Everything matters. With turntables its primarily speed stability and vibration control. With the tone arm its vibration control and preserving the delicate cartridge output signal. Either way because of the way the cartridge works any vibration at all is indistinguishable from the groove signal vibration and becomes a part of the signal. The perfect arm will be stiff, in order to preserve dynamics, and highly damped, in order to minimize harmonic vibrations smearing the signal.
The difference between arms is easy to hear. Improved dynamics and detail, greater instrumental character, on and on. But its due to a combination of things. Its bearing design, mount and arm tube materials, every single aspect of design and construction and materials really. An arm like my Origin Live Conqueror has a direct signal path. The phono leads are continuous without connections from the cartridge pins to the phono stage. Some other arms will have the leads terminate in RCA, you need an interconnect, which adds connections. And expense.
Some arms have VTA easily adjustable, some even on-the-fly (while playing). Precise VTA adjustment is crucial. Some arms make it a pain in the butt. Some make it all but impossible. Others make it a breeze.
Some arms just plain look nice. Some are a pleasure to use. These things matter. Don’t pretend they don’t! It hardly ever makes any sense to buy anything based on tech specs but you buy an arm that way I can just about guarantee you will regret it. I did. Bye-bye Graham. Love my Conqueror.
You will read tons of comments on this. You will learn next to nothing. Even from me. What you will learn from though, a lot, is if you fork over $40 and order a sheet of fo.Q tape off eBay. Then stick that stuff on your current turntable and arm. Don’t worry, it peels right off if you don’t want it. With this tape you will hear what I’m talking about. Basically for $40 you will begin to appreciate what is going on. And it will be money well spent because it will make what you already have sound so much better.
There’s other tweaks like this. Do them all now, learn, and it will help you appreciate and understand why its worth upgrading. Then when you do and move all this stuff over to the new rig, wow you will appreciate it all over again. |
Thanks, Chuck. I'm digesting all the information at the moment.
I replaced my ancient sumiko ft3 with a jelco 750 eb. One of the things I noticed after installing and calibrating was that I had to use a bit more volume with the jelco to get to the same levels as before with the sumiko. Why might this be? |
The arm itself has little effect on volume. That is almost entirely down to cartridge output. The arm does however have wiring, and connections, and those could produce a small effect. A bigger effect though might be vibration control. Remember the signal you get is the sum total of all the vibrations- stylus, cantilever, cartridge, headhshell, arm tube, bearings, mount, arm board, base, plinth, platter, motor- all of it. Its not just the record. Its all added together. The better arms of course add a whole lot less.
Now virtually all these vibrations that are added by the cheaper arm, they are there but at such a low level as to be inaudible. In other words you would never listen and go wow that vibration, it really bugs me, I need a better arm.
This is a huge mistake, yet people do it all the time. I don't need a conditioner my power is clean. I don't have a problem with this mess of tangled wires they sound just fine. On and on. Just because you don't hear a noise and go "Oh! There!" doesn't mean you don't have noise. It simply means the noise isn't distinct enough to be heard as noise.
So what happens instead, and what you could be hearing, is the Jelco is so much better it has dropped the noise floor to where you feel you need to turn the volume up a bit. Not saying that's what it is, just saying that's what it could be. Because it happens. Happens all the time.
Especially depending on how they achieve the better performance. There's a balance between stiffness, which preserves dynamics, and damping, which eliminates noise. Done together the music has even more presence and life and dynamics because the lower noise level has revealed more detail. But it can also be done with more damping, in which case it might still sound better but with not quite as much dynamism or life.
What makes it hard to know is going from one arm to another changes a whole bunch of things at once. Not as much as changing a turntable and arm and cartridge, but still a lot. That's why you can learn so much with tweaks like fo.Q tape. With that you are changing just one tiny little thing at a time. You can even control where and how much. You can if you want use just one inch and move it around listening and learning which areas have the greatest effect- those are the areas vibrating the most.
What you will learn by the way if you try this is the whole damn thing is vibrating like you can't believe! |
Very important to the overall sound. |
I agree with ebm - one of the biggest upgrades I have made was a great tonearm -
Basis Vector 4 for my Basis table.
