take a look at Nola KO; I drive them with tubes and solid state; they never let me down. |
"01-19-15: Souljasmooth
I don't understand how a thread about looking for "end of game" speakers up to $10K turned into buying the Vapor Audio Breeze?"
I agree with you 100% |
Interesting about the used Vapors having cosmetic issues... Were they due to manufacturing or careless transport by fed ex or owners? The ones I saw at the shows were flawless.
I always look at the guts of the speaker. The drivers used, the crossovers, how solid the cabinets are. I think that Vapor uses top notch components that are also found in other speakers costing much more.
For me personally, spending $10k on speakers would involve me doing a month or two or research. I imagine there would be many many options out there.
I must say again though that if I had a large enough room, a pair of Nimbus would be on the short list.
There is a pair of Paradigm Tributes local to me for $3700. Pair them with a 2 JL subs and that might be the ticket for me.
There would be quite a few choices and options I would consider |
Ahem!
Vapor audio!
$10,000.00
Rest of the Agon community is sitting still jaded? Or they just not interested input?!
Just saying, there are a Truck load of choices out there, FYI some with the right mind(s), names at this level is irrelevant, but VAPOUR?!, things went down for this company a month ago, now this?.
Any small time manufacturer heading this direction (all well come) need to have research and developent straight, and put forth. Just having the best components in a flashy box will be less less attractive, at least to a enlightneded few. There has to be door stoppers for small scale manufacturers, otherwise a lot of people will be dissatisfied.
Ok now waiting for 5 people to commit hara-kiri in the name of Vapour!! |
@Deadlyvj What things went down for Vapor a month ago? Please enlighten us. |
What about Wavetouch Audio? |
Nothing against Wavetouch or Vapor, but in general, with vendors that have not been around for long and with lesser known products, its hard to say if their products are "end game" or not. Time usually tells what works best. It's a riskier proposition in general. That's not to say the risk may not pay off. But for $10000, why take a risk? Especially if you are not able to hear before having to commit. |
wavetouch has a 40 day in home. |
You could order in Wavetouch and all of the speakers below, then select a winner!!
Fluance-30 Day Risk Free in Home Trial - Fluance.com
Aperion Audio: Best Home Audio Systems | Surround Sound ...
www.aperionaudio.com/ 60-day risk free in-home
Sanders Sound Systems - Sanders 30 Day In-Home Trial
sanderssoundsystems.com/sanders-30-day-in-home-trial
45 Day In-Home Audition - SVS
www.svsound.com/45-day-free-trial
JansZen Electrostatic Speakers
www.janszenloudspeaker.com/
30 Day Trial with Satisfaction Guarantee on direct purchases
If you do that please post the results.
Best of luck in your search. |
Jughead did you take a look at the Nola Ko's? |
There's a pair of Sonus Faber Elipsa's up for sale on this site now. It's hard to do better than those for $10K. |
In home trial is what you want. You might have to pay return shipping but that should be the only real risk if legit.
OR buy used and do not overpay and then resell and move on as needed for another way to try in home with less risk. For large expensive gear, look for good used options that have all the potential shipping issues covered. I like to wait for a local seller and pick up myself whenever possible, especially for larger heavy expensive gear like $10K speakers. |
I agree, and wavetouch audio does offer a 40 day in home trial, I just have to pay return shipping. The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them. what's to lose? nothing since there is a in home trial. 2k is far from 10k but who knows what they sound like? they might go toe to toe with speakers 2 to three times their cost. |
"The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them."
lol. |
JUg, I have never heard either VApor or Wavetouch and have no experience with either's customer service so both are unknowns to me.
Obviously most vendors will say their stuff is best. They might even believe it. Its what you think and their willingness to do what they can to make you a happy customer that matters. Track records matter. |
Yep like I said they offer a 40 day in home trial, and I understand the audio world is like everything else with the offer of snake oil. if someone says their speaker is better than what I have and back it, there is no harm in taking a listen. |
I just found a seller a few hours away from me looking to sell some VA Acoustics Beethoven concert grand's in mint cond for 2k and I have a buyer for my Mozarts who will give 1k. I'm going to jump all over this! |
Go for it Jug... Talk about a bargain... Vienna Speakers are uberperformers even if you got them new at full price... Beethoven Grands for $2K are total no brainers... They will take what Mozarts are good for and multiply it by 5! Let us know how things go.
