first thing I would do is upgrade the phono stage.
Upgrade path question with $2k to spend
I'd like to make my next upgrade in my 2 channel signal path. Right now it goes
Ortofon 2M Bronze (cart) -> Pro-Ject Debut Carbon SB (table) -> Pro-Ject Phonobox DS+ (Pre-amp) -> Yamaha Avantage RX-2070 (amp) -> Focal Aria 936 (fronts) + HSU ULS-15 MK2 (sub)
I understand room treatment can give the best bang but lets count that out for now. From a purely component perspective what do you think I should upgrade? Im leaning towards the turntable. It was my first table and altough I upgraded the cart, its only a $500 table. I was thinking of maybe buying the Rega Planar 6 w/ Aria MC cart.
Suggestions welcome thanks!
57 responses Add your response
@icegeek - I’m with @johnss - with the phono stage upgrade I would recommend the Simaudio Moon 310LP - then you will be able to hear improvements of future analogue upgrades - you will hear improvemetns from your existing cartridge Best Turntable Preamp | 310LP Phono Preamplifier | MOON - Simaudio I have it’s predesessor the LP5.3 RS and I have stopped looking for a replacement Prior to that I had owned several budget oriented phono stages and none of them came close to the performance of the MOON. I did take home an LFD phono stage, but it was not a great match to my other components, so I exchanged it for the LP5.3 RS - and Voila! The 110LP is also very good and it’s design is carried down from developments in higher models, so if you are uncomfortable with the 310LP price, then the 110LP is a great choice also. You could then afford a cartridge from a company like Soundsmith
I’ve changed cartridges a couple of times and the LP5.3 RS phono stage has revealed significant details with each uprade The Simaudio products also respond very well when great cables are used with them. I recommend Zavfino, In-Akustik and Hijiri cables for best performance Regards - Steve
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If you are using the bult-in room correction, plug your main speaker's ports and run it again. :)
In general though, I have not heard Yamaha HT receivers in a very long time, but I do know that the quality of the sound processing, especially the DAC's of HT processors is really very wide. The gap among products is really disappointingly wide, when you'd think it should be really close. So, generally speaking, I would encourage you to try out an Anthem if you can find one, only because they sound good and relatively inexpensive. For sure, not Onlyo or Emotiva. |
This is hard. I would immediately look to a phono stage… $2K will get you a much better one. The Phonostage is far up in the signal chain… But, first thing has to be the Yamaha. Surround processors sound terrible for two channel audio. I would trade it in and apply all your cash. I would buy a used integrated Luxman or NAD (only preamp and amp)… reach as high as possible. If you can actually get a used audiphile piece it will raise the performance level so much, it will allow you many years to get a better phono stage… which will then make a huge difference. Then TT and cartridge. |
I'm with @russ69 on this. You have a mixed starter system now. The mix is the Yammy HT receiver in with 2 channel.. I like the Yammy's quality and sound And they make decent integrated also which is what you need . There are different priorities between the 2 channel and HT. BTW, A 2 channel HT is fine for me and many others who have used it. .If you are adventurous a tube integrated may sound better to you also. But expect a little maintenance IE tube changing when bad. But many will last 5-10 yrs so its not an extraordinary amount to maintain. Then after the amp, the turntable needs upgrade. Then the phono preamp. Cartridge is alright for the time,have fun |
How is the TT mounted, there is room to improve the presentation from it and not too much money will be required if a DIY approach is tried. Trialling a Few Platter Mat Materials will usually have a cost attached if a few loaned ones are not able to be arranged. Exchanges of Mats a can also produce one that can have a real impact in uplifting the SQ. A Phonostage can be considered, a shop demonstration and home trial is worth trying to arrange, I don't suspect this will cost much money to achieve. |
I really don't see how my $2,000 Yamaha running in pure direct mode with 200wpc is affecting the sound quality. Who cares if it can do 13.2 I'm running it in 2.1 or 2.0. I was thinking going emotiva xpa 3 for a power Amp for my fronts and then I'd be able to run a Dirac Live setup. Still feel like my TT and cart are the weakest links |
The question then is this, Why do you want to spend $2k to upgrade a sound system if all sound is equal? Do you really think the priorities for movie dialog with a few explosions and music which covers 20-20Khz signal are the same? if you want HT then the Yammy is fine. But I've been down that route and it is not the path for good 2 channel. But its your $$ to do as you please |
