i have several friends & acquantance that i have met over the years that have owned the Harbeths and none of them uses the same amp.
To witt, here is a short list of amps that I know from different people and friends over the years that are being used with either the M30, SHL5 or C7es series:
1. mcintosh s/s amp
2. Cary 805s
3. Krell 400 int amp
4. classe int amp (even the older version)
5. plinius int & power amps
6. mccormack dna amps
7. Cayin tube int amps (el34s)
8. Accuphase Integrated amps (class A and Class a/b variants)
9. Bat VK 75
10. Luxman 505 int amp
11. Conrad Johnson MV60 & LPS70s
12. Naim Integrated amp
13. LFD Zero LE MKIII
14. Bryston can work but a bit tricky
15. jeff rowland Capri S & 102 power amp
16. Bel Canto Digital amps
17. Peachtree Audio Nova 80w hybrid amp
19. Sun Audio 300bs
20. Pass XA series
21. Ayre V5 power amp
Krell and harbeths can work together if you use a warm sounding cable like cardas or purist audio design.
In other words, they seem to work with just anything out there. Its a matter of preference.
As for me, the absolute best is the one that fits your sound. I love the Luxman int with them, but does not mean to say that the Classe power amp wouldn't work well with them. So, anything goes!!
I would suggest you visit the Harbeth User group as these guys there have different choices of amps they have used with the different Harbeths.
These are easy to please speakers folks!! |
Nolitan,
What are you currently using to power your harbeth's..... |
Hello Pdreher,
Yes , it does appear that the Harbeth is well reviewed. In situations like this and from experience, the Harbeth will be very sensitive to ancillary equipment for best sound.
regards, |
Weseixas - While the 40.1's would not appear to be easy to drive by looking at the efficiency rating (spec'ed @ 86db/1w/1m), they have a flat impedance curve, rated at 6 ohm nominal / 5 ohm minimum. Furthermore, the beauty of the Harbeth sound is that you don't need to crank up the volume to ear splitting levels (like I had to do with my Dynaudio C4's) to get them to sound their best.
Also, even though some at Stereophile had some critical things to say about the Harbeth 40.1's, they still gave it a class A rating.... also TAS gave it their Golden Ear award, so I think there's strong consensus that it's a highly acclaimed speaker, albeit not for everyone.
|
NO NO NO.Krell and Harbeths don't work together.I have Krell kav500i,connected several times to shl5.The sound was awful |
With a krell integrated amp, the Harbeths would work well with them. Either the M40.1 and SHL5s.
I cannot really stress it enough as I had gone thru my shares of speakers.
These harbeths have that natural timbre and musicality especially for string instruments, piano and other acoustical instruments. You wont be sorry.
PS: not related to any harbeth dealer or company just a happy harbeth users for many years. |
Hello Pdreher,
I would like to use this moment to apologize for my initial response but with no edit feature, alas...
What are you disputing, the sterophile article? I posted links to those who are so inclined and gave my opinion as asked by the OP.
The spendors are 84db/1w/m that is considered low efficiency, that in itself does not make it a bad speaker, but since the OP intends to drive the speaker with an Integrated Krell will he have enuff power for reasonable dynamics, seems that way if he does not exceed a nominal listening level of 84-86 db ...
Frankly and based on the OP's comments on the speakers he has already auditioned and discounted, tells me has already moved beyond the spendors.
Maggies 20.1/3.6 and the quad 989 are already ahead of the spendors, So i would suggest a re-listen to the quad's, try and do so with subs, a very different speaker with subs IMO, very formidable with subs...
regards,
|
Weseixas - my 40.1's are easily driven with a moderately powered tube amp (McIntosh MC275). Rather than criticizing others suggestions on a speaker you don't have legitimate knowledge on, why don't you come up with some recommendations for the OP. |
http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1008har/index4.html |
With all due respect to Pdreher and nolitan , I"m sure it will sounds good on classical to some as is the case with most speakers.
