Speedy,
I am in total agreement with you. I have a "W" and absolutely love it. Lifeless?????? Far from it!! Also, it mates extremely well with my Basis/Vector combo and is very musical to my ears through my Klipschorns.
I think I'll pass on a non-warrantied Orpheus. Just too much money to take the chance IMO. When the time comes, I'll trade in my Temper (reluctantly) and stick with the folks I purchased it from initially. Besides, they'll come to my house and set it up for me. Not that I can't do it myself but I'm a tad lazy and also enjoy spinning records with anyone willing to join me, even if I'm paying for the privilege ;) |
This is a thread that I did not want to see come back,as I feel I was an instigator of bad judjement/feelings,but amybe I can aid,with some decent info.
The trade on the Orpheus,from a Temper is 2550.There is a guy(Nsgarsh knows how to get in touch with him,as I have no web info here)who sells grey market Orpheus for 2700 dollars.He is supposedly very reputable,but you have NO warrantee.It is your decision to go this route.
The Temper-V,which I own(a good friend has a Graham Phantom/Orpheus)can stand up to the Orpheus(it is not "lifeless",to me)but is "clearly", slightly, bettered in almost ALL meaningful parameters.A big deal,if you have a very hi res set-up.
I really believe the Titan(another pal has one)is a great design,and I have heard it TONS of times on a huge assortment of wonderful vinyl.
YET,the number of choices are SO,SO good(UNI/XV1-S/Colibri/Allaerts/Air Tight etc)that to me,it should come down to what is the best match to your arm,AND what is the best financial arrangement one can make.
Best to all! |
Thanks for the emails everyone. Very much appreciated!
- Gary |
I had an Orpheus in my system for about three weeks (loan from a friend), and I've heard it in two other systems I know very well. In all of these systems, this is a terrific cartridge. It sounds much more lively and engaging than the Temper W (a cartridge I do not really like because it sounds a touch lifeless).
As far as tonal balance, it sounds a bit more midrange prominent than my Titan, and perhaps has a bit less "air" or openness on top than the Titan, but, overall, they both are great sounding cartridges. |
Wow! This thread really took off since I was here last.
I'm thinking of finally upgrading from my Temper W to the Orpheus but I deleted the email with the price list I was receiving from someone around here. I remember the Orpheus was selling for around $2700ish? Is my memory correct? Is this a reliable souce? Warranty included? My retailer wants $5k or $2500 with trade-in. BIG difference!
Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!
Thanks. |
Thanks Dan_ed and Doug - here are manufacturer's specs for the Orpheus. Relatives arriving so more later...
Weight: 9 g
Dynamic compliance: 13 x 10 to the minus 6cm/dyne
Stylus: Ogura PA (3 x 30 µm) solid diamond
Output voltage: 0.48mV (3.54cm/second, 1 KHz)
Internal impedance: 2.5 ohms
Frequency response: 10Hz - 20Hz +1.5dB 20kHz - 40 kHz + 2dB
Channel separation: > 30 dB, 200Hz - 1 kHz
Channel balance: < 0.5dB, 1 kHz
Best wishes for a happy Christmas season,
Tim
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I will humbly assert my title is Zen Grasshopper as I cannot yet pluck the pebble. :)
Really good questions, Tim. I've been fortunate to receive several lessons from Doug and Paul in the art of sound characterizations. I also listen for what Doug refers to. I'm getting little snap-shots of what Paul listens for but I'm still not quite in tune. And what makes it worse is that Paul comes in from another room pointing out what is wrong! BTW, I noticed you have the Orpheus as well as Andrew. Can you post the cartridge weight and compliance just for reference?
This morning I'm finding that VTA did need to go up about 1/2 a turn. I believe this is in keeping with the SRA theory after more VTF is applied. Anyway, that's what it took to get back that hollow shimmer of the cymbals.
