I've been using a Rega Saturn Mk 2. I recently upgraded my turntable to the Mark Levinson 5105 w/ the Ortofon Quintet Black S. In comparison my CD's are sounding overly bright. Any thoughts on a comparable upgrade to my CD listening? My budget is about $4000-5000, new or used. The Hegel Viking looks interesting. Any recommendation for an upgrade will be appreciated.
I've never heard a Rega Saturn CD player, but my assumption is it does a great job at playing CDs. Get a high quality DAC, and run the Rega into the DAC.....there are dozens of threads here on good DACs at multiple price points. Denafrips Pontus II 12th or 15th, Denafrips Terminator II, Holo Audio May DAC, Weiss DAC, Musical Fidelity
Soix also made a good recommendation: get a Denafrips Pontus II (12th or 15th), and a Denafrips DDC like the Iris or Hermes.........and you've got a great starting point for $2,400 new as well (this is what I am still using)
I have to admit that I agree 1000% with this gentleman. AYON is unquestionably the "BUGATTI of Audio". I didn't mention it for two reasons; - - -COST and not knowing how you might feel about "tube-based audio equipment"
I have owned, borrowed, and auditioned so many pieces of audio gear over the past 70 years that I have almost lost track mentally. But without a doubt, AYON stands out in the component genre with almost no peer at any price. And there are currently several marvelous designs out there that come closer and closer to "reality".. A complete top of the line AYON system paired with the right loudspeakers,. and you could float away to heaven.
UNQUESTIONABLY, there are four or five candidates in this price range that would be exceptional performers. But here's the thing. A CD player, as is the case with a turntable package, can be a reflection of personal listening capabilities and preferences. Different people hear differently. Making an absolute recommendation can be a quite random situation.
I don't know how you went about selecting your new turntable package. Truthfully, the same can apply to this music playback media. Your REGA player has always been considered one of the top picks in your price range, with a very accurate musical playback character. On the opposite side of the fence, I can only state that your choice of cartridges is not one of my favorites. I have owned two, and finally moved to what I feel is a pickup with greater "musical truth and accuracy". That being said, if you have any past experience at all, setting up a turntable arm/cartridge package on various turntable bases, can be technically difficult at best. I can only add that my experience with you pickup, as used with both a PRO-JECT and a TECHNICS turntable, left me with the feeling I have already stated. Compared to both of my CD player's reproduction character, I found the cartridge to be more two dimensional, leaving the sonic impression of a brighter character.
WELL, so much for that. WHAT IS MY RECOMMENDATION - - - - - - - -??
Don't spend the kind of money you are suggesting on a CD player (EVEN AN ESOTERIC) without having done an extensive listening audition.!! To me this piece of audio equipment is such a "subjective" choice, that to do otherwise, could be a financial disaster.
Unfortunately, having access to a "brick and mortar" audio studio can be most problematic for many people. I hope that is not the case for you.
Also, I do not recommend making this type of choice based upon attending audio shows. A TERRIBLE VENUE TO SHOWCASE AND MAKE BUYING DECISIONS (PERIOD.)
One thing I am curious about; - - - - before the new TT and cartridge came into the picture, how did you feel about the sonic character of the REGA? Did it seem overly bright to you (reflecting a high frequency over accentuated reproduction curve?) The REGA should have a well-controlled, flat high frequency response.
The one variable I might mention, that obviously differs between the TT and the CD player could be the interconnect cables you are using in either case.. Also, something to look into might be phono preamp settings and character. Another possible culprit.
I concur with the above- your REGA player should not sound bright. Something else is going on within your set-up. Plenty of excellent Player suggestions as well.
I bought a Schiit Bifrost 2/64 and got the upgrade, then noted that I didn’t have anything that could utilize Schiits touted "Nexus" USB input. I then bought one of their URD transports and a proper cable and VOILA (I’ve never used that word in writing and had to ask my wife how to spell it). For close to 2 grand I’m getting a (Redbook only) seriously great sound out of that combo. Others should pay way more for something else (please) so I can continue to gloat over my purchase of these items. The URD should be serviceable for the foreseeable future and the Bifrost is upgradeable...so hey...gloat gloat...
“… I doubt that a new CD player will sound less bright than your Rega. CD players have a flat frequency response andfrom that standpoint they sound very similar to one another.…
MY TAKE: I strongly disagree with that over- generalization.
@giantsalami has already highlighted his experiences with valves (tubes) in his AYON unit with tubes .
The REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/DAC is another valve cdp option that sounds very different from a solid state spinner. Yes, I bought one too , and it is not anywhere near in audio performance nor presentation to any of the lower range REGAs I auditioned, nor any other solid state units OEM brands,
So here is a précis from the REGA website
” …. Rega’s now legendary head electronics engineer Terry Bateman spent 10 years researching the concept of a CD player using valves in the output amplifier. Valves have been widely used in musical instrument and recording amplification from the 1950s to the present day, therefore it made great sense to develop a valve based CD player to match that of the signal chain found in such applications….
