the big one: how do you choose speakers? By what features, data?

@nonoise 

re:

• the design considerations of the designer
• his philosophy behind the build and components 

these are tough, I am not sure how much you can find out online. So many speaker web sites and information are so lame

@grislybutter , Agreed. A lot of the press a company puts out is spin of some sort but the way Daniel Emonts portrayed it was different from what others do, which intrigued me. Lots of (online) word of mouth helped to validate what he claimed and a quick look on his Linkedin page bore out. 

Throw in his unique choice of materials and not relying on off the shelf drivers, making his own, and I was mostly sold. A lot of press on Andrew Jones and his resume and achievements were well accepted and I truly feel that Daniel Emonts is right up there with him. He just doesn't have the exposure, which is a shame.

While researching the speakers, I came across a subtle dig at his driver material from a reviewer I respect (he disparaged foam backed drivers in a review of another speaker maker w/out naming names) which now makes me think he's in the bag for another company.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise re Daniel Emonts

pretty cool! per his linked page. He designed the Evoke, Special 40, Heritage, Contour lines, pretty much what carried Dynaudio in the last 5 years.

@grislybutter , Knowing that, it made sense to me to pay $2500 for his speaker instead of $7000 for the equivalent Dynaudio. 👍

All the best,
Nonoise

yes, pretty smart!

what would make you stretch your budget?

rationalization.  Trying to convince myself that when it come to high end audio components regular thoughtful purchasing habits go out the window, then some sort of cost/benefit heavily swayed by fascination that seals the deal.   

These Revival Audio speakers from Daniel Emonts look slick! I'm guessing that they give KEF, Focal and Dynaudio a run for their money. You can tell that the design and craftsmanship are considerate. The prices are very reasonable too.

However, you're paying full MSRP.

Yesterday I bought a Creek 4240 integrated amp for only 130€. I say this because the seller was also putting up a pair of Castle bookshelf speakers in excellent condition with wooden stands for sale around 250€. Castle is a very reputable British speaker brand. So you have a solid amp + speaker combo for under 500€. The equivalent new would be 3000€. Granted, this is 2000s equipment, but it sounds excellent to my ears. I see another local add for Castle speakers for 300€. 

So if you happen to live in France, look for Castle speakers. They're so underrated and underpriced on the used market. Equivalent JBLs would cost like 1000€. 

It's a shame that Americans hype everything up. Vintage gear seems a lot more expensive over there. It's appalling that beatup Klipsch Heresy speakers go for $800 easily. 

@kokakolia 

The Castles look like great value! Where do you find these deals?

@grislybutter Over on the local classfields. If it ain’t Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer, Focal, Cabasse or JBL people don’t care or want it. 

My two cents: figure out what you like, not what reviewers like. Define what you like as much as you can. Do you like laid back smooth sound or higher detail, do you like huge sound stage, are looks important (for me for sure), what’s your budget, etc. Then demo, listen at dealers, buy, return, and sell until you are satisfied—being satisfied for me will last just as long it takes to get accustomed to my system and then I want to change something!

I’ve had a huge variety of speakers—vintage Marantz, Polk, Cambridge, Q Acoustics, Dynaudio, Tekton, and Sonus Faber. For me modern Sonus Faber is my choice. Sensitivity matters most if you have low powered tube amps.

 

w123ale

72 posts

05-11-2023 at 07:24pm 

My two cents: figure out what you like, not what reviewers like. Define what you like as much as you can. Do you like laid back smooth sound or higher detail, do you like huge sound stage, are looks important (for me for sure), what’s your budget, etc. Then demo, listen at dealers, buy, return, and sell until you are satisfied—being satisfied for me will last just as long it takes to get accustomed to my system and then I want to change something!

+1. There is no short cut. You will have to put up the work and the time. As long as it’s fun, and not a chore, it’s all worth it

@w123ale @thyname 

Understood. It's fun. It's just that there are 70+ hifi speaker companies to choose from, price narrows it down to about 40, looks to another 20 and then I have to find a way to filter it further as to which ones I listen to. 