I feel like we should move all of this to another thread, but since Andrew started it . . . |
Sometimes the vocabulary we use strikes me as chunkier than the product of the fine grained adjustments it attempts to describe. Very true. Trying to express these experiences in words is quite challenging. From the above, I interpret 'a)' (integration of fundamental and harmonics) as the absence or lessening of what I call tonal 'smearing'. To me this is as much a temporal issue as it is anything, but I'd love for anyone to elaborate further. Several hundred messages ago in this thread we mentioned the piccolo solo in the third movement of Tchaikovski's 4th - many notes in a short span of time. When the leading edges bump into the trailing edges, such that notes are less tonally individuated, I call this 'smearing'. A smeared single note is slightly 'de-focused' tonally, it is less 'compact' as if its harmonics slather outside proper temporal boundaries. Correlating back to reality, better 'tonal focus' means homing in on the setup sweet spot. Is this at all close to what you're talking about?? EXACTLY RIGHT! Paul actually uses the word "smearing". I use the phrase "temporal integration". We're talking about the same thing and so are you. The attack of resin on string, the vibration of the string, the reverb in the body: all must occur with timing that's realistic relative to each other. Otherwise it doesn't sound like a violin. Wrt to 'b)', I think I grasp listening for amplitude, but help me out with listening for 'quickest rise/fall time'. More words (heh) or an example? Without knowing better, I'd think this was ultimately the same thing as 'a)' put differently, but that could just mean I'm confused. Well, it is the same thing in different words, and since you hear (a) as I do perhaps that's what you should listen for. I mentioned (b) largely to help those who hear more like Paul than me. This is Paul's thing more than mine, but one example is that, while visiting Cello, he was able to adjust arm height by the feel of the air coming from the woofers, without LISTENING at all. When each pulse had maximum intensity and fastest slope, on both ends, he knew VTA/SRA was right. I "think" the easiest way to explain this is SRA theory. The playback stylus can only trace a waveform accurately if its SRA matches that of the cutting stylus. If SRA is way off, the stylus would "slide" onto and off of a modulation more gradually than it should. This would lengthen and smooth both leading and trailing edge transients, artificially raise the noise floor and thus reduce peak amplitudes relative to that floor. I'm not claiming that's what actually happens, SRA theory is controversial, but that's what it sounds like. So, is this all too neurotic? Only if we let it be. It's really become just second nature. I don't fret about whether VTA/SRA is right, I adjust only if and when I notice that it's not. Of course, becoming more sensitized does mean you notice more often. ;-) I'll jump up from the dinner table to adjust arm height on a record we haven't played before, just because my ears have learned which way to go and about how far. It's mostly a matter of practice, but the practicing isn't unpleasant and it doesn't stop my toes from tapping. We only do it because it's easier to enjoy the music with good timing than be annoyed by inaccurate timing and smearing. And our infamous yellow stickies are a HUGE help. Trying to find the right spot from scratch on every play of every LP WOULD be insane. Raul or Dan will tell you I have arm height dialed in on familiar LP's before the platter gets up to speed. Record keeping makes the whole thing a virtual no-brainer on a daily basis. |
Dan_Ed wrote: I don't know any other way to say it, but AS is a necessary evil that must be kept to a minimum. What I have found is that by going into the same range with vtf that Andrew posted has greatly reduced the propensity for my setup to mis-track. Doug and I have discussed this effect in the past but I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical. Well, I'm a true believer now! I've replaced the 3.9 gram AS weight with what amounts to just under 1 gram with no mis-tracking on any of the LP's I own that used to cause me to bump up the AS. The increase in dynamics and resolution has my jaw on the floor! BIG SMILEY FACE! Your post that SirSpeedy has already admired is worthy of a second admiration. - listen to hear what the cartridge wants - balance the nimbleness of being on the edge of mistracking with the authority of more downforce - use just enough AS to prevent mistracking Brilliantly and simply expressed. We have a Zen master. :-) |
You're right that VTF must be absolutely spot-on before you can truly optimize VTA/SRA. Doing that by ear requires listening for:
a) the integration or timing of fundamentals vs. harmonics (what Frank Schroeder and I hear) or,
