Weakest Link in my system... Power Supply, DAC, or...

Move your equipment to a larger space and elevate your listening experience with the expansive, realistic soundstage that these exceptional audio components are capable of reproducing.

Haha. Yes the room is not ideal, I live in New York City!

the room has a large opening to a dining room, and another to the second floor…. Open to suggestions on the room besides moving to another house…! 
 

when I listen I move the PAP horns about 3.5’ from the wall. It sounds terrific but have never experienced an ideal room…

r

Your system looks fairly well matched. Obviously carefully chosen. It would be very useful if you could create a virtual system and post some photos from different angles and of your space. That would be very helpful.

Try this Acoustic Zen MC2 digital cable.  This is a great price so if it doesn’t work out you can probably turn around and sell it for a $50+ profit.  Hurry because it won’t last long.  Read the reviews — they’re all extremely positive. 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650228683-acoustic-zen-silver-mc2-digital-coax-cable/

The most critical audio component is the room.  You can keep spending more money on better equipment and only get a fraction of the benefit because the room problems will eat up the rest.

Active bass traps will go a long, long way to elevate the sound presentation in the room and many are very inconspicuous.   Also, in NY vernacular, if you have a TV between the speakers well, Forgeddaboutit.  

I am interested in learning more about my bass trap options... where to begin on this? 

Thanks,

Richard

We would recomend a dac upgrade

r2r dacs tend to roll of the high end 

@audiotroy  Nonsense. 

@rick_n You are 100% correct. New DAC or a new digital cable is not going to overcome the shortcomings of an untreated/balanced listening space. 

Your room is definitely the weakest link. Or rather your belief there's little you can do. Acoustical treatment on the ceiling, is as important as the walls in controlling both early reflections and overall reverb and slap echo.  and using panels covered in cloth to match the ceiling, they are virtually  invisible. Wall panels can also be covered with artwork, and even your own photos. 

Corner bookcases offer a tremendous opportunity to integrate absorption, diffraction and bass traps into their design. Think an 'L' shaped piece divided into cubbies, some filled with books, others panels either facing straight on or slabs on edge - mixing it up.allows a lot of tuning options. Using two intersecting flat cases would leave a 12X12 rectangular space (assuming a 12" deep bookcase) that could house invisible bass traps - passive or active. Even doing some of this will yield far greater and immediately  audible improvements for a fraction of cost of any electronics changes or re-cabling.

Being unable to tx the room, as everyone here is correct, your next major advance will be more difficult. My PAP’s leaped forward literally and figuratively when they moved 8 ft off the front wall(because I could). You might consider a SWFB or Fidelium SC’s as that horn will showcase. 

The system "sounds" great based on components. 

Weakest link is room. You can always change DAC and amp for different/better but if you get clever with room treatments you'll have better listening sessions

Great system. A virtual system with pics would be helpful.
 

Is there something about the system that you feel is lacking or that bothers you? What are your listening habits, genre, volume levels? That might be a good place to start.
 

The only piece I see that is missing is some form of power treatment. Given you are in NYC, it might make a difference for you. I have found my solution with a regenerator, but there are many options. 

Power upgrade’s / cables…, nonsense ! As said by most room treatment should be your primary Implementation. 

If you've done all that in the space of eight months, why not just enjoy what you have for a while and forget about the need to "improve" anything?

Another +1 for room treatments.

Best bang for the buck by far.

That's a really nice, well balanced system. What's your budget? As others have said, addressing the room might be the biggest bang for buck move. I don't think you have to go wild to get significant gains. Make sure the first reflection points are addressed-don't forget the ceiling. Beyond that, I think speakers, then preamp, amp are the most significant, but usually the most costly and you seem to have good equipment-would likely need to spend 2-3 times more to get big gains. I'd suggest the room first. FWIW, a new DAC would be pretty far down on the list for me. Once you get a competent DAC, there are gains to be had but unless you spend big, relatively modest compared to other possibilities-just my opinion-I'm sure others disagree. 