G. |
Yeah how can I pass it up? I know what VA's sound like, and I don't know if the Beethoven Grand will sound any different than the Mozart's. but there will be more of it! if all goes well and my speakers sell ill get the Beethoven's for 1k plus the time and gas of a 4hr round trip drive. |
Yep. Hard to beat finding a bargain price on a great speaker AND being able to sell your current one right away.
Several years ago I scored on a new (floor model) pair of Mirage M5si's on closeout at half price ($1K). I was able to turn around and sell my ADS L1090 ii's immediately for $675. Out of pocket for a dramatic upgrade to a $2K speaker: $325.
I still have those Mirages. They're the L-R anchors of my 7.2 HT system. |
Hey Jh,
Of the 40 days offered by WT you'll not need the remaining 39 days and 20 hrs.
The Mozarts would be destroyed tonally, harmonically and dynamically (especially by the GT SE's)... in every way.
The three areas that would be of concern to me with the Beethoven's also are the limited bandwidth (ultra sonics matter), lowish efficiency for a 4 ohm speaker (the higher the efficiency when driving a 4 ohm load the easier the amp works which produces a more relaxed, effortless sound... especially when pushed). Leading to the third issue with VA Beethoven's... that is common knowledge that when you push VA hard they crumble.
As I've said, great specs don't guarantee great sound but without great specs the potential isn't there.
GT's go out beyond 27K, efficiency @ 94db...
Also, anybody that tries to challenge Wavetouch Audio's INTEGRITY and credibility (zd542 "lol") is baseless...and meaningless to this or any other thread. Look at the "reviews" page on his website and be overwhelmed by the many grateful and satisfied customers. And when you're done there after many hours check his feedback on this website. |
Jughead, I'm betting you'll flip over Wavetouch. I certainly did! |
Ah, I see now, the Concert Grands should be great, too, and at a very nice price! Good luck! Let us know how that turns out. Regards. John |
Mirage shouldn't have discontinued the M series. They were great speakers. |
I thought this thread was about spending $10K for speakers? Why are you even considering spending a fraction of that for what is mostly a sideways purchase? I have nothing against VA's. I think the VA's are a reasonable value for what they do... with the exception of their flagship model... which is very compelling to me. It has a high frequency extension out to 100K... now that's better... and it sells for $27000.00... and this quote was from a review of "The Music" that perfectly describes one aspect of my personal experience with the latest GT's "While working on a variety of projects and wandering around my listening room, I was continually and abruptly surprised by the many quick transients and vocal inflections that poured out from the systemeven at low to medium volume levels. I could be sitting at my desk off to the side or sitting in my prime listening positionmusic quality was superb at both."
Also, I do understand why Ryan at Vapor doesn't offer a trial period. Even his smaller speakers are not lightweights. When an audiophile has a budget of $10K and thoroughly investigates the veracity of Wavetouch Audio and their grateful, elated customers, taking the generous 40 day Wavetouch offer becomes not only a no-brainer but will likely also become the next chapter in their audiophile journey.
Cheers |
VA Beethoven's or wavetouch? |
Haven't heard the Beethovens myself. But, the reasons I think you'll love the GT's (Gen. 2 or SE) are because the entire presentation is uncommonly uncompromised, i.e. there seems to be no significant gaps or holes within it. (My quickie review here). They are neutrally transparent and will pass on whatever your components are doing exceptionally well.
The 2 drivers are well matched in that the woofer's phase response is mild and smooth and it hands over to a tweeter's phase response that is quite literally "ruler flat" over the entire operating range of the tweeter (you can find the response graphs of the tweeter at Dayton Audio's website). And some listening time will reveal that the very minimalist crossovers and the Mihorns are, in all likelihood, doing very little indeed to interfere with that unusually good, combined phase response. That results in a strikingly stable, complete, unperturbed and perfectly symmetrical soundstage. Simply not the norm, IME. The Mihorns can also easily be used to create a rather vividly 3D central image as well. Excellent spatial qualities.