b) the quickest rise/fall times and greatest amplitudes of individual notes, especially bass notes (what Paul hears). One of my New Year's resolutions may be to wonder less if I'm a few angels shy of a pin full and wonder more at the music itself. Those might not be mutually exclusive activities, but its not New Years yet. So maybe Doug and others can elaborate on what/how one listens when making small changes. Sometimes the vocabulary we use strikes me as chunkier than the product of the fine grained adjustments it attempts to describe. I'm fascinated as much by the assessment part of the process as the analytics and rationales. From the above, I interpret 'a)' (integration of fundamental and harmonics) as the absence or lessening of what I call tonal 'smearing'. To me this is as much a temporal issue as it is anything, but I'd love for anyone to elaborate further. Several hundred messages ago in this thread we mentioned the piccolo solo in the third movement of Tchaikovski's 4th - many notes in a short span of time. When the leading edges bump into the trailing edges, such that notes are less tonally individuated, I call this 'smearing'. A smeared single note is slightly 'de-focused' tonally, it is less 'compact' as if its harmonics slather outside proper temporal boundaries. Correlating back to reality, better 'tonal focus' means homing in on the setup sweet spot. Is this at all close to what you're talking about?? Wrt to 'b)', I think I grasp listening for amplitude, but help me out with listening for 'quickest rise/fall time'. More words (heh) or an example? Without knowing better, I'd think this was ultimately the same thing as 'a)' put differently, but that could just mean I'm confused. Apologies if my phenomenological bent goes against the grain of the thread - just more universal struggle for understanding what is sometimes tough to put into words. Betwixt the turn of the dial, the tenth of the degree, and the ear is where I'm working. How, or to what, do you listen for the effect of the changes you're making? Ho, ho, ho, Tim |
Want a good laugh?I have been experimenting with Pre/phono/table connections to "balanced/symetrical/regenerated A/C",vs other alternatives.I have three dedicated lines,and a new,high quality circuit breaker box.Also,I live in the suberbs,and usually have very good power.The difference with the balanced/symetrical regenerative power is ASTOUNDING!!
If you thought you had a slightly hardened sound,or slight grain/haze,or whatever,you would be shocked at where A/C technology is,now.
What got me started,was buying a PS-Audio P-500,for front end stuff(digital takes a nice bump up,too).This was an eye opener.I previously tried a load of stuff,settling on Ultimate Outlets.Sadly I went through two different P-500's which just were NOT made as well as the Exact Power stuff.The P-500 failed in three weeks,with a secod unit lasting six days.There is absolutely nothing wrong with my lines,but I did find a small resistor loose,in the second unit's bag.Hence,I started to do some serious research and wound up with the new Exact Power "Ultra Pure" unit.It is superb,but I am now seriously considering the EP-15a to go along with it and run my entire set-up in regenerated symetrical power.Think "set" sound,but full range.Best to all,and your families during this new year!
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Andrew, I owe you big time! Your recent post regarding vtf has prodded me to re-examine my settings. The results are very impressive and have opened up a whole new side of my tonearm/cartridge combination.
I've spent the last day and a half listening to the changes with vtf at .1 gram increments, from about 1.92 to 1.99. The veil really began to lift at 1.95. I believe I've settled around 1.96-.98. But wait! There's more!
I don't know any other way to say it, but AS is a necessary evil that must be kept to a minimum. What I have found is that by going into the same range with vtf that Andrew posted has greatly reduced the propensity for my setup to mis-track. Doug and I have discussed this effect in the past but I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical. Well, I'm a true believer now! I've replaced the 3.9 gram AS weight with what amounts to just under 1 gram with no mis-tracking on any of the LP's I own that used to cause me to bump up the AS. The increase in dynamics and resolution has my jaw on the floor! |
Thanks for the link, Neil. That was very enjoyable! Speedy, my problem is that my "cartridge-eese" is still underdeveloped. :) |
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"Trying to listen,and let the cart tell me what it wants"....Dan a SUPERB point,and one all serious hobbyists should take into account.
Best |
Hi all,
I would say that we all seem to be moving in the same direction regarding vtf. As Doug mentioned the XV-1s is a heavy cartridge at 12.6 grams with a compliance of 10. I don't know exactly how that compares with the Orpheus, but it is heaver and lower compliant than the Trannys I could find in the cartridge database. I broke in the cartridge much like Neil advises, up around 2.5 grams, for the first hundred hours or so. After that I tried Thom Mackris' preferred setting of around 1.87, but have since settled in around 1.92. Could be that mile high thing at work in Denver. However, I am still dialing this parameter in and could end up higher. I'm trying to listen and let the cartridge tell me what it wants. All in all, it does sound like what Andrew is reporting.
This theory of running close to the edge (great song, btw) sits well with me also. Trying to balance the nimble sound achieved with the cart just off mis-tracking with the added authority of extra vtf. It's very much like trying to control a helicopter. If you've ever studied control theory then you've probably heard that the helicopter is a system that is always on the edge of stability, and I think we have a similar system with arms and cartridges. Too much control and the music becomes dull, too little and we crash in the grooves potentially damaging the record.