Regardless I still stand by my original statement of it being a poorly designed speaker for 12K and with an eff: rating of 84db/1w/1m you are going to need a sizable amplifier also.
regards , |
The Harbeth 40.1 is a pretty poorly designed speaker IMO and for 12K I would run not walk .....
Regards, |
I agree with Nolitan... my Harbeth 40.1's are exceptional with classical music. Full bodied, dynamic and natural sounding with no listener fatigue. |
Save some money and get either an Harbeth SHL5s or Monitor 40.1
These speakers are really really natural sounding for Classical music.
I have a friend who had Wilsons, Thiel, Rockport, Avalon speakers. But he said the other night that none of them can do classical music as naturally as the Harbeths speakers. He owns over 10,000 LPs and over 5000 CDs.
Spendors would be on that short list as well.
YMMV. |
Neal,
I don't know if you still have you 400xi, but if yes I would suggest a change. I used to own it and I found it analytical, neutral, but not very musical. Instruments lacked body, and the dynamic was poor. It was quite annoying.
I upgraded to a Plinius 9200 which is as transparent and neutral, but will give you back the life you may miss with the 400xi.
Hope this help.
Fabien |
Spendor SP100 2's. Don't take up a ton of room, can reproduce an orchestra no problem, sound like music, easy to drive....and wonderfully easy to listen to for hours on end.
The 20.1's are simply gorgeous and glorious also and I can not recommend them highly enough if you have the space and the horsepower required for them. They are amazing and an incredible bargain at their price. |
How about some Salk Soundscape 10 custom made for $10K. I have their previous flagship speaker the HT3 and they just make beautiful music. It is worth a look and you can pick the finish. Salk Sound dot com is their website and Jim Salk make some of the best speakers in the world, IMHO.
Good luck and take your time. |
MAGICO V2 $18000.00 be a sport!! |
|
I listen to Classical and Gospel only and what Avguy mentioned about the Avalons' are spot-on. I have the Ascendants and my listening position is 9' away and you get the feeling that you are part of the performance. I thought my Thiels and Vandersteens disappeared but the Avalons are truly magician.
|
I really love my Montana EPS2's for all types of classical music. The cello is rendered so well by the midranges.. |
Hi Knownothing, I have heard them at RMAF the last 2 years. I also own the predecessor Innersound Kaya's. The Sanders 10b sound very similar to my Kaya's. The electrostatic panel is the same only a little shorter and the woofers are newer improved units according to Roger Sanders.
These are great speakers. You can play them very loud without worry of damage and the bass is very deep as well. Also they are about as transparent a speaker as you will find.
What some people don't like about these speakers is their small sweet spot. The flat electrostatic panel cause the high frequencies to beam. Other companies such as Martin Logan and Soundlab curve their panels to compensate for that. Roger Sanders feels that is a compromise because curving the panels causes some distortion. Another advantage is less need for room treatments to control the reflections of the mid to high frequencies.
Now I know your going to ask how small is the sweet spot? It's not head in a vise small but two people can be in it if they are right next to each other.
