True 'dat,
The Snob Appeal Premium
I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome". Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ? Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' ! Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product.
Here's an anecdotal example:
I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare.
I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application.
In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish.
I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit". I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola".
Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine.
I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room.
Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse.
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All of the talk of box materials is interesting. I do like metal boxes. On the other hand, if I wanted to make a completely rigid box I could go to Home Depot and get some MDF and porcelain floor tiles and make a box that'd be just as rigid for not much money. Make the MDF box slightly big, cut the tiles to size and caulk them to the inner walls. That's not going to let anything out or flex. Any company that wanted complete rigidity but not the hassle of metal working could do it. |
From what I understand only the heat sinks and covers are made by chinese prisoners because no one in the US makes them. Do you have anything to back a suggestion of more than this because you are obviously suggesting their entire components are chinese. I would pointout that the sprout is chinese and therefore not what I would consider real PSAudio. |
I live in New England. I have a C4S and drove it every day. A real SUV. Now I swap it out on occasion for a TRX, my new sports car. Scares the hell out of everyone else on the road (except the cops). The only time I am not listening to music is when I am sleeping. Most of the listening is with my shop system, two pairs of old Mirage speakers with Adcom electronics and a bunch of big machines. There is no multi six figure loudspeaker I care to own. I have never heard a set sound as good or image as well as line source, dipole ESLs. Most multi six figure speakers can certainly go louder. My TRX can leave my old C4S in the dust. The C4S will murder the TRX on the track. The most important and expensive part of any system is the room it sits in. A bad room can make the best speakers sound like sh-t. I was recently in the theater of a very wealthy person who was not an audiophile. It was gorgeous with walnut wainscoting, outrageous wallpaper and leather theater seating in 3 rows. He was showing me how great it sounded with a hi def digital copy of The Wall. It was very hard not to laugh. The panels in the wainscoting were buzzing away. The builder did not bother to dampen them. |
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Thank you very much @pennfootball71 I've been curious about the YG speakers (not in the market) and will finally hear some soon at a friend's place. I'm familiar with the Vivid Audio speakers sound. "Vivid" they are! I auditioned the Magico A3 and found it somewhat disapointing. Disappeared nicely, was pretty boxless and detailed, but sort of boring and dynamically limp, with slightly over-ripe bass. Your Kharma remarks mirror what I heard when I auditioned Kharma speakers. They were dark, rich, relaxed, grain-free, but overblown in the bass. I also found some Raidho stand mounted monitors to be a bit too colored, scooped in the mids and a bit obnoxious in the bass. I've always wanted to hear Borreson speakers and your impressions are a surprise! Strangely, Wilson speakers have managed to hide from me for years and years. I just never encounter them anywhere! |
YG acoustics Carmel 2, YG acoustics Hailey 2.2, YG Sonja 2.2 YG is very flat, need a ton of power and kind of a huge studio monitor but never harsh. Vivid Kaya 25 & 45, Vivid Giya G1 and G2 vivid are like open baffle speakers bolted on different size subs and blended better than you can blend with subs. Sideways bass drivers don’t mess with room as much and dig down deeper than advertised frequency response. Easy to drive 6 ohm loads. Dynamikks Athos 10 (best bang per buck) They are concentric Horns around a midrange. Great highs and magical mids. Bass dies at about 35 htz. They need subs. Magico A5 & Magico S5…A5 is a bit bright and lacks a little bass but is not thin. The S5 has a we bit more bass and a shittier midrange. Kharma Exquisite Midi 3.0 boomy bass perfect mids and highs but a disappointing mess that’s not controlled down low. Wilson Alexx V, Wilson Alexia V, Wilson Sash DAW Alexia-V and Alexx-V solid build, colored midrange but nice and warm…tons of bass and depending on set up can be boomy obnoxious to glorious. Highs are adequate but not enough sparkle. The Vivids crush them like grapefruits. Raidho TD 3.8, Raidho D3 amazing speakers but Td3.8 a bit boomy. The older D3 is better and has better control.