@grislybutter : I understand. You just take the leap of faith for the first pair. And you go from there. Gradually. I have had 9 (nine) pairs of speakers over the past 20 years since seriously in the hobby. And I can’t really say my current speakers are my last. I sincerely cannot possibly know. With a few misses, everything so far has been a worthwhile journey. The key is to enjoy the hobby. Not be a chore. And time, interest, exploration, exposure, and of course, discretionary income 🤷‍♂️

I’d add that larger speakers have been my preference as they throw a bigger sound stage and are more likely to disappear.

yes, I know there is no cure. My next speakers will be the ones I will upgrade from. It sure will determine the direction. And I also noticed that size matters. 

I was in the same boat last year. I saved a few grand and splurged. Don't be hasty with your buying decisions. Reviewers only exist to sell you on new product which is priced at full MSRP. In hindsight the older models on clearance aren't much different. This narrows down your choice by a lot. 

In reading these posts, it seems many people do grasp the challenge of "room sound" -that their future speakers need to work well in their room- but the way of assessing this is through their own listening impressions. This is not a reliable method for if you have not heard "correct" sounds, don’t know how to listen, you can very easily choose a speaker that appears to sonically solve room problems. Put a simpler way, if you room lacks bass, you seek a speaker that has more bass (than flat) to compensate. We see this all the time in studios, even more so in home systems. IF the listener does not know what correct is, they can often chase their tail and jump from speaker to speaker to speaker based around perceived playback results.

Solution? In pro its to measure the room and understand the room first, decide what you can do to fix it acoustically before attempting to "solve " it through loudspeakers. Another method is to educate the listener on what "good" playback actually sounds like, which often can be very illusive as many stores demo rooms and playback systems are severely flawed yet are passed on as a "standard". This can leave the speaker customer in quite a quandary as he or she attempts to define "good" when there is no available consensus or positive standard they can assess.

This points us to the question of: does the hi fi enthusiast need to learn how to listen and acquire the listening skills to know "this is good bass", "this is too much bass", "this is not enough bass"? Once that info is roughly understood then it possible to relate it to your own room and know, yes this system in my room is close or not close. A skilled sales person can manipulate a customer to think just about anything they want based on subtle source choices, level choices and combinations of gear in front of the speaker. This may be manipulative or it may be in the customers best interest, as determined but the store’s/saleperson’s intentions. So finding a trusted salesperson or educated friend teach you how to listen can be the entire ball game. A home system with no reference can lead a purchaser down an expensive (and ultimately incorrect) path.

We arrive back at the idea that learning how to listen and hearing a "good" system may indeed be the single most important skill to acquire.

Perhaps hi fi shows are best for establishing this "reference" information, as one can listen for periods of time to systems that are well set up and do sound correct.

Brad

@lonemountain 

these are very good points. Obviously I am still struggling to define it "on paper" - given my room size, budget, other components, listening preferences, come up with a list of good candidates. I don't go to audio shows and my local shop is pretty "busy" for my budget, so my main option is trying different models with good return policy.

@grislybutter 

If you’re clueless and starting out the entry level is more forgiving because the price is low and you don’t need a serious amplifier. Anything from cheap class D mini amp to an old AVR will get the job done. If you just want to fill a small room with music (or watch movies) and are not worried about hearing every nuance (or having the clearest, fastest bass) then just get a pair of Q Acoustics 3020 or Polk R100 or Triangle BR02. To me it’s a no-brainer and everything else is a luxury. 2 channel listening is just awesome. 

@kokakolia

I am not entirely clueless but closer to clueless than informed. I did the first round (~$500) about 8 years ago and the the $1500 level 2 years ago and now I am planning to enter the 3K territory (2K used). I understand what I like, what I prefer and what is low priority on my list.

You probably pointed out 3 of the best values in the 4-500 EU/USD range, what do you think about the 3K range? 2500 to 4000 which I can buy for 2K used.