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hi,
20-30% (at most), most important part is the turntable itself, a stable platform is the foundation. |
Tonearm must provide a stable platform for the cartridge to function optimally. The corollary is that specific tonearm/cart combo matters greatly for sound quality. Cartridge compliance specs help determine tonearm mass needed for good performance. Mass and rigidity are two key attributes. In general you want to optimize the electric signal transfer from the stylus as it modulates while tracking the record groove. Tonearm provides the platform for the stylus to move and perform that function accurately. |
I have a version of damping tape on the drivers in my Spatials. Their previous owner put it on and said it really helped control the sound. I took his word for it. A few more things: - I'm going to re-drill my armboard; I'm off by 3.5mm on my Feickert and when I used Stevenson alignment, I feel the connector wires from the head shell to the cartridge are too smushed together.
- I conducted a decibel test using the Ultimate Analogue Test LP left and right azimuth and found that my right speaker tests about 10 decibels higher than my left. Yet when playing Dire Straits' BIA 45 reissue and comparing with with the SACD, the instruments were in their correct channels and had comparable loudness levels. Waddup with that? I plan on swapping tubes on my Pathos tonight to see if that's the culprit.
Btw - everyone's advice and straightforward info is much appreciated. |
Waddup with that? People gonna flip out Simao but I will tell you waddup widdat: azimuth is one of the biggest waste of time specs in all of turntable setup. I have yet to meet anyone who thinks its important who even knows what it is. What I mean is they say they know, but then they get it wrong. If you want to really know go to YouTube or Soundsmith and let Peter Ledermann explain it to you. He totally nails it. As you would expect. The #1 thing to keep in mind with everything having to do with turntable/arm/cartridge setup is all the specs, all the alignment, VTF, VTA, all of it, is intended to get you in the ballpark. Well except for overhang. That one you want to nail. All the rest you fine tune by ear. Azimuth does matter, and Ledermann explains beautifully why. But if you listen carefully you will understand just how complicated it is and why it is that you can measure so bad yet sound so good. What you hear always- always- takes precedence over what you measure. And now if someone who thinks azimuth is so important will please explain what it is and why it matters and get it right we will have a first for this website. |
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++millercarbon
Wow! He covered everything! A REALLY important consideration is Cartridge Compliance and the Tonearm choice that MC mentioned above. A rigid arm requires a compliant cartridge! Much more than 10. The more the better if using a stiff arm! And Vice-versa with a compliant arm. An MC cartridge won’t do that without spending a million $. They do cost more for a reason. They sound better, whether choosing MC or MM/MI.
You can join vinylengine.com and see a graph that compares compliance of the cartridge and the rigidity of the arm, together. Additionally there is a really elaborate [sic. accurate] calculation that will help you calculate it more accurately than that graph, somewhere on the Internet.
Again, listen to what Mr Lederman has to say!
Bent |
Without one the sound is very attenuated. |
Read most of this and have a question. Back in the "old days" there were controversies regarding detachable heads and fixed heads. The Shure (SME) 3009 had detachable heads and others had fixed heads.
I remember many articles that preferred the fixed heads for many reasons. (The detachable ones were much easier when changing cartridges, as I remember!) Has this changed with today's arms?
Back then, Linn Sondek had the better belt-drive tables and Technics came out with direct drive and everyone was crazy over that technology for a while.
Since I still have both types of tables from back then, I was wondering what today's world finds most accurate in drive types for tables, and which arms are considered to be the most accurate (fixed vs detachable)?
Cheers! |
Maybe the proper question is what does a turntable contribute to the sound of a tone arm?
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In a perfect world a tone arm contributes nothing to the sound. It just allows the cartridge to track the record and convert mechanical squiggles into electrical impulses. Practically it adds distortions. The better ones add less than the mediocre ones. |
I still don't understand the fascination of using vinyl. Unless people love the sound of noise caused by tracking on a groove. Noting like the sound of noise when hearing music. Streaming music is now the future. Quit buying expensive records and turn tables and realize your turntable is headed for the museum. You don't see phonographs anymore. Who wants to get off the sofa, take a vinyl record off the turntable, find a new one to listen to it, clean the record and get another record started when you can sit on your seat and select a huge selection of music by using your cell phone to do so. The money you spend on a turntable and records could be spent on upgrading your speakers and amplifiers. |
Larry, Larry, Larry. You must be a millennial.