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ghdprentice, I totally get it... also have driven some real turds ..... when I had a young family I was very fiscally responsible to make sure they had everything they needed. Always put them first .... now they are adults and ask for nothing. But.... I love quality gear. I am fortunate to have just taken in a pair of Sonus Faber monitors. They sound fantastic. They are 20 + years old , but you would never know it. Look and sound amazing. When.I listen to speakers of this calibre it validates the old saying " you get what you pay for " I was going to sell these but it is nice being able to rotate speakers. I am having a pair of Omegas built so I am using these for the time being . The goal of my bedroom system was : not to break the bank , compact , good sound, convenient I took a chance and bought a new Cyrus i7XR that was on closeout. I’m staring at it right now and am amazed how good this little shoe box sized amp sounds. I am definitely keeping this one. Built in DAC , phono, remote, AV mode and a bunch of other great and unique features. It’s in my main listening room right now. Plays nice with my Forte too...
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I'd be very interested in your impressions, even if brief, of the speakers on that impressive list! Cheers. |
To me, you are the essence of a true audiophile. Someone that is passionate about sound quality / music and makes concessions in other parts of their life to achieve the best possible sound for you. I had a cheap used Datson 1200 car for fifteen years (20 - 35), and bought the cheapest TP, but bought a new a cutting edge Threshold amplifier (costing over 5 times what my car costs). No snobbery, just passion. |
I’m lucky , kids are grown , bills are low , hearing is still pretty good. I make no apologies for any toys I buy. I save for something I want , never buy anything I can’t pay for in cash …. I also try to buy gear that is desirable at resale. Sometimes my swapping out gear is more like a long term rental. In the case of some CJ and Mac gear I have sold I have actually profited. |
I don’t find a lot of snobs here. [a person who believes they are superior to others, due to their wealth, social status, or taste in culture]. I think there are a lot of big egos. Folks that have found their system but without the breath of experience to realize there are lots of different tastes in sound, objectives, and budgets. So they think their way is the only way. Also, frequently restricted budget thing plus ego equals looking down on people as having too much money and no sense, or visa versa. If you’re really going to be a snob. This just isn’t the pursuit for you. You need something flashy recognized by almost everyone. Not just .001% of the population, that is really esoteric. I think houses, cars, clothing, clubs… that kind thing is more prowl to snobbery. |
My system is as humble as your own ... Dont feel shame the relation between musical nirvana and sound perfection is not linear nor directly related... My "virtual room" motto is : Top Hi-fi audiophile experience for the not wealthy... I am dead serious about it... 😊 By the way only ignorant people will claim that their audio system is superior to anyone else because of price especially if their audio system as most system are in living room with few if any acoustical embeddings controls.. There is evident exception , go see mikelavigne virtual system...His room acoustic is the main factor for me...I know that his system is TOP... But many other flashy one dont touch it... And my modest system is not too far behind those that dont touch it anyway... 😊
The other reason is hearing is so complex and synergetical windows of coupled components so complex and variable too especially if we add the various embeddings situation and devices around them , that bragging about the design superiority of amplifier over another less costly one but relatively good one is preposterous presented as for everyone the ONLY solution...
“ With over a million essential moving parts, the
And the minimal S. Q. satisfaction threshold is relatively easy to grab, modulo embeddings control with basic knowledge and relatively good basic components at low price, especially TOP vintage of the past...
