Speaker Break In...? Or listener “Break In”?

Break-in? The more I listen to a speaker the worse it sounds. 

I can't make that first link work for some reason. You can copy and paste it. Interesting read:  gr-research.com/burnin.htm

Here is some more evidence supporting burn in.http://http//www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm and
http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm

Oh, I dunno about all that. Depends on HOW the speakers - or anything - are broken in. Some methods are without any doubt more effective than others. We’ve known that for a very long time. I’m referring to burn-in tracks on Test CDs continuously as opposed to just playing music a few hours a day. The argument can be made the speakers will never completely break in without heroic efforts. 🏋🏻‍♂️

@b_limo

Im interested in opinions regarding which has more impact; a speaker changing sound over the first 100-200 hours or a listener becoming more in tune with a certain speakers qualities and characteristics.

Since we all hear what we hear, I'm not sure that there is an answer that everyone will accept....but a somewhat "inexpensive" test might be to buy a pair of Dirty Weekends from Zu which according to their website... Omen DW loudspeakers now get 100 hours of fully assembled, max-level burn-in so they will sound great right out of the box. 

In theory, given the Zu burn in of the loudspeaker, the buyer should notice almost no change in sound from original set up...and if they are noticing a change, then it must be them, the listener more than the speaker.

Also, according to Zu, the Soul Supreme gets 600 hours....so this, in theory, would eliminate any chance of speaker burn in.

Granted, all of the above may only apply to Zu and not to other loudspeakers...but it would be interesting to hear from Zu owners as to their experience.

As I’ve been reporting on another thread, burn-in of new HIFIMAN RE-600S V2 earphones is progressing nicely. Right out of the box they sounded terrible - tinny, distorted, no bass, and wimpy. 1 out of 10. And there was very little change the first 200 hours, using Kraftwerk, B-52s and Beastie Boys CDs for the first 150 hours, continuous play, then the burn-in track on the XLO Test CD for the next 100 hours or so. At the 250 hour mark the sound is finally much more musical, the distortion is gone and there is some bass, which I have my fingers crossed 🤞 will get better. Why these earphones should take so long to burn in is a mystery. Is it the single crystal copper conductors in the new cable? Who knows?

I really do wish that there WASN'T break in for speakers. No doubt, some more than others, have a distinct amount of change. Yes, I do try to 'adjust' my hearing or impression at first, just so I can listen to some music, but if a driver has a midrange sibilance to it for example, it will be impossible for me to listen at all. One set of Audio Nirvana speakers sounded so bad for the first 4 hours, maybe more, that I wanted to send them back. By the end of the first day(in my shop, playing louder and louder) there was a very noticable change. Some things are not so easy to believe until you have heard them happen more than once.

This just in!

Taken from the XLO Test CD information regarding track 9, the system burn-in tack,

”Most loudspeakers require SUBSTANTIAL burn-in time (as much as 200 hours) before achieving full performance.”

Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “But they’re selling a burn-in CD! Hel-loo!” 😬

@unreceivedogma- Changes in temp and humidity, are also mentioned in some of the above studies, as affecting TS parameters. Then too; sound propagates somewhat differently, with those changes. The disparity of aural acuity, between individuals(not to mention training/experience/perception and maybe: simply denial), is why(I’m certain), some don’t/can’t/refuse to hear the changes made by fuses, cables and speaker break-in. I don’t believe EVERY system, goes through(or- can resolve) changes that ARE audible/obvious. Some, no doubt, simply want to enjoy their music and not be bothered with listening that intently. Some of us have engaged these issues professionally. So many variables!

It is both. 

I also think that an explanation for the range of opinions on speakers in part is that everyone hears slightly differently. 

I’ve also noticed that my speakers can sometimes sound differently depending on the temperature and humidity. Has anyone else noticed this? Could it be that the magnet is picking up a charge from the moisture in the air? 

".....you could argue there is a difference, but it’s negligible, most certainly unnoticeable in the real world." Yet, you’ll debate the directionality of fuses/wire, as being audible, which differences are infinitesimally small. Give me a break!

That’s actually a very unconvincing argument. To whit,

”

Notice from the graph below, that the 2 curves are ever so slightly offset. You could argue there is a difference, but it’s negligible, most certainly unnoticeable in the real world. However, if you measure the TS parameters before and after break-in, and you get different Fs / Qts numbers, you probably got a faulty driver. This is another reason why you should break-in a speaker. Starting out your project with a damaged speaker is a recipe for failure. Even if you don’t measure the parameters before break-in, making the speaker play at  high excursions for 12 hours will almost certainly reveal flaws in the suspension, or voice coil defects.”

