So Hard to Decide on an Amp

"...russ69 and lewm: I'll bet that the Crown XLS-1502/2502 "pro" amps sound as good as any four-figures "audiophile" amps!..."

 Audio Science Review says:  "Ideally, you would use more finessed amplifiers above bass frequencies and use the XLS 2502 to drive the subs." 

Then there's the fan...That would be a no for me, dawg. 

Proof that I am indeed a troglodyte.

I’d like to know more about the Crown amplifier, because it has been decades since I have heard or read about any new products under the Crown imprimatur. For example, are they class D amplifiers? Some people just categorically dislike class D amplifiers. I am not necessarily one of them, because I have not heard enough different ones to develop a general opinion. The same question might apply with regard to the Benchmark amplifiers.

I often see the Benchmark included in discussions of class D amplifiers. Is that because it’s lightweight and uses a switching power supply? It’s a class AB-H amplifier. It exhibits none of the high frequency distortion of the antiquated class D amps and less distortion than the cleanest class A amps. With possible exception of the Purifi Eigentakt, it’s really in a class of its own when it comes to objective performance. It’s the closest one can get to a “straight wire with gain.” Practically speaking, it’s only limited by the quality of the sources and/or preamplifier, and its maximum power output. 

jay73, I did expand upon speakermaster's cryptic comment about impedance.  See my post at 1:15 PM today, 05-08.  If you have further questions, I will be happy to respond.

@chorus,

Thanks for your reply.

I have been looking for used XA25's but nothing close to $3K so far.

What Pre-Amp did you use with the XA25?

Compared to your existing setup, do you feel the Int25 is a big step up?

My understanding is that the amp in the INT25 is the same as XA25.

I had the XA25 and loved it. Traded up to INT 25.  Buy a used XA25
with warranty remaining for about $3k. If you hate it they resell in minutes. Reno Hifi used to have demo and used stock but with no
new gear that used supply may be gone too.

Heard great things about Coda too. 

Does ML have any suggestions?

@speakermaster,

Could you expand on that, regarding the impedance mismatching?

@redwoodaudio, I use a Isotek EVO3 Sirius but that is more a Power Bar vs a line cleaner at least according Isotek.

@anotherbob, Good Catch! I didn't even realize I mistyped that.

@athrillofhope - Thanks for that feedback, I will need to check them out.

Thanks for all the feedback!

I’d like to know more about the Crown amplifier, because it has been decades since I have heard or read about any new products under the Crown imprimatur. For example, are they class D amplifiers? Some people just categorically dislike class D amplifiers. I am not necessarily one of them, because I have not heard enough different ones to develop a general opinion. The same question might apply with regard to the Benchmark amplifiers. 
As regards matching preamplifiers with amplifiers, it is really very simple, and it’s easy to avoid a mismatch. You need to know the output impedance of the preamplifier and the input impedance of the amplifier. The input impedance of the amplifier should be at least 10 times the value of the output impedance of the preamplifier, in ohms. If that is the case, then the match is usually bulletproof. Typically, tube preamplifiers will have a higher output impedance than solid-state preamplifiers. Likewise, a solid-state amplifier will tend to have a lower input impedance than a tube amplifier. Consequently, mismatch problems typically arise if you try to mate a tube preamplifier with a solid-state amplifier. But this is not to say that all such matches are verboten. In the modern era, most of those matches will work, too.

I have a pair of Benchmark AHB2’s as mono blocks and it was the best audio decision I’ve ever made. I had a PS Audio amp prior and when I connected the Benchmark amps, I was startled by the improvement in sound quality, dynamics and resolution. Get the Benchmark...

That Vincent amp is very good if not excellent for the money. If I were you, I’d dive in fir an audition of something. Specs and marketing only tell a small piece of a product’s story. 
I’m sorry I wish I was familiar with those speakers because I’ve heard a bunch of amps and could probably recommend some thing.

Vincent sv500 was my first amp.  When I plugged it into a decent Furman power conditioner, it sounded so much cleaner.  Maybe worth a try over whole new amp upgrade.

