Wow!! you're fast on the trigger. I know you think you're the Gila Monster of pseudo skeptics but I'm of the opinion you're only a Pekinese.
What is wrong with audiophiles?
Something that has happened countless times happened again last night. Ordinary people over for a party listening to some music easily hear things audiophiles argue endlessly don't even exist. Oh, its worse even than that- they not only easily hear but are stunned and amazed at what they hear. Its absolutely clearly obvious this is not anything they ever were expecting, not anything they can explain- and also is not anything they can deny. Because its so freaking obvious! Happens every time. Then I come on here and read one after another not only saying its impossible, but actually ridiculing people for the audacity of reporting on the existence of reality.
What is wrong with audiophiles?
Okay, concrete examples. Easy demos done last night. Cable Elevators, little ceramic insulators, raise cables off the floor. There's four holding each speaker cable up off the floor. Removed them one by one while playing music. Then replaced them. Music playing the whole time. First one came out, instant the cable goes on the floor the guy in the sweet spot says, "OH! WTF!?!?!"
Yeah. Just one. One by one, sound stage just collapses. Put em back, image depth returns.
Another one? Okay.
Element CTS cables have Active Shielding, another easy demo. Unplug, plug back in. Only takes a few seconds. Tuning bullets. Same thing. These are all very easy to demo while the music is playing without interruption. This kills like I don' know how many birds with one stone. Auditory memory? Zero. Change happens real time. Double blind? What could be more double blind than you don't know? Because nobody, not me, not the listener, not one single person in the room, knows exactly when to expect to hear a change- or what change to expect, or even if there would be any change to hear at all. Heck, even I have never sat there while someone did this so even I did not know it was possible to hear just one, or that the change would happen not when the Cable Elevator was removed but when the cable went down on the floor.
We're talking real experience here people. No armchair theorizing. What real people really hear in real time playing real music in a real room.
I could go on. People who get the point will get the point. People who ridicule- ALWAYS without ever bothering to try and hear for themselves!- will continue to hate and argue.
What is wrong with audiophiles?
Something almost all audiophiles insist on, its like Dogma 101, you absolutely always must play the same "revealing" track over and over again. Well, I never do this. Used to. Realized pretty quickly though just how boring it is. Ask yourself, which is easier to concentrate on- something new and interesting? Or something repetitive and boring? You know the answer. Its silly even to argue. Every single person in my experience hears just fine without boring them to tears playing the same thing over and over again. Only audiophiles subject themselves to such counterproductive tedium.
What is wrong with audiophiles????
What is wrong with audiophiles?
Okay, concrete examples. Easy demos done last night. Cable Elevators, little ceramic insulators, raise cables off the floor. There's four holding each speaker cable up off the floor. Removed them one by one while playing music. Then replaced them. Music playing the whole time. First one came out, instant the cable goes on the floor the guy in the sweet spot says, "OH! WTF!?!?!"
Yeah. Just one. One by one, sound stage just collapses. Put em back, image depth returns.
Another one? Okay.
Element CTS cables have Active Shielding, another easy demo. Unplug, plug back in. Only takes a few seconds. Tuning bullets. Same thing. These are all very easy to demo while the music is playing without interruption. This kills like I don' know how many birds with one stone. Auditory memory? Zero. Change happens real time. Double blind? What could be more double blind than you don't know? Because nobody, not me, not the listener, not one single person in the room, knows exactly when to expect to hear a change- or what change to expect, or even if there would be any change to hear at all. Heck, even I have never sat there while someone did this so even I did not know it was possible to hear just one, or that the change would happen not when the Cable Elevator was removed but when the cable went down on the floor.
We're talking real experience here people. No armchair theorizing. What real people really hear in real time playing real music in a real room.
I could go on. People who get the point will get the point. People who ridicule- ALWAYS without ever bothering to try and hear for themselves!- will continue to hate and argue.
What is wrong with audiophiles?
Something almost all audiophiles insist on, its like Dogma 101, you absolutely always must play the same "revealing" track over and over again. Well, I never do this. Used to. Realized pretty quickly though just how boring it is. Ask yourself, which is easier to concentrate on- something new and interesting? Or something repetitive and boring? You know the answer. Its silly even to argue. Every single person in my experience hears just fine without boring them to tears playing the same thing over and over again. Only audiophiles subject themselves to such counterproductive tedium.