I won't get into the details about "how" right now, but the Mihorns tend to "speed up" the sound of everything upstream from them. By that I mean that I'm using some amps at the moment that don't exactly have "HiFi pedigree" written all over them, yet the subjective sensation of system speed is as though I'd spent much more coin on them than I did...I'm still running some experiments along those lines, but I may be able to draw a conclusion or two about how they manage that trick a little later on. If your components are already top notch in that regard, then the Mihorns possibly may not accelerate much beyond a certain point, but, that they do so at all, I've found to be rather unique, so far, IME. Maybe other horns are known to do this??
But, tonally, harmonically and texturally revealing?? Oh yeah!! In spades. And very dynamic.
Look at it this way. They are very small and not only easy to place in the room, but easy and inexpensive to return if you don't like...but, I'll bet you won't return, at all.
Oh, I'll continue to listen to other speakers whenever I get the chance, just out of curiosity, but, even though I'm using a good pair of subs with them that only helps to seal it for me, I already know these are the last speakers I'll ever need to buy, period.
Can't really speak directly to the Beethovens (After_hrs may well be right about them), but I'll throw in my recommendation for the GT's, along with him, without reservation! |
I own the Nimbus White following my review at Dagogo.com. Feel free to read the article and contact me with questions.
You can see how I addressed the current complaints about Vapor in the thread "Vapor Sound Audio/Tons of Value for $$$$" |
I suppose I could also add additional information for the OP in regards to other speakers to consider. I think the Legacy Audio Focus SE would be a fine selection as well as the Kingsound Prince III, if you're looking for a planar speaker. I have reviewed both companies.
If you wish a concentric design, Tannoy makes some higher efficiency speakers with appeal though I haven't heard the newer, smaller form towers, and with the Salk Exotica 3 like what I heard from the Alnico drive (Salk also reviewed; earlier model).
Magnepan and Vandersteen are always compelling choices for the price, however, if possible one should audition any of these mentioned above as they all carry quite different house sounds. |
I recently heard the VA Liszt speakers driven by Ayre AX5 and they were spectacularly good. Possibly the best sound I've heard. Drove them loud with Mahler and Sibelius and they completely maintained their composure. At $13K they're obviously over budget.
The brand new VA Beethoven Concert Grand Symphony Edition is supposed to share not a little with the Liszts. Can't say whether this is true, or how much of a step-up the Symphony Edition is over previous iterations of the BCG. |
Ivan, regarding your comment on speeding things up relative to component quality. The tonality of the current GT products are as spot on as anything out there. I was able to take my $10-15k (prototype) amplifier and connect it to a pair of $35K speakers a few days ago... that were not at all as tonally correct as the GT's. (As it is the company's brand new, recently released model I won't share which one it was at this time, but will down the road... I'm helping to voice it further.) I can see that if it were just the wave guide without the center phase unit timing would be an issue. But as it is, the GT's simply convey the most uncompressed, liquid and super detail picture into what their sent... with ZERO emphasis. I think I know what your trying to explain. It's just a highly articulate...but completely NATURAL, relaxed sound... |
Twoleftears,
The Liszt w/ AX5 sounds like a happily ever after pairing...beautiful. The higher bandwidth of both is an essential element not common with less expensive gear. Which was part of my concern with BCG's and their limited dynamic capabilities...in absolute terms.
Without the possibility of extending harmonics well out of the typical "audibility band", the possibility for un-strained, believable dynamics that holds the sonic picture together under load will be compromised. Which drives a key element again with the GT's which have an even higher frequency extension than the Listz. |
After_hrs, Yes, you are quite correct, of course...did not mean to cloud the issue. The GT's are utterly tonally correct. I didn't mean to imply that the speed the GT's have was somehow less than ideal, or at the expense of something else (just that it was for me a unique experience) - they simply speed things up in the very best sense, there's just no downside to that at all, very natural and relaxed, like you say...z-e-r-o tonal emphasis, indeed, is what I'm hearing! |
I think I'm going to give wavetouch gt se a try, with the 40 day in home trial it is a no brainer. how well do you guys think they'll do with my Parasound a21 and p5? and Marantz sa 8001 sacd? |
I think they will sound fine with the equipment you have, but will just be a sideways move.
When you really get down to it, if you like fooling around with equipment, do you really want to get to an "end of game" speaker?
I think I am there, in that I do not plan to upgrade my speakers any further, but occasionally I still have lust in my heart for other speakers, so who knows? I may buy another pair of speakers after all.