Stereomojo reviewed the Sanders 10b awhile ago and Stereophile reviewed the Innersound Kaya as well if you want to read some reviews. |
Second-hand Avalon, period, if you want the huge soundstage and transparency that will make you feel you are in a live concert. But make sure you also have similar quality front end source, amp, and interconnect and speaker cables. Otherwise, you won't get enough resolution in your system or have enough power to drive them. |
Sanders 10b's look interesting, have you heard them? |
Sanders 10b if you like electrostats. Right in the middle of your price range new. They go down to the low twenties in Hz. Harry Pearson just gave them a Golden Ear award in the latest issue of TAS. |
Sound Lab
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/products.htm
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1276915010&/Soundlab-Ultimate-1--Valhalla-
Any of their full electrostatic models (new, or many used in good condition) would likely be great - especially if you are willing to get a new amp (preferrably with tubes) |
Its what you like that counts!! |
Hi, likely you will have acquired speakers by now, in that case just for information (and for the benefit of anyone doing a search for speakers/classical). I just returned from the Munich High End show where there were 2 rooms that "transcended" the rest of everything I heard in that they managed to present music as opposed to the others that showed gear performing music - some of which exceptionally good, in honesty. Those 2 rooms were Tidal and Brodmann. As you might have expected, Brodmann mainly played classical music (I also heard Rodrigo y Gabriela though, which was delightful) through their flagship speaker in the brand new "Joseph Brodmann" series, the JB 205. This was with Viola Labs amps and a comparatively humble Electrocompaniet EMC1 as source in a room that was certainly not the best acoustically. In one word: astounding! True, the JB 205 is a EUR 56k affair, but I'm pretty sure, the musical gene will be carried forward in the smaller JB models. Unfortunately, the English pages of their website don't seem to work, nevertheless, here's the link: http://www.brodmannacoustics.com/index_eng.htmlPS: based in Vienna (where else!) they also have s representation in Ferdinand, Indiana. PPS: this is also a manufacturer to have a serious look at for someone looking for uncompromising AV inwall solutions. |
Thanks Rpfef, Rcprince, Hjungmd, Knownothing, Nolitan, Jrmanders, Jult52, Karelfd, Rackon, Learsfool, Usblues and Ihcho. I surely will have to check the Shahinians, perhaps even make a trip to NY, along with the other recommendations (ProAc, Harbeth, ART, Totem, Brodmann (future?), Nola, may be horns, Merlin, Tyler etc.) @ Rcprince – I’ll email you @ Jult52 – sorry I didn’t have Strauss’ Salome, but Mahler’s Fifth too has a lot of detail and dynamics and like you said, many speakers are incapable of reproducing that @ Magnumpi205 (Donald) – the show was good, though many manufacturers didn’t participate this time. I have posted my experience in my other thread: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1253679708&openmine&zzNeal1502&4&5#Neal1502@ Ihcho – no I didn’t check out the Tylers, but there’s someone that lives in my city, so might be able to check it out there |
While you were at RMAF, did you check Tyler speakers?
Tyler D1 or D2 may serve your purpose at half the price you are to spend. |
Thinking it would do to audition if possible Merlins.They are made for classical as are most of the above also,good luck,Bob |
If you are a fan of large scale classical works, IMO nothing quite gets the job done as a good pair of horn speakers, and you can get some very good ones for quite a bit less than your stated budget. Nothing else will give you the timbral realism, the soundstage, the dynamic range (softs as well as louds) and the immediacy that horns do. I've never heard anything else yet that approaches the live event as closely, if that is your aim. |
I must also strongly recommend Shahinian speakers for classical.
Unless you really are a fan of big classical pieces I don't think you can truly appreciate the demands in dynamics, weight, scale etc. such large scale, complex music places on your system, especially your speakers. Macro and micro dynamics are incredibly important, along with other virtues outlined above. Soundstaging is key for a convincing presentation. You also need a more or less "full range" speaker to provide satisfying weight. You need a well balanced speaker with tonal accuracy. Whoever noted above that many modern speakers don't seem to get the lower mi-range right was spot on. Many other wise excellent speakers also seem very slightly tipped up in the treble to my ears.
In my personal experience, many modern designs with their emphasis on detail just are not up to a full symphony orchestra in full cry (the big stuff by Brahms, Mahler, Puccini, Strauss, Vaughn Williams et al).
While the OPs room is not large, it's perfectly big enough for many a full range speaker.
I never had anywhere near this kind of budget to spend. I had Alons for years, and I liked the Circes quite a bit (with Herron electronics) for classical. Shaninian Hawks or Diapasions give a similar free, unfettered and large scale presentation while doing justice to the "presence" and dynamics of classical music.