What is wrong with audiophiles????
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Recap: People come to your home to socialize and listen to music. Audiophile removes speaker wires from cute little trestles, then changes cables, point out minor differences no one cares about. It sounded fine. He continues to try to educate guests, guests who were enjoying the music and camaraderie, who suddenly look baffled and say, "WTF, Nerd!". |
This discussion is interesting but quite unimportant. Really, ladies and gentlemen, who cares what others (audiophiles or not) think about your system or the effectiveness of its components and accessories? Just enjoy YOUR system and the music, and purchase components and accessories that make YOU happy😊! |
People come to your home to socialize and listen to music. Audiophile removes speaker wires from cute little trestles, then changes cables, point out minor differences no one cares about. It sounded fine. He continues to try to educate guests, guests who were enjoying the music and camaraderie, who suddenly look baffled and say, "WTF, Nerd!". Well, no, actually not even close. What happens is when people hear music like never before they always are stunned and want to know why and how is this possible. Normal people, I mean. Which is the subject of the thread, demonstrated now almost minute by minute, how horribly un-normal and wrong audiophiles are. So anyway the normal people see and hear and ask questions. Always. Which I answer. One of the more common answers being its not the speakers, or the amp, or even the turntable, its everything all together and especially all these seemingly tiny little details. Which I point out. This all usually happens in the time after one cut and while I'm getting another one ready. The only time I ever swapped cables it was when Caelin was there. And sorry but you'll just have to dream and imagine what its like having the CEO and cable designer who founded Shunyata Research over because that just ain't ever happening. To you. So eat your heart out. You're not worthy, and you can get up off the floor. Try real hard to think like a normal person for like one micro-second. Are you gonna tell Caelin, "Sorry, I know you brought your new cables and all but I got friends so stuff em back in the fancy plush bag and lets all listen to Billy Joel?" I don't think so. Honestly, it doesn't matter what I say, one of you morons will latch on like a leech to the least salient aspect and suck for all you're worth. Pathetic. But to wrap up, nobody is subjected to anything. I never play the same thing twice, that's for noobs and rubes, and with things like Cable Elevators the music isn't even interrupted at all. Which you would know, if you actually read for comprehension instead of for snide comment ideas. What is wrong with audiophiles? You guys are. |
It’s rather cute how you think most audiophiles would consider it "special" to have the CEO of an audio cable company over or that they would be envious, whether Shunyata, or SR, Nordost, or ... well any of them. There are literally 1000’s of people I would be more interested to have over, and if we are talking audio, Floyd Toole, Nelson Pass would be far higher on the list. My friends are pretty amazed by how my system sounds too. Can’t say any of them ever asked "how", the only exception being how there is so much bass from relatively small speakers ... and then only because the subs are not obvious. |
@millercarbon: you keep addressing to "audiophiles". Please realize that what you are talking to, and debating with, are not audiophiles. They are anti-audiophiles. They are in a mission. I know. As previously stated this is trolling on a Trumpian scale. Maybe its the to them unrecognizable adjective that let that one sail right over their heads. Like Drax in Guardians, "Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast. I would catch it." Then each and every one of them gets served a Michelin Three Star plate of Crow, to which they are as oblivious as Jake and Elwood having a food fight, "The little girl! How much for the little girl!" Only thing, Drax, Jake, and Elwood, they all have a sense of humor. Only thing these guys have a sense of is- well, nothing. Not one single thing. At this point there's really only two things left to say. That I can think of for now anyway. And if I may suspend trolling operations for a moment, there really are some here who are genuine audiophiles in the truest sense of the word. Duke, Tim, Frank, David, Michael, and a few more I'm sorry to say aren't coming to mind right now. You know who you are. These guys are all audiophiles in the truest sense of the word because of the way they listen, think, analyze, and always seek both to learn, and to share what they have learned. They are also way more kind and tolerant of, let me just say the full spectrum. I've learned a lot from all of them, and really appreciate it. Unfortunately they are a tiny minority. Which on the one hand is to be expected. In any field only a tiny minority ever reaches anywhere near the top of the heap. But that's not what I mean. Its not simply a question of competence or knowledge. Nor is it anything to do with money or systems or anything like that. The problem is like that guy said in the recent article, coming off like a snide know-it-all engineer. Putting one-upmanship on a pedestal while showing music a cold shoulder. At least for the time of this thread they are drawn like flies to road-kill. Another one destined to sail right over their heads. Oh well. More time they spend insulting each other here the less they have to pollute the other threads. |
