I seriously doubt if any of the high end Italian speaker manufacturers with ultra exotic furniture grade cabinets allocate 40% of the cost in the drivers. If I remember correctly the norm is more like 10-20% depending on the specific model and its price point within the model line.
Tekton Double Impact & Comb Filtering
Like many of you, I have been pondering purchasing these speakers but am very curious about the unusual tweeter array. I asked the smartest speaker person that I know (he is a student of Sean Olive) about the design and below is what he had to say.
"In theory it could work, but the driver spacing means that the crossover point would need to be very low.
He is using the SB acoustics tweeter which is 72mm in diameter, center to center on the outside opposing drivers is around 5.7 inches, which is about 2400Hz. This means that combing would stop between 1/4 to 1/2 of the wavelength (between 1200-600Hz) is where the outside tweeters should start playing nice with each other.
Since he is not using low enough crossover points he has created a comb filtering monster. Now while it's not the great point source that was promised, it's no worse than most line arrays and the combing will average itself out given enough listening distance.
The MTM spacing on the other hand is ridiculous. Hopefully he is cutting the top end off on one of those midrange drivers to avoid combing."
"In theory it could work, but the driver spacing means that the crossover point would need to be very low.
He is using the SB acoustics tweeter which is 72mm in diameter, center to center on the outside opposing drivers is around 5.7 inches, which is about 2400Hz. This means that combing would stop between 1/4 to 1/2 of the wavelength (between 1200-600Hz) is where the outside tweeters should start playing nice with each other.
Since he is not using low enough crossover points he has created a comb filtering monster. Now while it's not the great point source that was promised, it's no worse than most line arrays and the combing will average itself out given enough listening distance.
The MTM spacing on the other hand is ridiculous. Hopefully he is cutting the top end off on one of those midrange drivers to avoid combing."
362 responses Add your response
Hi Guys, I would like to help clear the air on comb filter effects and line arrays. The math that describes comb filters really comes from antenna theory and while speakers are acoustic antennas they don't behave the same as an antenna for radio waves. In Leo Beranek's Text book for MIT on acoustics, he talks about how the air molecules between the drivers if they are close together vibrate in sympathy with the drivers. The consequence of this is that there really isn't any comb filtering at least on a vertical or horizontal line array if the drivers are close enough together. The first time I heard the Pipe Dreams at CES I knew something about the comb filter idea for line arrays was not right. I have built 2 different line array speakers and never got any comb filtering on either pair. I didn't discover Beranek's book until after I built them but Beranek's explanation matches |
craigl59, Very nice analogy of basic driver costs that effects the bottom line that all speaker designers and manufacturers must factor in. Just for clarification for the other readers,I believe you told me that your room is very large and you enjoy large scale highly dynamic classical music and you listen at loud levels hence the spare drivers already purchased as backups just in case. Kenny. |
Kdude66: Yes, you are right about the large room and classical feeds with dynamic changes that could generate very disruptive bursts. As a classical musician, I sit in front of a large piano every day and once took the time to measure its decibel level. Loud passages are around 95 db at the keyboard side. But they do not sound as loud as 95 db of recorded music because there is no distortion/noise. As I know most of you recognize, the less noise in your system, the more you can listen to louder and louder feeds. AND, Kdude, everyone should read your second post at the start of this thread. It is the clearest explanation I have seen yet explaining Eric's minimum mass theory. Congrats! |
Missioncoonery, if I may make a friendly suggestion: When you begin a post by quoting from a post someone else made earlier in the thread, please provide some indication that the quote is a quote. Either by simply using quotation marks, "like this," or better yet ... ... like this, which can be done by highlighting/dragging through the text you are quoting in the box in which you are composing your response, and then clicking the button just above the box which contains a " symbol.Thanks. Regards, -- Al P.S: Thanks to Soundscience for the informative post. Makes sense to me! |
