@arafiq I had a big speaker, Thiel CS3.7’s, in my 12x11x9 office for close to 2 years. It was a fun challenge to make them work in this space. I used various combinations of the following to make it work,
GIK | Convolution filter on ROON | Rearranged furniture | A bookshelf with books behind speakers | Luck
It sounded good but constrained somewhat by the room. Though, I was enjoying it.
Two weeks ago, I moved the Thiel CS3.7’s to my Livingroom since it was finally safe from my son’s destruction to do so. The speakers sounded so much better in this larger space. I actually sold the speakers a few days later because I knew I could get my end game speaker in there since the Thiels worked well. I sold it in 1 day after putting up ad.
I then put my 10-year-old KEF LS50’s + KEF KC62 sub into the small room. This room is treated with GIK panels. The sound was so much better than the Thiels in the office. Conversely, the Thiels was way better than the LS50 + KC62 in the larger Livingroom.
My takeaway was that you can make almost any speaker work in a small room but there is a penalty. With a smaller speaker in the same space there seems to be much less of a penalty. I am getting much greater enjoyment with the smaller speaker in this space. The LS50 does not seem constrained by the room, it seems to fill the room perfectly. I am not recommending the LS50, just a small speaker.
BTW - the Thiel and KEF drivers are similar in that the tweeter and midrange are in one driver unit. So, the dispersion should be similar (but different results in the same room).
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I am not sure if it was you that I said this too before, but another choice that is better than the 2 examples that I have mentioned in this post, is the new RAAL SR1a earphones with the RAAL VM-1a tube headphone amp. This is good as anything I have heard, anywhere. It also eliminates the room from the equation. I am listening to it as I write this, and this is end game sound.
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@arafiq ,
[please excuse my poor english]
- Dito
- Spendor S100R² (now "Classic 100", €11300/pair) could be considered, but, again, I think a M30.2 Anniversary, 2nd hand, is a better option given your context. Additionnally, the M30.2 are very linear (and deliver a little bit more energy in the treble than the M30.1 that I owned too). My current M30.2 Ann. retains all the musical virtues of the M30.1, but delivers more details and sound more "right".
- Spendor Classic 100 Stereophile measurements (will deliver more bass, but is less linear)
- Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary Stereophile measurements (will deliver less bass, but is more linear)
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@jjss49 The more I read your impressions of the Harbeth M40s, the more I feel that this should be my endgame speaker. By endgame, I don't mean the last speaker but one that you buy once and never sell.This is indeed high praise from someone who's been around and knows that they're talking about. Thanks for sharing!
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to @arafiq ’s last comment
i believe that as we stay immersed in this pursuit for some time, we each become conditioned to a certain type of sound, a style of presentation that sounds right to us
that is a good thing, as part of what is gained in this process is to develop clear bearings on what pleases us, what brings joy and comfort to us - at the start of the journey, it is a bit of a random walk, then over time, after hearing much music, live, and reproduced, in many many venues, we rule out what we don’t like and narrow the field repeatedly
i personally started with bbc monitors in the early 80’s, from rogers, chartwell, spendor and so on, big and small ... to this day, i set up my beloved pair of spendor sp1’s from 1989 and they just sound oh so right to me - other newer better speakers may sound different, and more impressive/better in some respects, but the sp1’s clarity, palpability, especially of the midrange, then how the upper and lower frequencies support and envelope those voices and central instruments, it is simply right to me... here, 40 years later, after travelling through quads, proacs, magnepans, jbl's, ohms, martin logans, vandys, thiels, jm labs, atc's, horn loaded, ribbons, open baffle, i come back to sp100 r2s and harbeth mon 40s... and that is a good thing, a really good thing, for me :) |
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I used 30.2 in a 12’ x 15’ x 10’ tall room with a REL t7x. I turned the room 90 degrees and went with the SHL5+/t7x with a big improvement and used quite a bit of GIK acoustic panels. I now have 40.2 and no longer need the sub. I understand this is just a study and a secondary system. My point is don’t forget a simple and relatively inexpensive subwoofer. The key is, if you like the house sound, you’re a Harbeth guy. I realize I’m a Harbeth guy and with the 40.2, I’m done. |
I actually don't have an issue with the treble to be honest ... yes, I know that's one of the things I mentioned earlier. I guess I'm just looking for a different experience ... either that, or I'm terribly confused, lol!