Another thing the open baffle design Alons (now Nola) have in common with Shahinians is that you don't have to sit with your head in a vise - they have quite large sweet spots, and while they do vocal and chamber exquisitely, they are much more realistic for orchestral than most other speakers. They are designed to do justice to big classical, and that they will do, without stinting other more intimate musics. (and if they're dynamic enough for Bartok Concerto For Orchestra, they're dynamic enough for the Rolling Stones.)
Rpfef delieates the Shahinnian sound well. They make you fell like you are sitting in a concert hall. The Nolas will do the audiophile imaging thing more if you like pin-point imaging for smaller ensembles. But honestly, after 20+ years in high end audio, I don't think that's my most important spekasr attribute - not when listebning to the Brahms Requiem (a test disk I always take on auditions).
I haven't heard the latest Nola models, but I would also check them out, as they're voiced with large scale classical music and have that dynamic, natural and open sound.
To my ears, the best speakers from Nola and Shahinian have many of the virtues of planars and stats to which they add excellent bass and dynamics. They're not quite as fast, but darned near, and they're both very open kinds of speakers.
I'd be wary of any speakers with treble peaks, or midrange dips, I don't care what the tweeters are made from. Fatal for classical. Given the nature of some recordings, it can truly make massed strings painful.
The big Soundlabs are a completely different kind of presentation from the above but are worth checking out - for me they may lack that last inch of weight and dynamics, but they are wonderful speakers, so transparent and immediate, as are the Maggie 20.1s. Again, planars and stats do have their unique charms. Maggies, as much as I love them (and I had a couple pairs for several years) do have a "sound" or very (VERY) faint grain structure that is omnipresent until you get of the to the 20.1s.
I've heard and liked big classical on Audio Physic Avanti IIIs, Vandersteens 5a's, the big Pro-Acs, and moving up in price JM Labs Utopias.
Don't be afraid of used.
Also, and I hate to tell you this, but your amps, preamp and front end are also very important in getting the best from your classical capable speakers and achieveing musical nirvana. But select the speakers FIRST, then match the amplification, cabling et al to your speakers.
You WILL want to upgrade that Krell integrated. But speakers first.
And take your time. |
Have to agree on Shahinian here. Given that Richard Shahinian spent probably half of his life in concert halls and actually conducted orchestras if I'm not mistaken, if these speakers can do one thing it's classical. Altough this is at least 6 years ago, I have heard impressive presentations with both Hawk and Diapason (with Croft and Jadis amps).
One that would have to leap to one's mind, if you can still find it: Bösendorfer, the VC7 may just fit into your budget. The bad news, when Yamaha took over Bösendorfer they decided against continuing the speakers production. The good news: mastermind Hans Deutsch is now building basically the same speakers with piano builders Joseph Brodmann Group (itself headed by former Bösendorfer people). So watch out for the Brodmann brand too! |
Neal,
How did the RMAF search go. Heard some very good speakers there. |
Surprised no one has mentioned the Totem Wind's, Jamo Reference R909 or Thiel CS3.7 in this thread. Somebody mentioned Dynaudio - probably have to go with the Confidence C4 to get impact Neal502 is looking for, and that lists for well over range he suggests. I am also a fan of Revel Ultima Salon 2 to get at impact and scale of classical, but again, these are slightly out of suggested price range. |
Neal - I'm finding this a fascinating thread. Please update it from time to time.