I hope your Wavetouch works out for you, but keep having fun changing equipment as long as you are enjoying it.
Best Regards,
Jim Perry |
Jh,
I've heard GT's driven by very expensive amps and good quality budget amps to expected results. Your amp is right in middle and if everything is doing their job properly you're in for a real treat. Your amp's specs are exceptional! FR out to 100k, the damping factor is a little scary, wow...overkill isn't always a good thing, but if it has no peaks your good. Low resistance cables won't be an issue for you, but always good to have super low capacitance cables as well. My choice for mid price reference cables is Zentara reference, extremely open and tonally correct letting all the harmonic info through with spectacular spacial and dynamic capabilities. Perfect, reasonably price partner for the GT's. |
"Also, anybody that tries to challenge Wavetouch Audio's INTEGRITY and credibility (zd542 "lol") is baseless...and meaningless to this or any other thread. Look at the "reviews" page on his website and be overwhelmed by the many grateful and satisfied customers. And when you're done there after many hours check his feedback on this website.
After_hrs (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Well, I seem to have struck a nerve. lol. You must have something to do with the company since you're so quick to get defensive about someone elses integrity. lol. But I will say that its rare to have a manufacturers web site, full of reviews and comments from satisfied customers. lol. Looks like you're guaranteed to get the best possible results. lol.
Jughead,
Just in case you are wondering, my lol comment was just that. The way you worded your post was funny, I couldn't help but laugh. It had nothing at all to do with the company, but don't tell that to After_hrs or he'll be up all night typing. lol. |
Jughead, I think the Parasound would be a good match, since the GT's are so efficient it may seem like more power than you need, but it means you'll likely be doing much of your listening in class A territory...unless you really want to crank them...which they will easily do...! |
Zd542,
I happily stand up for good people who are deserving... The owner of Wavetouch is such a person.
"The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them."
lol.
This is a pointless and valueless comment.
Reading anything you've written here is a waste of time...
Do you have anything technical to add or a recommendation that might be applicable here? |
Where do you get beethoven grands for 2k? An inquiring mind wants to know. Thanks |
The Beethoven's are on ebay and have been for a while, and the price is actually 2750, local pickup only up near Chicago. Not sure why seller wont ship? he has all original boxes. |
The Beethoven Concert Grands have been around since 2005. To my knowledge they're passed through three "versions" over these ten years. You gotta wonder how old the ones on ebay are. |
Thanks Jughead and Twoleftears |
"01-26-15: Ivan_nosnibor
Haven't heard the Beethovens myself. But, the reasons I think you'll love the GT's (Gen. 2 or SE) are because the entire presentation is uncommonly uncompromised, i.e. there seems to be no significant gaps or holes within it. (My quickie review here). They are neutrally transparent and will pass on whatever your components are doing exceptionally well.
The 2 drivers are well matched in that the woofer's phase response is mild and smooth and it hands over to a tweeter's phase response that is quite literally "ruler flat" over the entire operating range of the tweeter (you can find the response graphs of the tweeter at Dayton Audio's website). And some listening time will reveal that the very minimalist crossovers and the Mihorns are, in all likelihood, doing very little indeed to interfere with that unusually good, combined phase response. That results in a strikingly stable, complete, unperturbed and perfectly symmetrical soundstage. Simply not the norm, IME. The Mihorns can also easily be used to create a rather vividly 3D central image as well. Excellent spatial qualities.
I won't get into the details about "how" right now, but the Mihorns tend to "speed up" the sound of everything upstream from them. By that I mean that I'm using some amps at the moment that don't exactly have "HiFi pedigree" written all over them, yet the subjective sensation of system speed is as though I'd spent much more coin on them than I did...I'm still running some experiments along those lines, but I may be able to draw a conclusion or two about how they manage that trick a little later on. If your components are already top notch in that regard, then the Mihorns possibly may not accelerate much beyond a certain point, but, that they do so at all, I've found to be rather unique, so far, IME. Maybe other horns are known to do this??
But, tonally, harmonically and texturally revealing?? Oh yeah!! In spades. And very dynamic.
Look at it this way. They are very small and not only easy to place in the room, but easy and inexpensive to return if you don't like...but, I'll bet you won't return, at all.