As @jjss49 mentioned, perhaps this is a case of not fully appreciating what I already have. But sometimes, there's only one way to find out. I'm going to compare the 30.1s with Fritz Carrera BE next week. Who knows, I might end up keeping the 30.1s after all. TBH, I'm really nitpicking at this point. Harbeth speaks to me in a way no other speaker has in the past .. at least so far. |
Beautiful room photos! Hmm, I guess if you’re not digging the treble then yeah it’s the tweeter/crossover, I’m afraid. I don't see how more Harbeths would really change that. |
@orfeo_monteverdi -- that's certainly very good advice. "Don't fix it if it ain't broken," as the saying goes. I'm going to give Fritz Carrera BE a try in the next week or so. I will be in a position to compare the Carrera and M30.1s side by side for a few weeks. It definitely has a tough act (M30.1s) to follow. Let the best speaker win!
If I do end up keeping my 30.1s, then I agree that the next logical step is 30.2. |
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Hi Arafiq
Ditto the addition of a quality sub(s) and Professional DSP as a great leap. TAS Andrew Quint on the Audiovector R1 Arrete's can be found online. A well executed Air-Motion Transformer tweeter two-way in a room your size could be one and done. What great low bass can do for the overall sound, ditto an extended top. DeVille and JanZen loudspeakers also come to mind if budget allows.
More Peace, Even Order harmonics, ALL! Pinthrift |
i think it is a good point made that if one is fundamentally not unhappy with a setup, or a set of speakers, it is often wise to stand pat, try to optimize placement or room acoustics
but part of the hobby is becoming too enamored with the gear itself, always curious to try to new (to us) and not appreciate what is in front of us at present -- i am as guilty or more guilty of this than most |
@arafiq If you like/love the 30.1s, I see little reason to go down the rabbit hole of finding replacements. Rather, I'd invest in acoustic treatment for your room. Have a look at GIK products; send them an email; they can recommend treatments to logically address the improvements you're seeking like treble response and imaging. These are massively affected by reflections from the walls and floors and ceilings. |
[please excuse my bad English][I read attentively your initial request, but I did not read all the member’s answers dut to lack of time]. Given your constraints, I think it is pretty simple: "I’m only looking to buy used and not spend much more than what I can sell the 30.1s for. And to be honest, I will only be switching for the sake of trying a new flavor. I really like the 30.1s and something tells me that I might come to regret the decision." - if the new ones MUST NOT be more expensive than the M30.1s => keep your M30.1s (moreover, you like them) - else, if the budget can grow a little => buy the M30.2 Anniversary 2nd hand. Terrific, but not easy to find 2nd hand. "So I won’t be able to buy something else, compare, and resell the one I don’t like as much"
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switching for the sake of trying
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=> M30.2 Anniversary are the less risky option. I think it is as simple as that. |
I'd say the IB, MB, etc. style lines probably the closest (not saying the same), followed by the Twenty line. To me the Fact and Twenty5 lines hewed much closer to the "modern" sound espoused by so many manufacturers these days. |
Audio Note speakers needs to be placed close to rear wall is a myth. That is Audio Note's way of projecting it. In fact it sounds wrong in the bass region when they place it in those corners. Just place it like a normal speaker and enjoy the speed and clarity it brings to the table. |
@twoleftears Unfortunately, I cannot recall the exact model. In your opinion, which PMC model is closer to the BBC sound from the likes of Harbeth, Spendor, Rogers, or Graham? |
@arafiq If they were in the Fact or Twenty5 lines, then I would not be in the least surprised. However, as I say, as with many companies (take Spendor's D line and the Classic line and SP before that) not all models have the same family resemblance. |
I forgot to add that the Proac model I listened to was the D2R, which I believe utilizes a ribbon tweeter. Not sure if that was contributing to the slightly forward nature of the sound. Has anyone compared it with the non-ribbon version? I’d love to know which one you preferred. |
Interesting discussion and great insights so far. I want to re-iterate the point that I don’t have a problem with my Harbeth M30.1s. I really love the speakers. No, seriously. To be honest, the only reason I’m exploring other options is to see what else is out there. It’s like trying different regional varieties of a particular dish you like. What I’m looking for are different interpretations of the so-called BBC sound, but without venturing too far from the intrinsic sound signature. And when I say ’different’ I don’t necessarily mean ’better’. All speakers mentioned in this thread are amazing. ’Better’ in this context is so subjective. Hope this makes sense :)
BTW, I listened to PMC speakers (floorstanders, but can’t remember the model) about 3-4 years ago, and I have to agree with @prof that it sounded very different than Harbeth, at least to my ears. I don’t really know what is an ’english sound signature’ per se. Perhaps, ’BBC sound signature’ is a better description for what we’re talking about here? Also, please note that I’m not suggesting that PMC is better than Harbeth or vice versa. After all, it is a matter of personal taste. But IMO, they’re definitely not catering to the same customer.