I haven’t read all the responses but I can assure you, that purchasing a Yamaha CR620 receiver for about $200-$300 and either a Legacy Signature III or Focus speakers for $1500-$2500 (all used but very durable/recap the Yamaha if necessary) will bring you fabulous sound at a very low budget cost. You can always move up in electronics but you will probably keep the speakers for decades (or until you can spend a lot more money). If you already have a decent preamp/amp, then the Sig IIIs are easy to drive, great bass and slam, gorgeous quick mids and spacious highs (rear tweeter). I use a 35 watt tube amp on the Sig IIIs in my living room. My main listening room Focus require more power with 6 12" woofers and lower impedance for tube amps, not a problem with the solid state receiver. that has good current/control.

Clarity

Tight bass

Synergy with rest of equipment

@fleschler

I think you are right about a Yamaha receiver- Ive bought several in different houses as the sound and feature set is good even at low cost levels. In my own world (as I do import both pro and hi fi ATC to the US), a pair of ATC SCM 11’s that are around 2K new gets you pretty much in right ball park. A reasonable receiver will get you the same sound as the studio most of the time, depending on room.

Some say we should seek tight bass? Maybe so, but this is HEAVILY influenced by the room. You can have a tight bass speaker not sound tight in many different kinds of spaces, especially reflective ones, square or rectangular with even dimensions of placement, hard floors, hard walls, low hard ceiling ones. Room "standing waves" can make one think the speaker’s bass is anything but tight and this is 100% room. [To know for sure, just take your speakers outside where there are no walls, and see if the bass is tight. Second choice, take speaker to a largest room you can get, set up in the middle away from all surfaces.] Ceramic tile or stone floors will mess up any speaker; a wall of glass will mess up imaging, speakers right up agains side walls will never image as well as they could, and the list goes on.

So in your listening room., shoot for uneven dimensions, no square or round rooms, no low ceilings, avoid glass in the room, avoid anything highly [acoustically) reflective in the room. Soft surfaces everywhere helps. If the room has any echo when you talk, it will be FOR SURE horrible for playback of audio no matter where you put the speakers.

Brad

@grislybutter  I wish I could help you more. I watched a bunch of reviews, but without the personal experience to back it up I can't stand by my words. I re-read the entire discussion and something stands out to me: you want some punch. So you want full-range speakers. Something like a KEF R3 (non-meta) will seem like an obvious choice at first, but the bass is a bit shy (bookshelf speaker by design). 

My advice: Go to Audiogon classfields. Tick fullrange speaker criteria. Sort by price. There are several standouts under $2.5k: JBL L200, Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand Symphony, Canton Chrono SL, Neat Acoustics Xplorer... But I have no experience with those, just brand recognition. 

@kokakolia

I think I prefer three things in this order: warmth, upper midrange and details.

I think I have those from my current speakers - Evoke 20s so I would like add more presence, speed and disappearing speakers/imaging.

I’d like to stick with bookshelf, but you may be right. I have huge respect for Vienna Acoustics.

I will send you my list of 70 speaker brands, it helps me put things in context.

@grislybutter I’m afraid that a list of 70 speakers wouldn’t do much for me… I’m not in the market. I just want to hear what other people have…

And I wish you could hear my setup. I mean I have speed, detail and imaging in spades with my OGY. It’s just not the most dynamic. Maybe you could move up the chain and have it all with floorstanders… You gotta try some speakers. 

@kokakolia right, I won't bother you with it, I just wanted to show how I narrow it down.

Clarity and tight bass. Would also be nice,

If it had center synergy with my existing amp.

By how it looks.

@webking185 finally!

Two cents:   Try and figure out what type of speaker you like the sound of first. That really narrows down the list and ought to be the easiest thing to listen for. Our choices in design can change over time; that's fine as one upgrades.

Finding the 'house' sound that you prefer, of a good brand, within the type of loudspeaker, is worthwhile next (eg B&W, Focal, Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, et al). Finding a good used (within budget) pair of speakers as high up the line is great.