GIK Acoustics is super helpful with room treatment options. Just a few emails back and forth with pictures and room measurements, and they will have a 3D virtual rendition of your room with treatment options to fit your budget that is really really helpful to have on hand and evaluate your next steps. . They'll do this for free if you go to their website and poke around, you will find an email address to request help for. 

Clean power is important.  If you're using stock power cords w/o a conditioner, I think spending a little is warranted.  For me, I saw large improvements by going to all Audioquest NRG-Y3 (or better) power chords and something as inexpensive as an Audioquest Powerquest 303 or 505. Better clarity, tighter bass.

Better DAC helped get tone, clarity, and bass extension for me.

Don't sell the house or modify such WAF gets affected!

My room sounds pretty much like your listining space (dimensionally the same opening to a dining room) I run a smaller horn based system with simaler electronics. My reccomendation would be to work on the room.

I just went through this for a second time. This time using more appropriate acoustic panels. My system throws a  plausible ,solid center stereo image but not a lot of depth to the sound stage. After treating the room is is no longer and issue .

GIK is a good starting place for info.

Greetings r,

Power supply and then room treatment/acoustics. The order is not important.

I've rebuilt/redesigned  the PS in my amps and preamp including custom wound tranny and chokes. Fortunately, I have the technical skills. Huge improvement and a rather expensive proposition to undertake.

I also applied room treatments courtesy Acoustics First many years ago. Corner traps, flat panels and deflection curve panels. Once done, the improvement is profount; I've not had the desire to swap gear 'monthly'. lol

I've JUST gone digital in my small solid state system with a Wiim Ultra. I'm not the guy to comment on DACs or streamers, other than power supply is important.

If you have the skills go for the soldering iron otherwise do the best you can with room treatments.

Cheers,

-W

Hello OP

As others have posted, you listening room may be your constraint. My audiophile nephew told me in the past that he has gained the most impact by improving room acoustics. At first, I did not really dig that, until no matter what I do, the changes are just incremental. One day, I contacted ATS acoustics and spoke with their support. I told them my room and my gear. they suggest the panels and I just got everything they told me (see my profile) 

Once all installed and after a few days, I notice that I can bring up the volume and I can hear more into the music. I am a bit deft, but I am sensitive to tone, timbre and spatial differences. 

Since you have the PAP speakers, which i have heard, you are good to go. BUT!!! That speaker needs to integrate with the room; it is so ROOM dependent. The better the room acoustics, The better that sounds. IMHO, you will be best served with Room Acoustic treatments. 

Lastly you mentioned about Prima Luna upgrades (Caps and resistors). To me that is another topic all together. I am very familiar with this as my 845 Audio Note clone power amp was built with all premium parts such as Mundorf, Audio note and Dale resistors and Japan Irons. It was assembled that way. When we did a shootout between an Audio Research and VTL amp, my clone easily equaled the VTL and surpassed the AR.

Hope you find which path you want to take

Again, this was in IMHO only. 

Obviously the room, although it needs slightly unique solutions for open baffle speakers. I ran various models of open baffle Alon's for years, and I previously owned PL I can't recall if it was you or someone else, in any case there is recent thread on mods for your PL. Open baffles like to be well away from room boundaries, but then you may lose bass moving them out further into room. You could also try EL34 tubes with PL, I always preferred EL34 to KT family in push pulls, EL34 has magic mids the others can't match.

So, room becomes somewhat moot if audio specific treatments not allowed, just get the speakers well away from room boundaries. Clean power is where I'd go next with your system, don't cheap out here, dedicated lines and good grounds go a long way, assuming you can modify your electrical service. Power conditioner would also be at top of list for improvement, you'll get endless advice as to which one. Beyond that your dac is next weakest link, and r2r dac's not necessarily rolled on top, I have r2r and Sabre chip dac, implementation of any protocol or chip is key. Your system very nice foundation for excellent sound quality, don't need wholesale changes.

Getting larger listening space is most impactful. I do not spend any significant money to upgrade audio components.

My mathematical calculation:

Upgrade audio --- from $5,000 to $10,000 --> maybe 5 - 10% up, not 100%

Larger room/higher ceiling --- from 12 x 16 x 8 to 16 x 20 x 9 --> tremendous!