The o-rings work great for quick vtf tweaks. With the weight of the XV-1s the tiny ones alone don't work for AS, but I do think they work for a tweak here as well. Take about twice what Doug uses for the same change. The metal AS weight that comes with the Triplanar is maybe 2-3 mm up the shaft. Just far enough to allow a little buzzing with the HFNRR test track, (#6 I think). If I hear a little break up I throw on a couple of the o-rings for that LP. I have to believe that the compliance has a similar effect on the AS settings. I'll have to start logging some of this information when I tweak thinks so we can compare notes.
No, I'm not quite to the point of using sticky notes. :)
Merry Christmas to all! |
Doug's and Andrew's comments highlight my reason for advising folks to break in their cartridges slightly above (like .2 or .25 gms above) the high end of the specified VTF range:
That way the suspension will be flexed enough so you can be sure it will exhibit a stable coefficient of elasticity just beyond the top of the normal VTF range. If you don't do this, and you try to find the VTF "sweet spot" somewhere near max. VTF, you will have a hard time dialing it in.
. |
Bon giorno! I wonder if the optimum range one uses above the mistracking point also has to do with the compliance of the cartridge. The Orpheus has a lower compliance than most and it would seem correct to be on the higher end of the range. That theory makes excellent sense, to me anyway. The weight of the cartridge probably also enters into it. Dan_Ed doesn't need to substitute O-rings for the antiskate weight on his TriPlanar, because his hulking behomoth of an XV-1S squashes the scales at 12g or so. His sweet spot might also be farther above the mistracking point. (Dan?) Lighter/more compliant cartridges probably have a smallish sweet spot centered close to the mistracking point. Heavier/less compliant cartridges probably have a larger sweet spot centered farther above the mistracking point. Great speculation. We probably just learned something. Ciao, Doug |
Sirspeedy,
I'll re-look at VTA but so far, the 1.5 degrees seems to be working well prior to the change in VTF. But as I said, I'll take another listen.
doug,
thanks for confirming my findings. I wonder if the optimum range one uses above the mistracking point also has to do with the compliance of the cartridge. The Orpheus has a lower compliance than most and it would seem correct to be on the higher end of the range. I'll begin to experiment around 1.97g. I basically went directly from 1,92 to 1,97.
Happy Holidays to all. I'm presently in milan, Italy on business and have been enjoying some nice food and wine! i'll have to restart my diet on the 1st!
Nsgarch,
thanks for your help. Have not heard back from you in a while.
Andrew |
Thanks for the response,Doug.I truly,was not "fishing" for one,and you demonstrate your "uniqueness",by responding.As far as I am concerned,there will ONLY be harmonic discourse,in the future.
I just could not have let much time go by,without making some kind of gesture.Sure,you surprised me,with the E-mail(actually,I was shocked),but there was a disingenuousness,on my part,to bring it on.I'd be happy to buy you(and Paul) a nice "cheap" glass of wine,should you attend the Stereophile show,in May.
I DO "SO" like to be a bit provacotive,in some posts,but PLEASE,don't anyone ever take me SO,SO,SO seriously!!!I am simply a hobbyist/music lover,like you and many others.Never any malice,in my posts!!Never long grudges,either! :-)
Best!
BTW---Nsgarsh....You are a "mensch"! |
Doug, you and Andrew have Triplanar tonearms, so you can have perfect SRA at all times no matter the record thickness or the engineering preferences of the lathe operator. In any case, even .2gms wouldn't make enough of a difference with most of the top cartridges which are low(ish) compliance (except for vdH).
. |
Thank you, SirSpeedy.
Best wishes for the holidays and the new year,
Doug
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Nsgarch,
Your suggestion to use small VTF adjustments as a proxy for fine-tuning VTA/SRA would indeed have the effect you described. Unfortunately, VTF fine-tuning does more than center the coils in the magnetic field. A fairly large increase like .2g would cause other effects that might fairly swamp the VTA/SRA change.
As Andrew described and I affirmed, a change of .05g or even .02g can have a significant impact on sonics. These tiny changes barely effect the coils/magnets relationship, yet if we're near the cartridge's VTF sweet spot they have significant sonic effects. Why?
I believe the reason has to do with a kind of mechanical damping. Increases in VTF increase pressure between the suspension and cantilever, by definition. Once we have sufficient downforce to assure clean tracking, additional pressures very quickly become detrimental. HF response is dulled, micro-dynamic shadings are lost, the music goes dull, drab, lifeless - in a word, overdamped.