Valve version of our reference Isis CDP
The valve Isis shares the same digital and USB sections as found in the solid-state version, however, the analogue stage is valve based with passive filtering. This stage uses two military specification triple mica 5814A (ECC82/12AU7) triodes being driven by the revolutionary Wolfson WM8741 ultra high performance digital to analogue converter….”
“ … There is a switch on the back of the Valve Isis that’s specific to this player and offers three filter settings. The first (F1) is a linear-phase half-band filter, which doesn’t introduce group-delay distortion but does create pre-ringing -- it’s the closest thing to the filter in the standard Isis. The second (F2) is a minimum-phase apodizing filter, which has approximately the opposite characteristics of the first filter. The third option (F3) is a linear-phase apodizing filter with no group delay and suppressed ringing.
The apodizing filter was specifically designed to minimize pre-ringing in low-sample-rate digital signals. Dr. Peter Craven, whose credits include the Ambisonic soundfield microphone and lossless data compression, invented it in co-development with Meridian. It combats the way that digital filters ring at half their sample rate, something that’s always going to be a problem for CD with its 44.1kHz rate. I have encountered this type of filter in two other players to date: the Copland CDA825 and Meridian’s own 808.3 -- players that sound so different from one another that it’s impossible to assess exactly how beneficial apodizing filters are. However, out of the three players assessed so far, two have been extremely good. So on balance apodizing helps.…”
More technical bits. Rega does something that to my knowledge is unique among CD-player makers: it builds three matched laser mechanisms for every Isis. One is installed in the player, and the other two are stored at the factory. Should the original mechanism develop a fault, the company will always be able to provide precisely the right replacement. That’s taking customer service to a new level.
TAKEAWAY :
option 1: If you choose an all in one unit then this cdp/dac is one option. :(note: it has a USB direct input into its high-end DAC to play digital files) Buying new at $13K plus taxes may hit a resistance based on price, but a pre-owned unit at a discounted price tag, may sooth the budget woes
option 2: Think high-end stand-alone DAC or streamer / DAC (with quality cables) and use your existing cdp as a transport . I also have a MOON 280D MiND2 player for hi-rez digital files playback.
I doubt that a new CD player will sound less bright than your Rega. CD players have a flat frequency response and from that standpoint they sound very similar to one another.
I think what you are hearing is a rolled-off high frequency response from your new Ortofon cartridge. It is making your CD player sound bright by comparison. You don't say which presentation you prefer but if you like the less bright sound of your turntable then getting an equalizer to put between your CD player and your preamp may be a better answer.
FWIW, I'm running a HANA SL cartridge and it sounds strikingly similar to my digital rigs. The freqency response of the HANA is very flat. I have a couple DACs, a couple of transports, a CD player, and an SACD player and they have slight differences but none of them sounds brighter than the other.
It would be intersting to try the HANA and see if that sounds more like your CD player. Depending on the rest of your system the diminished high frequencies you are hearing from your ML/Ortofon combo may be preferable in which case you might want to reevaluate your speakers.
After buying used Marantz, Bryston, Esoteric, and T+A spinners and always having problems, I bought a new Ayon player and took advantage of the zero percent financing. Best purchase ever. A fantastic unit that has a tubed preamp section. I sold my Primaluna Pre and never looked back. Highly recommended.
I bought a 'factory reconditioned' new Hegel Mohician - right from the start, the CD tray would not load the CD, have to turn the unit off just as the drawer closes to get it to load. Then playback started skipping, have to hit forward and back several times, seems the lubricaton on the laser rails it lacking.
A similar issue with a fellow audiogoner with his Viking, he sent it to be serviced twice and nothing changed. And my factory re-conditioned would not play from the get go. My take away is Hegel has an lubrication issue with their players, (hoping it just a lubricate the rails issue), but the arrangement with service here in the states is poor.
All that being said, the player sounds fantastic, just color me disappointed with their service.
Just my two cents. I have owned three ModWright CD/SACD players. Sony 999es, Sony 5400 and the Marantz 8005. The Marantz was my favorite. As others have said, I think the Marantz Ruby would probably be a contender or a used Marantz SA-10. That being said the Teac VRDS-701 peaked my interest and has received positive feedback. I went a different route in my current player the Esoteric K-03XD. Of course it beat out the Marantz offerings and should for the cost difference. If you can, audition the Teac VRDS-701 before deciding.
About a month ago I replaced my Audiolab CDT 6000 with a Shanling ET3 (MSRP $729) it's unbelievable but adding a VeraFI Snubway ($295) was even more incredible/. the 6000 is for sale cheap
Do not buy a typical cd player with a slot or a drawer.......I bought a TOP Loader and now I can put disc stabilizers on top of the CD and then drop the metal weight on top of the stabilizing disc which is on top of the CD....Your whole system will sound more musical....detailed but not harsh....Top loader...you'll never go back, once you experience this phenomenon............