I say spend as much as you can on vinyl playback and upgrade your amp and speakers too! 😉 |
@larry5729. Nice ironic post illustrating the short-sightedness and lack of audio depth of much of the younger population. You perfectly illustrated how a certain segment of the listening population just isn't deep enough to appreciate vinyl. Well done.
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Don’t get sidetracked into a Vinyl vs Digital vs Tape debate... that was not the OP ?
actually you can pick a low resonance arm/cartridge system ( and they are indeed a system and yes compliance and mass matter ) by listening with no volume....
Great bearings that last and stay great for the lifecycle of the arm are imo essential.
OP that FT-3 is no slouch, let me know IF it needs a home. On a SOTA Sapphire it can be formidable, but that’s another thread.., |
@tomic601 Yes, the FT-3 was a great tonearm. I just wanted something different. PM me if you'd like to make an offer and I can give you details and pictures.
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The best demonstration of how important a tonearm is in musical presentation was recently demonstrated to me when I acquired a TT capable of having dual tonearms mounted simultaneously . I moved what I knew to be a very good arm to the new table and it already had a current top of the line one from the same manufacturer. Each arm’s individual strengths became noticeable as i rotated my Ortofon, Kiseki, and Koetsu cartridges between them. No matter the cartridge the better arm created a better presentation of the musical experience. |
Drrsutliff, exactly my point.
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So those of you with the ethos on this: I have the Jelco 750EB coupled with a Hana SL cartridge. Compliance complementary?
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@larry5729, you have never heard a great vinyl system. I have a very nice high end table and arm it is silent and the music just flows. I am not going to try and change your mind but you are the one missing out.
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Hi,
LP's and R2R still rule, and yes getting up from your sofa is a sign of being alive otherwise we end up like humans in Wally. |
@simao
"So those of you with the ethos on this: I have the Jelco 750EB coupled with a Hana SL cartridge. Compliance complementary?"
It is borderline. Light cartridge and medium compliance.
The Jelco 750 series, however, offer quite a bit of flexibility due to the
fluid damping. I use an even more compliant cartridge (an Accuphase AC2)
on my 750D using the fluid damping and it sounds very good.
I would definitely use the fluid damping on your Jelco if you are not
already.
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Fluid damping causes all kinds of problems of it's own. The solution is worse than the cure.
I went from various iterations of the original SME 3009 arm to various VPI arms including two of their 3D arms to my current two arms, Reed 3P's.
I have had 9", 10.5, and 12. Steel, alloy, carbon, plastic (VPI 3D, call it "composite" if you like, it's junk IMHO), and now one Reed is 12" cocobolo and one is 10.5 in ebony.
Just my opinion and experience-everything about the arm makes a difference. How it is tightened, how the vertical and horizontal motion is designed, the materials, the length and materials used for the armwand, shell, clips, wiring, hell, even the mounting and armboard materials have an effect on overall sound.
Many of these things are not worth sweating about and some are. But they all have an effect on the overall sound.
I use the same old analogy often but it is a good one. A pro can take a better photo with his phone than you can with a 10K Nikon set up. But that doesn't mean that the 10K Nikon set up is not worth the money in the right hands. Likewise, you can get great sound from a modest set-up if you set it up optimally. But..... |
@hdm Thanks for the feedback. I have indeed damped the tonearm according to its specs, starting with two drops in the well so it's just under halfway.
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@simao look at the Jelco 850. Big upgrade.
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Larry needs to gain some experience and knowledge before comparing a high end vinyl rig and quality acetate to the sound of a telephone. That’s like comparing Lawrence Olivier to Popeye, or Raquel Welch to Phyllis Diller. |
Vinyl just has that tubey magic, well that’s what the guy @ better records proclaims! Lol...I love my vinyl and my many lp’s and phonographs...and you will have to tear them all from my dead cold hands! Streaming is for the lazy...jmo...its fun for discovering etc. But when I’m serious, its vinyl. Right now, I’m liking my pro-ject 9 inch carbon fiber/aluminum sandwiched tonearm with tpe damped counterweight on my classic sb table with a Hana EL moving coil, it sounds great with very little noise...put on the right record and its heaven...even though it’s not comparable to some other's mega buck analog rigs, to me, for now, it sounds divine. Not to mention, the classic is a joy to look at and use. |
Right arm makes big difference I upgraded to dynavector 507 mk2 on my avid Acutus and wow , if I could afford to get higher end equipment I could go for it without hesitation , because for sure It will sound better and you can definitely hear it .
btw digital is like a kiss trough the glass compared to vinyl 😎 |
I went from various iterations of the original SME 3009 arm to various VPI arms including two of their 3D arms to my current two arms, Reed 3P's.