I'm pretty sure those are my anti-customers. But thanks anyway. 🤑 Every crowd has a silver lining. - Old tweak-maker axiom Without blanket product promotion something terrible happens. Nothing. How do I feel to have to come here? Does it help to have someone to talk to? I think I felt better when I was locked up in the hospital. 🤡 |
Are you gonna tell Caelin, "Sorry, I know you brought your new cables and all but I got friends so stuff em back in the fancy plush bag and lets all listen to Billy Joel?"Not to judge, but at the party I throw, he would forget that he brought anything with him. I am sure he is a nice guy and I even have a pair of Shunyata cables, but bringing cables to a party of any kind is a bit.... At the same time, what do you think would happen if someone brought Billy Joel to your party? Reality check. |
LOL this continues to be the most ironic thread going. The OP has created a thread to denigrate other audiophiles, complains about any pushback in the most dramatic and insulting manner, and tells us what “normal” people do all the while acting like the perfect caricature of an audiophile. Pro tip: using cable risers, demoing that kind of thing to guests, explaining how every little bit of equipment matters, and having the president of a cable company bringing his cables over is not what “normal people” do. That’s pretty much exactly the type of thing normal people don’t do and a classic audiophile would do. Now, there is nothing wrong with that. But the lack of self awareness in the ongoing rants is something to behold. Its ok millercarbon, really, people can practice this hobby any way they want to. No need to keep denigrating and insulting those who don’t meet your standards. But if it’s truly impossible for you to stop carrying on in such a monumentally judgemental fashion, well, you might want to grow a thicker skin for it. Wait, let me do this for you: “anyone disagreeing with my rant is just another one of those problem audiophiles!” |
(...I think some of the forums need a .jpg just beneath the opening statement by {any} OP....just Because...) WARNING This thread may contain issues and commentary that are subject to vigorous debate among the contributors. Many of these comments, and the subject matter in debate, may remain unresolvable despite the best efforts of the parties involved. Enter at your own risk. |
This is all just an obvious case of mistaken indignity. Have you seen what it’s like out there? Do you ever actually leave the house? Everybody just yells and screams at each other. Nobody’s civil anymore! Doesn’t anybody think what it’s like to be the other guy? They don’t. They think we’ll just sit down and take it like good little boys! That we won’t werewolf and go wild! 🤡 |
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—- Question: When do you know you’ve become an audiophile? Answer: When you no longer listen to music you like, rather music that sounds the best on your system. ——————- I think thats true to an extent. Not that audiphiles “don’t really listen to and enjoy music” but rather, putting on music you don’t care for to use it to listen to the audio gear is the type of thing an audiophile would do. I’ve certainly done that before, and more often in my earlier days as an audiophile (extremely rare now). On the other hand, many of us have come to actually like music we otherwise would have passed over, due to how our systems aided that discovery. |
@geoffkait I can agree with that last rant to some degree..it does seem like there's a lot of souls out on a limb with a saw of late. Yeah, I know...to some I may qualify for that fate as well. *shrug* "If there be 'personal hells', we all must live within them. Mine may be no better nor worse than that of others." Thanks, Spock. Your character is likely quoting some literary giant, but the gist of it remains.... How one conceives of and approaches this 'indulgence' into audio rapture and response varies as much as we do. Similarities, but no 2 alike. We cling to it like Linus to his blanket, and there's a comfort within that as well. And when threatened with our blankie being tossed into the wash 'n dry... Panic/pause/Response... ...and Conflict. ;) |
Perhaps the guests of the OP were treading on egg shells as they were warned as to OP's delicate sensibilities in the matters of HiFi and whichcraft. When the first cable was removed from the 'Cable Elevator' the guest was forewarned by the signal of another guest that the above act has been done and with perfect timing (Prat) the guest exclaims
"OH! WTF!?!?!" This reaction massages the OP's ego perfectly and sound diplomacy is preserved...! |