As a long time user of cd players and someone who does not care for pc audio or streaming I would advise you to choose a player from brands that are still making and service them. Than, I would look for established brands that are known for making good digital products. So, Accuphase,Ayre Burmester,Dcs, Esoteric, Meridian, Metronome.would be on my list. Unfortunately, only the Ayre is made in the Us and others cost much more than in Europe or In Asia, so the sh is probably the best option
Last fall I paid $4200 for a clean, hardly used Marantz SA-10 cd,... player from TMR.
It has a variety of setting adjustment options that might come in handy depending upon the system it is paired with, the preferences of the user, and the hearing acuity of that user. Just another idea. Good luck in your search.
I have the Ayre_CX-7eMP. When launched, it was a "Class A" CD player (Stereophile magazine). I love it and have no need for a separates (DAC + Transport).
Prior to a purchase, a quick call to Ayre will confirm the cost of an upgrade to the "MP" version, including a full bench-test. At that point you know what it would take to have an up-to-date, reliable, and serviceable unit (at a pretty low cost).
Mine is not for sale, and I am not connected with the above mentioned offer.
I have an Audiolab CDT6000 (cheap) and a Denafrips Pontus ll and am very happy. You could also get the CDT7000 or CDT9000 and still stay under your limit.
my suggestion is to look at the teac CD transport, it uses the VRDS clamping system which is the best in the world It's about $3,000 US and then you could take a look at the Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC it sells for $4,500 US and it's gone up against dacs 2 and 3 times the price and beaten them, one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said that the 10th anniversary DAC was just as analog sounding, on that review I bought it and I totally agree one of the best DACS I've had in my system, and the other nice thing is that they give you a 30-day trial. if you don't like it you can send it back and get your money back, I didn't bother.
... there is certainly some degree of loss or error that happens when moving the data from CD to computer.
Something is wrong with your setup if that’s true. You should be able to get bit perfect copies of any CD, with the exception of those that have been damaged. You can verify that for yourself by running a binary comparison, such as using the "fc" command in Windows.
Often, you can get pretty clean copies even from a damaged CD.
I’ve been using a McIntosh MVP-871 CD/SACD/DVD player that’s about 14 years old and has a built in DAC. Fortunately, it has digital outputs for sound so I connected it via a glass optical cable to my new MX-123 which has an modern internal DAC. Without question, sound quality was significantly improved. So, if your player has digital out capability, I’d try connecting either through an external DAC or connecting to your preamp digitally if it has a decent built in DAC. You might find it unnecessary to replace the player!
The most natural sounding CD player I have heard is the Ayre CX-8. A bit above your stated budget new, but someone with audiophilia nervosa may put one on the used market…
I've done that and compared, and there is certainly some degree of loss or error that happens when moving the data from CD to computer. The CD's still sound best. Same DAC, high end computer, etc. I personally went backwards from high-end computer/hard-wired directly to DAC to using CD's on a McIntosh MCT500.
Look for a Oppo 2005 Modwright modded player or a Sony 5400 Modwright either with the Signature Truth mods. It would have to be a used one now as Dan Wright is no longer doing the CD player mods. He is still fixing any of his modded players if needed. The sound is excellent in all ways and there are those of us who have done some extra things to bump the SQ up even more. I've had Modwright Sony players since about 2010. the ones I mentioned are the top of the line SQ wise. If you're patient, one will come up a few times a year. Either will be used at about $2700-$3700. You can't do better in your price range for SQ.
almost any moderately priced DAC will outperform the DAC in a CD player. The DAC is the heart of the digital system so there is room for much research and choice. I highly recommend a transport plus DAC.
@jayctoyRight on. I have had my Marantz SA.-KI Ruby SACD player since very soon after they were available for purchase. Digital accuracy but with a detailed yet musical rightness. In other words no digital glare due to upper midrange lower treble emphasis. Sounds as close to the sonic signature of good vinyl as I have yet heard from any digital source. It mates very well with Cardas Audio interconnects.
I love my Meridians. They’ve depreciated a lot (fell out of vouge especially since the MQA thing), and you can get an 808v5 or v6 in you budget. They’re definitely not bright, and can hang with a good vinyl setup. As an added bonus they have digital inputs and can be used as a DAC. Their preamp functionality is pretty good, too.
I’d use the Rega as a transport and get a Denafrips Hermes DDC and run i2S from it into a Denafrips Pontus 15th DAC — both would only set you back $3200 and be a big improvement in the direction you’re looking to go. Just one idea, and best of luck.
To answer a few questions, I am running my Rega Saturn stock; no external DAC, no special laser mats or fuses. I am open to an external DAC and other add-ons if they yield a substantial improvement. I'm using JPS cables.
Are you looking for a regular CD player, or would you be open to adding an external DAC? In that case you would continue using your Rega as a transport, feeding the DAC with a digital cable.
My suggestion is to do what I did - rip all of your CDs and put the files (in FLAC of course) on a network drive that can be accessed via a streaming unit. I still have a CD player in one system but haven't used it in ages - I can audition material I may like on line from a streaming service or on my computer to see if I like it enough to acquire and rip it. Of course I now have c. 4000 CDs in storage because I can't bring myself to toss them and selling would be a painful and long process......
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