Regarding Thiele-Small Parameters, which ARE measurements, and DO change with break-in: http://audiojudgement.com/measuring-thiele-small-parameters-part1/ As I stated earlier, "That’s just simple mechanics." "There are also mechanical changes which occur in the moving components during use. In this case, however, most of the changes seem to occur early in the life of the driver, and are almost certainly due to relaxation in flexing mechanical parts of the driver (e.g., surround, spider, etc.). SEVERAL STUDIES HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED documenting substantial changes in the T/S parameters over the first few hours of use, some parameters changing as much as 15%+ over these initial periods.", is how this article describes it, under, ’Lifetime Changes, in Driver Behavior’(toward the bottom of the page): http://usenclosure.com/TS%20and%20Company/Thiele_Small%20Life%20and%20Times.html

Gosh, do you think maybe the changes are inaudible because the people listening are hearing challenged? Or because they’re so busy making changes any changes that do occur are hidden in the noise? Hel-loo! Physically measured? By who? Nobody ever measures break in. You don’t even know what to measure. Give me a break!

I agree with everything prof1 said. These things have been physically measured. The changes that occur are quick and inaudible. It's listener break-in.

So annoying to hear categorical claims such as 'all do' or 'all don't.'  Does it not occur to the people making such claims that 'some may' and  'some may not?'  Like many claims of physical characteristics in audio, these should be amenable to physical measurements. I spent 5 years as the "human factors" postdoc in a department of electrical engineering and saw this being done all the time. Are there no real engineers in audio?

Notice I don't say measurements that people can detect any difference.  That type of measurement is much more difficult to carry out given the inherently noisy nature of human testing. 

Somenone says the sound improved after two hours I might believe. Someone says the sound improved after 400 hours I wouldn't. That's just sales talk.

Why do some driver manufacturers recommend a "burn in" period. Say, 20 hours continuous music a low level?  Varnish on the cone? 
My own experience in 30 years of working on professional broadcasting equipment, is that the ear adapts to accommodate different loudspeakers. 

About decade ago I acquired a thirty year old set of Klipschhorns from a good friend of mine.  Previously I'd been listening to a small set of Dynaudios, which I liked very much.  Upon first listening to the Khorns they sounded harsh to the point that my ears would cringe at certain passages of some of my favorite recordings.  However over time the harshness disappeared and I was able to appreciate the dynamics they were capable of.  Since the speakers were already well broken in, I attributed the change to my ears.  One day I decided to fire up the Dynaudios again, and now they sounded muffled compared to the Klipschs.  Same amp, wires, and music.  This doesn't mean  I don't believe that  some physical break in occurs, just that our minds can play tricks.  Many years ago a piano tuner advised me, "If you keep playing on an out of tuned piano, over time your ears will adjust to that out of tuneness so that when you play on a properly tuned piano, it will not sound right".

The only difference I can hear consistently, every time, is how my system sounds immediately after start-up and during the first twenty minutes or so. Definitely improves during that time. Have never been able to positively, consistently hear any improvement over hours of use with any gear except my cables and ICs. I also note the system sounds different at various times of the day or night and seems to sound its best on Saturday mornings before 10 AM. 
Not taking sides in this thread, just stating what I've heard over time.
As always, YMMV.
Remember, it's just a hobby, not brain surgery.
Keep it light, keep it fun, have fun, happy listening :)

It's listener break-in. I've done A/B comparisons on identical speaker models before, with one pair being new, out-of-the-box and the other pair being 1, 2 or more years old, with no discernible difference in sound. 

I dont think I've ever heard someone say that the speakers they bought used, do the same thing. In other words, their new-to-them used speakers sound quite different than the speakers they have been using, but they just get used to the sound after a few days/weeks. The speakers were used, so if there was "break-in" associated with them, it would have happened long ago. 

I don't hear a difference.  

I'm not sure which is more important but I attend a lot of live music events and have always found that the music quality as well as even speech intelligibility from sound systems, especially in many reverberant venues, improves in, say, the first 20 minutes of a concert.  I've attributed it to my "learning" the acoustics so that I can process the sound better.  A similar process may well happen with loudspeakers in a reverberant domestic room - after all most domestic listening rooms are quite reverberant unless heavily treated with sound absorption.  In fact, professional acousticians (like me) often refer to them as semi-reverberant rooms.  Most laymen are unaware of just how reverberant their and other's listening rooms are because they are so used to experiencing the reverberation, but it has to have an important effect on sound quality, if in  different ways and degree than that compared to a concert hall or auditorium.

If speaker break-in isn’t real then Pierre of Mapleshade berated the Gallo dude for nothing when he sent new Gallo Reference speakers to CES without breaking them in first like he promised. It was not a pretty sight, newbies. 🤭

Speaker drivers never change over time.  That's why they never need refoaming.

Sounds like fun! 🕺🏻🙄

There’s one in every crowd. We call b_limo an outlier in this case.

Will you be at rmaf this year geoff?  I’d love to meet up in person :-)

-As far as smelling speakers, I still experience it.  Not sure if its the voice coils heating up or what.  Maybe just the speaker blowing air past glue, wood, damping material inside the speaker through the port... 