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I’ve always been aware that my gear is humble compared to many systems here. As far as I’m concerned I don’t care if anyone thinks my audio indulgences are ridiculous. They are not in comparison to many friends hobbies. Their hobbies are way more expensive…. Boats , ski trips , trips in general. I like to travel but I have no problem spending what a trip would cost on a really good component or speakers. It’s tangible and will give me many years of enjoyment |
My answer will be complex because you are right and wrong at the same times.. Yes we own our own ears inner filters each different from other person , our heads dimensions and ears distance and geometry differ too... Our personal listening and hearing history differ too.. Then we had each one of us our biases ... You are right on this ... ( it is the reason why, ultimately small room acoustic COULD BE tailored made for ONE pair of ears and is very different in acoustic application from great Hall acoustic, as headphone measured for Smyth realizer or for the Choueri Filters must be very specifically tailored made experience for one specific pair of ears ) But where you are not completely right here, it is by the omission of acoustic and psycho-acoustic laws or principles which are the same for everyone.. The only way to learn which is timbre , apart for recognizing a good timbre subjectively by memory and training , is learning how to control the acoustic factors modifying it... it is the same for all other aspects, as dynamics, transients, imaging differentiation , soundstage varying dimensions , holographic volume of sound source , immersiveness etc each of these factors cannot be understood if we do not learn, not only how to recognize them, but how to modify them... How can we experience immersiveness, the most important factor with Timbre, which is a very specific acoustic factors defined by ratios of timing, and distance , and ratios of reflective/diffusive/absorbing surfaces, and relative to the pressure zones specific dynamic in the room , and balance ratios between sound sources and the listener position , etc ? It is the reason why it is acoustic and psycho-acoustic which is at the center of audio experience FIRST , not the gear electrical performance as Objectivist claims erroneously or apparent sound performance and qualities and their price tags as subjectivist claims erroneously ... Snobism is based on two factors : ignorance of what is really important and exclusion of those who dont recognize the arbitrary factors constituting snobism as a selected club where some sheep thinking around a secondary factor is elevated to idol status...Objectivist and subjectivism may become snobism clubs based on different orientation which can be meaningful when relativized but whose meaning is erased in quarrelling meaninglessness.. Then acoustician cannot be snobs nor could we think they are only because they know better than objectivists or subjectivists.. The right answer in audio is this one : use your ears to verify information and to train them but base your journey on experiments more than just purchases of consumers good ...
«I snob myself a lot »--Groucho Marx 🤓
«Sound are subjective qualitative experience of sound sources and informative one about localization and time and they are not reducible to be mere waves or illusions»--Anonymus acoustician
«I see better eyes closed when playing»--Harpo Marx🧐
«Sounds are like animals in a room , i track them »--Indian drum player
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I try to not be either a snob, nor an a/h....lifes' too short. I know that I can be the latter, spouse occasionally accuses self of such...and she's a decent judge of that....when she's not being one as well, or acting as such... ;) Snobby? Perhaps, not intentional, but granted the potential... We all have preferences, 'imho', feet in the concrete rockrib stance stuff. At days' end or dawns' early light, if any given pair of us can concede that the other is allowed their conceptions, mis- or otherwise... It's all Good, as it should be. Play often. Play LOUD. Just keep playing... ;)
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@mahgister (IMHO) recognizing ‘good sound’ on a superficial level is about hearing sounds you’re most familiar with. So human vocals. Maybe an instrument if you’re a musician. How does that sound coming out of the speakers compare to the ‘real thing’? You may entirely disagree with me and value bass or soundstage or micro details. There’s no wrong answer. Only snobs think that they have the right answer. It’s subjective I guess. Yes, this is some painfully superficial information you’d probably find on ‘Wiki How’. But the surge of salesman audio reviews praising the heck out of terribly artificial sounding speakers such as the Klipsch RP600M has me worried. I am such a snob in that regard! Yikes… Aaaand, I am a snob for single driver speakers without crossovers. I think that they do vocals and guitars better. Everyone has biases. But I heard some 2 way speakers with great results and I don’t know what to believe anymore. |
This has been a fun thread. Lots of valuable ideas too! The guys that took the time to consider the OP and the guys who spent some time to discuss DIY speakers- cheers to you! I enjoy seeing those of a certain *ahem* persuasion attack, disparage, ridicule anything they have not endorsed is a pleasure too.....one fool suggested if you don't agree with his perspective get a boat or a Harley. Funny that- as if the guys here only had one hobby and only one place to spend their time and money. Mom's basement gets cold in the winter for the hater guys LOL! On DIY speakers: I'm amazed at the quality of drivers that you can buy for not much money compared to the cost of a "brand affirmed" product. GR, Graveson stuff makes me want to get in the shop this January and get some low cost high results education on subs. Even if you shrew up the kit you are more educated and better off. I'm also amazed at those who are consumed with class envy and system envy. These are miserable humans who cannot enjoy the subtle, wonderful, exciting parts of life. Sad, really. Life's a beyatch and then you die- and off to your reward- Forever. Sucks to be you indeed. Thanking you all again for the fun, education and info! and to the haters here: Kiss my foot :) |
The biggest bargain in my audio life are not my 20 bucks miraculous good dac, nor my two Sansui Amplifiers nor my 50 bucks Mission Cyrus speakers... It is the AKG k340 a mythical headphone that most people are unable to figure out and drive well... It takes me 6 months to do it and optimize them... I dont know if they are the best headphone ever designed but i think so for evident reason... Because they are old they were discarded as TOP headphone now, i paid 100 bucks for this misunderstood complex design compared to most headphones on the market ... Incredible... Top high end for peanuts when optimized... They beat anything i ever listen to ( speakers included) ... But beware they cannot reveal their potential right out of the box sorry... I even read the patent to understand how they work... Each evening i entered in sonic paradise...thanks to Dr. Gorike who beat even the Stax omega with this gem...Seismic bass and celestial highs with natural voices and " out of the head" soundstage especially with well recorded classical music.. With them i listen to the recording as if i was there not to my head cinema... I disliked any other headphone i ever listen to for too much many reasons to enumerate them ... Most speakers in a living room cannot beat them ...
