What angle should I set the VTA on my VPI turntable?

Raised at the back is lighter and brighter. Lower is heavier bass and rolled off highs. Find your preference in between. It can vary by record. Pick best compromise. If it’s off parallel by more than a few degrees to get the sound you prefer, something else might be out of alignment.

Set it level and then adjust by ear to achieve the final setting.

On the Fly is great.

Start parallel as you have, then adjust back of arm up, speck by speck, listening for any preference, particularly high frequencies.

Your cartridge should have specs for it's VTA, look up the related Stylus Rake Angle SRA which is the true goal.

It is more important to get azimuth and VTA correct for advanced stylus shapes. What stylus do you have?

VPI owner here.

Don't go beyond  noromance's suggestion. It's just nervosa+  with no music enjoyment.

Find a "middle of the road setting or you can set EVERY LP prior to playing, and feed the disease.

My cartridge is a Lyra Kleos.  I believe VTF and azimuth are good.  I use a digital scale for the VTF and use both (i) a bubble-level and (ii) a super-light aluminum bar/old fashion ruler to adjust azimuth.  Those settings never change.

So based on the responses above, starting with the arm 100% parallel to the record surface sounds like is a good place to start.  Presumably, the stylus is sitting at a perpendicular angle to the record surface.  I recall reading somewhere that the optimal SRA is 92 degrees.  Two degrees off ... screw it.  Close enough.

Any further comments or suggestions on VTA????  Lewm ... you out there??

P.S. -- I am listening to Linda Ronstadt singing the old classics accompanied by the Nelson Riddle orchestra; the record is part of a 3 record set.  Boy oh boy, ... can LR handle a song.    

The big soundstange that LP was recorded on will reveal magic in a system ;-) Tweak a bit then settle in, adjusting it for every LP is a drag….

Two degrees is not screw it. Two degrees is a freak show. Horror. Two degrees and you might as well have bought a CloseNPlay.

No you are dead wrong about the stylus being perpendicular. But forget all that. Once you have the arm tube parallel everything from here on in is by ear anyway. From here on in all you think about is what you are hearing, and which way to make your next microscopically small adjustment.

Try and understand, there are details in the record groove the finest squiggles of which are only about as big as a large organic molecule. Your fancy expensive stylus is precision cut with a special geometric profile designed precisely to trace such tiny squiggles. You fail to make this one essential adjustment you throw all that time and effort and money away. VTA is easily and by far the most important of all adjustments that can be made. It is only thanks to the magic of vinyl that it sounds so good even with crude nowhere near perfect VTA. Learn to get it dialed in just right and you will be richly rewarded.

Here’s how you do it. Starting off you are either too high or too low, don’t know which. Play any record. Really doesn’t matter but nice to use one you know well. If your arm is too high the sound will be very fast, articulate and detailed, but relatively lacking in body and fullness. Turn the dial no more than a few (3 to 5) of the smallest marks and listen again.

If you went the right direction you will have lost almost no detail but gained some body and weight. This is good. This means you are going in the right direction. Keep making small adjustments like this, one after another, for as long as the sound continues to improve.

At some point, you don’t know where, instead of gaining body and weight you will gain bloat and lose detail, especially top end detail. At this point you have gone too far. Dial it back. But only dial it back by about half your last move. Now you are close. Now you are fine-tuning. This is an iterative process, splitting the difference until there is no difference left to split. This is why they put all those tiny little marks on there, see? No way on Earth you can see the angle change. But you can easily hear it. Or learn to hear it.

Or if not, no sweat. Whole point is to get the sound you like. Lots of guys are happy with close enough. You paid a lot of money for what you have, but it is your money. If you are happy, great.

If what makes you happy is incredibly awesome vinyl playback, well then that is why they put those marks on there- so you can do this with all your records, or as many as you really care about anyway. It is just not that hard.

Your first one is always the hardest. Might take you all of both sides. Might take you more than one record. But once done you will find they are all very, very close to this same level. Also you get real good at hearing what is going on. This means adjusting from record to record goes a lot faster. It can be done in the time it takes to play one side, only getting up and adjusting a couple times. Read the number off the dial, write it down on the record sleeve, you are done. Next time you can dial it back precisely where it was, fast and simple as reset the dial.

Sounds like a lot of work and that puts a lot of guys off. But, how many hours, weeks, months of working and saving did it take to get the thing in the first place? Ever wonder why it is people pay hundreds of dollars for some guy to come tune their table and say it was well worth it? Ever wonder what it was they did that was so magical? This is it. 