@jasonbourne....*G*

Well, maybe.....perhaps, less....'finicky'...;)

russ69 and lewm: I'll bet that the Crown XLS-1502/2502 "pro" amps sound as good as any four-figures "audiophile" amps! 

...and perhaps just a weird troll tonight...:)

OP, pick your flavor.  It'll either work out of the box for you, or trigger further 'refinement(s).

Enjoy, J 👍

"...."Pro amps" meant for sound reinforcement systems. Quality home audio, they are not."

*sigh* A life spent going to concerts and live performances to be told I was enjoying cr*p..... :(

Thanks for that....I guess some of the ’pro audio’ stuff I apply is tasteless trash, although to my deluded ears and mind it seems to work rather well.
Esp. with the ridiculous collection of speakers that please me with their ’reinforcement’ in my space....well, spaces, but that’s another rant for another forum on another day...

All the posts that conclude with "...listen to what pleases your ears, your mind..." were also conclusions of the un’woke’.....

Delusions of Illusions....

I’m surprised MC hasn’t weighed in on this thread yet.....perhaps he’s enjoying his particular collection of delusion illusion devices. ;)

All the posts about all the ’differences’ between amps, pre-amps, DACs’, speakers, cables....how they ’synergize’ differently...

Note I’ve avoided including turntables, carts, A, A/B, D, CD, streaming, streamcasters....

Or....Analog or Digital.

Or...where you have and what it may or may not have effecting what you’re listen to.....

I guess that one ’philes near-Nirvana is another’s’ Hades, even if undetected as such....*big sigh*

I guess I’ll just have to go on listening to it...deluded by my illusions. ;)

@socalml528...Lotus. You’re welcome.

I’ll take a Toyota engine with just a ’tweaked’ chip over one that has spark plugs that can make one gasp at the $ required to make it run proper.

...but I’m just....delusional....*smirk*

+1 @speakermasterI think you should get a preamp also. Or an integrated. Those exists in prices up to $30k or so.

And I think you should ask this question in the amp section. You will probably get a lot of answers.

I like the Schiit Ragnarok. If your speakers aren't very inefficient this may be a great upgrade for you. Or get two Vidar and a Freya+.

"Porsche; there is no substitute"

Same could be said for McIntosh...

Best value for a true high end amp,preamp  Coda #8 amplifier, 07 preamp.
go to stereo times  see the Excellent review on their excellent CSIB integrated amplifier melds true separates into one seamless system.

If you go with an amp you need to go with a preamp also because you may have some strange impedance mismatches that might not sound too good.

"Technically they are all fine performers, and I don't think you should bother with specs anymore. Go listen." -E.Squires

This. 

It’s BASS not BASE!

I recently demoed the Pass Labs X250.8 stereo amp from a small local Pass dealer here in Southern CA:  Katli Audio in Chino Hills.

My wife and I loved it and are now setting up a trial period with the X600.8 monos. Fred from Katli is knowledgeable and a straight shooter. He does not have a wide spectrum of Pass gear, being a smaller outfit, but he has a Class A and Class AB stereo and monos to give you an idea if you wish to proceed up the Pass Labs food chain.

There is also Reno HiFi that sells exclusively Pass Labs that also allows in-home demos, but you have to also outright pay for the equipment and you also have 30 days to return it. Reno HiFi is not taking anymore new customers until Thanksgiving, however. 