I am 100% into used. Most are taken care of very well, especially the higher up. As some say, these days, 'watts is cheap'. There are great amps with plenty of power, AB or D that don't break the bank. I have never allowed sensitivity to dictate my speaker choice and sound but I do usually dislike horn in-your-face sound so it never mattered. I did gradually move from electrostats to boxes.

Buying or upgrading speakers is always an interesting journey. Good work on doing your homework as best you can!

The CSS Audio 1TdX is really good. Reminds me a lot of Dynaudio C1s but will play louder without bottoming out. They have a bass module that is very reasonable that turns it into a pretty badass 3 way for pretty cheap ish. If I would have known that before I sold them I may not have. 

@mofojo 

funny you mention it. I have been looking at it for weeks and have no idea why it's s cheap!! and the Typhon looks great!

@musicaddict 

So if I like a make and model, and I want to look at ones that sound similar, do the specs help me narrow it down? In other words: speakers with the same design, construction, sensitivity, etc. should appeal to me?

I am trying to start my research "on paper".

Haven't thought much in depth about specs and the sound of a speaker but I doubt that can be used as a workable guide. Speakers can measure similarly and sound vastly different.  

I don't have the music-speak for it, but to me (after 45 years of listening) it is all about how the speaker 'releases the notes'. Some may sound 'lightweight' and still measure like fat or dull-sounding speakers.  And, sadly, not all speaker lines have guaranteed consistent sounding models...but most seem to have their own sound.

I'd say try to hear as much as you can and take notes on general sound quality. Amps can affect this somewhat (might not hurt to note the amp you heard driving the speaker you auditioned). Buying an unheard speaker is a lot larger crapshoot than amplification or source. I only bought unheard, used D2s because I knew exactly what D1s sounded like in my room and knew the only difference was the additional bottom end. That was not a gamble.  :-)  

I'd suggest reading reviews (and lots and lots) as a better way than specs to arrive at potential speakers to try to listen to. It takes time but when you start to understand different reviewers' biases it gets more informative. Specs can sometimes tell you what to stay away from.    Have at it!

Speakers are very simple devices that have to obey physical laws like any other transducer. The only other consideration that is as important is the room you are putting them in. This assumes your goal is accuracy, reproducing exactly what is in the recording and presenting it in a manner that could be thought of as realistic. There are certain types of speakers that because of their physical characteristics do this better than other types. It is these physical characteristics that one needs to pay attention to. 

@mijostyn what are "these physical characteristics"?

That's what I am looking for, quantifiable things that show up in the specs.

@grislybutter , its an important factor, no one wants to spend XXX amount dollars on something and its ugly, you have to stare at it.  For me sound will be sound, how detail and refined will also depend on the amp and souce.  Call me shallow and maybe its me.  I have enjoyed listening to my speakers, the Silverline Sonata II are growing on me each day. 

@webking185 

I think there is more to looks than just looks. Everything (or 90%) is encoded in the looks. The company's DNA, priorities attention to detail, the type of sound they want to accomplish, etc. Unless it's a DIY speaker, I think it's like wine, you can tell the region where it's from based on the looks, and the year.

@grislybutter , like anything in life.  Its the price point that make people wonder.

< 500, no one cares

>2500, people are reading reviews and studying for the SAT

>5000, they need to ask their wives for permission

>10K, buyers remorse

>25K who cares, they look awesome

>50K, doesn't care on anyone's opinion as is probably not reading these forums.

@webking185 

pure gold!

The Sound.

(To my ears).

And aesthetics.

I have certain things that I value in sound reproduction, hence in the ways speakers can sound. So i’m not chasing numbers (measurements) per se (not that those are inconsequential of course), but rather a sound I want.

When I encounter a speaker that does more of what I’m looking for, at a show, a dealer’s place, another audiophile’s system etc, ...that’s my criteria. I will however be put off if I find the speaker to be ugly. I also want my speakers to be a nice piece of furniture. Fortunately there are so many speakers out there, finding a combination of pleasing sound and aesthetics hasn’t been impossible.