Now Audio Note AN/J is a great suggestion, thank you @pani . Unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of listening to an Audio Note speaker yet. They don’t seem to pop up in the U.S. used market that often. But based on what I’ve read, they do really well when placed closer to the front wall.
Proac Response D2 is also another contender that I might consider at some point in the future. It could have been the room or associated gear, but I felt that they were a little on the forward/bright side of the spectrum when I heard them last year. Now, I’m not suggesting Focal or KEF bright, but definitely more than Harbeth. This is not a deal breaker for me. In fact, this might very well be the ’interpretation’ I’m seeking after all :)
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@jjss49 Agree completely.
The point I was trying to make is that, like most other speaker companies, PMC's sound isn't monolithic over its different model lines or over time.
I think of "classic" PMC's as models like the IB1, IB2 and MB2. Then there is the Twenty series. And the Fact series. And the Twenty5 series. These all had internal "family" similarities of voicing, and were all different from one another. So as with most things, making generalizations about the "PMC sound" really doesn't hold up. |
It's a study system. Studies are for working. Music is in the background. Keep your Harbeths and spend the money on your main system where you do your listening. |
And then there´s the room, the placement of the speakers and the listening position which will actually decides how the speakers will sound....
Why not apply some pro dsp to the Harbeths. And add a small sub.
I would start there.
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just another data point, i had heard pmc speakers (modern looking floorstanders, 3 ways) model 526 i think it was, on a trip to london a few years back
they were driven by sugden solid state class a amplification, and my impression was that these speakers err on the side of speed and sparkle and impact, rather than warmth and ’musical’ tonality - as such my sense is that they are more alike the spendor d series than their classic series (which tends to bring voices and acoustic instruments forward with nuance and body)
this isn't to say you can't make a speaker like these, or focals, magicos etc etc, sound more warm and less 'hifi' with the correct ancillaries, but what i think @prof is talking about here is the more fundamental voicing of the speaker here, which i tend to agree with, as compared to harbeths, classic spendors, and so on |
Re PMC Fact speakers:
To me they were leaner and cooler, perhaps more neutral.
They aren’t more neutral - they are colored. This shows up in the measurements like I posted above. (And you can see the same coloration over and over in the consumer PMC models). I think a some people get fooled by the PMCs. They come from a company also known for making professional monitors, and the highs can seem detailed and precise, "like studio monitors" or something.But they are leaner in the midrange than is actually neutral. I don’t know how neutral their pro stuff might be, but for the consumer line it seems somebody at PMC decided the public wanted something different, more exciting vs accurate. |
As the owner of PMC's and Harbeth's I would say this.
As with other companies, different lines of speaker differ in voicing. The OB1 and other models of that generation, most of which sat on low stands, likely sounded different and closer to classic BBC profile. I haven't heard one. I own Twenty.24 speakers. I auditioned the Fact line at the same time, and didn't like them as much, although they were more expensive. To me they were leaner and cooler, perhaps more neutral. Then came the TwentyFive series (or however they write it) and my understanding is that that line is voiced closer to the Facts. So as with Spendor, if you want the classic sound you probably want to go back a few years. |
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A pair of ProAC D-30r would be an improvement.
Having a port on the bottom makes placement easier |
Tannoy Sterling GR. Not in your face, but proper grown up sound. Opens up a new era of dynamics and clarity compared to Harbeth 30.1.