Pass Labs makes extraordinary amps, no doubt. That said, in order to benefit from the full spectrum of Pass Labs power and ingenuity, you really need to have the purchasing power to stick with their higher end gear. I'm not too familiar with your speakers, but what I can tell you is that adding subwoofers can dramatically spacial presentation and timing. I agree that you would serve yourself to do a scorched earth search through research and if possible, auditioning. FYI I purchased a pair of new Focal 1008 BE's for half price ($3k) and a Hegel H90 ($2k). I did not audition them. I just "knew" from my extensive study and auditioning other brands, everything from Dynaudio Special to Devore Gibbons and Line Magnetic to Naim that this pairing would work well. Indeed, the warmth of the Hegel balances the astonishing highs of the Beryllium tweeter while the Sound Engine 2 drives the bass to jaw dropping levels for a "bookshelf" speaker.  At the end of the day, have fun, and just a friendly reminder,  it's okay to go a little nuts with this "hobby". ✌🏽🎼

One word. MCINTOSH. I've hady MA 6100 in continuous operation since 1977, and it's never been serviced. It handles high resolution music with ease. I've been offered double what I paid for it, but I'll never sell it. 

@helomech and @yyzsantabarbara 

Thanks for your feedback.

I just recently came across the Benchmark Amp and have seen only positive reviews and comments.

Small on stature but big on sound is the impression that I am getting from it.

@helomech This comment on the AHB2 and preamp is spot on. I tried the AHB2 with my RAAL SRIa headphones and it was too fatiguing with the Benchmark HPA4 preamp (which is great). 

When I put in the CODA 07x preamp with another Class D amp for the RAAL SR1a it sounded very good but there was a tiny bit of harshness. Based on my years with the AHB2 I thought the AHB2 would work with the CODA 07x because it really does not add much to the signal. I thought this even though the AHB2 sounded bad with a whole bunch of other combos I tried for the SR1a.

It turned out that the AHB2 + CODA 07x and RAAL SR1a is an excellent combo. No fatigue at all and all I am hearing is the preamp + DAC.

I owned the Parasound A23 at the same time as the AHB2 and the AHB2 was so much better on my KEF LS50's. 

Russ, That's what I would have guessed ("Quality home audio, they are not."), and that was my point.  Thanks.

I have the AHB2 and find it’s sound quality is heavily dictated by the preamp it’s paired with. If you like the overall character of your Vincent integrated, the AHB2 could be a worthwhile upgrade path. If you have power hungry speakers, the Parasound may be the better choice. The Benchmark is no slouch in terms of bass control, however, and seems to dig deeper than the Halo Integrated I once owned. It’s probably the best amp I’ve owned regarding bass dynamics. I currently pair it with an Allnic L1500 preamp and the dynamics with this combo are stunning.

"...what is a Crown amplifier these days?..."

These are "Pro amps" meant for sound reinforcement systems. Quality home audio, they are not. 

Peter Walker notwithstanding, what is a Crown amplifier these days?

"...All competently designed amps of sufficient wattage and current, low noise and distortion, with low output impedance will sound like same..."

Julian Hirsch Lives! 

All competently designed amps of sufficient wattage and current, low noise and distortion, with low output impedance will sound like same - Peter Walker of Quad fame.

Funny thing- there were no such amps around when Peter made this comment.

<rant>
Why? Any amp employing feedback back in those days simply did not have enough (and gave feedback a bad reputation that has lasted to this day). Not only did they not have enough, at the time is wasn't even apply the amount of feedback needed, else the amp would oscillate. So most companies didn't do it, knowing full well there was a problem.


This gave solid state amps a reputation for being harsh and bright because that is the result of insufficient feedback. Quite literally that is why tubes are still around. I'd hardly call that 'competent' since feedback is all about control theory which has been well understood for a long time.

</rant>

Given the complex and low-ish impedance curve of the M-L speakers, I first of all think you would be best off with solid state amplification, even though I personally use only OTL tube amplifiers to drive ESLs. Among SS amplifier designers, I think Nelson Pass is the most brilliant and innovative.  This predisposes me to suggest a Pass amplifier first of all.  Ayre is also a great brand with excellent, intelligent design.  Both of these companies make amplifiers that can optionally be driven in balanced mode, which is another plus.  I don't know what your budget is, and you really should state it, but otherwise you cannot go wrong with Pass or Ayre.

OP, to add on to what others have said -- I want to second the idea that a sub might be a good idea. I auditioned the ML Motion 60s and their bass was fantastic, but the Motions could probably use a sub. You might reach out to Martin Logan for their opinion.