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@mahgister wrote/quoted:
"Great post! you are right on the spot for me..." Indeed, and skewing the segment of products (from hi-fi to pro) brings with it yet another, big advantage in going "below radar" to acquire some true bargains. |
I understand your point... I will only correct you a bit, i am here for a long time, and the distribution of snobs and idiots or geniuses obey the same Bell-Gauss curves...I estimated the number of snobs to be under 50%...but it is a subjective impression... I then will evaluate the number of snobs in any set as probalitistically less than half... But Porsche club being very different than hot dog eater club, or slightly different than audio forums, i will give you some right to say so...And i will only correct you for 15 to 25 % under your first estimate of 80%...Because audio club are not hot dog eater club nor Porsche club... The number of snobs is higher in Porsche club...Here the population varieties spread is more well mixed...
I am retired and i like to discuss... Dont take it personal ... Welcome here with or without Porsche... Anyway i only own Bugatti aerolithe 1934 models by the way...Porsche are too much trivial... 😊 We dont plan to create a club, we are a way too exclusive club to be named "club"... ...
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Sorry to lump those afflicted with audiophilia into one bucket but it is safe to say it is a high percentage, 80%. Most of the guys at my local Porsche club are elitist snobs too.
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@roxy54 To read, have a good laugh and learn. Thanks for the laugh. It is my opinion and that of many other people. Should read a few of these, https://www.google.com/search?q=why+are+audiophiles+snobs&rlz=1C1GCEB_enUS960US960&oq=Why+are+audiphiles&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgBEAAYDRiABDIGCAAQRRg5MgkIARAAGA0YgAQyCQgCEAAYDRiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCggEEAAYhgMYigUyCggFEAAYhgMYigUyCggGEAAYhgMYigUyCggHEAAYhgMYigXSAQg4MzkxajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
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You are not even wrong.. The problem is putting all people in a category and judging them all in the same way... Pidgeon do that, not human brain... I am an audiophile and i am not in your one sticker category... But perhaps i am an a-holes...But i am not a snob... We need a binary tree here...But i think a graph will do better... 😊
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I am certainly an audiophile then because i always proudly mention the price of my system : 700 bucks...
Only great books compete with Bach in a well designed acoustic room and walking our dogs... Ferrari or Porsche toys are for children in my book,.... Our priorities are not the same it seems...
Great post! you are right on the spot for me...