Outside of my own direct encounters with speakers, I will also look to things like speaker reviews, the reports of other audiophiles, to suss out whether people are hearing positive things I care about in a particular model. So for instance all the reports of the textural presence and sonic weight to the sound in the Devore O series speakers ticked some of my boxes, which led me to seek out auditions. And indeed, they ticked those boxes.

Where with my Joseph speakers, I wasn’t led to them via reviews, but by a chance encounter at an audio show. I wouldn’t have necessarily known they stood out for me, unless I’d heard it for myself.

I’ve found my long term CJ Premier 12 monoblocks have been happy to drive speakers big and small, "hard" or "easy" to drive, in my room. So although I favor tube amps, I don’t feel I need to seek out speakers specifically "tube amp friendly."

One thing though is that I can be very intrigued simply by the looks or design of a speaker. It may be the aesthetic beauty, or the audacious or idiosyncratic quality of the design, that makes me feel "Man I’d love to hear what that sounds like." That’s one thing I love about the variety of speakers at audio shows.

@grislybutter These things do not necessarily show up in specs. They are usually design elements that produce a certain effect. Some of it is personal and a matter of experience. For instance, I could care less what a speaker looks like as long as it is well constructed. I want a speaker with sharply limited dispersion, no more than 45 degrees above 250 Hz. Only dipoles and horns meet this requirement. The purpose is to minimize room interaction. I prefer the larger, more realistic sound stage of a line source but in order to work well it has to cover the entire spectrum from 10 Hz to 20 kHz or beyond. This now limits me to very large dipoles. At one point Magneplanar was thinking of making an 8 foot 20.7. The marketing department talked them out of it! In order for a line source to function down to 10 Hz it has either got to be 60 feet tall or run from floor to ceiling, all the way from floor to ceiling. The two most common ceiling sizes are 8 and 9 feet which is why Sound Labs makes 8 and 9 foot speakers. You could easily make ribbons or planar magnetics do this but to my knowledge none do! Fine by me as I prefer ESLs anyway as they can be run without any crossovers to great advantage, excepting one to the subwoofers which I think are mandatory for these speakers to sound their best. As a matter of fact I purchased my Sound Labs without ever having heard or seen them. By design I knew exactly what they are capable of. I had 8 foot Acoustats for decades, a very similar speaker. 

@yxcbandit  The problem with trusting ones own ears is that most of us do not have ears we can trust. How you hear a system depends entirely on your experience listening to a multitude of systems. You cannot know what a system is capable of until you hear it. I built my first amplifier in 1967, a Dynakit Stereo 70. I had no idea how well a system could image until I heard the system of a high school teacher in Miami, FL in 1980. That system had been my target for some 35 years until I managed to build a system that functioned above that level. A large part of it was the room not his system. Back then people were just beginning to deal with room acoustics in residential settings. 

Another problem is your ears can not tell you what to do proactively. My ears do not tell me what equipment to buy. They do tell me whether or not I have that equipment set up correctly as they have that reference built in. 

The key is to gain as much experience as possible listening to other systems. This is not easy. I was fortunate in that I paid my way through school setting up HiFi systems for very wealthy people and worked with the top high end dealer in the area. I got to hear a lot of systems in more intimate environments. It is unfortunate that shows do not work well for this and you have to be deceptive with dealers. In order to get their best service you have to make them think you are qualified (read wealthy) and ready to spend a fortune. Wear gold jewelry and drive up in a 911.

In short, your ears can tell you what is acceptable to you. They can not distinguish  what a system is capable of without having heard it.  

@mijostyn design elements are usually on the spec list but of course it varies. EVERY brand publishes a different set of data

and of course my knowledge is about 3% of yours, my selection criteria is way more basic.

@grislybutter Sometimes too much information can hurt you, especially in this audiophile hobby. 

If you constantly watch speaker reviews, then you'll constantly be fed the same information. This information shall influence your decision more than you'd like to admit. 