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It always seems like an unfortunate use of this or any other forum when the conversation deteriorates into personal criticisms of other posters. The DIs may be Great speakers to some and not so great to others, We are all going to form our opinions on whatever information we have available or whatever information, or lack thereof, that we choose. Isn't that something we should all expect - certainly the equipment manufacturers we all discuss expect that we will do this? Some people are going to choose vanilla and some are going to choose chocolate- so what? It is a pursuit that I believe we all seek to enjoy and our differences of opinion are, I think, both healthy and help to drive this industry. We can evaluate and follow, or refuse to follow, each other's opinion based on how reliable we think that opinion is - isn't that what we do with all other bodies of knowledge? |
The Tekton Brilliance was reviewed today. Same price as the DI. It's smaller and doesn't play as low, but the price is the same. Why have 2 floor standers at the same price? My guess is that the Brilliance is geared more towards 2 channel in a medium room and the DI is more geared towards larger rooms and home theater. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0817/Tekton_Design_Brilliance_Loudspeaker_Review.htm |
Interesting review. I was a bit taken back when the reviewer said that folks who like Harbeth, Audio Note, and Acoustic Vienna speakers would not find the Tekton Brilliance sound to their liking? I owned two of the three and loved them. Big fan of Harbeth in particular. I love how easy they are to listen to. Never aggressive or in your face. Always musical and composed. Audio Note speakers are also supremely musical. What is is the point by the reviewer here? The Tekton design is not those things? It is much more lively and too pumped up for us Harbeth lovers? He also started the review with a big question mark that he really never sorted out well for us. The speaker went from sounding broken to amazing with no changes, burn in.......no real explanation other than his ears got used to them I suppose. Then his friend really did not like the speakers from his initial listen and did not change his mind. Contemplating the review one could easily, and reasonably, conclude that these speakers can be polarizing due to their additional brilliance and lively personality. Wonder how true this is for the DI? Love to hear more comments on this. I least that that is how I read the review. |
"My guess is that the Brilliance is geared more towards 2 channel in a medium room and the DI is more geared towards larger rooms and home theater"... LIghten up Bullitt,Im just asking is this what were are now discussing of have been . I was under the impression these speakers were giant killers replacing 30K speakers |
Where in that quote do you come up with midfi? I use my DIs for HT & 2ch just as I used my B&W 804s for both HT and 2ch before the Tektons unseated them. I'm about to add Odyssey Candela pre and Kismet Reference power amp pieces to the same HT front end. The Candela allows a pass-through mode for HT applications. Best of both worlds. Using the Odyssey pieces in HT certainly doesn't make it midfi. |
grannyring, I read the review again just for clarification for me, Overall I found the review kinda spotty and not that easy to understand the reviewers overall thoughts.He has the spec wrong on the sensitivity,the brilliance is rated 94db at 2.83 volts at 1M and not 94db 1w at 1M. In my personal and experienced opinion the brilliance and the DI's are like comparing apples to oranges overall,I Offcourse have not had the chance to hear the brilliance speaker but I have heard the pendragon and wasn't that impressed.But as you know I truly love the sound I'm getting from my DI's. The reviewer had a non upgraded pair which could be a huge difference in sound when he spoke of etched treble response,a upgraded crossover would probably take care of that issue,the bottom line in his review is the ratings he gave at the bottom using a note rating system which shows each category doing well except the fit and finish category. The obvious difference that I see also is the single 8 inch woofer plays all the way up to 800hz and you are going to get a lot of voice at that frequency range and the woofer is so far away from the other drivers.This is a speaker you probably would want to sit 10ft or more away from to get the most coherent sound. Remember the Di woofers are crossed at 250 hz and very little voice is going to be in that frequency range,just a thought.I honestly would rather read a review on the Electron speaker and or the DI monitor speaker,that would be much closer to the DI's. Kenny. |
Kenny, I agree that the 800hz crossover point, along with the distance the woofer is away from the other drivers could be a bit of a problem. Maybe the low mounting of the 8" woofer was used to extend the lower frequency of that driver using the floor for some boundary reinforcement. The compromise, I would believe, be in the lower midrange. I couldn't imagine this speaker sounding anything like the DI's.....IMO Tim |
"I honestly would rather read a review on the Electron speaker and or the DI monitor speaker,that would be much closer to the DI's" I agree with you,lets see a review of these DIs in a stereo mag not some home theater with all the specs fleshed out.Since we cant hear them without buying them seems that would be the way to go.Could and guessing would make us "30k killer" non believers shut up and go buy them. |