Because a quality 2 channel rig for two grand sounds better than a mass market rig that has 13 amps with more than 6 times the components in it. Those components are going to be the cheapest ones available to keep the price down. Your loudspeakers would love a Rogue Sphinx V3. The Emotiva is the wrong choice for your loudspeakers, it will be dry and perhaps shrill. |
That is possible but somewhat impractical. IF you have banana plugs on your speaker cables, that would be pretty simple to switch out. A speaker switch is possible but it also can cause a loss of fidelity. The sub may be an issue. I can't say for sure. But what I will say is that many of us tried the 2 channel & HT all in one system. I even had a 3 channel amp/processor tied into the 2 channel stereo once. IMO it was one GIANT cluster **** with very little return. I now run the TV through my 2 channel. Sounds great, especially for concerts. And it works fine for HT as well. Many have had to decide this issue of which is most important, HT or music. But hey, I understand the frustration involved |
I’m sorry, buy honestly I would sell it all and start a fresh dedicated 2 channel system. Just my opinion. Ebay is a good place to dump it all. About the only decent thing I see is maybe the fronts...however, I have no idea what speakers those are, as I’ve not heard anything Focal except headphones. I’d save the 2 grand and sell off components and devise a plan and go from there. I think that will ultimately result in a better system for dedicated 2 channel listening. I would actually hang onto the 2m Bronze, it's a great cartridge. |
OP,
Surround processors are crammed with all sorts of functions. In home theater you have video distracting you from the audio. Audio only systems do that well. If you want good audio you need to get audio only stuff.
Take this into consideration, the very best audio amps are two boxes… one for left channel one for right. The very best preamps are two box solutions, one for the power supply and one for the preamp functions. The best preamps are a single or double box. Separating each function permits isolation of the circuits and power supply. cramming this stuff and many amps in a bag is not going to sound good. I have a home theater system worth around $50K… it is not remotely competitive in sound quality with my audio system.
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Having everything separate means having lots more connection points and the various wiring to connect all of it together so a good integrated would be the way to go. The old, worn out thought process said monoblocks, and all the associated stuff to go with them was the way to go but technology has come a long way and modern integrated amps sound every bit as good as separates. As for WPC, chances are you never or rarely reach that 200 level and there are lots of integrateds that are rated at 120 or 150 wpc that will play as loud as you want (unless you're playing outdoors or in a concert hall). Peachtree and Parasound are two that come to mind. |
I used to use a 90's Sony ES, HT 5.1 amp to run my DIY (morel drivers) speakers and sub. It was pre-HDMI and lacked other now commonly found features that i needed. I then started my first dedicated 2CH system with that Sony amp in Direct mode for stereo, and bought a Yamaha AX840 to backfill my HT setup. It looks to be about $100 less than yours in the same line. It totally destroyed the audio SQ of those speakers. It was apparent on the first track. As some above have also implied, I (personally) don't notice the SQ issue in HT that much but that's me. In my current 2CH I also use the same cart and TT thru a Vincent Pho8 pre. Using a now newer, tube amp ($4000 msrp) along with a modded MHDT Orchid DAC for CDs, I feel the vinyl side holds its own very well compared to the well regarded DAC. In fact both sources sound pretty amazing. Not being that familiar with your speakers but knowing the brand's reputation it's my experience that your weak link is the power source. No, I can't fix the 2CH vs 5.1 issue at that budget but feel strongly your amp is not the 2CH amp your system is needing. There are a slew of much better 2CH amps, new and especially used, for $2k. Maybe work the speaker selector device angle harder and run 2 amps? For the sub, try using the 5.1 from the HT and the hi-power inputs from the 2CH if sub has both? Maybe others can help here as I've never "shared" a sub like that. |
There has been a lot of good discussion here. From my perspective there are 2 bug upgrades you need to make; your analog rig and your amplification. Either one should produce a fairly large improvement. The amp is probably the less exciting thing to upgrade right now bit will pay huge dividends moving forward. For instance, if you upgrade your TT to something like a clearaudio concept (this would be my choice in that process range) you are going to get much improved sound, but you won't get all the table has to offer because your amplification is not designed for high end music reproduction. I agree that a dedicated 2 channel integrated is the right first move. I like the Rogue sphinx. It will play plenty loud. Later, you can upgrade the TT. And like russ said, be stupid on thr TT, spand more than seems reasonable, but don't do it until you have an amp that can reproduce it well. |