Audio Note AN/J. Very open sound and more neutral than Harbeth. |
Completely disagree about the PMC speakers "keeping with english sound signature." That is if we presume that "magic full, flattering of the human voice and acoustic instruments" midrange that many find in the classic British speakers (Spendor, Harbeth etc). The PMCs are just the opposite: they have a "smile eq" built in to their frequency response, pretty much all the consumer models, including the twentyfives: https://www.hifinews.com/content/pmc-twenty526i-loudspeaker-lab-reportI auditioned a few PMC speakers including the fact 8s and they have a dip in the richness region leading them to sound thin and cool just where the classic British designs are warm and full. I found the PMC utterly anti-septic sounding. (And Kal Rubinson int the Stereophile review noticed a similar issue, which of course showed up in the measurements too). People can be lulled in to thinking they are getting a "British sound" just because a speaker may be British. It isn’t always the case. (Just like I’d say the new floor standing Spendors do not share the midrange character of the classic series). |
I’d say a used pmc twentyfive would expand the bass and play better soul and funk for you. Still keeping that english sound signature. |
Check the Spendor D7.2. Amazingly fast, clear speakers with a midrange worthy of Harbeth’s best. My listening sure disagreed with that. As a fan of the Spendor classic and Harbeth midrange I’d hoped the Spendor D speakers had some of the magic. I didn’t find anything spendor-like about it. Just a competent contemporary speaker like plenty of others, missing that special human organic midrange of the classic series. (In fact the Spendor D7 was the most disapointing speaker I auditioned in a long list). I vastly preferred my (at the time) Harbeth SuperHL5+ speakers over the Spendor Ds. Just giving an alternative take. |
If Rosso are that much better than these brands, let the free market speak for itself :) The free market often doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. If it always did, Bose wouldn’t sell nearly as many speakers and headphones as they do. The issue is that some companies are simply better at the marketing and distribution game. And these days it’s more difficult than ever to separate the chaff from the wheat. I haven’t heard any Rosso speakers but have heard plenty of Harbeths and other brands in that price range. As such, I wouldn’t be the least surprised if Rosso outperforms Harbeth on many audiophile metrics. Harbeths have great midrange, true, but other brands are their equal in that regard. This isn’t so much a dig on Harbeth, rather, it’s to say there are many excellent speakers out there that never get their time in the “limelight” for reasons outside of sound quality. Some if the best I’ve heard are rarely mentioned in forums. |
I’d be more than happy to accommodate. My reach out to you is simply knowing how close you are and the path you’ve been down. It is definitely worth an afternoon of your time, or anyone else’s who might be in the DFW area. |
What comes after Harbeth 30.1s?
40.1 |
@audiothesis -- I do not disagree with anything you said. I have never heard any Rosso products, and I know better to never comment on something I have no idea about. For all that I know, it might very well be better than Harbeth or Spendor when it comes to sound quality.
Please understand that my comment was specific to the ’perceived’ brand value in the used market. And I feel that speakers like Harbeth, Proac, and Spendor have earned their reputations over a long period of time with consistency and quality. If Rosso are that much better than these brands, let the free market speak for itself :)
Having said that, if you’re willing to setup Harbeth 30.1 and Rosso Pienza for a side-by-side comparison, I’m happy to come by and take a listen.
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certainly do not doubt that. me too! |
JM, you need to experience the series 2. The elevation Francesco made is nothing short of astounding. I had an Audioquest rep over yesterday and he was shocked by the Elba 2. He expressed that he had never heard a speaker sound anything like that near the price. I hope to see you in a few weeks!
arafiq, in six years I’ve had one customer ‘walk away’ from the brand. He went from $13.5k Rosso to $56k magico. We don’t even have product at that price point. My point is, it’s a brand that, if you hear it set up properly, customers simply don’t sell off. They do move up the line, but that is about the only time you’ll see a pre owned pair available. |
^ it’s a silly expensive hobby honestly. i just wanted to illustrate my experience with skip (he's a good one) and a home audition! i didn’t pull the trigger on any of them. not because they weren’t great but because none of it has the purity of a single driver and set amp at a fraction of the cost. to these ears anyways 😃 |
@jmolsberg -- I have no doubt that Rosso Pienza is a really good speaker. In an ideal world, we should be basing our purchase decisions on sound quality and value alone. But the truth is that many, if not all, audiophiles tend to change gear quite regularly for various reasons. This is where brand name recognition and resale value, whether justified or not, becomes important.
