum for every single Format out there
other than Computer Audio. Many claim that their particular
Format sounds better than others, but no-one has suggested
the total elimination of all other Formats for the sake of
their favorite. Apparently, Computer Audio is the ONLY
Format that requires the elimination of all other competing
Formats- to insure of its continued success in the
Marketplace. It is the only one whose Enthusiasts demand
(Under Threat of Impending Doom to other Formats) that
everyone switch over yesterday. Single Format, Manufacturer's lower Sound Quality, Manufacturer's boost
Profit, and what recourse would you have? Threaten to switch to another Format if they don't produce more High
Res. Downloads? They would never do this? They already have
with lower than CD Resolution MP3. This was a business
proposition they used to boost their Profits, yet you still
trust them with producing more High Res. Downloads. Again,
Common Sense Consumer Protectionism- VERIFY that larger
selection in High Res. Downloads is being produced. Crazy
me kicking tires, and checking the quality of a product
(Format) before I commit to purchasing it exclusively! You
are cynical towards me. I am cynical towards Mr.
production of lower than CD Res. MP3- especially if he is
promising me the Holy Grail of High Res. Download Selection. If I have nothing to take to the Bank yet- I am
not exclusively buying it. Crazy me to include a Backup
Format- I thought that is what Computer Audio Enthusiasts
did with Backup Hard Drives! I see, when I do it I must be
on Drugs. Just let all existing Audio Formats be. You
remember the Beatles Song, "Let It Be". When the quality,
and selection is there people will seriously concider
switching. If it doesn't happen, then no-one was serious
about producing High Res. Downloads after all. Now where
would that leave us without any alternative? I am not
paying any hard money for a whole lotta "Soon To Be"! I
would be "NUTS" to do so.
Off on this one again PO? Move on.

No one is replacing other formats.

We have just reached a point where more people have computers or computer based entertainment than the old methods of music playback. That's all. It's a natural progression.
I occasionally check this threat to see if Pettyofficer is still at it. He never disappoints. Entertaining as hell. He couls publish this as "ramblings of an paranoid audiophile" and make a killing.
I had moved on, Chadeffect. Someone else had ressurected
this Thread "Walking Dead" Style. You would know this if
you had kept up with the Thread. I still don't get your
Orwellian "Doubletalk", or "Doublespeak" within the same
breath. You say no-one is threatening to eliminate
competing Formats. Then you say (In the same breath) that
it is just that most people own Computers, and that it is
just a natural selection. You are making me dizzy with your
hopping from one foot to the next. Would most of these
people, who own Computers, be listening to mostly lower
than CD Resolution MP3? I hear that there is alot of Profit
in that. Invest your time, and money in that if your Sound
Quality takes a back seat to someone elses Profit! They might even thank-you for it. One can always hope. Just
don't expect strictly Profit motivated Computer Audio Manufacturers to suddenly turn away from lower than CD Res. MP3 Profitability, and risk Margin in boosting
costly High Res. Download Selection. It is not that they
could produce High Res. more inexpensively, it is just that
Profit Margin on larger Low Res. MP3 market will always be
many times greater. Even if I were them I would have to ask: "Why in the World am I even wasting so much of my
resources on High Res. Downloads with a tiny Market? Now
low Res. MP3- LOOK AT ALL OF THAT CHEDDAR!!! Just got to
get over that hump of percieved lower Sound Quality. Just
gotta delude everyone to get onboard with false promises
of a soon to be gravy train of High Res. Selection (SACD 2.0)". Congradulations, you have just become the 21st Century version of "Pavlov's Dogs". They ring a bell, you will drool, and you will pay anything to be fed. You wont even mind the low quality taste of the dirt you are being fed, after all it is the most convenient thing for you to feed on- especially if it is the only thing available for you to feed on! You wont even remember what High Res., or High Quality anything is anymore. Some of us just don't want to go there with our Music, because we are just "PARANOID" of sound quality becoming THAT irrelevant! We are funny that way. You want exclusionary Format
Authority over everyone? You have to earn it with a large
enough selection in High Res./ High Quality. "Soon all
new Music will only be available as lower than CD Resolution MP3 Downloads"- Ooops! Where did we go wrong
Mr. "WESTWORLD"? Me thinks that you will never be ready to
take over the Audio Market with this level of incompetence.
Try not tying your shoelaces (Logic and Reason) together
in a knot. Try following the "MONEY" to determine someones
intent, and motivation for a change, KAA-CHING!!!
Oh dear PO,

Double speak? Keeping up with this thread? Let's start again.

Double speak: surely we have done the conversation about format. You can listen to any "format" you wish. You will always have them. Computer audio can be any resolution you want. If sound quality is less important than the number of tracks you store, then you have compressed files. If sound quality is important to you, then you can use lossless or non compressed files. These files will be at least CD quality.

No one is forcing you to do anything. There is just a change in the way music is being used, which is much more flexible. If you want CDs you can order them. The question is why bother? They are made from a file anyway.

Keeping up with this thread: since it seems that this thread is either you saying the same thing, or everyone else saying the opposite, I don't feel it's too much of a challenge to keep up. But then again maybe I've been brain washed by various computer manufactures to see one side of the argument? I shall reboot & update myself and check. Please meditate on the fact you can have any format you wish. But most have adopted the next format along. That's all.