Fun question. My vote would be a two channel integrated amplifier. Something simple that does NOT have an integrated DAC or phonostage - just pre and amp Right now, I don’t think you will be able to hear the difference if you put more $ into the phono rig, given the limitations of the Yamaha A/V receiver for 2-channel listening System quality needs some balance across its components, and your phono rig seems well thought out, already - a solid setup For $2k, you’ve got great integrated choices, new or used. Looking only at “pure” integrated amps (without DAC or phonostage) will help narrow things down quite a bit Amp may seem less exciting now, but will make a big difference and be the foundation for a TT upgrade later Let us know what you audition! Have a great day |
What city are you in @icegeek ? |
@icegeek, my impression of your query is that you want better audio fidelity for music and, comparatively speaking, video, TV and home theater type audio is less important to you. Do I have that right? If so, I'm inclined to agree with ghdprentice in that this is, indeed, a very tough question! A two grand budget is somewhat limiting if what you're after is a significantly appreciable improvement in sonic fidelity for two-channel music, compared to what you already have. I've spent several hours of serious seat-time with the Focal Aria 936 in a two-channel system powered by a MAC MA5200, its price point Luxman competitor, a Rega P3 with Ortofon Blue and premium vinyl recordings. That was very, very nice! I, also, have an old 100-watt Yamaha receiver as a secondary system in the master bedroom for background music. So, I am very familiar with Yamaha "pure direct" sound. When I upgraded my TT for my primary two-channel music system, a Rega P6 with the Exact or Ortofon Bronze or Black was on my short list. You could save a few pennies by going with the Rega P6 or better and keeping your Ortofon Bronze, assuming it's still got good life left in it. However, I'm not certain how finicky Rega arms are with Ortofon carts. If you don't have a lot of experience setting-up carts, you might want to have that done by someone who has. Also, keep in mind that Rega is a proponent of low-mass design TT's. If you go Rega, make sure you have something rock-steady to place it on. There are many other commendable TT choices in the 2K to 2.5K price-point to consider, as well (e.g. Marantz TT-15S1; Mobile Fidelity; Music Hall; Technics; etc.). However, I'm not sure how much of a sonic improvement this would render, compared to what you already have. Only your ears can tell you that. I'm not familiar with your phono stage but that is, of course, another option to consider. Here again, though, I'm not certain how much bang for your buck in sonic improvement this would render, compared to what you already have. Similarly, IMHO, spending 2K on a new quality integrated amplifier, with or without integrated phono stage, is not going to yield much in the way of significant sonic fidelity improvement(s), compared to what you already have. A few other questions for you: do you have & use a record cleaning system (e.g. vacuum system; ultra-sonic; etc.)? You'd be surprised how much of a difference this can make. Also, using simple and relatively inexpensive accessories like a good quality record clamp, TT matt, stylus cleaner, etc. can make noticeable improvements. If you're not already using these types of accessories, I would suggest you start there and save some dough toward the future upgrade of a quality two-channel integrated amp (e.g. 5 to 6 grand). It's not all about the watts but, more importantly, about the quality of the power supply, harmonic distortion, signal-to-noise ratio, headroom, intermodulation distortion and all those other performance specs. Your Focal and your ears will appreciate that. Good luck and good hunting! |
If your system is 2.1 or 2.0 it has no business incorporating an AV receiver...preriod(s). I fully support blended systems using an AV receiver for center and surrounds, with a good dedicated integrated amp in HT Bypass mode for the main speakers, with music-first sources connected directly to the IA, and HDMI-only devices to the AVR. But in your case you have no other speakers, so sell the AVR and spend $3K on an integrated. Options abound. Halo HINT, Black Ice F35, used Hegel, Naim, Rega...etc. |
Please excuse my question as a newbie. I assume that the Yamaha Aventage RX-2070 (amp) also handles quad Blu-ray. I am in the same situation. If the amp is replaced with a dedicated two-channel, how would access to the quadraphonic sound of those music Blu-rays, which seem to be proliferating (Chicago, Pink Floyd, Beatles, etc.), be accessed? Thank you for your consideration. |
@davedword short answer is if you replace your AVR with 2-channel, you can only play back 2 channels (L-R stereo) of a multi-channel recording. Consider though that most multi-channel audio releases also include 2-channel stereo. Frankly, most of the re-channeling of old releases isn't all that great (unless we're talking Pink Floyd), and you'll get more enjoyment out of a great 2-channel system with millions of available recordings than mediocre multi-channel with only a limited amount of available source material. |