This article might be of interest to you: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

With full knowledge that it’s a controversial subject, I personally set SRA (being the more important angle to be concerned about) to about 92°, then adjust as per the suggestions that noromance mentioned. When either looking at VTA or SRA, know that a few degrees either way is not critical, after all, you aren’t going to reset your VTA each time you go from a 120g to 180g record.

Ok, ... so I just set the tonearm to be 100% parallel to the platter.  Then I closed my eyes and started to adjust the VTA up and down.  There were subtle changes in the sound as the folks above described. 

So I kept adjusting the VTA up and down until I found what seemed to be the sweet spot.  The playback had good detail and the bass was taunt.  I then re-checked the VTA with my bubble-level.  Surprise, surprise.  The arm was almost parallel to the platter with the pivot side very slightly raised.  Go figure.  I guess I just like sonic swill.  ;)         

No it is just the previously mentioned vinyl magic. Also, probably due mostly to stylus profile, this varies from cartridge to cartridge. My Benz Glider and Ruby really rewarded being fine tuned for each record. The Koetsu does reward being dialed in, but once that is done doesn't show nearly as much difference between records. Although to be honest it is really more a case of it sounds so doggone good I lose interest in tweaking and just want to sit there and enjoy the music it is making. 

I go with Michael Fremer on this one. SRA 92 degrees as seen with a USB microscope. Otherwise set the arm so that the mounting surface of the cartridge is parallel to the surface of a 180 gram record. You will have to go pretty far ( over 3 degrees) one way or the other to make a difference in sound quality. It is not as critical as it is made out to be although I think people with more expensive line contact cartridges should try to be as accurate as possible. If they spend 10 grand on a cartridge they can plop $300 down on a USB microscope. 

My final settings are done by ear, using a couple of well-known (at least to me) records including the well known flying fish record about which there is an article for using that record to set VTA. There are other records as well: I first heard that Clements/Holland, Norman Blake and Tut Taylor record in a listening session decades ago, and Saurerkraut 'n Solar Energy was a killer then. 
But, using it to set VTA is for me, like a knife edge, and gets closer to the zone where you have to adjust for differences in sound, quicker. 
Once I'm dialed in, I don't change much- if it is a stupidly fat record, I'll take account of it, but I'm not down to adjusting per record. I also found that the need to do so varies by cartridge; that is, certain cartridges will sound better if dialed in more to whatever is happening in the grooves. 

9 out of 10 of us wouldn’t be able to measure SRA accurately even with a USB microscope. For most of us that method would be a waste of time and money, unless maybe one has been trained by an experienced person, like MF or Peter L. This has been shown more than once on various vinyl forums. IMO, the best advice is to set the top of the headshell parallel to the LP surface, then go up or down from there if the initial setting does not yield good tonal balance. As many others have already written.

what @lewm & @whart said!

IME, some carts demand frequent VTA adjustment to sound their best while others seem pretty damn happy and less sensitive to small adjustment. Cheers,
Spencer

bifwynne,
I see you upgraded to the VPI stainless arm with VTA adjust.  My experience with the original stainless unipivot is this: When VTA is changed, adjusting the tail up decreases VTF.  Adjusting it down increases VTF.  A lot.  If VTA isn't close, the adjuster won't make much difference in sound.  The fix was procedural.  I began using a VTA/VTF gridded block to level the cartridge and closed in on the VTA from there, readjusting VTA then VTF and repeating.  With the Lyra I imagine the situation is compounded by its' sensitivity to VTF.  You may have arrived back at the sweet spot of coil alignment but not SRA.  When in the ballpark, the range of the adjuster will take you from murky to shrill and finding the VTA sweet spot is easy.

Another VPI owner. With my Sussurro, sounds best when arm is slightly higher in the back 

wlutke

When VTA is changed, adjusting the tail up decreases VTF.

Just the opposite: Raising the "tail" (pivot) will increase VTA.
See VTA/SRA diagram here.

cleeds,
Wrong. On a unipivot the balance changes and I am correct.  You're comparing VTF and VTA.  Two different parameters.  
There is a typo though. There is no VTA/VTF block. It’s a VTA/Azimuth block. My bad.

But if you replace VTA with VTF in cleeds post, the statement is correct, tail up, VTF up.

wlutke

cleeds,
Wrong. On a unipivot the balance changes and I am correct. You’re comparing VTF and VTA. Two different parameters.

You’re obviously confused.
VTA = Vertical Tracking Angle. Shown here.
VTF= Vertical Tracking Force. That’s the weight (force) on the stylus as it sits on the LP surface.