-as far as fake audiophiles, their are plenty of people in this world who think they are an audiophiles running a $500 multi channel a/v receiver through a crappy pair of speakers

-and that stupid thread about rearranging / bending cables, i.e. 7 gauge power cords, does that change the sound at all, that thread should be right up your alley Geoff since you seem to be the yoda of audio gear

millercarbon, I’m happy b_limo has a fanboy. You will probably find this other subject started by the OP worthy of discussion,

“Can you smell your speakers when youre (sic) rockin out?”

And this one (no offense to you personally),

Fake Audiophiles

-In your opinion, what makes an Audiophile a true Audiophile?

-In your opinion, what do fake Audiophiles do that makes them fake?

And this one,

Do cables settle in?

I’m not quite sure what the term is, but if rearrange your rig and you bend your cables in different directions than they were in before, does it take awhile for them to relax and settle back in?

b_limo brings up a subject worthy of discussion

 a listener becoming more in tune with a certain speakers qualities and characteristics.

Only to have the conversation immediately trashed beyond recognition by the usual suspects.

I would say for shame but you have none.

No man left behind. Apparently there are some left behind. Oh, well, that’s kind of how it goes some time. Live and let die.

when I got my von Schweikerts, speaker break-in was real for me. When I first played them "out of the boxes" I was disappointed but expected them to need to be played a while. Took about 400 hours to really come into their own. lots of congestion and lack of detail originally, nothing like what I heard at the dealers

prof   I agree.  It's like a car salesman.  If they can get you inside the car and take it for a test drive, or let you take it home and drive it for a couple days, a sale is more probable.
I do think there may be a slight break in for speakers, but I also wonder how much we adapt to the new sound.  It would be interesting to compare a used pair of speakers with a brand new pair on the same system and see if you could tell the difference.

This, of course, is a varient to the power cord threads, where many people cannot hear differences. And if you read very carefully, the same " few " continue to show up, and imo, show ignorance in listening ability, and making claims, again, that for the rest of us, the majority, it is " all in our heads ". I simply ignore these folks now.

Conventional drivers have components made of materials that move, bend, and flex.  I can't see how anyone would not think that those materials would have a break-in period.  How long that period is, and how big an impact that makes in the grand scheme of things, is much more problematic.  But I tend to agree with the poster who said that if you don't like it when hearing it new, the chances are you won't love it once it's broken in.

TBC: There are a number of times when speaker makers have measured the break in of a woofer.

The annoyance for us is that driver manufacturers (not speaker makers) specify the drivers after being broken in, but we get them without, so when we measure them they don’t necessarily match up for a while.

YMMV, different drivers, suspensions, etc. will behave differently. Usually this has to do with the resonant frequency dropping after use. That’s a key component of cabinet design, which is why it can be really annoying.

Best,
E

Take a poll of manufacturers. Yeah, like that’s a way to get to the bottom of this. 😬 

Magnepan recognizes, that it’s speakers have a, "break-in period’(second page of their 20.7 manual, last paragraph): https://www.magnepan.com/pdfs/manual/MG-20.7.pdf One would think, a major manufacturer like Classe’ would know better: https://manualsdump.com/en/manuals/classe_audio-ca-m400/10994/8 Or Wells(under, Proper Care): http://www.wellsaudio.com/akasha-manual Hell, even Bass players are aware of the reality(under, "WE USED TO HAVE SOME SOUND FILES (HERE)" : https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information.htm Of course; your ears and opinions may vary, but- who cares?   If ignorance is bliss; some here must be experiencing Nirvana.

this should not be a question for anyone who has ever purchased new speakers and paid attention to them.  

@mijostyn- You began your post, mentioning pain and ended with, "fiction". Those two words bracket, what they so aptly describe.

There’s one in every crowd. We call that an outlier. 😬

There are painfully few audio components, devices, wires etc that improve performance with use. A single wire is not directional in any way.
Electrostatic speaker diaphragms are heated to shrink them tight and they do loosen up a little with use improving the bass. Magnetic planars might do the same but I have not measured them so I could not say. Regular dynamic speakers do not require any "break in" The single most unpredictable and unmeasurable variable in the process is the human brain. A device which is more variable in operation than the weather and whose explanations of natural phenomena are frequently comically ornate. The real process is not break in it is accommodation.
In the mean while you guys are wasting perfectly good electrons discussing fiction. 

Crossover parts need time to break in. Caps and resistors can take up to 300-400 hours to settle in. This is particularly true of the large value paper in oil/wax types that change sonically quite severely. Break in can also be like a roller coaster ride with things improving at first, going south for a time and then finally entering that final linear stage of constant improvement. 

As fate would have it all capacitors are directional since all wire is directional. So, simply reversing the direction of a capacitor should be obvious to the astute listener. But reversing the direction of all capacitors at the same time might not be audible since about 50% are in the wrong direction to begin with by chance, so you would wind up in the same 50-50 situation. Same thing goes for fuses.

rodman99999
“Psycho-acoustic studies indicate...” Sorry, not interested.