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@icegeek , this one is easy. Get a second sub and proper 2 way crossover. This will get your system stompin for sure. Everything else in the chain is minor in comparison. It is always at the back end of the system that improvements are most noticeable. If you pull 80 to 100 Hz away from your focals you will lower distortion and increase your headroom as much as 10 dB. That is twice as loud. Clipping will be much less common. You ALWAYS need two or more subwoofers. It takes at least two to smooth out room irregularities but the more the merrier. The bass in the room will be more even and powerful. Forget the amp for now. You want the bass out of those Arias. The result will be even better. You would need an amp 8 times as powerful to get the same result. We are also not talking about just volume but clean volume. When your system can play at higher intermediate volumes (90 dB) super cleanly the experience is a lot more like being there. |
OP,
You have to be a little careful using watts per channel. A good audio amp with high current could provide a much better drive and sound better with much less wpc. Indirectly the current is indicated by the wpc delivered into various impedance. A great amp with high current will double the watts per channel from 16 to 8 to 4 ohms. So, perhaps 100, 200, and 400Wpc. High end audio stuff will have much higher performance for the specifications, the noice floor will be much lower… which will be satisfying at a much lower value. Surround processors put out a lot of noise and require cranking up to sound good.
To cover all the facets of getting where you want to go I recommend getting a copy of Robert Harley’s book The Complete Guide to High End Audio. You have a sense of where you want to go, and getting there on a small budget is definitely possible. But it will require very carefully chosen components. I highly recommend used ones made for high end audio. |
Don't get hung up on the ratings game that is not part of the HiFi world. You are listening for sound quality not looking at numbers on the sales brochure. If you must look at numbers look at what it weighs per amp channel after looking specs up looks like yours weighs 3 pounds a channel. The Hagel that was recommended above weights over twenty pounds per channel. Which do you think have a better power supply? Bigger transformer in in? My amp is rated lower than yours and weighs over two hundred pounds a channel. How low of ohms can your speaker go and your amp still be stable? Years ago the appogee duetta signature was one of the best speakers in the world and they changed the amplifier construction they went down to a half an ohm or less and many amps just blew up trying to drive an almost dead short. Might be an idea for you to visit some truely high end stores and listen to some demos. Go listen to a half million dollar home theater system and you will understand that numbers are just about meaningless sales brochure stuff.
Regards |
Whats with the Yamaha?? Ditch that thing and buy a proper amp/pre-amp. The rest of your gear is fine. I don't get peoples addiction to clicks and pops. I have a very nice TT set up but hardly use it.....
Get a real amp and you will be a very happy person. 2 grand, used ,will buy you many possibilities that you will enjoy for years.....
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@jerryg123 I echo on the used hi-end amp like Hegel around $2k. The Hegel h160 you were referring to though has one catch. The midrange could sound lean particularly at low volume according to Tarun @ A British Audiophile. The newer Hegel h190 replacement model corrects it but is more expensive. Otherwise the used h160 presents itself a rather good value since its internal DAC is also very good. You got a almost $1k DAC with an 2015 integrated amp wholistic package for under $2k. |
Probably the OP doesn’t have room or budget, but my advice would be to keep the Home theater gear as a separate system, and add a dedicated 2 Chanel rig. They can share the same subs in some cases. I run 2 separate system in one room. The Home theater speakers are stuck in corners, etc as it’s not my priority and the 2 Chanel speakers are placed further into the room. Since I have a tube preamp and tube input section on my amps, I don’t want to run tubes while watching movies. |
Definitely, definitely take out the Yamaha. Doesn't matter how expensive it is or good it is for multichannel listening. You want a 2 channel amp with some toroids. Either an integrated or a preamp/amp combo which has home theater bypass. Then you can still use the whole system. At $2000 budget, look used. |
I’d not spend $2k for a phono stage. Heck you can find the PS Audio phono stage used for less than $500, which provides excellent results. i’d upgrade the Turntable. $2k goes along way on the used market. I just bought a new MMF9.3 for $1800. But no doubt, save funds for an integrated amplifier! Immediately. |