If you raise the "tail" (pivot) you can only increase VTA. It’s simple geometry - again, see diagram.

I’m not sure why you mentioned VTF but since you did: Increasing VTA by raising the "tail" (pivot) will also increase VTF. It will also decrease overhang. Again, this is all basic geometry and physics.

cleeds,

If you raise the "tail" (pivot) you can only increase VTA.

I know. Show me where I said differently.

Increasing VTA by raising the "tail" (pivot) will also increase VTF.

Wrong. Again, it changes the balance and the VTF lightens.
As an example, visualize the arm at level neutral balance above the platter. Raise the platter until it contacts the stylus. Still 0 grams pressure. Lower the tail. Now you have pressure. You’ve LOWERED the tail, INCREASING the pressure. There’s your physics.

Dear lutke, I don’t know about your model, but throw it out. Now think that you and a friend are carrying a sofa. On level ground, the burden is equally shared. Now you have to carry the sofa up a staircase. Who is working harder? The guy at the top end or the guy at the bottom end? Raising the pivot point shifts the center of gravity toward the stylus. VTF goes up.

lewm,
Rest the stylus on the platter at 0 grams. Lower the pivot point. I guarantee the pressure will increase. Raise the pivot point and it will loose contact with the platter. VTF is set with the scale at record level because setting above the record height (tail down) will give a false heavy reading up to .25 gm. on some scales.

Your model is flawed.

I've done the work, taken the measurements.  Nuh-uh is not a rebuttal.  Show me.

OP,

I mentioned my specific cartridge for a reason.

I know the Delos set-up is super sensitive, don't know about Kleos

Let me be sure I understand what you are saying, Lutke. You say to place the cartridge on the LP surface at zero VTF, first of all. Correct? Typically when VTF = 0, the cartridge is floating in space above the LP surface, and the tonearm is parallel to the LP surface, else the tonearm is not truly balanced. OK, so in order to get the stylus to come into contact with the LP, I am going to have to crank down the VTA adjuster/pivot point quite a bit from where it would be for normal use, i.e., to play a record. So now I have got that done.  VTF = 0, with the LP in contact with the stylus tip. Now you say to crank down the pivot point still further. Yes, that will increase VTF from zero, because the LP must exert a force on the stylus tip to push it and the tonearm upwards; now the tonearm sits at an angle, with the cartridge up and the counter-weight down. The "VTF" you are measuring is that force needed to perturb the tonearm from its natural position of parallel to the LP surface, when VTF =0. Anyway, any time you want to move a sofa, I am your man. You can be on the bottom as we go up some stairways.

lewm

... you and a friend are carrying a sofa. On level ground, the burden is equally shared. Now you have to carry the sofa up a staircase. Who is working harder? The guy at the top end or the guy at the bottom end? Raising the pivot point shifts the center of gravity toward the stylus. VTF goes up.

Correct. This is basic physics. It’s odd that anyone here would need the explanation, but @wlutke clearly needs some help.
wlutke

I’ve done the work, taken the measurements. Nuh-uh is not a rebuttal. Show me

We’ve explained the geometry and the physics to you. Now it’s up to you to understand.

cleeds,
The sofa analogy ignores the physics of a pivot point. Teeter-totter would be better.

cleeds, slaw, lewm,
I’ll attempt to clarify. Here’s my model:
Put a dot in the center of a paper. That’s the pivot. Draw a vertical line through it. Thats’ gravity. Draw an offset horizontal line through it. That’s the tonearm. Add counterweight and cartridge. Of course we can balance it at 90 degrees. We can also balance it at 45 degrees. Q - How is that possible? What keeps it from just swinging vertical? A - Leverage. Leverage varies with the distance of the cartridge to the gravity line. Maximum leverage at the cartridge is with the tonearm at 90 degrees to the gravity line. The tonearm will usually be less than 90 degrees, it’s in the design. Lower the tail and the tonearm will move further towards horizontal, increasing the leverage at the cartridge, increasing VTF. Because the counterweight is on a much shorter lever the change in distance to the gravity line is negligible.
P.S. cleeds,
I’m playing nice. You should try it sometime.