Case and point: the Klipsch RP600M was the best thing since sliced bread back in 2019. It got all of the awards from the press and the online community hyped it up to insane levels. I sort of fell into the trap, only because I purchased them without audition at 50% off. The deal was "too good to pass". When I set them up I was underwhelmed. My dad's Q Acoustics 3020 just sound better in every metric (vocal clarity, bass, smoother highs...). 

It's clear that "you get what you pay for". Honestly, most speakers in the entry-level from big brands like Klipsch, B&W, Focal or Triangle perform similarly. It's just that subjectively some brands sound a lot worse to me than others (Klipsch grrrr...). 

Nothing beats a real audition, and with multiple speakers of different brands in the same room. I was honestly shocked how similar the KEF LS50 Meta Wireless and KEF LS60 sounded. The KEF LS60 just have more bass. 

You gotta jump the shark. Go to audition stuff. 

@grislybutter , Marketing is the fine art of lying and numbers can be misleading. Learn about the physics of loudspeakers, crossovers and drivers. Learn about acoustics. Everyone is worried about ears. You need to use your eyes first. This is so and so a speaker, now how does so and so a speaker sound? People who know what they are doing can tell in a very general way how a speaker is going to react to the environment just by looking at them. This interaction between your speakers and the room they are in is the single most important determinant of sound quality.

Anyone can make a speaker that sounds good, but making a speaker that can image is a whole other problem and much more difficult. The Bose 901 is a great example of a speaker that many people love but it is the worst imaging speaker on the market, even worse than Tektons. The reason modern enclosed loudspeakers like Wilsons and Magicos are so expensive is that in order to make that kind of speaker work well you have to make perfectly silent enclosures and very complicated crossovers aside from using great drivers. 

@yxcbandit , Very good point about controlled dispersion and very true. The wall behind my SLs is covered with 4" acoustic tile. However, the best way to go about this is to measure first to see what your speakers and room are doing. Trusting your ears is a mistake if they have no reference. People who are use to bright loudspeakers will think speakers with a flat response sound dull. Learn what flat sounds like and then adjust the system to your taste. My system runs flat from 100 Hz to 20 kHz and the gets boosted at 6 dB/oct from 100 Hz down to 18 Hz. This gives the sensation of a live performance at more sane listening levels. Flat is the reference. With the newest digital preamp processors you have perfect control over all of this and you get a measurement Mic with the unit. For $300 you can get a wonderful USB mic and measurement program. Measure first then adjust to taste.

Because I know what flat sounds like I can tell what a system is doing in loose terms. I will never be as accurate as a calibrated microphone. Nobody will.

I have also seen some very silly acoustic treatments. Find your first reflections and place absorption there floor to ceiling. The first reflection pattern is not straight. It is the cross section of a sphere. Absorption needs to cover this entire pattern for standard dynamic speakers. People with dipoles only need to treat the wall behind the speaker. Why?  

Who are these so called experts? None of them here.

I know it is all how it sounds in my listening space, no marketing, no bs spec sheets. Could care less. All sound.

I am curious how the experts choose speakers when upgrading? What are the priorities, what would make you stretch your budget?

@recklesskelly

"expert" - anyone who knows more than me. Practically ANYONE on this forum.

I have to start somewhere, what’s easier than browsing the web and compare prices, sizes, sensitivity, design, etc.

But of course, primarily: looking at pictures.

@mijostyn 

The reason modern enclosed loudspeakers like Wilsons and Magicos are so expensive is that in order to make that kind of speaker work well you have to make perfectly silent enclosures and very complicated crossovers aside from using great drivers. 

this is the kind of info I am looking for: what should I be looking for. I am good with data, numbers, detective work/analysis. I know if a speaker is made in Zurich and in the shape of a cubist sculpture, it will be expensive. It won't necessarily translate to good sound. If it's a box, made in Provo, UT, it might be good value....

@kokakolia 

I have heard a lot of Klipsch speakers, tried them at home, I was never impressed. Of course I never heard the real deal, the Heritage stuff, which may be awesome, as I have read.