Our anti-skating experiments (described on other threads) support this understanding. Anti-skating, like VTF, increases pressure between suspension and cantilever. Using more than necessary to maintain clean tracking sounds exactly like using too much VTF. HF response is dulled, micro-dynamic shadings are lost, the music goes dull, drab and lifeless - in a word, overdamped.
For the sufficiently obsessed (Andrew and I know who we are!) increasing VTF as a proxy for adjusting VTA/SRA would produce unacceptable side effects. Of course Raul did observe that Paul and I play our rig right on the edge. He was certainly right about that. ;-)
Doug |
Andrew,
Your increase in VTF (1.92 to 1.97) had sonic effects that would be similar on our cartridge, or maybe any cartridge. A slight increase in overall heft, sturdier bass, less edginess in highs. Those are fairly normal effects when you move from near the mistracking point to very slightly higher.
A spot some few hundredths of a gram above the mistracking point is the sweet spot for every LOMC we've used. On a UNIverse the spot is about .02-.04g above the mistracking point. Apparently on an Orpheus it's about .05g above the mistracking point. Different suspensions, different results, but not by very much.
We're obviously both splitting hairs to maximize the performance of extraordinarily sensitive and responsive cartridges. As Raul observed during his visit here, we play right on the edge. Our bass was a touch light at one point so I replaced a thick O-ring with a thin one, increasing VTF by about .02g. He was fairly amazed at the audible improvement from such a tiny adjustment. This degree of nuttiness is the only way to get the most from these cartridges, at least in our experience.
BTW, don't think that just because it sounds perfect at 1.97g today that it will do so forever. That kind of stability will probably never happen. Weather will change it. Amount of use or lack thereof will change it. We often find ourselves reducing VTF by .02-.03g after the cartridge warms up from playing several sides. The sweet spot is always a moving target.
You're right that VTF must be absolutely spot-on before you can truly optimize VTA/SRA. Doing that by ear requires listening for:
a) the integration or timing of fundamentals vs. harmonics (what Frank Schroeder and I hear) or,
b) the quickest rise/fall times and greatest amplitudes of individual notes, especially bass notes (what Paul hears).
Best,
Doug |
Speedy, the 7 or so people I've assisted in following my procedure for establishing zero SRA, have then set their stylus rake angle to a nominal 1.5 degrees (+/_ .20 degree) and found it to yield the best sonics achievable simply using measuring tools and mechanical adjustments. It is possible to refine the SRA (and the sonics) further on a record-by-record basis, the way Doug likes to do, however that requires you have a tonearm that permits easy SRA/VTA adjustments on-the-fly.
I don't have a tonearm that allows me that luxury-cum-obsession, however, it is possible to achieve almost the same results (as adjusting VTA on-the-fly) by increasing/decreasing VTF slightly:
If one normally runs their MC cartridge at the high end of the recommended VTF range say 2gms, then adding or subtracting 0.2 gms won't substantially alter the alignment of the coils in the flux field, but it will change the SRA by a tenth of a degree or more, for high compliance cartridges like van den Huls, somewhat less for Transfiguration, Dynavector, ZYX and other low-to-med compliance designs.
. |
Andrew,I posted this on Raul's Essential thread,but this is a more appropriate place.Could you report back at some time,as to where you finally wind up setting VTA?I am very close to getting my Orpheus,and have not visited my friend,who has one,in a while.
I have no other agenda,other than getting some good input.
Also,I want to take this time to appologize to Doug(and Paul),"for a second time,sadly."I definitley came across as disingenuous,in some of my posts,here.I,truly,did not mean to be mean spirited,but can understand why Doug got ticked off.
It is clear that many of you guys are very decent folks,and based upon Raul's comments,I am ashamed for some of my provocative remarks,made awhile ago.They were actually designed(stupidly) to get as much input about the Orpheus,as possible,and I "really" thought some of you guys kind of knew me already,and would not get so peeved.I was wrong!My real life audio pal's are worse,but we all know eachother for many years,and kind of like all the discourse and banter that follows our listening sessions.Sorry!
I absolutely do not expect any response here!!!!Also,any comments,made by me,after realizing I had ticked off a kindly poster,were made in reflexive mode,as I was a bit surprised(and a bit hurt)Sorry #2!!