How do we recognize good sound anway ? Nobody is born with a set of neurons dedicated to audiophile recognition... Most people recognize good sound by price tags... Some design their own speakers, which i could not do; but others like me tuned their room ... There is only one WAY to learn how to listen , it is acoustic control of the room... Reading reviews about high, bass imaging soundstage are of no use at all sorry... And if you are unable to trust your ears and train them you will be insecure with no clue save price tag.. I always mention my price tag audio system costling 700 bucks for the same reason others underlined their many thousand bucks system prrice : childish pride.. I am not immune to it ..😊 But in one case the buyer bought and learn nothing most of the times... In my case i learned a lot... |
@bolong You hit me right in the feels man! Yeah, I was a snobbing no doubt. Regardless, these Ruark speakers look like an unbeatable deal. Furthermore, you can save a lot of cash if you have the knowledge. SEAS drivers are good. Linkwitz knows a lot about crossovers. Take notice. So you can always describe a statement with many adjectives. |
@kokakolia may depend what you value, but the Ruark wouldn't contend overall with KEF 107's for me. I think you're right that KEF is not the right brand example of not snobbery though I believe they still offer some current value contenders based on feedback from listeners I trust. I was getting caught up more in KEF 107 value than brand snobbery discussion. Whether you love them or not, the Ruarks would appear to be a not snob choice. If $600 is beyond your limit, I would call you a cheapskate, and applaud you for it if you're happy with what you have. Though they may be relatively cheap you're doing some snobbing on driver brand and crossover designer influence. |
@yoder Call me a cheapskate, but still think that you’re paying for the KEF name at $1200. I think I have a contender, something nobody wants but it oozes quality. It’s called the Ruark Templar for $600. It has SEAS drivers and a crossover inspired by Peter Linkwitz (the legend). The Stereophile review is glowing. But I can’t bring myself to audition/buy them. Maybe I gotta stop reading the classfields. I am overwhelmed with the sheer number of dirt cheap defunct British brands on offer. |
Jarrah -especially quarter sawn-is excellent for speaker building.It combines medium /high density [840kg/cubic metre] with a short grain structure and is very non-resonant.Also very good for turntable plinths and cartridge bodies [Grado uses it for some of their cartridges. I have built really good sounding speakers out of it.A pair of Meniscus Audio Kairos for example.I agree you are best using MDF or ply for the front and back baffles. Or you can use it for the front,back top and bottom panels [mitre joints] and MDF for the sides-over which you can glue "floating side cheeks".
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If you enjoy your system every time you use it and the music makes you feel good, that is the goal for just about everyone. Artists, mixing engineers, musicians, mastering- every step HAS to be rewarding for the person doing that part of the process, passing it on, making it better. When I talk to these folks, they are in love with their work (most of the time), not unlike an audiophile loves his system (most of the time). When its really good, it transports you....... Brad |
Are Hardwood Speakers Really Bad? There is a way to make hardwood speakers that might be tractable, but the front and back baffles have to be made of MDF or ply. Correct grain orientation of the sold wood panels eliminates contrary seasonal wood movement. As this maker in the video above shows cabinet resonance can be obviated with damping materials. Also, a great many DIY'ers use wood braces. Granted, these are relatively small in cross-section, so wood movement is not much of an issue. I only mention it because sold wood has it's uses in cabinet construction - it's not automatically some bug-a bear. Also, solid wood cabinets are easier to finish than veneered cabinets which can be finicky because of the thinner and thinner veneers being used. If the factory finish is something like poly then the strippers needed can soak through the veneer and loosen the underlying glue. If these refinishing process is not the first rodeo and previous refinishing involved sanding the veneer, then you can get perilously close to sanding through the veneer which is a mini-disaster from a decorative standpoint. Anyone wanting to build a solid wood or mostly solid wood cabinet would also be advised to use a high quality shellac and keep water away from speaker. Most definitely keep alcoholic beverages away from it too, but the advantage of shellac is that it looks great done right and can be easily stripped with alcohol. Also, if possible use vertical grain wood if at all possible - it moves less and stays flatter. Ultimate wood would be vertical grade old growth macrophylla mahogany. Not cheap and not easy to find. Quartersawn Sitka Spruce might be really good but also expensive. Somewhere on Youtube there is a video of a European maker whose solid wood speaker cabinets use resonance and tailored crossovers to good effect. I think he was Polish - can't find him though. |