So if most have opted for downloads/files as opposed to a physical disk then it's likely they will be better served as they are in the majority & easier to serve. If you want to stay with old school formats it will mean it will be more of a cottage industry. But still available! You choose.
I don't call lowering sound quality down to less than CD
Resolution MP3 as being "Flexible"! I see a historical
trend of dumming down sound quality from Vinyl to CD, and
then from CD to lower Resolution MP3. What will be the
lower resolution Computer Audio of tomorrow, and will it
squeeze out any chance for High Res. anything? This is
flexibility? Eight Track, and Cassettes were flexible-
I don't see them around anymore. Keep the trend of lowering
resolution going, and pretty soon these ancient Formats
would sound better. How about if we cut the resolution of
low res. MP3 in half to really boost flexibility. Keep
cutting it in half again, and again doubling our flexibility everytime. What is your point? Put square tires
on your car to increase flexibility in choice of tires?
There was a time when the idea of a New Format meant an
increase in Sound Quality, not the flexibility of worse
Sound Quality. Where is the flexibility in Music Selection
for High Resolution Downloads? All that I see is a
Computer Audio Format that is 10% High Res. Downloads, and
90%- CD Res. or Lower than CD Res. MP3. Where is the
flexibility in High Res./ High Sound Quality in that?
Don't try to sell me that it is just around the corner, or
"Soon To Be". You might as well be trying to sell me SACD
again. Show me the High Res. Selection first BEFORE we
start eliminating any Formats. You can keep the rest of
that low Res. MP3 Computer crap! Flexibility my butt! I
don't buy "Lemmons", or "Money Pits" for the sake of
flexibility. Do you purposely shop for rotten vegetables
at the local market, lower quality for the sake of
flexibility- I THINK NOT! You would have me special order
my rotten vegetables through the mail- ain't that special.
You can still buy the freshest vegetables at the local
market, unless the demand for rotten vegetables is so high
that rotten vegetables is the only thing that they stock on the shelf. The stench would be horrendous, you know that- who are you trying to kid? That is what really stinks about this whole Computer Audio Downloading Format-
the idea that lower than CD Res. isn't just acceptable, it
is encouraged by you as a "Flexible" alternative. Cans and
String are cheap/ flexible too! What is your point? "Soon
all new music will only be available via cans and string"?
Euuuwww- I am blown away by the flexibility here. You want
flexibility try Yoga. You want low res. flexibility, try
Yoga in Sewage Treatment Plant. Shoot me for trying to
aspire to non-flexible higher Sound Quality. I am just "Nuts", "Paranoid", and "On Drugs"! Raw Sewage,
Rotten Vegetable, Low Resolution Audio Formats just don't
appeal to me. Shove it down my throat, you go ahead and try!
Realistically everyone is using 16/44.1 or higher. I really don't think ANYONE is using MP3 for their main listening....why do you keep bringing MP3 into the conversaton. same ole lame arguments, can you say anything productive?
These arguments are just plain stupid.
Please just use your 8 track tapes or what ever you do and leave us computer guys alone. Man this is tiresome.
PO I have no idea what you are talking about? You download at CD quality or whichever is the highest quality available. Surely you understand that?

Now if you want to take your music with you in the car or whatever, as you import your library or favourite play list to another limited memory device I.e a phone or iPad etc. you can do the transfer at a lower bandwidth than your main library to save space while leaving your proper Hifi library as is.(full bandwidth non compressed)

Therefore you can fit more music on your portable device to enjoy when out. This is the flexibility. That format could be mp3 as it doesn't need to be full bandwidth for the car or phone or whatever(unless you want to) & the file will be read by anything. But your main library for your system WILL be at full bandwidth and waiting for you when you get home. Is this difficult to understand?

No one is talking about lowering down sound quality. You have a choice.

You just copy for flexibility on the move and compress if you wish. Sewage? What are you on about?

Pristine audio is what I'm on about with the possibility to take it anywhere. 21st century lifestyle.
Listen, I am onto Manufacturers selling us SACD selection-
then leaving us holding the bag. I am onto Manufacturers
selling us 16 Bit/ 44.1 CD- then leave us holding the bag
with 12-14 Bit CDs. I am onto Manufacturers selling us
DVD-Audio/MLP selection- then leaving us holding the bag on
that one. I am old, and cynical from my experience with
New Formats. If you don't hold Manufacturers feet to the fire of actually delivering larger selection of High Res.
Downloads- it will never happen. There is just too much
Profit temptation to offer the Public a cheaper lower Res.
Format via Computer Downloading. If that happens, and
lower Res. becomes "Soon all new Music will only be
available via low Res. Downloads", we do not have an
alternative in a single Format Market. Low Res. will be
the Manufacturers version of "This is not Burger King,
you take it our way or you don't get the S.O.B.". If the
Public clamors for cheaper low Res. Downloads in a single
Format Market, you no longer have any leverage to demand
any High Res. anything. I don't think that this Market
Strategy escapes these Manufacturers. They will be able to charge anything they want for low Res., and you will pay
for it dearly without any alternative. High Res. Downloading Market Share today is just a blip on the
Radar Screen. It can easily disappear permanently- like
SACD, like DVD-Audio. It is at the same stage with low
selection. Crazy me trying to preserve High Res. the third
time around by demanding a higher standard/ higher selection for Computer Audio Downloads. Eliminating other
alternatives without larger slection of High Res. Downloads
available- is the quickest way of pulling out the rug from
anything High Res. Monopoly will dictate our future of
lower sound quality. Sorry that everyone can't see it.
You can't possibly be oblivious to what happened to SACD, DVD-Audio. History WILL repeat itself if you are not careful with Computer Audio. Do what you will. This is my
final word on this. This Zombie isn't going to be Ressurected for a second time- Hell is just going to have to let me in, crowded or not! I still enjoy High Res.
Downloads, even if they do have a life span of SACD/DVD-Audio. It would be a damn shame, and a third strike for
High Res. I would be careful at what I was swinging at!