And sorry but you’ll just have to dream and imagine what its like having the CEO and cable designer who founded Shunyata Research over because that just ain’t ever happening. To you. So eat your heart out. ^^^^ That is one of the most hilariously "only-an-audiophile-could-have-dreamed-of-writing-it" statements I’ve ever seen on an audio forum. Pure gold. I can only think of a zillion people I’d rather have over than the founder of an AC power cable company. In millercarbon’s weird world, lack of interest in such high end audio tweakery apparently make ME the "audiophile." I’m sure the first thing on non-audiophile guest’s minds are: "This sounds good, but can we hear your system without cable risers? Ok, but we need to hear it now without the magic bullets. Oh, what about the cable with the active shielding. Can you demo that for us? Please?" This was clearly an audiophile unable to contain himself from wanting to demonstrate audiophile-geek tweaks to non-audiophiles. If you want to talk about "what’s wrong with audiophiles...." Yeesh. That’s just one step above loose-fitting jeans and an obsession with playing Buddy Guy. I’ve had many non-audiophile guests who have loved listening to music on my system. And yes they are often stunned at hearing sound like they’ve never heard. But I sure as hell don’t start boring them to tears with audiophile geekery because I’ve got their rapt attention and I need my own obsessiveness validated. "Ok, but did you know the sound changes if I switch amps? Or if I switch impedance settings on my cartridge, or switch cartridges? Or if I tweak this or that? Sit there, I’ll demo this for you!" That’s not for THEM. That’s for YOU to feel validated in your own audio-geekery. That’s just cringe-worthy stuff. |
What is wrong with Audiophiles? Many things. First, there are advocates of MQA, which is a hoax format developed by Meridian (UK) because the company has accrued a debt of 48,0000GBP over the last couple of years. In rigorous listening tests, listeners could not discern between MQA and redbook PCM. MQA didn't sound any better than PCM. Second, Audiophiles that hold DSD in high esteem. whether it's DSD128 or DSD 256 or the sampling rate of 11.2Mhz, DSD has a dynamic range of only 6dB(!), uses noise-shaping to move the "hash" to the ultrasonic region, and thus achieve a poor S/N ratio. Third, advocates of hi-res files like 24bit/384Khz are wrong; in the first place, these are bandwidth hoggers, and second, they sound WORSE than redbook 16bit/44.1Khz. Not to mention Audiophiles who invest plenty of money on uber-expensive interconnects, speaker cables, "high-grade" power cables, and power conditioners. Last week, I visited a hi-fi exhibition in Israel. There were two very impressive rooms, YG acoustics with an all NAGRA amplification and A Focal room (Sorry, I forgot the amplification used in that room). To cut a long story short, the speaker cables in the YG room cost EUR70,000, and so did the speaker cables in the Focal room. This is ridiculous; you can buy a BMW or a Merc AMG or a Porsche for that kind of money. I suggest you read posts by a chap named Mark Waldarp; He explains the futility of investing such a preposterous amount on speaker cables, interconnects, "hi-grade" power cables, and power conditioners; do yourself a favor and read his posts, or better yet, buy his book about sound theory; you won't be disappointed. Mark is an extremely knowledgable audiophile, and he knows what he is talking about. The book is only $40; a well-spent investment. |
Well most of your post I agree with your comment about DSD and 6db is founded in a lack of understanding of noise shaping. What we don’t understand we often assume is bad whether there is real evidence of it or not. Your comment about high res/high bandwidth is not founded nor completely unfounded. Higher resolution is never bad. You made a false claim. Higher bandwidth can cause speaker resonances that modulate to audible frequencies. |
Yuvalg9 I suggest you read posts by a chap named Mark Waldarp; He explains the futility of investing such a preposterous amount on speaker cables, interconnects, "hi-grade" power cables, and power conditioners; do yourself a favor and read his posts, or better yet, buy his book about sound theory; you won’t be disappointed. Mark is an extremely knowledgable audiophile, and he knows what he is talking about. The book is only $40; a well-spent investment. >>>>>Actually, his name is Mark Waldrep...Dr. Mark Waldrep. I ran across this tidbit of Dr. Waldrep’s whilst cruising the ‘net a moment ago, “A couple of weeks ago I wrote an article about an event that reported on some of the nonsense demos that happen at trade shows (you can visit the article by clicking here ). I deliberately avoided naming the salesperson who demonstrated the "benefits" of expensive — very expensive — power cords and the name of his company out of respect for the hosts. His demo produced audible/measurable increases in the amplitude of identical music selections. A result that is impossible according to the laws of physics. Electrical engineers and those with even a casual knowledge of how electrical circuits and power supplies work know that a heavy twisted cable worth thousands of dollars cannot — and should not — increase the plus and minus voltages needed by the various circuits in the equipment in question.” Gosh, can Dr, Waldrep be one of those Cargo Cultists I described earlier today? Well, shut my mouth and call me cornpone! Stay tuned to this channel, gentle readers. 🤗 |