I had to read the OP a couple times to understand. Congrats on the Bryston's! You compared resale value to B&W. Buying used or 'B' stock like you did is the only way to save yourself the gut punch of retail markup. When I consider how much of my money goes to taxes directly and indirectly then how much goes to retail markup I really wonder what we're going to do when we run out of countries to exploit! First world problems baby. I gather your 'snob appeal' comment comes from B&W having better resale than Bryston speakers. Lets flip it tho'. If B&W started making conventional power amps I doubt they'd carry the same reputation Bryston amps have developed over the years. We all have our own line drawn as to where we decide how much we'll spend for a specific feature or compliment of features. There's a whole forum dedicated to how a loudspeakers 'spins' are more important than how it sounds. There's experts stating the first dac's are audibly indistinguishable (spell check saved me on this one)from anything else newer that wasn't designed flawed. Some people look at me strangely and ask "so, you just sit in a chair and listen?" truly confused, because to many music is a tool to aid us in our chores, jobs, etc, but not an actual hobby in itself. |
In my view, we should be celebrating the efforts of those that have commited the talent and resources to produce cost-no-object examples of the best our industry can offer. There are ultra expensive products produced from a multitude of categories that appeal to those without financial or physical constraints. Having exquite examples of products within a catagory we are passionate about (high end audio) should put smiles on our faces that will take plastic surgery to remove. Most "mortals" operate in a "this" OR "that" universe, where we need to make choices, and priorties need to be set up in accending order. Others want highly competant performance wrapped in a package that appeals esthetically accompanied by a stroke of industrial design genius. Then there are others who have a wherewithall to buy multiple copies of the (ultra expensive) item for each of their homes, and gift a pair (or, two) to friends and family. but still choose to apply a modest, high value competant to their purchase(s) because it is, well, who they are. Mega expense products don’t always get it right. It could be a rigid design philopsy that leaves them short, or just plain gaps in their knowledge base. It is improper to assign less than admirable intent to a designer/manufacturer when we see (sometimes obvious) areas where resources were misapplied -- in our view. As we seen in the past, "flagship" products have introduced "newer thinking" that has found its way into the mainstream. So, those "snob appeal" products do, in fact, provide a level of pragmatic injection for the "rest of us." Lets raise our glasses (and cueing mechanisms?) to acknowledge those who put it all out there to produce the best of the best in our industry. While we’re not all better for it, some of us certainly are. fyi- I was introduced to the concept of floating/balanced crossovers by a promenent speaker manufacturer years ago, and have never looked back. |
I am not sure if it was the CF 4 or an earlier number. I was a professional high-end furniture maker for 15 years and know what I am looking at. The Ebay seller who had the CF listed provided a photo of the interior of the cabinet which showed more clearly than the exterior shot that the cabinet was made of strips of solid, quartersawn white oak about 3-4 inches wide. Some of the gluelines had not been throughly cleaned up of squeeze out. I should have bought it then - $1,300.00 as I recall. I suspect there was a small run of these solid wood boxes as the CF series was not popular anyway with dedicated Klipsch fan because the series did not stick to the "original sound," and building a solid wood box would not have been economical at all. |
Respectfully, I will have to disagree with you on this one. I have owned a pair of Klipsch CF 4 for almost 15 years and I feel pretty certain that none were produced from solid wood of any type, unless of course that was done by an owner as an aftermarket enhancement. The reason that you may have been led to think so is that the cabinets and braces (not including the front baffle and the back wall) are made from .75" plywood. Mine are the version I which was considered to be the best, and just as Roy Delgado wanted them to be. I’ve had plenty of opportunity to study them because I am currently having the crossovers redone and rewiring them as well as refinishing the cabinets. |
I wouldn't try to build a solid wood speaker cabinet - the kit or plan speakers are no doubt engineered from more uniform materials such as mdf or ply. However, I would perhaps use fine woods for corner accents. I do have some very good .75" thick cherry veneered mdf that is calling out for a speaker build. I do remember a solid wood Klipsch speaker from the early 90's that was a Roy Delgado design - it was one the CF series and some of them were made from solid, clear quartersawn oak - a material uniform enough to work with predictably from an acoustic standpoint. The solid wood one was considered the best of the series. When I was looking for these on Ebay years ago I found one of the solid wood ones (I could see that from photo inside the cabinet,) but it was more than I wanted to pay at the time. https://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Speakers/Klipsch/CF-4-EPIC-SERIES/HUG/48564.html |
Hi, y'all....while 'tire-kicking' various 'n sundry and underway.... Have or has anyone 'been experienced' with: Ribbon/amt/Walsh nitwit that I is, I'm curious if there's any IRL feedback re NFR drivers/units, other than the 'customer feedbacks' at their site... They rarely show up on any sell/swap site, TMK... Either they're capable of 'mind melds' that turn one into a NFRzombie, or good 'nuff to be a well-kept secret....both of which is unlikely, given the noted continued existence and general rise in $ (US or CN) plus expansion of offerings... Anyone in the Great White North willing to spill the beans 'n bourbon 'bout this? Curious mind = curious behaviours.....;) Pre-thanx, J |