If you cannot change your room, perhaps you could have an easily moveable listening chair and use  near field listening when you alone are enjoying your music.. I have treated the room enough with pillows and bookcases so that most positions now sound good for my guests, but I could never achieve great imaging due to constraints on what I could do to the room. I sit about 5 feet from each speaker and the sound stage dimensions and imaging are beautiful from the sweet spot. 

If you can’t articulate what improvements you’re looking for, leave it all as is. 
If you’re itching to do something to your set up run two dedicated lines, one for digital and one for analog. 

DAC progress has been significant since the 2019 release of this DAC?

Nope!

If you have not already, I would suggest buying a usb mic, taking measurements of the room, and then building room correction convolution filters to feed into roon.  Very cheap and highly effective.

Not a replacement for room treatment, but big impact for little money.  And fun to add room treatments and compare measurements.  

I am humbled, grateful, and delighted by all of these insightful responses. Thank you!!!!

i do see room treatments as the main next step for me. I do have the ability to move the speakers easily (The PAP’s are on good feet and easily movable) and my listening chair also moves easily. When doing a proper listen I move my speakers out from the wall about 3-4’, with about 6.5’ between them, and my ears are about 6.5’ from them, forming a equilateral triangle. 

I am an architectural designer with a fair amount of design, cad, CNC, and fabrication chops, so am eager and have a lot to learn in terms of accoustical treatments to the room. It’s not that I can’t add acoustical treatements, it’s that i want them to look good and I want them to be integrated into the custom book shelves that I will soon design. 

I will be soon designing bookshelves for the two corners of my room where my speakers are closest to. Their dims can be 2’ deep, 4’ wide, and 8’ tall. (I would incorporate the equipment and a bit of vinyl into their design)

If I simply have shelves with those exterior dimensions, lined with books and vinyl, is that a close approximation of the ideal room treatment in this location behind the speakers in the corners of the room? Or is there more to do? (I will look at the resources you all mentioned soon).

If I have fabric panels in the ceiling (what percentage and location of the ceiling) is that a good approximation of “room treatment”? (I would consider incorporating the lighting into the panels)

Currently I have a thick blanket on the floor before the speakers, two largish cloth sofas, and a cloth chair, with little on the walls and ceiling. I think this warrants improvement as you all seem to suggest! 

Currently the system sounds absolutely amazing. Soon I’ll be adding a nagra streamer (as my Mac mini is currently the weak link) with a Accoustical Zen Silver MC2 coax cable. I do enjoy the music, every single minute of every single hour it plays, which is several hours a day. It’s stunning. 

I just always want to eke out a few drops more, potential is potential…. ! 

THANK YOU ALL! 

R. 

Not sure if Dropbox links can be attached as images here, but here are links to photos of the front and back of my listening room. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qr0z96ll6crnz7806pywa/IMG_6048.HEIC?rlkey=f8qfq1z6oadds8ex1x6iqe02u&st=raz6shsb&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ex5cd8awt26sgijmgqb7u/IMG_6050.HEIC?rlkey=4gqyl009b4i00gxj62jtio25r&st=7bj5f43o&dl=0

I am also curious how open baffle speakers such as these may have different requirements, or simply more of the same requirements, as a regular box speaker. 

It does play the room, and the stage seems as large as a big rig….

r.

If I simply have shelves with those exterior dimensions, lined with books and vinyl, is that a close approximation of the ideal room treatment in this location behind the speakers in the corners of the room? Or is there more to do?

For corners behind the speakers it’s common to use bass traps, and bookshelves won’t do anything to help with that if you’re trying to improve in-room bass.  Not sure it’s as big of an issue with dipole speakers (but it’s probably still an issue), but if you’re hearing overdone or wooly, soft, or slow bass then traps might be worth looking into.  Also treating first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling can be very effective, and using some absorption or diffusion devices (or a combo thereof) on the front wall and/or between the speakers can also yield tangible improvements.  A lot of people here have used GIK Acoustics so might be worth contacting them to get their thoughts, and their products seem to be good and not unreasonable price wise.  Let us know how the AZ MC2 works out if you could. 

https://www.gikacoustics.com/