atdavidVendors unfortunately do do this, play with levels at trade shows. I caught a vendor of conditioner products doing this recently in Toronto. He thought I was just amazed at the difference ... Nope, I was measuring the levels. >>>>Uh, were you wearing your propeller hat? Did you demand controlled blind testing? Did you accuse them of doing do do? 🤗 |
yuvalg9, I have to agree with you on all those hoaxes regarding "high resolution". Nothing sounds better than a song you like played on a middle wave radio with short wave coming close second, depending on reception quality. There is something to it. It moves. Unfortunately, with decline of radio programming and barely existent middle wave in some parts of the world, DSD will have to suffice for now. I am serious. |
glupson, Nothing sounds better than a song you like played on a middle wave radio with short wave coming close second, depending on reception quality. There is something to it. It moves. There is a sense in which I agree. Though I would add listening to music on FM radio to that mix. First, for me and many, listening to the radio happens most often while driving, and driving/listening to music seems to be a perfect mix of activities - one seems to elevate the other. Other reasons that I like hearing a song I love on the radio are: 1. There is an element of surprise, luck. It's not like these days where anyone can play DJ and dial up whatever song she wants. If the radio is your medium, you have to rely on whatever the station plays and when a song comes up that you like there is that added joy of fortuitousness "I love this song!" *turns up radio.* 2. The shared listening aspect. There is first of all something more "live" about a song played on the radio insofar as it's a stream "happening out there" that you are just grabbing, which is happening "out there" external to your own ability to control it. And that this stream is being accessed at the same time by some other portion of the public. I don't need to see everyone else in their cars (or wherever) listening; simply the nature of the medium and the knowledge that it's a shared public experience gives radio listening a bit of "life energy/social weight" that just playing a CD, or dialing up your own playlist, doesn't quite have. Not that everyone does or should feel the same, but that's how I experience listening to the radio. (Which is a lot less fun these days given I care less and less for popular music). |
prof, I have been wondering for the longest time, why some song I know really well sounds much more exciting on the radio then when I play a CD. These days, it would have to be FM but I gave up on current radio programming at about the time I bought Sansui TU-717. Now, I own a pretty (to me) machine of no use. The only radio I listen to these days, and that is most of my listening time, is from the Internet and from far away place(s). It still feels like "radio". I never listen to radio while driving. I may be a minority, I know. You might have really started unraveling it for me with "element of surprise" comment. Maybe, something that will "escape" or "here now, gone in a minute" excitement. I really do not know. Speaking in audiogon terms, it cannot be "natural", "sound quality", etc. I draw a parallel to new clothes. Everybody has a different and positive feeling when wearing new clothes. It does not seem that there should be any reason for it, but it does happen.
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rvpiano ... I agree with everything you said there, RV. Question: Shouldn't the goals of a dedicated audiophile be to advance his/her system to the point where SQ is no longer a noticeable issue, to the point where it becomes the recreation of the actual event ... or as close to it as possible? I'm sure working on it ... Frank |
To reach the heart of music sometimes a high end sound can help...I listen now to Haydn quatuors, which I never listen to in the last years because the sound was acidic in my audio system and these works were never in my top list of first choice listening preference to begins with, like Bach or Scriabin for example... Guess what? For the last months, I reach my audiophile goal, with my homemade room treatment, and low cost homemade tweaks, and now I not only like Haydn quatuors but I love them , because the acidic sound is no more, and the holographic imaging and separation makes me able to go with the musicians individuals instruments playing and forget the sound... Labelling people " audiophile" with contempt, because we are scientist or musician or any other qualifications, is childish and superficial thinking...Each one of us is unique and different with his own history...My best to all brothers... |