Oh, I'll continue to listen to other speakers whenever I get the chance, just out of curiosity, but, even though I'm using a good pair of subs with them that only helps to seal it for me, I already know these are the last speakers I'll ever need to buy, period.
Can't really speak directly to the Beethovens (After_hrs may well be right about them), but I'll throw in my recommendation for the GT's, along with him, without reservation!
Ivan_nosnibor (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Truthfully, I feel as if there've been too many threads lately in which Wavetouch all of a sudden assumes high prominence, with a few posters offering sales pitches that sound like, well, sales pitches.
Look, I'll sound off on speakers that sound awesome, but I'm not going to proselytize about them to the extent that I come across as a shill for the product. You don't have to own my set of speakers to make me feel validated.
And, as several posters have pointed out, if the OP has $10K to spend, then he or she should spend that $10K on well-reviewed, peer-vetted speakers that have more to them than a webpage of buyer feedback and a few minor reviews.
Again, I imagine Wavetouch are quality products and that their designer is a passionate and devoted craftsman and technician, but the way these things are being trumpeted, you'd think they're the second coming of hi-end audio.
I mean, really? They best Avantegarde or Kharma Ceramique? They blow Wilsons out of the water?
If I'm going to spend $10K on "end-game" speakers, they're not going to be little Baltic birch monitors with an unproven track record. |
Yamaha Soavo ns-f901's $$$ if your looking for some {TAD R-1's} killers!!!... and Vivid Audio Giya G3's if your looking for some of the best speakers money can buy...at any price!!... |
Hey Simoa,
"Truthfully, I feel as if there've been too many threads lately in which Wavetouch all of a sudden assumes high prominence, with a few posters offering sales pitches that sound like, well, sales pitches."
I only jumped onto this thread a couple of days ago after several other posters brought up GT's and the OP was considering spending less.
"Again, I imagine Wavetouch are quality products and that their designer is a passionate and devoted craftsman and technician, but the way these things are being trumpeted, you'd think they're the second coming of hi-end audio."
That's funny, their definitely not the second coming...Yep, I agree it may be a bit over the top at times, but totally truthful! It's our way of giving back I suppose. Not a new story...small company, no advertising budget, growing track record, a kind, innovative, passionate owner, and an enthusiastic, growing gallery of BELIEVERS.... sorry S, there I go again
"I mean, really? They best Avantegarde or Kharma Ceramique? They blow Wilsons out of the water?"
Totally agree... |
Simao, Yep, I know, I may well sound a little Too enthusiastic at times, and I apologize if I come off as schill (not really my intention though). But, I've been as motivated to find end-game speakers as some of the others here, it's just that I haven't had $10k to throw at these days. Because of that I've had to be willing to do some things I might not otherwise would've considered doing before. Spending more, buying used I had pretty much exhausted beforehand. So I looked at trying to identify up-and-coming trends or "breakthrough" products before everyone else did...even though that plainly meant I would just have to roll the dice and see for myself. But, in this case it worked out better than I was hoping for...just nothing at all to give buyer's remorse (or buyer's remorse return in the case of the GT's). That I suspect may not be the usual result for this kind of strategy, but, as I say, this is a case where the risk was justified for me. That may make me one of the few who have tried it and realized for themselves what the value of the GT's are...and it's quite high, higher, I believe, than most of the "excellent values" out there. What can I say? Value is value and when I see something in audio that stands head and shoulders above the rest I say something about it..even when the track record is not there. If you want a big gain for little money in this hobby you very often have to be prepared to not do the traditional things. |
Hrs,
Yours was a temperate and moderated response. I wasn;t targeting you, per se; simply the over-the-top championing as of late in a few threads here on Agon of Wavetouch.
I've spoken and wwritten with Alex about his speakers and though I'm not ready to let my de Capo BE's go (and may never be), Alex came across as a generally nice and thoughtful man who was a comfortable blend of salesman and audiophile.
Still, if someone's asking where he can spend his $10K, I'm going to try to see that he gets his money worth -- all $10K of it. |
I'm also surprised no one has mentioned Devore speakers. The O93 and O96 are Stereophile Class A speakers and are reference for a few Stereophile and Absolute Sound reviewers. For $10K, you could get a beautiful new set of the O96's and be happy until your hearing goes. |
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