The other thing I would mention is that doing analysis on my room's EQ taught me what was missing and what was too loud; speaker and listening positioning helped a lot of that and brought sounds which were missing into existence without any change of gear. Beyond that, I bought some room treatments and now have a very balanced and full room. It stopped cold what could have been an endless chase for more gear.

To put it briefly, if you don't know how well your room is set up, you just cannot know what gear will be best to invest in.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Much to think about here.

The toughest part is to try to audition the pieces that I am interested in, especially the Pass Labs.

The Benchmark and Parasound I could buy and return if I don't like it.

I might be able to demo the Mystere through a local dealer but I am not aware of anyone around in Socal that demo's Passlabs.

Thanks

@erik_squires  ,  @audiotroy  , etc.

Are there some basic specs , between an amp. and speakers , 
that should be considered , for a very good matching ?Or a listening session is the only way to go .

I am thinking about a new integrated amp. but it is not possible , in Canada to listen to it.

Don’t let the brand fool you. Pass is it’s own sound and better with some speakers than others. You 100% need to audition it and see if it’s the right sound for you, and completely ignore the reviews.

I’ve owned Parasound in the past and while I like it, there are brands I like a lot more.

If you are auditioning in the Pass price point, I strongly recommend you also listen to Ayre and Luxman with your speakers.

I’m completely sure you’ll come out of the auditions with very strong preferences for yourself.  Technically they are all fine performers, and I don't think you should bother with specs anymore. Go listen.

Jason very wrong amplifiers do sound different

We were Vincent dealers for years

Good sounding tremendous bass drive a tad grainy

We would show the client a unison research primo as a step up also a hybrid much bigger soundstage and less top end glare you could easily hear the difference 

Jay. The Martin Logan Motion 40 has crossovers at 500 and 2600.
Little woofers struggle to make deep bass. They have to make long excursions causing distortion at all other frequencies. Middle C is 256 Hz so those woofers are carrying a large chunk of the midrange, over an octave. Instead of another amp I think you would make a more significant improvement if you get two subwoofers. They will add the missing deep bass and if you use a full 2 way crossover on them they will relieve thos little woofers from those long excursions cleaning up your midrange significantly. 

Otherwise you can not go wrong with The Parasound A21+

The warnings here about synergy are very valid. I’m presently trying out a Van Alstine SET 400. It is well made with a lot of power. There’s a 30 day trial for his amps; you might consider a SET 120 for those speakers.

I like buying from small makers, directly, with good reputations (Salk, Quicksilver, MHDT). No question the Pass is a great amp, but the price is high, you’re paying for the name (a bit), and synergy is still a question. My two cents.

You could end up with worse sound you know.  You really need to have clear objectives and if you are not unhappy with your integrated--keep it. "More detail" can come at a price--hard, clinical sound if you are not careful.  I once did exactly what you are suggesting and was not at all impressed.  In fact I preferred the sound of the much less expensive integrated by a wide margin.

It is hard. I'm feeling great relief having ended the search/decision stage and placing an order 2 days ago.

SACD broke, you are fixing it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If you can, buy where you can try, keep or return.

Here is more info:

Speakers are Martin Logan Motion 40.
Sources are pretty much everything: Vinyl, CD/SACD, DSD, Qobuz, Cassette
Room is about 20x15 with High Cathedral Style Ceilings

No issue with my current Integrated.

I am just wondering if a better amp would bring out more detail in the music. I don’t necessarily listen at high volumes, in fact, many times I listen at low to moderate levels, once in a while I might crank it up a little.

By the way, I just realized I probably should have posted this under Amp Section.

@jay73 what is the issue with the amp section of your integrated. What improvement are you seeking?

The amps you have listed have really different sonic signatures.

without knowing your room and system (speakers and source) and your musical preferences, it is scattershot to provide you with any real recommendations

referring to reviews are fine, but shaping a system that really works well and suits your tastes is altogether a different matter

So many options. If possible, try many.