Respectfully, this thread is pathetic. With over 30 years experience, 65 commercially available designs under my belt... the garnering of many 'product of the year' type loudspeaker awards... many years of compelling professional and amateur reviews and we're still seeing stuff like this pop up on occasion. How sad. Respectfully, do you really think I'd bring a product to market that contained the showstopping flaws you've accused me of?! It's so sad to see people attempting to trash a product they've never heard nor would ever own. Its irresponsible to trash something being spoken about in a positive light that you don't personally have your hands on. For the record: the DI loudspeaker is a gamechanger and it's here to stay folks! Do you want to hear every nuanced detail contained within your favorite tracks, or just some of it, and at the very best with some other brand simply most of it...?! If you want to hear it all that's what we do. This speaker is linear and accurate, this alone short-circuits the comb-filtering accusations. And yes, it knocks off some very expensive heavyweight loudspeaker models and I've got a pile of documentation that proves this too. Listen to the loudspeaker and judge for yourselves. And focus on this... the Tekton DI's have 4 patented design elements that have never before been applied to a loudspeaker and they sound amazing! Eric Alexander - audio designer |
Eric, "For the record: the DI loudspeaker is a gamechanger and it's here to stay folks! " That's right and only getting better but some folks just won't try them for their various reasons,and that's their loss. I took a chance with the DI's myself and from the first day I knew I had something special and on the 3rd day I was throwing the boxes and packing away,just happened to be thrash day at my house. I took a even bigger chance when I bought a ps audio direct stream dac,without ever hearing one,that just like my Linear tube audio gear and First watt amps are going nowhere. Kenny. |
Thanks Kenny! And there's literally hundreds more just like you. Thousands more if you wrap the full Tekton lineup into the equation. If people saw our rate of return for the DI's they'd be shocked! That topic alone speaks volumes of truth as to what this speaker is and does. Regarding rates of returns... I'm not saying. We're not a mainstream company, we cater to audiophiles and music industry professionals, and with a demographic like this, we've got the most discerning and critical evaluators on earth. Fact is, they appreciate and like what we do. I've discerned over the years, the biggest gripe the critical types have with me is my decision to not publish measurements and/or extremely detailed loudspeaker specs. This really sends the tweakers into orbit! I design and build 'audio engine's'. Roger Penski, an internal combustion racing engine master said: "If you say anything to anyone, it's like cutting your paycheck in half." I appreciate his sentiment and wisdom. Eric Alexander - audio designer |
I think that this thread has been very helpful. Tekton is a lot like ZU Audio. Very unique designs that are well reviewed and award winning. Having said that, there are flaws and warts in every design. Not every speaker is right for every application so I think it's okay for folks to have concerns before they buy a product without hearing it first. Otherwise, this becomes the Church of Tekton. ;-) |
Yesterday while evaluating DI’s my friend said "I can’t quantify it but they are the best speakers I have ever heard. They are musical instruments" To me this rings true. When I switch to one of my other speakers I am back to the DI’s in less than an hour no matter how good the other speaker measures in room. At the very least my brain is being tricked by what I am hearing and I couldn’t be happier with the result. If I saw a thread revealing a "gotcha" moment exposing bad measurements it wouldn't change my feelings about the product. |
I've said for decades loudspeakers are musical instruments. Why we clump them into a branch of electronics is a big mistake. A bit of exploration and one will discover Tekton and ZU have about zero in common. We'll, I guess we're both in Utah but we certainly don't emulate each other. We have differing audio philosophy across the board. Sean Casey is my freind of upwards of 30 years now and we worked together daily for years - a great friend and professional. Truth be told, we taught each other a ton of stuff. Eric Alexander - audio designer |
Eric.....If you have few buyers returning speakers then why don't you simply take them back on your dime.If what you say is true seems a no brainer as that's one of your stumbling blocks with me.I would also like to see reputable stereo mags review what you offer.Seems like a positive way to convince those on the fence. |
missioncoonery with all due respect you seem hell bent on finding negative things to say about Eric’s speakers. Why? If you don’t want to come out of pocket and try them for yourself then move on and enjoy what you have and leave this thread to those that have put up the money or at the very least have heard these speakers. Judging from the posters here and the amount of gear they have owned I find it difficult to believe these are a flash in the pan flavor of the day. I don’t have a dog in this fight as I’m not an owner of Tekton speakers but I am mighty tempted to get the DI monitors after reading through the recent threads. Until that day comes I feel I have no right to comment on them good or bad and neither do you. |