Like you, I'm a big classical music fan. I'd like to suggest a recording that I think will test any system: the Karajan recording of Salome with Hildegard Behrens. Dark, somewhat unusual sonics but with lots of detail and dynamic contrast. I think my system is decent but this HvK recording has been exposing its flaws mercilessly. I suggest you use one of the louder tracks as a test - any speaker that can do pretty well with it is one fine piece of equipment. |
Might want to track down some ART speakers from Scotland. Easy to drive and definitely not dull. Valve friendly also. |
Guys.. I didn't mean to suddenly drop off of the thread, was just having a terrible time with a new ISP. I am off to Denver today for the RMAF and would respond to you all on my return. I have auditioned Sonus Faber Cremona M in the mean time. I'd write about that as well as my experience at the RMAF.
cheers
Neal |
for $5,000 consider the harbeth shl5s. Those will not disappoint. |
Neal,
Magnumpi205 says:
"Invest in a plane ticket to Denver and go to the RMAF."
I heartily agree. |
I recently switch my speaker from B&W N802 to ProAc D38. Overall I am very impressed with sound stage and detail. Mine is still breaking in so I have a little bit of forced tweeter sound but it gets softer every day.
I think this one is very good for classical music and Jazz. |
I'd like to add this to my previous comment:
The reason I went to Shahinian Hawks in the first place (they replaced Alon Circes with a Thunderbolt sub and a factory supplied, custom designed x-over, not a bad system for classical) was that the Shahinians, in addition to displaying all the virtues I mentioned above, also "filled in" the enormous upper-bass/lower-midrange power and presence of live orchestral music which seems so often to be missing in reproduced music.
Admittedly, some hear this as "bloat" or excessive "warmth."
However, in a good hall, a full classical orchestra actually produces much more impactful physical power in just that area wherein which dwell the cellos, the trombones and horns, and much of what makes the violas and even the violins sound so rich and full.
The Hawks capture the force of this power without too much of a compromise in detail and clarity, for which I feel they also compensate with excellent timbral accuracy.
These remarks come from a listener who loves more than anything on earth, except life itself, the Western classical orchestra. Please consider that when trying to apply any of this to your decision. |
I will also add that the speakers I use (Sforzando JL-1s) are similar in their presentation to the Shahinians Rpfef is recommending (which I also think are excellent for classical music). I would have recommended my speaker brand earlier, except that it is not currently produced in any quantity. However, the person who makes them lives in Raleigh, and if you're interested in going there (you're not too far away, from your earlier post) he could probably demonstrate them to you. The large model he can demonstrate might be a little large for your room (mine work fine in an 18x20x10(h) room), but the designer who lives up here in NJ also makes smaller models that give up ultimate bass extension below 30Hz for a bit more speed in the mid and upper bass. The large version needs to be bi-amped (an added expense), and will at this point likely have no real resale value, but it might be useful to hear it if only because it can give you an idea of the Shahinian sound, and you might like it enough to buy it despite the lack of a name brand, dealer support network, etc. If you're interested, you can email me directly through the Audiogon email system. |
For classical orchestral and choral music, I would suggest you make a real effort to audition Shahinian Hawks or Diapasons. They are designed by their creator to model as closely as possible the sound of an orchestra playing in a concert hall. They provide an extremely convincing spacial and timbral recreation of that sound. In addition, they boast very dynamic, concussive bass, an enormous sound field, more sense of 3-d ambience than I have ever heard outside reality, and a string sound that is palpably rich, realistic, and velvety.
Very importantly, they will play very loud without strain or tonal variation. I can listen in my 2200 cubic foot room to Mahler's Eighth at close to actual live-concert-level volume (peaks of 108db) and the sound is as good, clean, undistorted, and easy on the ears as at 80 db. This takes a good amount of power and current though (I use 2 Plinius SA-100's).
The Shahinians are polydirectional above 250hz and use a transmission line woofer terminated with a passive radiator.
They do not do pintoipnt imaging. Of course, neither does the Berlin Philharmonic or Miles Davis. If you want razor sharp images, unlike the reality you hear live, these are definitely not for you.
There are no US distributors so these can be purchased only from the factory at about $12,000 for Hawks, $20,000 for Diapasons. A used pair of Hawks just sold for $3200 on Ebay.