I have had 9", 10.5, and 12. Steel, alloy, carbon, plastic (VPI 3D, call it "composite" if you like, it's junk IMHO), and now one Reed is 12" cocobolo and one is 10.5 in ebony.
@fsonicsmith welcome to the club, i have the same Reed 3p Cocobolo "12 :)) Wonderful modern High-End tonearm. I've met people from Reed in Vilnius, Lithuania to get my sample. It's definitely a top quality tonearm. Then i went to vintage route and it's an interesting journey with tonearms like FR-64fx and 64s, Lustere GTS-801, Technics EPA-100 MK2, Ikeda IT-345 |
With the new Jelco, I now have not one, not two, but six signal interfaces between the cartridge and the speakers: - cartridge to headshell/arm
- headshell/arm to Premiere Interface DIN (little box on the back of the VPI - which I desperately want to get rid of)
- Premier Interface DIN to RCA
- RCA to phono pre
- Phono pre to amp
- Amp to speakers
Is this normal? |
Pretty much and if everything is of decent quality it should be fine, don't fret about it.
Now some will say that your losing tons of signal if your leads from the cartridge to the preamp are not one continuous lead but I say BS.
Any decent connection will have such a small loss to be unnoticeable. It takes special test gear to measure the resistance between good connectors, normal test meters won't pick it up.
So sit back and enjoy the music.
BillWojo
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It takes special test gear to measure the resistance between good connectors, normal test meters won't pick it up.
Do we have to go down that well-worn rutted road again?
@fsonicsmith welcome to the club, i have the same Reed 3p Cocobolo "12 :)) Wonderful modern High-End tonearm. I've met people from Reed in Vilnius, Lithuania to get my sample. It's definitely a top quality tonearm. Then i went to vintage route and it's an interesting journey with tonearms like FR-64fx and 64s, Lustere GTS-801, Technics EPA-100 MK2, Ikeda IT-345
It was you Chakster who caused me to look into Reed. |
@fsonicsmith Wait - I'm curious. What well-worn, rutted road?
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@fsonicsmith Wait - I'm curious. What well-worn, rutted road?
With the new Jelco, I now have not one, not two, but six signal interfaces between the cartridge and the speakers:- cartridge to headshell/arm
- headshell/arm to Premiere Interface DIN (little box on the back of the VPI - which I desperately want to get rid of)
- Premier Interface DIN to RCA
- RCA to phono pre
- Phono pre to amp
- Amp to speakers
Is this normal?
Well. let me set you at ease first. You need not worry about 5 and 6 because they are higher level signals. It is the low level signal that is most subject to being degraded by connections along the way. Ideally, the cartridge would come with integral wiring from cartridge to phono stage input or to go to the even more absurd (and nearly impossible) the cartridge would be hardwired to the circuitry of the phono stage. Connections = convenience. A removable headshell is chief among them. Is it worth sweating about? Absolutely not. Only at the Mike Fremer level or the Whats Best Forum level do the connections likely make an audible difference. This is just one man's opinion-my own. My "problem" is with a reference to testing. The argument that if it can't be measured it does not count is as old as rocks and persuading the camp that adhere to that argument that they are misguided is like trying to move the Rock of Gibraltar. And yes, I agree that the VPI junction box is something to "desperately want to get rid of". I hated how it got in the way of trying to use the conventional anti-skate mechanism. Hell, I hated everything about it. |
@fsonicsmith Cool. Thanks for the clarification. Another thing I've often wondered is how good the tiny wires connecting the cartridge to the tonearm are. With all the fuss and expense about IC's and speaker cables, are these overlooked?
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@fsonicsmith Cool. Thanks for the clarification. Another thing I've often wondered is how good the tiny wires connecting the cartridge to the tonearm are. With all the fuss and expense about IC's and speaker cables, are these overlooked?