This post is,in reality, a "selfish" one,as it is designed to make me feel better,as I don't hold grudges,for long,but am sensitive to other's felings.Like I have stated before...the web-world does not easily show us others' feelings,and it is so easy to be emboldened,to say dumb stuff.I do it ALOT! |
One more thing I forgot to mention. Soundstaging emroved greatly with the higher VTF.
Andrew |
I wanted to provide some feedback in optimizing my Orpheus set up.
I have tried to further optimize the VTF so far. Recall, I have been running the Orpheus VTF at 1.92g. I suspected this could have been contributing to a slight leaness and brightness. I went up to 1.97 g based on the suggestions of Bc3. This improved things in all ways.
First, the leaness disappeared to a very large extent. The sound became much fuller and smoother without sacrificing detail or upper end extension. In fact, it is more detailed and extended. Most importantly, it has a lot deeper and tighter bass, it now has a very full, smooth and natural mid and treble and has more power and dynamics.
I think this is a lot more what a Tranny is supposed to sound like and I'm enjoying the system even more.
I'll try experimenting with the Boston Mat. I've been told that this tends to brightness. I suspect removing this will make the sound even more natural, romantic but yet detailed and neutral.
Lastly, I'll try some different settings with the VTA. I'm using ~1.3 degrees based on the method proposed by Nsgarch. Before optimizing the VTF, I thought reducing the SRA muddied the bass a bit although it did reduce, but not eliminate, the leaness and brightness. I think the VTF made a much larger difference.
I'm now enjoying a very transparent, detailed, open and clear sound but with very good natural timbre. I think this cartridge really bridges these objectives very well.
Andrew
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Neil,
I did this in Stereo. If I had a mono switch I would not use it for the reasons Doug mentioned. This should only work if using a mono record in Stereo preamp operation. It may not be perfect but it did get me close. |
Andrew,
Glad to hear the ole' trial and error is working for you too! Larry found the Wally buried beneath some old record sleeves and used pads from his cleaning brushes, but now I guess you don't need it. :-)
I'll have to try a mono LP for azimuth adjustment again. Whenever I've felt like fiddling with it I've just used whatever was on the table at the time, which is likely to be stereo (around here anyway). If nothing else I can verify what I've done, and if it's easier I'm all for it!
Nsgarch,
I don't have a mono/stereo switch either, but if I did setting it to mono would make azimuth adjustment impossible. Summing the info from both channels would negate any L/R adjustments made to the stylus. Azimuth is about reducing crosstalk, whereas a mono switch forces 100% crosstalk. |
Doesn't matter for me, Neal, as I don't have a mono switch. I think for those more experienced at this the desire to use a mono recording is not as great. My experience is much like Andrew's, I have more confidence in the adjustments I make when using a mono recording. YMMV. |
I have a question about this mono-LP/azimuth adjusting technique:
Do you set the preamp's mono/stereo selector switch to 'mono', or do you leave it on 'stereo' when making your adjustments?
. |
Doug, Dan,
Here are some comments with respect to azimuth adjustment that were discussed earlier in the recent past of this thread.
I finally got around t ocleaning some more of my calssical records and have been now playing some mono recordings. Using these it is much much easier to adjust azimuth. With samll changes I can get the image very centered in the middle.
Now I know what you mean. It is very difficult with Stereo recordings but relatively it's a cinch with mono's. I don't think I'll need to invest in the Wally analog shop.
What a great hobby. Don't get this level of learning satisfaction with cd's.
Andrew |
Tim, you're right that was my point. |
While none of us have the same room, few of us have the same system, and many of us don't even have the same records, I think there is merit in review descriptions sufficient to allow a reader to reproduce the music the reviewer heard. And its not much of stretch to take that same perspective to equipment setup and use.
Generally, more information is more useful and less is less. Imo, the bare minimum for a review is reference to the records - preferably to the tracks - used as the basis of a description. I know I try to get as close to denoting what I hear ("the opening triangle in the Allegro... blah blah blah") so my reader can at least get to the same sound even if he doesn't have the same equipment. You don't want to over do it, but its very helpful (for me anyway) to cross check my ears and my system with what someone else hears and the more information you give me so I can do that, the better.