I think more of brand confidence than snob appeal. Even if buying entry level, one hopes that a brand that makes lauded high end speakers provides the best quality components top to bottom of their offerings. This is no always the case. Yes, room, and tastes, and system integration, but if you're spending $100k on speakers and can't find what you like, I think someone suggested Bose? More seriously stated, we have unprecedented amazing speaker choices available to us now. I think it's more difficult at the low to midfi range, and for me, fortune favors the brave. Buy used and even old. For $1200 my legendary highly engineered KEF 107's are extremely tough to beat with great full range capabilities. My crossovers may have some rust on them, but they're weight would crush any current $1200 speaker crossover. KEF is a brand to be confident in and new products such as LS50 appear to provide good value. Some manufacturers take advantage of their brand, and while they provide nice sounding speakers, they use the cheapest parts and charge the highest price possible on entry level products. It can be scarier to choose a smaller company, an internet direct company, especially one that appears to have few or even one employee, but if you dont want to put all your money into overhead, I think that is the way to go. Is it nice to think that there is a huge team developing the best speaker? Maybe. Even large companies will tout the great single engineer that developed their speaker. I think it's pretty well established that one or two people can design and build a fantastic speaker. The trick is finding the person designing that likes the sound signature you like. For me that is currently the very first home audio design by Daedalus. The best I have heard in my house ever. Caveat, I would not pay the $10-15k these would cost new though I think they're worth it versus other $10k original retail speakers I have heard. If I had that much money, I would wait for a better used set of Daedalus to go up for sale. I used to steer clear of the smaller companies with supposed great speakers. If they're so great, why isn't everyone buying them? The better of these companies are usually in high demand for what they can produce and actually back-ordered. Salk Sound is an example of producing very high quality speakers and cabinets and always back ordered, until now going out of business with no one to take over. I suppose there's concern of long term support, but I've yet to need support from any speaker manufacturer and many like Salk don't make their own drivers. Another one who, like Salk, uses same drivers as manufacturers such as Joseph Audio, is Tyler Acoustics. I've yet to get a pair, but you can sometimes find some used at price of high end drivers, let alone crossovers and cabinets. You'll never find that value with big name brands, and Tyler speakers are highly regarded. Even better than DIY, buy a used set of DIY for less than the cost of the parts after the builder moves on to the next project. Make sure you pay low since resale of DIY is the lowest of the low. I think this is a good example where more value is put on brand confidence than sound quality, but may have nothing to do with snobbery of brand or lack thereof if not a kit. Again the idea, if it's so great, why doesn't everyone DIY? Also, lack of reviews, etc. |
@erik_squires wrote:
+1 --- I remember what the late Peter Snell achieved with cheap drivers in the AII's. It wasn't a case of luck or "one in a million," but rather careful selection, great implementation and design. He spent money and effort where it mattered sonically, not that the AII's were cheap per se, but by today's standard I'd wager they were. I bought my studio installation amps 2nd hand. Their "audiophile" edition aimed at the hifi market, acquired new, sets one back 20x as much compared to what I shelled out per amp, and yet they're essentially similar in construction and overall execution. I heard them head to head, and they are indeed virtually similar sounding. Where they weren't by a smidgen you'd fool yourself believing the hifi edition was necessarily preferable. Believe me, it was splitting hairs. The need for über-built amps from the likes of D'agostino and others would appear to be grown mainly from hideously difficult "highend" speaker loads, passively configured with complex crossovers with a sponge-like ability to suck up power. Talk about bottleneck effect and nurturing a select segment of amp business. A friend of mine uses two bridged studio amps (very similar to ones I use) for a total of 3.6kW per channel into notoriously difficult-to-handle passive speakers. Now there's power in reserve, as there should be for any desired SPL, as well as a sound more freed and less restrained, but it took a whole lot of (quality) power to get there. On the other hand remove the passive crossover for active configuration, as another friend of mine did with similar speakers, and it meant the world in harnessing even higher potential from the associated amps - as well as, in effect, the speakers themselves. It means seeing what you have potentially thrive sonically this way, significantly so. DIY grants the opportunity to realize designs that aren't readily available commercially, if at all - let alone at prices that are within grasp to "mere mortal." Skewing the typical segment of audiophile products can save you a lot of money - requiring an open, unbiased mind, that is. Buying 2nd hand, obviously. Going outboard active is also an element of DIY. Don't indulge in the audiophile market and its mechanisms. Challenge it; go rogue, and let the ears do the talking. |