There is really not that much mystery involved with tonearm wire. The same concept applies-basic tonearm wire is fine with basic gear and as you go up the chain, the quality of the tonearm wire makes a subtle difference and improvement. Btw, "tiny" is endemic to tonearm wire due to the very low level signal. All that said, I am a true believer in FireWire AG, a wire that is manufactured in Germany by
Stereo-Lux Musikanlagen. Something has to account for the amazingly transparent sound I am getting with my Reed arms and Reed uses this wire. It is incredibly pliable as opposed to being stiff, with a very soft clear rubber-like insulator. The clips are unusually nicely machined, they just exude quality from end to end. |
The wire is probably fine, but Reed tonearms have a lot more going for them besides good wire. Otherwise, we could all buy FireWire and use it to re-wire some el cheapo tonearm. (Another owner of a Reed tonearm with cryo-treated FireWire here.)
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lewm7,760 posts04-28-2020 5:00pmThe wire is probably fine, but Reed tonearms have a lot more going for them besides good wire. Otherwise, we could all buy FireWire and use it to re-wire some el cheapo tonearm. (Another owner of a Reed tonearm with cryo-treated FireWire here.)
I could not agree more. |
I have a Sumiko Premier MMT on an Oracle Alexandria MK3 (the black one for those who are unfamiliar.) I love the table; but it's a PIA to change tonearms and there are only so many that can be applied without buying new suspension springs from Oracle. $$$$$
The MMT is the better of the two arms I've had on it; the other being an Audioquest PT6, both manufactured by Jelco.
I have not been able to disabuse myself of wondering if another tonearm on the same table with the same cartridges would be a cost effective upgrade, even though I am pushing 68 and my hearing is pretty much tuned into a comfort zone. My favorite cartridges are in this order at this time: Audio Technica AT33/PTG/2, Hana SL, Denon DL-301 II, and SHURE V15 with a Jico SAS stylus.
Does anyone have a strong recommendation for a tonearm that would offer a significant improvement in SQ (I value detail and spatial imaging; but not at the cost of true-to-life experience, not 'warmer' than live) at a reasonable cost; maybe 2 to 3 times that of an MMT? It would ideally be close to the same weight to balance the suspension, and the same pivot to spindle distance (or close; I have a spare armboard) to make it practical.
I am NOT trying to Shanghai the OP's thread. I think any replies would be of interest to all involved. |
"Maybe the proper question is what does a turntable contribute to the sound of a tone arm?"
Yup, that sounds about right.
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Turntable supports the record, the tonearm serves the cartridge.Some cartridge makers even suggest using a particular type of tonearm - sometimes due to mass or pivot type.High end MC cartridges will need an excellent arm to deliver all of what they're capable of. I recommend buying the best cartridge you can afford and buying an arm and table that is suitable to deliver the goods.Most people want to spend the money on a table because $10,000 tables are more fun to look at and interact with than $10,000 cartridges.The cartridge is the transducer turning mechanical energy into electrical energy. The arm is well, an appendage. It needs to be good enough to let the cartridge do its thing!
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@2channel8 The Jelco 850 and JAC501 cable will do what you are looking for. It is a very good arm. George Merrill has the best price.
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I agree with Simio and FsonicSmith above - I had a VPI Traveller turntable for a while and it was the 2nd Worse TT I've owned out of dozens. The worst was Nottingham Horizon which had a motor that caused vibrations on the tonearm so bad you could feel it.
After just a few days with the VPI Traveller, I lost a channel. I first suspected a cartridge lead - those were all okay. Then I checked the phono preamp tubes - all good there. I finally figured out that the phono box in the back of the Traveller had a loose connection.
I removed the two wood screws holding in the panel and I was so disappointed to see such a poor and flimsy soldering job. And this turntable is called the Traveller? The phono leads on my Rega RP10 are integrated and it sounds great to me. I don't get the point of removable cables on budget decks anyway. Besides, who's going to get a better deal on high quality cable, say from Cardas, a factory who buys in bulk or Vinyl Joe?
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If the Jelco dropped the noise floor, you should most likely have to turn the volume down, not up. |
@slaw I was wondering the same thing
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@noromance ,
Thanks for your reply. |