missioncoonery Eric's return policy is very generous. Especially when evaluated against the industry standards. As a manufacturer, you wouldn't want to expose yourself to customers with no intention to purchase. When you ship something to someone, you want them to have some skin in the game. If you can't afford to risk the cost of return shipping, then you can't afford the speakers in my opinion, and Eric shouldn't have to pass along the cost of your I'll intent of abusing a manufacture's generosity. Is this the best argument you can come up with to fault Eric's product and marketing? Really? |
Bullitt....If Tekton has very little returns according to the maker then why not offer the product with no cost to ship back to the buyer.If not mistaken one pays for them up front or am I mistaken..the company send speakers without being paid for them,Id say that's an intent to purchase,How is that an abuse to purchase?lol..is that the best you have,reeeeally. |
"...you seem hell bent on finding negative things to say about Eric’s speakers. Why? If you don’t want to come out of pocket and try them for yourself then move on and enjoy what you have and leave this thread...I feel I have no right to comment on them good or bad and neither do you." chrshanl37 he has every right to comment here without any interference from you we practice FREE SPEECH on this sight he can say what he likes and if you don't like it you don't have to read it you can also comment to the moderators and ask that his post be deleted but they WILL NOT do that because he is allowed to speak his piece here who are you to tell anyone here to go away or shut up? |
Never heard Tekton speakers. Given the high cost of shipping these days, and the savings to the consumer associated with direct purchase, I think that the cost of shipping is reasonably put on the buyer. If you buy something from B&M store of any kind, and you want to return it, you usually have to bring it back to the place you bought it from. And many (but not all, I'll admit) mail/internet sellers place return shipping cost on buyer. Those that don't typically have so much purchasing power that they pay far less than a small manufacturer does, so they have little at risk. As far as payment up front w a cc guaranteeing a serious purchaser and not a lookie-loo, just read the threads on this site about folks returning stuff, claiming shipping damage or other nonsense. PayPal and the cc company charge-back policies place virtually all of the risk on the seller, so it's not unreasonable to ask the buyer to pay two-way shipping. If that does not work for you, you can vote with your feet and your wallet. Just my $0.02. |
I believe that if there is a return situation, Tekton eats the send shipping cost since it was "free." There is more risk buying internet direct but the reward is if you like the speaker, you can save quite a bit. The guy who started the DI monitor thread originally really liked them, but then returned them due to being too forward for his taste and there being a "hole" in the center image with his specific room setup. I think that the moral of the story is that no speaker can meet everyone's tastes. The DI might not be ideal for those midrange junkies that like a laid back sound (harbeth ls3/5a) but might be perfect for home theater and music that has slam. |
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missioncoonery624 posts08-13-2017 8:51pmEric.....If you have few buyers returning speakers then why don't you simply take them back on your dime.If what you say is true seems a no brainer as that's one of your stumbling blocks with me.I would also like to see reputable stereo mags review what you offer.Seems like a positive way to convince those on the fence.I once bought a pair of empty speaker cabinets locally from a well-know (around here) builder. The price was very low for a pair of well made cabinets, and when I picked them up I told him they were well worth the low price. He said he usually offers his old cabs to fellow Audio Society members for free, but everyone was like "Free!!" and grabbed them but never used them, and they ended up getting thrown away or whatever. So he put these for sale, and since I was paying he thought there was a good chance I'd actually use them, which I did. Similar situation with free shipping both ways. People would order them like crazy, then listen, then return. Oh well, no skin off my back. Considering the interest the hundreds of posts (thousands by now??) that the Tekton DI thread is generating, I'm sure Eric would be building A LOT of speakers for people with absolutely zero intention to purchase if it was all at no cost to hear them. |
@seanheis1 you mention the DI’s might not be ideal for midrange junkies and that they are for movies and music with slam. You feel that way after listening to DI’s? How long did you spend with a pair? I love the mid range they and they perform beautifully with delicate music. I’d put it right up with the Audio Note AN-E/Lx Hemp I owned previously for mids. Female vocals and classical guitar sound just right. The softer sounding Oscar Peterson recordings are perfect. |