So sure - even if I don't own a $100k Kielbasa (or whatever is Mikey's table), I would like to know where he ended up with load or VTA so I can gauge the state of the O in my own system. No different a question for him than it is for any other owner or longer term user. Geeky - ok, call it geeky, but read most of the threads here - folks invested in multi-$k gear value info about the details.
Admittedly few readers will have the component they are reading about, so a majority of the reviewer's audience may not care about setup details. Until, of course, they become owners. Imo it is not a complete waste when a review lacks information about product setup and use, but a review can be so much better when the writer includes it. That info takes the writer out of the realm of prosaist into the realm of product user. Maybe that was Neal's point.
Cheers,
Tim
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Does Anyone know the song by the Kinks "Stop Your Sobbing" The Pretenders covered it in 78
It is Time for you to stop all your sobbing It is time for you to Laugh instead of crying and keep on smiling whoa oh oh. There one thing you gotta know to make your dreams come true. You gotta stop your sobbing now Stop stop Stop stop
Gotta stop your sobbing now. Stop stop Stop Stop your sobbing! Your Sobbing!
As best as I recall
Listening to the music that lives in my soul.
regards
Groovey |
Neil,hope you know I was NOT referring to any of your well intended E-mails.I had received an E-mail from a poster who did not like my candid, albeit "baiting",attitudes,regarding the "superb"(I knew it/he actually didn't)Orpheus.My intent got the "debate I was looking for",but some folks are so "ego driven,and self centered",that they only perceive this as an attack(which it was not).Of course there is always the buddy system at play,which could instigate things,a bit,but that's life.
I took a while to perculate,but after being "threatened to be outed as a liar,with intentions of disrupting posts,on purpose",I'm not about to be bullied off these threads.Though I have lost a significant desire to post,as a consequence.
To the party(who I actually liked,prior to Prissy outburst)feel free to be the HP of the web,which you so clearly identify with.I am content to hear my music.
As to the Fremer review,the criticism,to me,comes off as a bunch of "GEEKS" at a Star Wars convention.C'mon,anyone wanting to know actual tracking force(he gave parameters,and differing turntable use too,btw,as well as overall good,reliable input,which WAS accurate "to the nines" regarding performance over the Temper series).Of course some may have wanted to know what he had his "Phazer" set on for loading,etc,but,anyone can come up with that info on his/her own.Like actually "touching" one's own set-up,and NOT relying on others(know -it -alls excluded)to be a guage of what you like.I don't know any hobbyist who admits(in his hear of hearts)that what he owns,assuming it is good,is not his real preferrence.
Fremer is being bashed unfairly,IMO,and wrote a darn good overall piece.Sorry if he did not give the actual "azimuth angle of choice",but what do I know?
Fairwell! |
It has taken me about 2 weeks to review the posts in this thread. While I do not have the deep pockets to get a ticket to the show, I must say I have learned alot about technical issues as well as about the contributers to the forum by carefully reading this thread.
Now I have as many more questions as you have opinons. I will open a few threads soon to ask for your opinions on matters important to me rather then going off topic hear and now.
Thank You So Much
Till then Just Listen!
Groovey Records
Listening to
John Coltraine Blue Train Blue Note BST 81577 TELDEC Direct Metal Master |
Speedy, I don't actually READ Stereophile anymore, maybe a page here and there. So when I read Rmaurin's post announcing Fremer's upcoming review, I was ernestly looking forward to the kind of specific point by point comparisons he made in his 2003 review of the Titan/TemperW/Audio Tekne. That was a truly informative piece, the kind that might make a reader to say to himself "I think I'm gonna try that one." (whichever one he decided).
In his current effort, I got the feeling he was writing a fictionalized account of an imagined review -- looks and tastes like information, but gosh, it's really just white noise. How many ways should I say disappointed?
These days, I learn more about equipment from the folks right here, where there are plenty of knowledgable people willing to candidly share their conclusions, with no concern for advertising revenue. And occasionally I even enjoy the ramblings of those who are disposed to speak from the other end of their food tubes ;--) BTW, please send nasty, and childish e-mails. I put them in cheap frames and hang them in the bathroom for -- stimulation ;--)
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I just got my copy and had to read what the fuss was all about. To quote a concluding snippet from Fremer's review in Stereophile v29.no12, p.34: A superb cartridge. By the way, what happened to the banging noise? I thought it carried both a zestful immediacy and timbral weight in the mid-bass. ;-> Tim |
Doug LOL (used Kleenix indeed!) And lest I gave anyone the wrong impression, I thoroughly enjoy reading M. Fremer's prose. It's almost always enjoyable -- like the "good" you feel when you STOP banging your head on the wall!