Knowing myself, I know that I will be itching to try something different (not necessarily better) in a year or two. What I do know is that if I buy used Harbeth, Proac, or Spendors, I will be able to sell them with minimal loss. To be honest, Rosso Florentino is an unknown quantity in this context. Again, please realize I’m not commenting on sound quality, which very well may be equal or better than Harbeth. But it’s resale potential is a big unknown, and that is an important criteria for me.
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@arafiq,
Until then, I will continue to enjoy the 30.1s.
M30.1s for a second system?
A wise decision.
You should count yourself fortunate; my current second system features a pair of plastic egg shaped Sony speakers!
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When I was figuring audio things out, Skip was kind enough to let me home addition 30.2, P3esr, and Rosso Pienza. Of the bunch, my favorite happened to be the Pienza. All have a really sweet top end but the Rosso has the lower end in spades. I really loved the little Harbeth though. With the right music (and it's lots) they are a gem. Can certainly see why there are a lot of Harbeth fans. Gotta have a proper listen to those Rosso for sure.
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Thanks for the great suggestions, everyone. To those suggesting M40.x, of course I'm aware that these are probably the endgame speakers for many, including myself. But please remember this is for my study, i.e. it is a secondary system for me with less budget allocation. I've tried the SHL5+ in my study and they simply don't work. So I don't see how 40s are going to work. Secondly, even if they did, I'm not going to spend a lot of money for the home office setup. I do plan to upgrade from SHL5+ to 40.x at some time in the future, but that's for my main system.
I also understand that to get 'better' sound, I probably need to move up the price bracket. But given that this is my secondary system, I'm not too keen on sinking too much $$ into it. I mean it's not like I'm dissatisfied with 30.1 in any way. It's a great speaker and suits my tastes in music quite well. I was really looking for a different flavor more than anything else really.
I will look more closely at Spendor but not going to rush my decision. If a used pair of Fritz Carrera Be were to pop up in the used market, I might give it a shot as well. Until then, I will continue to enjoy the 30.1s.
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I went from 30.1 to tannoy arden and my room is 7mx5m x3. 40m tall... Speakers 2m from back wall and 1.3 side... Golden rule but an idea might be something that works in the corner or an electrostatic if space and spousal happiness more important in the balance. |
spendor definitely overshot the mark with original d series, tweeters were simply too hot, and thus the .2 versions came to market soon thereafter... i have not heard the 7.2 nor 9.2 as yet, trust they are dialed down some to regain a more typical spendor tonal balance --- folks who want an inert, zippy 'ultra hifi' speaker like a top focal or magico, that's what they would buy
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Thanks OP for starting this thread. I pair a Pass INT-25 with the M30.1's and it's a great match. I've had the Harbeth's for a few years and recently have been thinking about "upgrading". Or just add a small subwoofer and be done with it. My listening space is about 13 x 17 x 8.
I might audition the M30.2 xd's at some point but I'm not in a rush. The 30.1's work really well for the acoustic / vocal music that I listen to that I thrive on. And work well at low volume which is important for me.
But those Spendor D7.2's look pretty nice. Pretty, pretty, pretty nice. |
Check the Spendor D7.2. Amazingly fast, clear speakers with a midrange worthy of Harbeth's best.
Bass that is quite special, exceeds any Harbeths I have heard or owned- no subwoofer required thanks to the transmission line port.
Ease of placement- close to walls is OK, very unfussy.
Imaging is possibly the best I have heard.
Efficiency seems higher than rated- they are very sensitive and have almost horn / HE speaker dynamics without the drawbacks. This will serve you well with a tube amp and your high ceilings.
Fantastic speakers- I owned the D7 and sold them for the Harbeth SHL5+. The Spendor beat the Harbeths in many areas including overall sound quality. |
Yes, well, I’m sure that it is also possible to sleep comfortably in the back of an SUV. But most wouldn’t be comfortable attempting to do so, and I rather doubt that any but a tiny percentage of M40.x users would be comfortable using them as near-field speakers in a very small room. |
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