Some time ago, this issue was discussed here.  The question then was not "whether" VTF goes up when the pivot point is raised, but "how much" does it go up.  Someone did the experiment, and the answer was "not very much", but definitely VTF went UP.  You could repeat the experiment but don't start with VTF =0 as in your model.  Start with a real world situation where VTF is any value >0.  Then you will see VTF go up if pivot is raised.
Also, think of your car sitting on level ground.  It has a given weight distribution between front vs rear wheels.  Think of the front wheel pair as the stylus tip.  Now jack up the rear of the car.  What has happened to the weight distribution?  More of the weight is supported by the front wheels.

lewm,
You must include a pivot in your analogies or they don't apply.  Imagine raising the pivot point until the stylus lifts from the platter.  The arm will balance at less than vertical.  That's because the leverage at the cartridge decreased as the cartridge neared the gravity line and equilibrium was reached (balance).  The VTF is then zero.  It must have decreased.

lewm

... The question then was not "whether" VTF goes up when the pivot point is raised, but "how much" does it go up. Someone did the experiment, and the answer was "not very much", but definitely VTF went UP.

Yes, it goes up, and it's easily measured with a stylus force gauge.

Funny, my experience is the opposite.  I wonder if the answer flip flops depending on which side of parallel the tonearm is.  Above, below or horizontal.  I know what my arm as it's set up does.  Physics isn't my thing and there could be (and most likely are) other explanations I've not considered.  I would love an answer from someone who actually knows.  No one here does, including me.  It's fun and didn't get too sideways.  Cheers!

Thanks guys.  If jcarr catches this thread, maybe he can weigh in with some practical advice since I am using one of his cartridges (Lyra Kleos).  

My sense is that lewm's approach makes the most sense.  I ordered a cheap super light/small bubble-level to double-check the azimuth and VTA one more time.  I will probably tweak the tuchus (the backside) of the arm up a smidge and call it a day.   

While I can envision that raising or lowering the tail of the tonearm will affect VTF and the P-S distance to some degree, I surmise that a small adjustment of the VTA wouldn't make all that much difference in SQ.  I am not OCD about my turntable and do not have the patience to make a minute adjustment to VTA and then readjust the P-S distance and VTF.     

Hello,
Not even close to an expert here. Here is my two cents. Please do a final VTA adjustment after about 50 hours or per Michael Fremer set it to 93* when the cart is new. As the cart breaks in or settles you will lose about 1*. I think the angle is 92.3*. After a lot of playing you will naturally get to this. Or set it to 92* at the beginning and recalibrate after 50 hours. Regardless once set up I would do a listening setup. That’s what I did when setting up the Prime with the unipivot arm. 

Hello,
One more thing. Please do not set up your table with a cheap bubble level unless you checked or calibrated it with a really good level. I have made this mistake and found out these cheap bubble levels are not true. Your albums and your cart are not cheap. Please do not wear your gear out sooner than it should. It has been proven that a well set up cart sounds better and makes your cart and records last longer. I’m not trying to get on my soapbox. This equipment is not cheap and some of these albums cannot be replaced. I hope this helped. 

Miller:   "...I lose interest in tweaking..."

SURELY NOT !!!!!

 unipivot. and some tonearm style do not perform. well if it's way above the parallel setting.. either compromise. or find a better mounted cart.

I suggest look up all the videos and article by soundsmith Mr Peter and by Mr Michael fremer.. a mixture of accuracy and compromising art it is. 

@lewm, using a USB micoscope to set SRA is very accurate. You take snapshots and measure with a protractor to a reference line that is perfectly horizontal. I use a laser level. The toughest part is holding the microscope fixed in the right position without any wobble. Once you have a microscope stand figured out it is a breeze. 

You set VTA the same on any turntable....it’s not specific to the turntable, but to the cartridge. In general, you want the tonearm parallel to the record...from there, you can tweak it to your liking, cartridge ass down, or tipped forward...generally ass down, more bass and more full, tipped forward, more treble or high frequency detail....I belive you are looking for a stylus rake angle of about 92 degrees. You should also re-check your stylus down force upon adjusting VTA.
I set mine and mostly leave it alone...there are too many variables involved as far as record thickness etc...unless you want to drive yourself nuts and adjust for every record...

Hshifi is conflating SRA (~92 degrees) with VTA (~21-23 degrees). The two are interdependent of course.

Mijo, an analysis of data in the form of photos posted on vinyl asylum (I think) revealed that most “amateurs” draw the lines incorrectly when adjusting SRA with a USB camera. Thus they arrive at incorrect SRA. Personally I take it as the height of anal audiophilia even to try it. But that’s just me.

@noromance 

Raised at the back is lighter and brighter. Lower is heavier bass and rolled off highs. Find your preference in between. 

This is the most common mistake in setting VTA.