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Knowing how the darn "O" sounds,hearing it on many ocassions,now,what's you're problem('s)?Fremer got the gist of it(sound),"dead on",and I'm not a big fan of his.Look at his "now spinning" list.Mostly rock.Not easy to cozy up to,if you are a classical/jazz lover,who lives for detail,and stage presentation,with nice subtlties thrown in.Like myself,and some of my actual "real" friends.
If you techno geeks(not specific to anyone,pleeeeease!!)want to get to the heart of loading,etc,just look back on the later posts by Bc3!!He got it right,too,and I believe my original comparisons hold up well.
Neil,you have all your answers already,so what's the problemo?The Tempers,as I indicated awhile ago,are not in the league of the "O".That's actually good news.I don't want to spend the money,either,but MUST,as of the last few listening sessions.
Just don't put yourself in a position of disagreeable posting,even if well intended,and targeting anyone who may be SO self absorbed that you will get a nasty(as in cowardly/babyish)E-mail.One that gets read by all of your employees and wife,first,who ALL get a bit spooked,as they have been pre-conditioned by the media as to the number of "overly emotional nuts" who dwell there!You're better off just listening to your wonderful system.Doubled up CLS's or not!
Best! |
That < is indeed my dunce cap, worn whenever I attempt a particularly lame jest. Anything I say while wearing it may (and probably should) be used against me.
Neil, that one was just too juicy to pass up - sorry! I'm sure you took it in the utterly backassward way it was intended. :-) Like you, I wouldn't accept SP's characterization of a used Kleenex without seeking an independent second opinion.
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Doug, my point which I'm sure you understood, was that Fremer drew comparisons to Dynavector and Lyra without talking about maybe two or three other cartridges (ZYX being one) that should certainly be included in that group. Not that I felt his characterizations of the XV-1s or Titan-i probably count for anything anyway ;--)
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Is that < a cap, of sorts? Just askin'? |
Stereophile did do a review of a ZYX cartridge about 2 years ago. Here is a link http://www.stereophile.com/analogsourcereviews/504ZYX/index.html
I do enjoy Michael Fremer's writing. I find it informative and more importantly...enjoyable..like our hobby is supposed to be.
No offense to anyone. |
BTW, how come SP never tested a ZYX cart? Presumably because Mehran listened to your good advice! ;-) ZYX doesn't advertise, so sending SP a review sample might be asking for death-by-faint-praise. Not that I'm implying anything... BTW, can't we have one thread about a Tranny without you dragging ZYX into it again? You're fixated! <8~) |
A quick visit to the Stereophile website shows that they _have_ reviewed ZYX cartridges. At the very least they've reviewed the ZYX R-1000 Airy S, because they provide a link to an online review (done by Art Dudley in May 2004). Go to "Equipment Reviews", then "Phono Cartridges" within "Analog Sources", and you'll have the link.
BTW, among the other cartridge review links Stereophile provides, the Linn Akiva and Lyra Parnassus D.C.t are both yokeless/polepiece-less designs (albeit executed differently from the Transfigurations).
regards and hth, jonathan carr |
A, schmAy, whatever (and BTW, how come SP never tested a ZYX cart?) Here's a copy of an email I just sent my friend Tim:
I've not heard an Orpheus, but I love everything about my W,
and it does things all the things M. Fremer apparently forgot from his review of the W in June 2003 (which I have right here!)
As far as I can tell, he's a shameless dilettante like Jonathan Scull, (fraud alert!) and knows nothing about setting up a product for proper evaluation. My scientific background demands that rigorous experimental procedures be followed before any kind of critical listening can take place -- and that requires a lot more than just throwing a new out-of-the box cartridge into a $100K TT/TA.
I'm glad for the reviews and comments by the people on Audiogon. Even when somewhat biased towards a person's pet product, at least they come from real-world experience over a period of time. And if one has a question, the authors are quick and candid in their response. And it's free!
People like Fremer and Scull, are prose writers whose theme happens to be audio. They have no training in physics, acoustics, electrical engineering, or any of the other disciplines required to produce or evaluate audio equipment. They could just as easily (and unproductively) be writing about cars, or model trains. Who cares. . . . . . . |