If you listen primarily to large force classical music, or any acoustic music recorded well in a live space, Shahinian's top speakers (or even the Obelisk, at $6000) are very, very hard to beat. |
Thanks much Layman, 4musica44107, Classical1 and Cajunpepe. Really appreciate the suggestions. Now I have a big list of speakers that I need to check out.
@ Classical1 - I haven't tried the Quad and Spendor at home, rather at the dealers who had much better electronics than mine.
I'll post my experience as I go along. |
You can get a 10/10 new pair of JM Lab Alto Utopias here on Agon for $11k or $12k. they were running $23k last year before they were updated to the new line. Some are new from large volume dealers as they are getting rid of the old stock to place the new Utopia III line. This speaker does many things well and has a huge dynamic range. I drive mine with 500 watt monos and am not looking to replace any time soon(that is unless I get a fantastic deal on the next level up Nova Utopias!!).
Enjoy the hunt!
Pepe |
09-17-09: Macdadtexas said:
I think if you upgraded your amp first, and tried the Spendor or Maggie 3.6's again you would find them much different. Your integrated does not have the power to really open up either of those speakers."
---------------------------------------------------
I couldn't agree more! In your original post you were looking at speakers in the 5-7 K range Before you double or triple your original budget on speakers I'd consider what a better integrated or separates might do with the Spendors or Quads..
just my 2 cents, but it might save you a lot of money:)
|
Layman:
I have found the Devore Fidelity Silverbacks and the Verity Fidelio Encores to be excellent at their respective price points for classical music. I feel the Silverbacks are actually a little better than the FEs for large scale orchestral works, but overall I preferred and purchased the less expensive FEs.
And of course the Verity Sarastros are just incredible for large scale orchestral music but too large and expensive for me. My friend and dealer (Don Better of Don Better Audio) told me that when his Cleveland Orchestra friends come over to listen to classical music, they all prefer to listen to it on the Sarastros. And Don has a lot of great speakers to choose from. |
Forgot to mention that the Dynaudios (with the right amp) can be convincing. They have the ability to recreate realistic instrumental timbre but need the finest sources (the best digital or analog sources) to achieve this.
I prefer the newer models with trapezoidal cabinets to the older models with standard cabinets (which sound significantly boxier).
Dynaudio models cannot be bi-amped but I would almost be tempted to do this, as they typically use an 8-ohm tweeter and 4-ohm bass/mid unit. The tweeters sound delicate and refined connected to the 8-ohm taps of a tube amp but the bass-mid unit needs to be connected to the 4-ohm taps to sound balanced (damped and controlled). A very refined solid-state amp will also do the trick (without having to re-do the crossover). |
Avoid any speaker with a metal dome tweeter in it...in fact avoid metal drive units period...they ring and shriek and don't sound anything like real instruments.
The Spendors should be good prospects material-wise...I particularly like the sound of scanspeak tweeters (such as those used with some Spendor models) when it comes to accurate instrumental timbre with classical instruments...but based on what I have heard, they (SP 2/3 and SP 3/1P and SP 3/1R) don't quite do it...sounding too dull and too dynamically constrained to be convincing. They sound artificial and shut down and just lack the ability to recreate the drama and timbral qualities of real instruments.
Not to single out Spendor because I was not convinced by models from ATC (too dull and dynamically contrained), Magnepan (colored sounding...not realistic enough...had a tendency to shriek), Martin Logan (just missed the mark...a little synthetic sounding), and Gallo (good tweeter but midrange sounded weird and synthetic) either (just to name a few types that don't use metal drive units).
The Vienna Acoustics models sounded too sucked out in the presence band to convince with a range of instrumental timbres.
Truthfully, there are very few speakers that do classical well enough for me.
I like the sound of Phase Technology tweeters. They sound realistic and natural with classical instruments.
It's hard to get the power band i.e. lower mid-range right and modern speakers seem to mess this up really badly.
If you find a good speaker for classical music, I would like to know about it. |