VTA should not be used as a tone control.
The correct VTA is when the information retrieval and soundstage presentation are maximised. That is when the stylus is aligned to the cutting angle used for the record and maximum information including natural harmonic structure is preserved on reproduction.

@audioguy

 In general, you want the tonearm parallel to the record...from there, you can tweak it to your liking, cartridge ass down, or tipped forward...generally ass down, more bass and more full, tipped forward, more treble or high frequency detail..
This is the most common mistake in setting VTA.

This is not correct.

VTA should not be used as a tone control.
The correct VTA is when the information retrieval and soundstage presentation are maximised. That is when the stylus is aligned to the cutting angle used for the record and maximum information including natural harmonic structure is preserved on reproduction.

@lewm , amazing that many people flunked out of geometry isn't it?
I already have the microscope and the set up so why not use it? It makes me feel better knowing I am right on.......even if the records are not:-) Trust me on this. I did not flunk out of geometry. That stereo cabinet I showed you was designed in my head. There were never any plans, just a list of measurements of such things as records and all the equipment. 

@dover , I definitely agree that VTA should not be used as a tone control.
However, I think the rest of your statement may be a bit on the flowery side. Most people, myself included can not hear a degree or two one way or the other and that is probably within the degree of error of the lathes anyway. I am a set it and forget it kind of guy. But when I set it it must be right on the money, as he slams his fist on the desk for effect:-)

One thing a lot of these comments have in common is what I consider extremely large or gross adjustments. This is fine if all you want is to be somewhere in the ball park.   

But for that you don't need a USB microscope, or even a bubble level. All you need is a piece of paper with parallel lines. Hold it on the platter, adjust the arm tube parallel, call it good. None of these other things are gonna get you any better, because from here it must be done by ear.  

Sure you can use those other methods. Just don't kid yourself they are any better. For the simple reason the fine-tuning of VTA is orders of magnitude smaller than anything you can see even with a USB microscope.  

VTA differences I have heard are as small as 1 mark on a VTA dial, like the one on the VPI. On my Graham these were about 1-2mm apart. The Graham VTA adjuster is about 24 threads per inch. It has been a while so I forget but it seems there were something like 30 of these marks all the way around. 30x24=720 so one mark is 1/720th of an inch. Pretty close to one one thousandth. Origin Live thread pitch is finer and looks more like 32tpi. Also the wheel is a lot larger. This probably explains why with Graham I was often times interpolating while with OL the larger marks spaced farther apart were fine. In both cases we wind up somewhere around 1/500th to 1/750th of an inch. 

This is vertical at the pivot point. Do your geometry if you want to work out how many arc seconds that is at the stylus. Go ahead, knock yourself out. As for me I am happy to rest assured it is less than you will ever be able to measure with any USB microscope. You just won't see it. But I sure can hear it.  

Probably a lot think this is crazy. Fine with me. Not the point. I am as always the last one to argue with anyone says they can't hear any difference, don't care, etc.  Just want to be real clear exactly what I am talking about when I say I do.     

If your VTA is off by as little as .01", then however good you think your imaging is, presence, extension, definition and detail, if it is even this much off you can make it better with a few micro VTA adjustments.   

This is why they put those tiny little marks on VTA adjusters. This is what you paid for when you bought that expensive arm. Use it or lose it.

Kleos (and every Lyra I've owned) should start with arm tube level and parallel with record surface with stylus playing.  Then turn the VTA adjustment knob one full turn up and listen.  Then back to level and listen, then one full turn down and listen.  Return to parallel with record surface and listen.  Whatever sounds best, adjust to that position.  Then use that as a starting point to repeat the process.  

At some point, moving the arm pivot up or down one full turn will degrade the balance, timing and imaging.  That means you've gone too far and should start heading in the opposite direction.  

Just as a reminder, tracking force may change slightly with VTA changes.  Check the rest of the alignment during the testing to make sure VTA changes haven't change them.  

remember to use your protractor after raising/lowering the arm....the cartridge will need to be moved forward/backward.

millercarbon, then you need to adjust your VTA with each record as they are all a little different and you think you can hear it. Knock yourself out.

Read the number off the dial, write it down on the record sleeve, done. Next time you can dial it back precisely where it was, fast and simple as reset the dial.

Sounds like a lot of work and that puts a lot of guys off. But, how many hours, weeks, months of working and saving did it take to get the thing in the first place? Ever wonder why it is people pay hundreds of dollars for some guy to come tune their table and say it was well worth it? Ever wonder what it was they did that was so magical? This is it.

Needless to say this will not be worth it if you are unable to hear the improvement. But then how did you manage to set it in the first place?